Canadian Government Weary of Patriot Act

IllogicalStudent writes "An article on canoe discusses how the Canadian government is moving to counter worries surrounding Canadian citizens' privacy being compromised by the United States' Patriot act. Apparently the FBI currently has the right, through Patriot, to search documents which may contain Canadian information sent to US firms carrying out work under contract. Thankfully, privacy still means something up here."

Re:Privacy laws extend internationally

[Anonymous Coward]

My company has a service hosted in the US of A. (We are Australian.) The service provider had to sign contracts ensuring that 'our' state and federal privacy laws would be upheld. PATRIOT (afaik) lets the FBI / CIA / Secret Service wander up to any data store and say 'hand it over, and don't tell them that you have.'

This seems to explicitly and secretly *breach* any privacy laws extended to the service provider.

I am lobbying for my company to cancel the service and host locally (maybe with a different product) as I value the privacy of our customers and their information.

Re:Privacy laws extend internationally

[nuggz]

The problem is if the US government demands the US company hand over data via the Patriot act, they have to.
So this could result in a messy case of a US company having to decide to follow the US law, or the EU law. In this case the company is screwed, unfortunately the fear is a US company would rather break a foreign law then the US law.

Meh, probably not

[alexwcovington]

I think a really good idea is Canada becoming a commonwealth of the U.S., like Puerto Rico. Puerto Ricans are stuck in a lovely political loophole that's not quite statehood and not quite independence. The US Government can basically run roughshod over Puerto Rico with nothing but the occasional referendum to maybe change the situation. A better idea would be for Canada to look at joining the European Union (it's already a member of ESA) and making that kind of transnational governance take hold over more of the world than a teensie continent.

Don't Do Business With Them

[MoThugz]

Apparently the FBI currently has the right, through Patriot, to search documents which may contain Canadian information sent to US firms carrying out work under contract.

Then just don't do business with those firms.

Let your money do the talking... apparently politicians listen more to corporations than individuals (especially the average /. geek).

Re:A really stupid overly idealist view you have.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just as corporal punishment discouraged kids from acting out in school so does the threat and implemenation of destruction curtail the activities of the lunatic groups that seek to impose their views on others.

Just like the death penalty has eliminated murders from all those Texas cities... oh, wait, no it hasn't.

PS : You'll notice the Canadians were more than happy to send troops to Afghanistan, from where the terrorists actually were operating.

PPS : Threadjack!

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[TheRaven64]

Do you really think that owning a firearm protects you against a police state? Honestly? The amount and type of firepower available to the US military are so far in excess of those available to the civilian population[1] that you stand no chance at all if the military were to be used to quell a popular uprising. Not to mention the fact that it is far more likely that a modern totalitarian state would rely far more heavily on the control of information than the control of firepower (dead people don't make good serfs, after all).

[1] Unless I'm mistaken and you can own IR / RADAR hybrid missiles, and your own SDI system and nuclear deterrent.

Canadians don't like the Patriot Act, eh?

[krygny]

Well, here in the US, we're not terribly pleased about how easily [cic.gc.ca] almost anyone from anywhere can, at least temporarily, stay in Canada with no practical restrictions. Maybe saunter across a very open border. I thought we were pals. (See? - These things cut both ways.)

Just so you know, even those here in the US who support the Patriot Act on balance, object to some provision or another of it.

Oh, but I've just crashed a US bash-fest and I'm not in style.

Re:Land crossing question

[UnHolier than ever]

Actually, crossing the american border as a canadian is quite funny. I was in Logan airport recently on a flight from Paris. The line-up was awful, everyone single person got interrogated and fingerprinted, included families with children, until it was my turn. I had filled all the papers they gave me in the plane (which takes a long time!) but when the border agent saw my passport, he basically said "Oh, you're canadian! You don't need this! Welcome to America! Next!!!". That felt nice...until I realised all that other people had to go through. Honestly, it's too much.

