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Privacy Censorship HP Patents Technology Hardware

No Pictures, Thanks 749

An anonymous reader writes "HP has received a patent on technology that would allow anyone who didn't want their picture taken to remotely instruct cameras to blur their face. While this is being promoted as a privacy measure, does anyone else see the serious rights issues here? What's to prevent this being used by police to block their images when they're beating or otherwise mistreating people? If this tech can be used to blur faces, it can be quite easily adapted to turn cameras off altogether, with deeply troubling implications. And even without these 'what if' scenarios, isn't there an expectation that, if you're in a public area, you're fair game for being photographed?"
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No Pictures, Thanks

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  • by A beautiful mind ( 821714 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @02:48PM (#11482993)
    This whole thing reminds me to 1984(no, seriously!) when the guy affiliated with the party can switch off his camera/tv.
  • by Infonaut ( 96956 ) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @02:48PM (#11482994) Homepage Journal
    The best part is, the end of the article mentions that HP doesn't plan on a commercial use for the patent, for exactly that reason.

    They may hve figured out how to do this, then decided to patent it specifically to prevent its use in the wild.

  • an important issue (Score:5, Interesting)

    by wattersa ( 629338 ) <andrew@andrewwatters.com> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @02:49PM (#11483001) Homepage
    I'm a believer in the firmly rooted idea that when you're in a public place, you're willingly presenting yourself to the view of others and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. This was a problem for me when I took a photo of a stranger's car [yafro.com] because I believed she was abusing the disabled placard system. It was on private property-- a mini-mall-- but still in a public place. Neither of us could understand the other's point of view. While I can understand her not wanting me to take a picture of _her_, it was difficult for me to accept her angry and indignant view that I needed her permission to photograph her car. She retaliated by taking a photo of _me_ (ha!). Needless to say a device in her pocket that could have disabled my digital camera would have bothered me greatly. Which is why if something like this ever comes to market, I'm going to stick with the 1965 Pentax SLR, which is entirely mechanical, instead of the more modern Kodak digital. Seems like DRM is just making us go back to older but DRM-free tech :/
  • by MaxQuordlepleen ( 236397 ) <el_duggio@hotmail.com> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @02:50PM (#11483035) Homepage

    Because expanded police powers increase the threat of the development of a police state. We need to keep a leash on the police. They are a useful tool for keeping peace in society, as long as they are OUR tool.

    If you increased police powers significantly, you would run the risk of those powers being abused.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @02:56PM (#11483138)
    They do...there are regulations about murder too, and for most people it works great!
  • Exactly! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by metlin ( 258108 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @02:57PM (#11483146) Journal
    ...Or for that matter, any cameras without this "feature".

    And once the market demand goes down, people will just stop using them.

    As simple as that.
  • Think bigger... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by andymac ( 82298 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @02:58PM (#11483170) Homepage
    This "techonology" could be used in places where you don't want some goof with a cellphone camera taking snaps of stuff, i.e.: my company's office, the ladies change room at my local gym/pool, government offices, etc. I know I'd love to have something that disables a cellphone camera in specific areas - right now I have to rely on the honesty of my guests in disclosing if their camera has imaging capabilities or not... (hint: I work with secured technologies).

    The patent may be broad enough to cover the larger concept of obscuring/degrading/modifying digital data when captured via certain types of devices.
  • by fracai ( 796392 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @03:01PM (#11483203)
    Dilbert may have used it but it dates back to the belief of certain cultures (Native Americans, etc) that were unfamiliar with photography when it first debuted and thought that the camera would steal their soul. Even knowing how the technology works I can understand this feeling. It's like being upset that someone is sniffing your packets when you can't use ssl to protect yourself.

    One summer at camp there was a kid that would only agree to be in the cabin photo if he wasn't forced to look at the camera. He later threatened to eat me, but that's beside the point.
  • by Martin Blank ( 154261 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @03:01PM (#11483208) Homepage Journal
    There have been some pushing for mandated sounds on camera phones, to avoid people snapping pictures down blouses or up skirts without some chance of the target knowing about it. I believe I saw something recently that the EU was strongly in favor of this.
  • Re:Simple.. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Datasage ( 214357 ) * <Datasage AT theworldisgrey DOT com> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @03:07PM (#11483306) Homepage Journal
    Even with digital, film wont die. It will become more specialized. Try doing very large format shooting ( >20 MP) with digital camera.

