Students and Bodies Tracked Via RFID Tags 437
AT writes "The Brittan School District in Sutter County, California, is requiring students to carry RFID-tagged identity badges on them at all times. Readers are currently installed at the doors to all classrooms. Readers were removed from bathrooms when parents protested. The school district is meeting next week to consider parents objections to the system." Relatedly (but not), Leilah writes "The University of California is considering using RFID tags or bar codes to help track their collection of bodies and parts. They are attempting to reopen their body donation program which has been on hold since spring 2004 due to disappearing parts - they've previously had legal trouble over improper disposal as well."
About damn time (Score:5, Insightful)
Total Law Enforcement rules. And the trains run on time, too!
This won't work (Score:4, Insightful)
It was the last period of the day, and an extremely easy class. So despite there being the full list of students, the classroom was basically empty.
So, how long do you think it will be until students just give their badges to their friends?
Electronically tracking students? (Score:2, Insightful)
Most schools I've seen use paper attendance sheets; keep a paper copy of your schedule (ie. where you SHOULD be during that time period) and require a written record if you leave a class for any reason and also your destination--bathroom included.
I fail to see the difference here, let alone how it's somehow an invasion of privacy.
unbelieveably trolly and flamebaity. (Score:1, Insightful)
Society, as a whole, needs to tell these swine that if you have that many children and that young of an age, you are the scum of the Earth and the planet would be better off without you.
don't dare speak for me (society) with hateful shit like that.
"They envy us our freedom" (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't envy this kind of freedom....
All times? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like fun to carry.
which then is translated into the student's name by software contained in a handheld device used by teachers to check attendance.
I can see it now: "Hey, Mikey - take my badge and scan it for English class, or I'm gonna beat you up with it!"
Bueller... Bueller... Bueller...
Bah. (Score:2, Insightful)
Not a big deal. (Score:4, Insightful)
This just doesn't seem like a big deal. Rather than wasting class time doing roll-call, they automate it so that as soon as you walk into the class, you're counted as present. This will help parents and school officials know that students are not missing and are where they should be. Maybe they'll even implement full blown java cards to ensure that only the AV-club students can access the AV room, only faculty can access the faculty lounge and so on. Even better would be requiring the use of a java card to gain access to the school at all. Swipe the card to get in the front door. No more lunatics wandering the halls.
Oh, and most adults have to use these cards in the real world, too. The only difference is that we have to swipe our cards and that swipe usually ends up in a database, logging the time, door and building we entered. The only difference here is that the RFID readers in the door eliminate the need to swipe the card.
I also don't see the big deal with tagging body parts like this. It enforced accountability and I'm pretty sure dead people or someone who no longer has that arm attached to them doesn't much care what happens to it - tagged or not.
Also, any remotely intelligent kid will just wrap the card with a couple layers of tin foil, stick it in their lunch box, etc.
Like I said, I'm a really skeptical person when it comes to RFIDs. I hate the idea of tagging, tracking and cataloging EVERYTHING under the sun. But these two cited implementations seem entirely reasonable.
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I'm totally for having to government replace parents and personal responsibility in general, too. I just don't know where I'd be today if I hadn't had Big Brother watching every move I made while I was in school.
It's amazing how quickly we've transformed from a country which at least claimed to value freedom, civil liberties and self-determination into one which pleads for the government to come in and run our lives, isn't it?
Re:Electronically tracking students? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parents that either don't care about their child's education, or ones that think their child is immune to the rules or does no wrong are the real problem with the school system.
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Insightful)
If people don't do what is right, then they are to blame, not their parents, not their teachers, not society. If we are to get anywhere as a species, everyone has to be held accountable and responsible for themselves.
Yes, I realize this could be devastating to the law profession, which feeds mainly upon people holding other people responsible for their own foolish actions or lack of common sense.
The biggest danger is mindset (Score:5, Insightful)
However....
The thing about this that really freaks me out is that it might give us a group of future voters who view this level of tracking as "the way things are". I'm someone who considers the Patriot act to be a dangerous step in the direction of Nazi Germany. However, I think that a group of kids just graduating from a school where they wore, essentially, tracking beacons for four year will think that the Patriot Act is downright lax.