Re:Land crossing question

[Hypr]

In certain circumstances, as I discovered in October 2004, they do. Allow me to tell a little tale. I'm Canadian, though I have worked in the United States for several years through NAFTA (TN-1 status). To be able to work in the US, the candidate must be Canadian, have a degree, and have secured a job that is listed in the Treaty itself. (The rules are different for Mexicans.) I have a B.Sc in Biology, and have worked as a Computer Validation Specialist--a job specific to pharma and biotech companies and such. The science background helps in my job as I work with computerized lab instruments, and lab people that know little about computers. So, I was living back in my homeland, Nova Scotia, Canada for a few months after a Validation assignment finished in Michigan. I got a new job in Minnesota, and loaded up my vehicle and set out to drive (long drive). When I arrived at the New Brunswick-Maine border, I was told by the Immigration officer (Homeland Security) that I could come in to the country as a Computer Analyst (the NAFTA job description I've had for several years) because I didn't have a comp. sci. degree. I was refused entry! So here I was, supposed to start work two days from then, and I couldn't get in when I knew I was within the law to do so. Now I know that it is a great PRIVILEGE for me to be allowed to work in your great nation, but I had just driving six hours. I wasn't thrilled. Of course I didn't want to cause trouble for fear I'd end up at Gitmo, so I said thank you and I'll be on my way back home. Oh, no my friend, you have to be fingerprinted and photographed. "But I'm Canadian, I said, with indcredulity. "It's policy whenever someone is denied entry that they be fingerprinted and photographed." I always jokingly suspected that the feds were listening to my cell phone conversations because, well, as a Canadian I'm a raging liberal and like things like civil liberty, care of the environment, global community and all that (you know who I'm talking about). Now I'm in the system. In fact, they're reading this post right now! Say hello to the nice FBI agents, Slashdotters!

Re:Privacy Details

[Fr05t]

The company I work for follows PIPEDA to the letter when dealing with customer and potential customer information and data. This is extended to American and European customers as a matter of respect. Most of PIPEDA is simple common sense respect for others privacy. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy :)

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[InsaneGeek]

Actually the US has just as good a safety net for the poor (I've read a number of articles that the say $ quantity of support is even more), but it's the middle class in the US is where they remove the support. From a state benefit perspective the poor aren't in a bad shape, the people on the lower-middle class bracket are where the safety net end in the US and continues in Canada (med bills, mortgage, layoff, etc for this non-poor but non-wealthy group can get painful)

And you also have to register your gun in the US too.

Re:You have no right to visit here

[Fredge]

The EU has been pressured into granting Paseenger Flight Data be given to the US for flights in EU airspace (that don't even go to the US).

Is this documented somewhere?

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[Dashing Leech]

"Let's make fun of them so we can feel all smug and righteous."

No, we make fun of them as a means of highlighting your ignorance in hopes you will do something about it. That most Americans don't know jack about the rest of the world is news [counterpunch.org]. We don't make fun to feel smug and righteous. We make fun because we're concerned about your massive ignorance of worldly events and how it drives your politics. If you checked out the "Talking to Americans" website from the grandparent post, you'll see that most of it was talking to American politicians and some "influential" celebrities. These are the people that influence what Americans believe and are supposed to know about the world around them, and they clearly don't.

But yes, most Americans are good, hardworking, nice people. We aren't offened by them, though we perhaps respect them less since the last election. (OK, in 2000 you didn't know G. W. was a fuckup, but this time you should have.) We are, however, often offended by American politicians and media. Their deception, bias, illogical reasoning, and clear pandering towards good sound bites and entertainment over truth is quite obvious and offensive. But when you don't have real politicians and media who actually research and analyze things first, there's nothing to compare to and realize how stupid it looks.

Re:Just goes to show

[SenseiLeNoir]

Something us brits are learning the hard way. I wish the British government had the same sort of backbone as the Canadian goverment.

The Canadians have a lot to loose if any tension occurs between them and the US, far more than the British, yet they have been able to stand their ground well, whilst still maintaining the level of co-operation with the US, unlike our "sell out" government of Teflon Tony, who seems to totally ignore the British public.

And aside point, initially the British public didnt exactly say NO to the invasion of IRAQ, just that we were concerned about HOW it was going to be done. When our voices were not being heard, thats when many people decided to do towards the anti war message, in order to poke our government into action.

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[Rod Beauvex]

Your ancestors were wussies! [idrewthis.org]


I'm so sick of hearing "You're a coward for moving to Canada". Get a new mantra.

