Poland Blocks European Software Patent Vote, For Now 372
Anonymous Brave Guy writes "Thanks to the Polish Minister of Science and Information Technology, Wlodzimierz Marcinski, Europe has dropped the current proposal for software patents. He made a special journey to Brussels to withdraw the proposal, basically in protest at the way the patents were being pushed through by the back door. Since the European presidency is about to pass to Luxembourg, this has effectively killed the idea, at least for the immediate future." More at FFII (Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure). This means that the promised move to delay actually worked.
Well (Score:5, Funny)
unwell (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:unwell (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:unwell (Score:3, Insightful)
As for the post to which you replied, you're both perpetuating the delusion that
Re:Well (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well (Score:5, Informative)
The thing is, Poles were always good at throwing away government that didn't satisfy the citizens, and because of that we have one of most "mature" democratic systems amongst countries east of Iron Curtain.
There was quite big initiative of Open-Source activists (grouped mainly around linux site 7thguard.net) to inform and press Polish politics to use all means possible to stop software patents. While our diplomats screwed some occasions up, this time they've shown (at least, one of ministers of science and informatics) they deserve the payment and power.
Re:Well (Score:3, Informative)
EU pressure? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:EU pressure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:EU pressure? (Score:2, Insightful)
For the rest of the world, not -every- American thinks that efforts to remain sovereign, avoid bad policies being shoved down your throats , and follow democratic principles makes you an enemy of freedom.
Thanks Poland for making the world a little bit more democratic. Clearly we all still have a lot of work to do.
Re:EU pressure? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ironicly the 'with us or against us' attitude is one of the things the stereotype-american is well known for (and often hated)....
Jeroen
Re:EU pressure? (Score:2)
I just mentioned that the US polutes (which it does, no doubt about that)....
Jeroen
Re:EU pressure? (Score:2)
Re:EU pressure? (Score:3, Informative)
CO2 metric tons/capita in 1996
Germany = 10,51
France = 6,20
USA = 19,99
In other words, the US has almost twice the CO2 output per person when compared to Germany.
As a side note: I can kind of agree that the Kyoto treaty is "designed to hurt the US economy" as some say. With pollution numbers like that, of course the US economy will be hurt! "Made your own bed..." and all that.
Re:EU pressure? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:atmospheric pressure (Score:3, Interesting)
The US "economy" (there a
Re:atmospheric pressure (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:EU pressure? (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all, European companies can obtain software patents in the US, thereby effectively eliminating possible competition from that part of the world, while establishing a market in the EU. Once these companies make the move over, they've got their protection through the USPTO racket scheme.
Second. US companies respecting the software patents of other US companies will not be able to develop products based on these patents (unless cross-licensing is in place), quite obviously. This will give them a huge disadvantage when trying to bring products to Europe: they won't be able to use particular techniques their local competitors in EU markets will be able to use, and all stuff they have protection for over in the US can be copied by this local competition.
So my guess is that when US companies are starting to hurt from this both inside the US and outside of it, there's going to be some reconsideration of patent law.
Re:EU pressure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Software patents have indeed existed for quite some time in the US. However, they have only been actively used in litigation recently (though they have had chilling effects via the threat of litigation for much longer
However, I can think of at least one instance where the lack of software patents abroad changed the political and corporate landscape in America: PGP Encryption. PGP was written at a time when the export of basic encryption software was banned in the US (it had to be printed in book form, then shipped overseas, and typed into a computer by volunteers over there). To make matters worse, the RSA algorithm was patented in the United States (but nowhere else). The software was exported in book form, made available on the net, and used widely both inside and outside the US. Had software patents existed in Europe at the time, it is likely that those making PGP available in Europe would have been sued, not so much as a means of stopping the patent violation, but as a means of enforcing America's "no encryption for them damn foreigners" policy through the back door of patent litigation...with the result that we'd all probably still be browsing with trivially crackable 40-bit encryption today.
Instead, PGP being loose in the world, and a dozen non-American encryption companies taking advantage of the lack of patents on RSA outside of the US, and the lack of competititon from US companies hamstrung by both the software patent on RSA and the governments "don't export encryption on pain of FBI interrogation" policy, led to the collapse of said policy.
The patent expired a few years later, but by then the point was largely moot, as a number of better algorithms had been developed in Europe and, as Europe had no software patents, were available for all to use freely.
Software patents, and the lack of them, played an important, if not dominant, part in these events, and as a result we no longer have dumbed-down "international" versions of our browsers, and gnuPG is available to everyone all over the world.
Now software patents are being used more and more in litigation, and the pressures the grandparent describes are beginning to be felt by American companies. The pro-patent lobby knows this, and they know they only have a limited amount of time to get software patents imposed on Europe, or these pressures will reach a sufficient point to wake up American corporations to the fact that patents, and software patents in particular, are not in their best interests.
I suspect 5 years will be enough for this to run its course
Re:I've understood differently (Score:4, Interesting)
The difference lies in the pressure from their home markets and the place where they can develop software. EU companies can safely develop their software for their home market undisturbed by considerations of patent law, and even get a few strategic patents in the US. Once they grow big enough to make the jump over the big pond, they have plenty of time to prepare themselves to cope with US patent law. They will also be big enough to start cross-licensing agreements etc. If need be, they can buy the licenses for the rights they miss. Only for the USA.