You make a good point (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.seniormag.com/headlines/blackboxcars
Re:About damn time (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:About damn time (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I'm saying having the government watch every last movement I make is the absolute antithesis of the American way of life.
Maybe you went to school in a prison? (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, how hard is it for a dumbfuck teacher to notice when a kid is missing 2-3 days a week? It is not like we're talking university-style auditoriums of hundreds of students.. a typical HS class side is only 30-45 kids.
Is there really a *need* to automate this? Seems like a waste of money more than anything else. If I was a parent this would be my protest angle - get the teachers in line.
Re:a rant.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Also the badges contain name and age (grade) of the kids. If the kids forget to remove them after they leave the grounds then this is a threat to their safety.
So: No parental input.
A corperation testing a system on unconsenting individuals*
A potential threat to the children's safty
This does not seem like its the parents not working with the system, more like the system is not working with the parents.
Can you give me a reason this level of tracking is needed?
Can you give me a justification for the schools approach to the matter?
*Since they are children gaurdian's consent should be needed.
Re:About damn time (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, because opponents of total law enforcement are always supporters of total anarchy.
Re:Electronically tracking students? (Score:5, Insightful)
The only motivation for this is surveillance for the sake of surveillance: to spy on students in forums where the school knows it would not normally have the right to spy on them. (I am reminded of how I, as a non-USAian, have to provide the FBI with my photo and fingerprints every time I enter the US. That isn't to catch crooks or terrorists: it's surveillance for the sake of surveillance.)
Oh, and by the way, we have always been at war with Eurasia.
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
Why not? There's hardly an expectation of privacy, and hard-enforced speed limits would force the populace and the government to come to a real agreement on speeding.
. Oh, and we'll need to inspect it twice a year for illegal modifications to your ride.
Twice is a bit much. How about once? (looks out window, sees annual inspection stickers on EVERY car.)
BTW, the cops'll be around next Tuesday to check your house for illegal cable.
Here, we have an expectation of privacy. OTOH, if the cable guy wants to come over and check his wiring, he's more than welcome to. He could even ask the cops to do so, checking the wiring on the OUTSIDE of my house.
And here, you need to install this program to check for illegal MP3s or movies on your computer.
Wouldn't work. Better to just install sniffers on the ISPs that checks for that kind of traffic. An immediate "explain this activity or we shut you off" message would keep everyone straight. Or they'd just go to a different service.
And you'll be registering all your guns once a year so the government can keep track of where they are...
Damn straight. While tyrany can only be answered by revolution, revolution is still war, and it can be easily avoided if the populace is not only very well armed, but the government knows exactly how armed its population is.
Taxing those guns, hell no. Paying for the inspection, hell no. But telling the government that you do in fact own twenty rifles and help train your friends in civil insurgency? Sure. It'll keep them honest.
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Insightful)
My mother was single.
I don't steal cars and, as yet, I've not had children that I can't support. I'm three units away from a university degree, I work part time as a software engineer and I do a lot of contract work on the side.
And in my opinion, the education system will never teach anybody who doesn't want to learn: whether they have good familes or bad families, it all comes down to the individual.
Honestly, you bitch and bitch like you know what you're talking about.
You don't, it shows: families aren't perfect. You're obviously not in such a situation, so for fuck's sake stop moaning like you're somehow better than these women. You're not. It's not up to you to judge moral values.
People make mistakes. Life goes on.
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
I am not opposed to the automated attendance and student tracking within the schools. I am sorry but this could speed things up.
The problem is that it leaves too much room for the students to abuse the system, as another poster said it wouldn't be hard for a student to carry anothers ID in their pocket.
@Birth (Score:3, Insightful)
"Its for the children"
My kid would be home schooled if our system here tried this garbage.
Re:this is great. (Score:2, Insightful)
Cross references of all this data via identity is RFID's most frightening "promise." All the arguments had in recent years about privacy are exponentially more critical; already, we are awash in more publically available data about ourselves than we can individually manage. We need tools as individuals being tracked, to manage access to data which identifies us.