Re:Land crossing question

[strider44]

Why? Don't you think if you kill the mother, father, children and siblings of a person they'll be slightly pissed off? I'd say a person of that situation with a personal reason to attack a country would be more of a danger to security than someone who's politically motivated, as were the Soviets in the Cold War. However, when you kill hundreds of thousands of civilians, you quite easily make a personal grudge out of just about anyone.

I wonder how the number of US Soldiers that were killed by Iraqi Military doing their job contrasts to the number of US Soldiers that were killed by Iraqi Civilians.

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[Anonymous Coward]

We just think they are good for humor value [comcast.net] if nothing else. :)

You must enjoy being brainwashed. Americans wonder why 9 of 10 of our provinces are the lowest average standard of living in North America when compared to the states. And the 10th province isn't far up the list. They must think the people are stupid or the government is a mess.

Big government socialist types, like Adolph Hitler, use persecution and targeted humour to manage the masses. Most Canadians are too stupid to realize this. CBC for example, oh they criticise government only to a point to get some perception they are worth the billions of government dollars but the reporting is biased.

Reality is, American people are no different than Canadians. In fact, many Americans and Canadians have relatives accross the border.

There isn't a working Canadian I know of that would suffer for 9 more stars on the flag. Let PQ go to france. At least the US had a civil war and solved their indifferences many years ago.

Canada is a great place because of it's people, not because of it's government. But there are plenty of good Americans too.

A Canadian sick of mindless American hate mongers.

on moral relativism...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Americans know quite a bit about the rest of the world."

Or at least some of us do, I was a little pissed off at the GP for writing that we didn't.

"We don't subscribe to the "live-and-let live" moral relativism that many other countries espouse. We want to make the world a better place for the oppressed."

Sorry to burst your bubble, but supporting the Iraq invasion on grounds you are spreading democracy is the height of moral relativism. You're saying "it's OK to kill X amount of innocent people because Y amount of oppressed people will (hopefully) be liberated". It's the ends justifying the means. If that's not moral relativism I don't know what is.

Re:Land crossing question

[mtrupe]

Okay- how about this. I own a gun. I enjoy target shooting. Its a hobby and its fun. Are you telling me I shouldn't be allowed to do this? You think more government should tell me what I can and cannot own? Are you nuts?

Should the government ban everything that has the potential to be dangerous.

Freedom is dangerous, so I guess we should ban freedom altogether.

People like you scare me.

Re:Tell me about it.

[operagost]

Wow -- look at your idiocy on display for the entire internet to see. "Hi-cap mags are back in our schools?" Are you serious? Columbine happened while Clinton and his "assault weapon ban" was in effect. They killed quite well with 10-round magazines. What's happened since then? Any full-auto school slaughters? Oh yeah, in Beslan, Russia -- by terrorists.

Shoot, I'm still afraid of Janet Reno.

Re:s/Weary/Wary/

[Aeron65432]

And if you think that the government should decide where you go to school, where you get your healthcare, and what you should do with your money, I recommend that you move to Canada.

Re:Canadian email, for example...

[Techguy666]

I was just on the phone with Rogers Cable as I started to type this response. I contacted a technical support droid who escalated this question up to a "senior support" person.

Their answer (after being put on hold for just three minutes) was "We're partnered with Yahoo Canada so we shouldn't fall under the reach of the US Patriot Act". Yahoo Canada's parent company, being situated in the US, makes me suspicious of this quick answer - but Rogers seems to think we're protected still and as long as they're willing to fight under this premise should they have to, I'm okay with it.

The techie then also pointed out that we can opt not to take their Rogers Yahoo bundle and keep our existing services, minus the web hosting and yahoo mail. We won't be forced to move to the Yahoo deal anytime soon.

Hope this puts your mind at rest a bit.

Re:hah Yeah canada is really free

[Astreja]

Manitoba's liquor stores rock, too. On New Year's Eve, in one of the larger mall outlets, there were two huge lines of people all the way to the back of the store. I was out of there in ten minutes flat. The clerks at the till (four of them, I think) were unfailingly polite and upbeat in the face of this liquor-crazed horde that had descended upon them.