    There is also the whole analog is cool aspect. Like why some musicans still prefer acoustic instrements over electric.

    There are also art/natural aspects that are hard to reproduce. Especiall with "toy" cameras such as the holga or diana cameras.

    Many professional photographers use both film and digital.

    The whole HP thing is another reason to use film.
  • by Lord Kano ( 13027 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @03:16PM (#11483428) Homepage Journal
    Gee...I dunno. Regulations about that sort of thing, perhaps?

    So the police who are ignoring the laws about mistreating and beating the shit out of innocent people are going to suddenly obey the law when it comes to not obscuring their faces and badge numbers when they do it?

    LK
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @03:19PM (#11483465)
    Ok great. Let's assume this tech. is implemented.

    Now picture this: police looking for criminals specifically tell cameras to take pictures of people who wear the blurring device, since they "have a much higher chance of being the criminal we're looking for."

    It's a two-way street; once you're identified, for whatever reason, you can be filtered for either good or bad reasons.
  • by loraksus ( 171574 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @03:21PM (#11483485) Homepage
    Why the consistent anti-law inforcement sentiment on /.?

    Oooh, oooh.
    This is why [vehiclehitech.com]
  • A Scanner Darkly (Score:2, Interesting)

    by jac1962 ( 822171 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @03:39PM (#11483742) Homepage

    What's to prevent this being used by police to block their images when they're beating or otherwise mistreating people?

    Reminds me of the scramble suits [amazon.com] worn by narcotics agents in Phillip K. Dick's excellent A Scanner Darkly [philipkdick.com]?

    Hmmmmm. . .

    [Soon to be a major motion picture [imdb.com] too!]

  • by category_five ( 814174 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @04:38PM (#11484436)
    The police don't necessarily care about photos when they are beating people. In many cases they are following orders. For instance, when the police are sent in to break up a peaceful demonstration they go in with full riot gear and Billy clubs. The NYC Republican convention protests are a great example of this. Throughout the 19th century there are many examples of authorites ordered to repress civilians of america. The 1932 Bonus Army in which the US military was dispatched against peaceful civilian demonstrators. From 1920 to 1940 police were used extensively to break up peaceful and violent union picket lines. Often times these actions resulted in the death of american civilians. It's not one or two "bad cops". It is a purposefully placed systematic corruption aimed at benefiting the powerful. Another example of abuse of innocents by our American government is the Abu Ghraib Prison scandals. The jailors were not ashamed of what they did. They were just following orders. Hell, they took pictures of themselves doing it. Were the people they were raping with broomsticks (yes there are documented cases of this) Hanging up in chains, beating with fists, attacking with dogs and even prisoners beaten to death. Were these people innocent? We will never know as they were never given a trial. But back to my point. No cop is a bad cop when the entire system is corrupt.
  • Re:Simple.. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Charcharodon ( 611187 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @05:24PM (#11484968)
    Hehe have a sniffer looking for people who don't want their picture taken and then take their picture with a film camera.

    There is a simple solution to this as has been for every type of stupid tech solution. Don't buy it.

    Beside it won't be long before someone sues. It's pretty much ingrained in civil law. You have no right to privacy while in public.

    I can see though it being legal and usefull to companies, the military, and other public/private venues such as concerts to keep people from being able to use their easily concealed digital cameras. Outside these areas I see it as nothing more than an attempt to extend copyright far beyond sane boundaries. Of course it would be funny if they required this technology in all security and police cameras too. So much for evidence and it would be the death to the show "Cops"

  • by B747SP ( 179471 ) <slashdot@selfabusedelephant.com> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @05:26PM (#11484990)
    What's to prevent this being used by police to block their images when they're beating or otherwise mistreating people?

    This isn't going to be a problem for police. With a couple of notable exceptions *cough*Rodney*cough*King*cough*, they're already well skilled in hiding their own wrongdoing.

    Why, the New South Wales Police (Sydney, Australia) Senior Constable with badge number 66312 simply left the room and removed his official badge and other identifying stuff before he started beating up on me in the old North Sydney Police Station. There were lots of other police in the room at the time, but none of them saw a thing. (Good thing I'd already committed the number to memory huh!)

    No, cops won't need to worry about electronic gadgets to blur faces - they'll just turn the other, er, cheek like they've been doing for years!