Is anyone in the U.S. Congress close enough to technical to understand, to defend individuals from exploitation? Who there can swim in the deep end RFID is pulling us out into? Most /.ers are probably
too young to run for office [senate.gov].
BG
Re:Electronically tracking students? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a basic human system. Students in high school are becoming adults. As such, they need to be given some freedom, and shown that they can go outside the lines a bit as long as it isn't excessive, and still be ok. The world is not out to get them, but if they completely disregard the rules, then they will be in trouble.
This system changes that. Now anytime you step outside the lines, it can be tracked, every story checked. You, from day 1 entering the school, are treated as if you are guilty. Now we are saying to students who enter the schoool: "we know you're gonna screw up, and we want to be able to prove it when you do."
Re:About damn time (Score:4, Insightful)
Terrorist! Off you go to Guantanamo Bay - no, leave those rights at home, you won't need them.
Re:a rant.... (Score:2, Insightful)
What privacy is there in school? How many dark corners are there that students should be allowed into with no one knowing? Schools try to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen. So how do the RFID id's violate privacy any more than a teacher at the hall corners with a notebook watching when and where students go?
The better question is how will the school keep one student from carrying around another students' id.
Re:This won't work (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah but turn this around. Let's say the student loses his name tag and some other kids find it. Those kids enter some unauthorized area and cause damage. I guarantee you the school will come looking for the student. When he/she says he lost his ID card, they'll just suspend him for not having his ID card. They might do that on top of holding him accountable for breaking stuff.
Basically, you're shifting the burden of proof onto the accused - guilty until proven innocent. Very bad move! It's no wonder kids don't understand their constitutional rights when we treat them like cattle.
Oh, and in regards to your original statement, the school won't even check the records until something happens. It won't prevent anything except make it easier for the school to point and say "You broke the rules here, here, and here." Most of the rules broken are usually asinine in the first place, and no reasonable person would follow them. In doing this, the school also violates the right of every single other student following the rules.
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
Tinfoil obviously rots the brain... (Score:3, Insightful)
Nobody's "rights" are being violated, nobody is forced to take any drugs... Yes, you look like a bit of a dork wearing one, and I am not sure that there has been a rash of elementary kids that have been trying to infiltrate the school.
I am pretty sure that this is not serving any purpose other than enriching the school. How hard *is* attendance anyways? But surely, this is no big deal.
Re:a rant.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree with you 100%. I had a handful of extremely talented and down-to-earth teachers during my 4 years of high school. Many of them took time aside to help me out with projects unrelated to their classes. One helped me start a business and another helped me with legal advice when I got arrested. One teacher even took the time to show a video tape of the Feb 15 Iraq War protests on Democracy Now to our class. This teacher had no reason to do so except that he felt it was right we see what was truly happening in our country. After seeing the video which featured American protesters and interviews with everyday people living in Iraq, it completely changed my perspective on the war.
I realize I'm going off-topic, but the fact is that many people rant about the poor quality of teachers. I'm not saying every teacher I had was great - with the handful of outstanding teachers, I also got a few really bad ones too - but thats life. But getting back to the point, the teachers I mentioned were frequently in trouble with the administration. Never in my life have I seen such a power-hungry group of people so detached from their constituents and reality. They're policy was "we're always right and the students must obey." When they fucked up, no reparations or even an apology were ever considered. When I look back at high school, I do not have one good thing to say about the way my school was run.
Re:a rant.... (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't disagree that in some cases administrators take things too far, but there are PLENTY of parents who simply can't fathom their child misbehaving and become very angry when it's suggested he or she is.
Re:a rant.... (Score:2, Insightful)
silly me... and I thought it was lack of funding... but, hey, what do I know?
seriously, though... why does everyone want to blame someone... most of the time, problems are far too complex to blame a single person, group of people, or any single cause for that matter.
It really just kind of makes me sad.
Parental control (Score:1, Insightful)
Right, cue slashdot nerd jokes about none of us getting laid in high school. *waits* Done now? Let's move on.