And I really like the idea that there's quality control.

So what, exactly, makes a private liquor outlet superior to a publicly-owned one?

Re:Allow me to clarfiy

[MightyMartian]

> Big government socialist types, like Adolph
> Hitler, use persecution and targeted humour to
> manage the masses. Most Canadians are too stupid
> to realize this. CBC for example, oh they
> criticise government only to a point to get some
> perception they are worth the billions of
> government dollars but the reporting is biased.

Wow, compare a socialist government to Nazis, always a good way to indicate that you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

The CBC raked the Liberals over the coals just as much as anyone else. Hell, Rex Murphy's in hot water because he sided with religious concerns over gay marriage.

CBC's heads and shoulders above Global.

Re:Overacting

[IndiJ]

Part of what happens is that people think they can apply their laws and way of life inside of our borders.

Pardon me, but what the fuck are you talking about? I have never heard any Canadian publicly or privately suggest that you should follow our laws. Ever. In fact, several, myself included, are jealous of some of them - notably your Constitution's First Amendment.

RTFA. The problem is that my personal and Canadian information can be accessed at any time by a foreign power - the US. How the hell would you like it if Canada, France or Iran could get access to your personal info, Social Security number, health records, etc. etc.? You can play with your damn guns and burn any damn flag you feel like (that's called being tolerant and respecting another culture btw - try it sometime), but I will not be satisfied with you having access to my medical history.

Now, I read alot of the bad points of the Patriot Act here on /. . How about some of the good? How about the terrorist suspects that have been detained because they could be watched easier, search warrant fast tracked and all?

How about the Canadian citizen they wrongly deport to be tortured - without even notifying Canada? How about the Canadian citizen that just disappeared while Americans hemmed and hawed over deciding whether or not he was a terrorist? You wanna lock yourselves up go right the fuck ahead, but why should we stand idly by while you illegally detain and/or deport our citizens? And before you answer that, let me put it in a perspective your small mind can understand, because you appear unable to appreciate world-views other than your own. Imagine your brother goes to visit Hong Kong. You haven't heard from him for two or three days when you suddenly get a call from the government, telling you that the Hong Kong government sent him to Libya a couple days ago. They just informed the US. Then comes the titanic struggle to get your brother out of Libya. Then you finally get your brother back and he tells you he was tortured while in Libya.

You would be irked, yes?

Personally, if I found out that someone had one of my children, and the only person that knew where my child was located was sitting in front of me, I would peel their skin off to find the information I needed to help find my child in one piece. Right or wrong, that is what I would do, and it would not bother me if my government did the same thing to people who were trying to cause a disaster here in this country.

Uh huh. Let's see how you feel about that when YOU'RE the one getting your skin "peeled off" because the knucklehead doing the peeling didn't notice the slight difference in spelling between your name and the name of the real perpetrator, asshole. And yes, THAT CAN AND DOES HAPPEN. Ask that English lawyer who was falsely accused of being a terrorist. These rights that you seem so happy to throw away aren't for your fucking comfort, they're for your safety.

The people we are fighting, so we all (yes, even you Canada) can be safe, are animals.

NO, THEY ARE NOT! THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS. Misguided human beings? Definitely. Evil human beings? Probably. But they are human beings, and the moment you decide that you have the right to treat them as subhuman, I'm no longer with you, I'm so fucking against you it will make your head spin.

These people want your women to hide and not be seen, and they want to be able to execute you if you believe in a different God, or none at all. You people that believe that gays should marry... Go to Iran and try it, lets see how well that works out!

The hell is your point? Rifling through my bank acc

Re:I think it's an appropriate time...

[lamz]

I've read estimates that there were as many Canadians who volunteered to fight with the U.S. Army as there were Americans who fled to Canada to avoid the draft. Just that fact alone can start to explain why the U.S. has grown keener to participate in overseas wars, while Canada has grown less inclined.

In World War I, Canada sent 600,000 troops to fight in Europe. In World War II, Canada sent 1.5 million troops. To put this into perspective, you need to understand that the population of Canada during World War I was 6,000,000 people. The population during World War II was 15,000,000 people. That means that in each of the two world wars, Canada sent 10% of its population to fight in someone else's war.