  • by amerinese ( 685318 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @06:45PM (#11485869)
    It's a good question whenever police powers are increased, but that sure as hell not the relevant question here.

    When people talk about strong encryption, they always talk about how the government has no right to interfere, how VOIP is hard to tap and that's good. Why the hell is this increase in privacy related to police powers? I mean, it's a plausible situation, but no one ever asks if strong encryption can be used by government agents for illegitimate reasons. Seriously, this is such a biased posting. What about drug dealers using the device to prevent photo surveillance of deals? What about any illegal activity that is prevented from being photographed? If it increases privacy, it increases it for everyone. The question is wrong because it's one-sided.

  • by Chris-Mouse ( 738048 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:02PM (#11486616)
    The article mentions that only cameras in range of the device would be affected. What happens if I use one of the digital cameras with the 10x zoom to take a picture from outside the privacy range?

    Does this affect ALL cameras in range, or only cameras pointed at the person wanting privacy? If it affects all cameras, how do I prevent the paranoid person behind me from spoiling my family pictures at Disneyland? If it only affects cameras pointed at the person with the privacy device, how does the camera know who has the device, or which way it is pointing?

    As has also been pointed out, there's also the problem of criminals (in uniform or otherwise) using such a device to block the collection of photographic evidence. If a device like this does become mandated for all digital cameras, I can see a booming business selling privacy devices to those wanting to get past security cameras.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @09:10PM (#11487204)
    Nobody would prevent you to carry your older digital camera, or an an analog one, which can then completely ignore the request for cooperation in the other person's face blurring.

    I have a hard time seeing how this kind of technology would be applied in such a way. The submitter, and the article, talks about blurring faces but I think there could actually be an even more useful application for it.

    For example, let's assume a reporter was given temporary access to a government facility (e.g. one that belongs to say FBI or the NSA.) which has classified equipment or information in it. If this technology was applied, the agency to whom the building belong to, could then strategically place devices inside the building that instructs a certain type of camera to automatically blur out sensitive areas. That way, the reporter wouldn't be able to accidentally divulge classified information about the facility (It has happened before if I'm not mistaken). In many of these buildings no cameras are allowed, period, so this could also be a reasonably safe way around that. It would probably be necessary for the agency to provide a camera of their own that has been properly checked out though. The only thing the reporter would need to bring would be a memory stick to hold the pictures.
  • by tylernt ( 581794 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @09:28PM (#11487363)
    "For example, let's assume a reporter was given temporary access to a government facility (e.g. one that belongs to say FBI or the NSA.) which has classified equipment or information in it. If this technology was applied, the agency to whom the building belong to, could then strategically place devices inside the building that instructs a certain type of camera to automatically blur out sensitive areas. That way, the reporter wouldn't be able to accidentally divulge classified information about the facility (It has happened before if I'm not mistaken). In many of these buildings no cameras are allowed, period, so this could also be a reasonably safe way around that. It would probably be necessary for the agency to provide a camera of their own that has been properly checked out though. The only thing the reporter would need to bring would be a memory stick to hold the pictures."

    That's a cool idea. Sorry I don't have mod points, but I can boost the visibility a bit. :^)
  • by boisepunk ( 764513 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @10:05PM (#11487718)
    Well, you have a valid point, but let's think rationally here. The left is always talking about racism and mistreatment of people, right? Some actual, some fantasized. This even goes as far to silence my voice if I'm making a gross generalization about a large group of people.

    My point is, aren't you making a really gross generalization yourself when you say that a large group of people (law enforcement) is somehow bad or worth degrading? Come on, you're only seeing one side. I happen to know a few people in law enforcement. They are ALL nice, decent, hard-working, and law-abiding citizens themselves. I, for one, do not want a state of chaos where there's no protection for me.
  • by Vince Mo'aluka ( 849715 ) on Thursday January 27, 2005 @08:09AM (#11490886)
    Expansion of police powers increases the danger of a police state forming. It does not guarantee it.

    So if police powers doubled tomorrow, we wouldn't actually be any closer to a police state, as long as (I assume) the police behave themselves?

    That line of thinking is exactly why most Americans still believe they have freedom, when basic human rights like due process have been thrown out the window. As long as it's not happening to you, it's not really happening, right? Never mind that the police can seize your vehicle just by accusing you of posessing drugs, with no actual proof -- if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about, right?

    Let's call a spade a spade. Expansion of police powers is *exactly* what makes a police state.

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