As soon as this data is available, parents are going to want access to it. All of it.
There is a limit to how much a parent can be involved in a child's life before that child becomes warped. Many, many parents are so scared of teen pregnancy and AIDS because of fear-mongering news programs that they over-interfere. Other parents come from more conservative cultures than the ones their children are adopting. To a certain extent, a child should have the freedom to develop its own values.
See, there's a huge distinction between knowing:
A) "Billy went to all his classes."
and
B) "Billy went to his first class, then his second. He had a spare before lunch, so first he went to the bathroom, then he had lunch in the cafeteria, then he went through the parking lot doors and came back in twenty minutes."
and
C) "Billy went to his first class, second class, bathroom, lunch. Then he went to the parking lot for twenty minutes. Billy and Sarah went through the doors together on the way out and the way back."
If Sarah's parents don't like Billy, this last one is big, big trouble. It's not damning evidence, but maybe Sarah's been told to stay away from Billy. Maybe Sarah's parents are a bit paranoid. Who knows? In a large school system, there will be some bad parents.
There were times in school I'd be furious with a teacher. I'd ask to visit the washroom, and instead I'd take a quick walk around the school. With this kind of monitoring, that trip around the school would be logged, and I wouldn't have the psychological room to calm down. Every door I passed would be a trigger. What would have happened under those circumstances? I don't know.
Students are in school for twelve years. Twelve years of surveillance is just too much. They'll crack. They won't be able to separate themselves from what their parents think of them. It's a big deal, because the amount of data *is* much larger. Having very precise times at which each student passed each scanner is orders of magnitude more than "They were in a classroom near the beginning of that class."
I'm just glad I'm already out.
Re:Electronically tracking students? (Score:2, Insightful)
So there are some benefits on a technical level; easier to detect deadbeat parents, easier to track attendence records, therefore better budget controls and more accurate use of taxpayers money, and 5 minutes more instruction time per class since the teacher does not have to track attendance by hand.
Now its true that there is a risk of abuse of personal freedom. Tracking bathroom use patterns might be an example of that. However I don't think its automatically all bad.
The most interesting aspect of electronic accounting systems, in my opinion, is that it forces us, as a society, to take an honest look at our own standards and really decide if we believe in them or not. The reason these tracking systems are uncomfortable is that we are living a lie. Everyone drives over the speed limit sometimes, so is it really such a bad thing? We create regulations which we don't really believe in, and then apply them inconsistently. I think that is what makes so many people uncomfortable with the government; that the system is fundamentally dishonest. Automated tracking and enforcement systems give us an opportunity to see what is really happening, and then to decide what our values really are. Its not going to be easy, but I think its long overdue.
Re:"They envy us our freedom" (Score:1, Insightful)
They are making sure kids at school are in fact at school.
Wrong. They already have a mechanism for making sure kids at school are in fact at school. They verify the fact visually.
What they now have is a system for making sure the RFID tags at school are in fact, at school.
I think the only argument that can be made is that the RFID tags are more efficient, because attendance doesn't have to be taken. On the other hand, I suspect it's less accurate, as students can easily carry each other's RFID cards. And, I'm not sure it is more efficient, because how long really does it take a teacher with a seating chart to take attendance? 30 seconds?
Re:What this article doesn't mention (Score:1, Insightful)
You seem surprised such things happen.
Re:a rant.... (Score:2, Insightful)
But "legal" and "right" are different. Slavery still was wrong, and so slaves had a right to be free and to fight for freedom, even when the US Consitution explicitly permitted slavery. Likewise Jews in Nazi Germany had a right to live, no matter what the Nazi legal system said.
Whether or not students have a right to privacy at a public school is a moral question, no matter what the US Supreme Court says. So parents claiming their students have a right to privacy aren't "mistaken about their kids rights" - they are disagreeing with the school about their kids rights.