Now THAT'S a warlike nation!

Re:Overacting

[zx75]

No, see the point is that I (being a Canadian) do NOT want my personal records, credit card reports, etc. to be available for the perusal of a Foreign Government because I do business with a Canadian company.

Thats the crux. I know I take my chances whenever I deal with an american company, and thats fine. I accept what happens then, but the problem is that we DO NOT KNOW when our information could be compromised because Canadian corporations have not divulged the use of american contractors.

In the past this wasn't an issue, because the US had essentially the same laws in regards to privacy as we did. But with the introduction of this act, all of a sudden that privacy has been stripped away and now we are left wondering who can access our information? You may not care about the erosion of your rights, and thats fine. We do.

Re:Pot-Kettle-Black

[Daniel Boisvert]

Gun registration has historically been a precursor to outright bans and confiscation in many countries. If the government doesn't know you've got firearms, they can't take them away. Sure, they can knock on your door and demand you turn your firearms over, but it's easy enough to tell them you don't have any--and they can't prove otherwise.

The US is a very young country, and a large part of the founding of our country was for freedoms of speech and religion. In our not-so-distant past we fought a revolution to overthrow a rule we felt was unjust. This would not have been possible without the broad ownership of firearms (or the help of the French, for that matter ;).

Up until a hundred years ago or so, firearms were still commonly used for self defence in the less settled parts of our nation. Even today, they're used by plenty of people as tools. Ranchers have to protect their herds from coyotes; folks who live in the country may have to protect themselves from bears or wolves; farmers have to protect their fields from all manner of wildlife that will happily eat their entire crop. To folks who use firearms as tools, it seems foolish and unnecessary regulation to have to register them. You don't have to register a screwdriver or welding torch, and you could easily kill someone with either of those, so why would you have to register firearms?

Then there's another group of people which doesn't think the government has any business regulating what they can and can't have in their homes. It's mine, I paid for it, and it's none of your damned business. There are many people here who are very particular about their privacy.

Lastly, the anti-gun lobby in the US is pretty open about professing slippery slope tactics. The people behind the contentious Brady Bill and the recently-expired Assault Weapons Ban (the name doesn't remotely fit the contents of the bill, btw) are quite clear that they first intend to outlaw scary-looking guns, then high-powered guns, then get 'em all registered, and then work on each subgroup one at a time until they get all guns outlawed. Would you give any concessions to a group which has openly stated such goals and methodology? :)

There are even more reasons that I'm sure I've overlooked, but I think this is a decent overview. Anything related to firearms in the US is highly-charged politically for a good many reasons, the least of which being that our politicians have a zillion other things they should be worrying about first. ;)

Re:Pot-Kettle-Black

[kilfarsnar]

That was coherent and concise. Thank you. You make good points and have given me something to think about. Some counter points though:

"You don't have to register a screwdriver or welding torch, and you could easily kill someone with either of those, so why would you have to register firearms?"

Because a firearm's intended purpose is to kill things, the exception being target shooting. This is not the case with other tools. It's been said that any tool is a weapon if you hold it right. But a gun is a weapon that can be a tool if you use it right.

"Sure, they can knock on your door and demand you turn your firearms over, but it's easy enough to tell them you don't have any--and they can't prove otherwise."

I think that if the gov't is at the point of coming to your door and asking about your guns, they'd probably just bust in a search your house. In this day and age I don't think an armed populace can defend itself against a gov't anyway. Look at the insurgents in Iraq. They have RPG's but they won't be able to defeat the US militarily. We may have guns, but the gov't has tanks and missiles. But I guess if there is no registration, there are a lot more houses to search.

"Then there's another group of people which doesn't think the government has any business regulating what they can and can't have in their homes. It's mine, I paid for it, and it's none of your damned business. There are many people here who are very particular about their privacy."

I can definitely get behind that.

Personally, I don't think much about guns or their registration, as I do not own one and have little desire to. Though I have gone shooting with friends, and had a good time. I live in a major city and view guns as rather unnecessary and often hazardous. Your examples of ranchers and the like are different circumstances, of course. Basically, I support a person's right to own a gun, but would advise them not to. Thanks again for the food for thought!