Sean
Re:RFID Mis-understanding (Score:3, Insightful)
I know you were specifically referring to unpowered badges, but unless you remove the battery (and most probably won't), badges like these [rfideas.com] have a range of fifteen feet. I've worked these badges in the past, and I've been able to pick them up from longer distances on may occasions.
Re:About damn time (Score:5, Insightful)
By getting people used to idea of being tracked when they are young and powerless, you have a better chance of not making them question the tracking when they are adults. Then, the next step towards total control can be taken on the next generation of children.
In fact, you can see how effective this is by looking at some of the posts in this thread already: Note how many people have been conditioned to believe that regular monitoring is normal and "healthy" now, and thus automation of this monitoring is absolutely OK.
Kids in School != Adults on Sidewalk (Score:4, Insightful)
Minors in a school are a different thing altogether; and I don't buy the slippery slope arguments on that point. Kids do leave the schools without authorization. And no, that is never a good or welcome thing. This way school admin has another tool to know where they are, or are not, during school hours.
Some people have different thoughts on this matter. The most reasonable approach might be to assign these cards only parent request.
We must abandon democracy to save it... (Score:1, Insightful)
I think its like ignoring the UN to attack Saddam for ignoring the UN...
Re:Obvious solution ... two words: (Score:1, Insightful)
lest we forget (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ahh... now we have RFID toe tags (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
As others have already said on here the real danger is that if such measures are instituted then we'll be creating an entire populace of people that just don't understand what it is like to have any liberty.
It seems that in the USA we now treat children as propert of sorts. They're basically at the level that slaves were when that whole mess was still legal. Disturbing, but I'm pretty much forced to operate from his perspective as I don't see the populace changing their perspective anytime soon. Face it, we're not even allowing full civil liberties of adults at this point so there's pretty much no hope for the children. Once the 18+ crowd is properly respected I'll take a more serious approach on the under 18 crowd.
So, operating from the premise that children are property we must ask ourselves who's propery are they? Logically they are the parents property. They, the parents, are responbile for the child's actions at this stage in the child's life. Mostly... we make some exceptions. So, if the parents wanted this system I might be in favor of it, or more accurately I wouldn't be opposed to it. However, this is the school's creation. There is no opt-out it seems for parents. The children (property) MUST adhere to this system. What does this tell them? It tells them that they are the property of the State and not of their parents.
I would hope that you see the danger in raising children with the notion that they have no rights and that their legal guardians have no ability to protect their rights. To be told from an early age that you are a trackable entity by a government body and that there is NOTHING that can be done to stop this is a very damning thing for a country founded on principles of liberty. It just doesn't mesh.
This RFID tracking crap is just another step in that direction which is already charing full steam ahead.
Re:you're living in a fantasy world (Score:3, Insightful)
Why should a bunch of armed hooligans with guns fare any better than some ragtag bunch of illiterate, underequipped Asian peasants? Because such people could never hope for any sort of victory against the U.S. Armed Forces.
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
1) it conditions kids (even more) to living in a society in which their every move is monitored.
2) it gives enormous power to administrators, who, as anyone who went through public high school should know, are only human. I had my run-ins with administrators (mostly because of school newspaper articles) and they can be pretty petty.
Of course, we're talking about 7th and 8th graders, but it's a terrible precedent to set. One of the students was quoted as saying, "Look at this. I'm a grocery item. I'm a piece of meat. I'm an orange."
She objects to being treated as an object; our society needs more of that.
Whether or not it's "American" is besides the point. What matters is whether or not it is practical and ethical.
You might want to reconsider your worldview (Score:4, Insightful)
What do you teach children when you have to tag them and constantly monitor all their activities?
That you don't trust them. They never learn to be trusted, thus either will rebell even more than the kids of today or become complacent slaves to society (neither is healthy for anybody).
When many of these kids grow up, they'll be so used to being monitored and bitched around, when society requires this for adults too, they will not have a concept of freedom that we do. It's the American way of life to be monitored and put under constant surveillance then. Corporations monitoring for maximizing profits will seem natural, because that will make more money, and you don't really have any other options. The concept has been eradicated.
Kids become adults you know. And they become what we teach = our own example mixed with our treatment of them.