No such luck for US companies. They will have to cope with software patents from day one if they want to grow in their home market. This will hamper their growth and potentially kill their business early on. Furthermore, if they survive this and want to start selling their software abroad, they can not easily ignore patent law, even for software only sold outside of the United States. This because the software will be *developed* inside the US, and on this the patent holder can but a stop to it. Even if it's not sold in the US, patent law makes it illegal to actually manufacture it.
So if they want to make the move to the rest of the world with patent encumbered products, they'll have to move the development (design, architecture, etc.) to a place outside of the US as well. In practice they will cease being an US software company. Of course they can also obtain the necessary licenses for the patented software, but they will be competing in the rest of the world with local companies (that are not operating in the US) that do not have to pay this patent tax.
Most importantly however, certain types of software will simply not be made in the US. I personally was involved in a scheme like this, where in the early nineties I worked for a company that independently developed something that turned out to be patented in the US. The one that patented the general technique did not really build a business out of it, but the existence of the patent itself has kept all possible competition from the US at bay. Nobody would invest in anything remotely connected to it because there were litigation issues involved.
The only competitor this company has seen in the US that uses a technique similar to the one we've been using all this time went to great lengths to establish a patent of their own that was significantly different from the original patent. We however could safely develop the technique, use and sell it in Europe, grow, develop alternative techniques as a second plan, attract investors, while in the meantime we've collected sufficient prior art to annihilate this particular patent if need be. This company is now operating in the USA as well without any problem or direct competition as the US inventor has preemptively killed all US competition.
Re:EU pressure? (Score:2)
Thank Poland! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Thank Poland! (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, this is the second time Poland stalls this directive.
Let's see if we have others getting this through their thick skulls so we don't always have to rely on Poland.
Re:Thank Poland! (Score:2)
Re:Thank Poland! (Score:3, Informative)
There's actually a lot of pretty accents that go with it in Polish, which Slashdot doesn't allow to enter... but you can copy them from here [google.pl]
Re:Thank Poland! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Thank Poland! (Score:2)
Re:Thank Poland! (Score:2, Informative)
Poland. Saving Europe's ass since 1683.
Re:Thank Poland! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Thank Poland! (Score:2)
Re:Thank Poland! (Score:3, Interesting)
Good - For Now (Score:2, Informative)
Time for the obligatory troll - 7th post =P
Congrats to everyone make it happen... (Score:5, Insightful)
Thanks to open source, free software and small IT business advocates and lobbies who made it happen, everyone who tried to provide insightful information to diplomats and goverments.
Thank you
More at NoSoftwarePatents.com (Score:5, Informative)
This may be only a temporary reprieve, but it could also, quite possibly, be a sign that the tides may be changing in the Council. Let's all hope for the best, and do what we can to make it happen.
Temporary (Score:2)
I was going to say "we (Europeans)" but since this could influence the US then we should do what we can while there's still something we can do.
Thank you Poland. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's about time one of the countries in Europe had a government with a spine. I'm from the UK and ours doesn't, unless it's about introducing draconian ID card measures without listening to anyone and ignoring any consultation it required and dismissing it as irrelivant.
Go POLAND!!!
In Other News... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In Other News... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:In Other News... (Score:3, Informative)
Yes. *But* there are a lot less lawsuits in Canada and a lot less software patents. The later probably because the market is small. The former probably because you pay for defence of one you sue if you lose. Oh, and the judges tend to throw stuff out that is just frivolous (ie. judges are not elected here, they are appointed so they don't need money from corps. to help them get their jobs :P
Re:In Other News... (Score:2)
Research in Motion (RIM)
Nortel
Corel
ATI
Matrox
Celestica
OpenText
Hummingbird
Generally speaking Canadian companies that have software offerings tied to hardware sales do better than pure software plays (e.g. Corel). For a country roughly the size of California population-wise, its has a fairly decent domestic industry.
Since Canada does the vast majority of its trade with the US though, more progressive software patent laws d
as a future patent attorney (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Only Twice? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Over the corpse of White Poland lies the road to worldwide conflagration." - General Tukhachevsky, Red Army, 1920.
Re:Go Poland (Score:2)
However, I haven't heard lot of jokes about Poland or polish people, so it could be just a US thingy
Re:Go Poland (Score:3, Funny)
Nah this story's a dupe from yesterday
Re:Go Poland (Score:5, Funny)
Double-check your Hollywood History of the World, dude. You'll find it was a bunch of Americans.
Re:Go Poland (Score:2)
Double-check your Hollywood History of the World, dude. You'll find it was a bunch of Americans.
Look who's talking.
It was a Polish guy named Rejewski who first cracked it (partly). Other countries (including Germany) tought it was impossible, so they didn't even try. Rejewski's breaktrough was not enough, tough, and Poland cooperated with the French, who had inside information from a German
Re:Go Poland (Score:3, Interesting)
Ok, in that case, please accept my apologies. I interpreted you statement as "You should not believe what Hollywood movies say [assuming they give credit to Turing], because actually the Americ
Re:Go Poland (Score:2)
Re:Go Poland (Score:2)
The real question is...
Who do the Poles make fun of?
Re:Go Poland (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Go Poland (Score:5, Insightful)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna
"At about 5 in the afternoon, four cavalry groups, one of them German-Austrian and the other three Polish heavy cavalry (Hussars), 20,000 men in all, charged down the hills led personally by the Polish king.
In the confusion, they made straight for the Ottoman camps, while the Vienna garrison sallied out of its defenses and joined in the assault. In less than three hours, the battle was won, as the Turks beat a hasty retreat to the south and east. Although no one realized it at the time, the entire war was won that day, as well. The Ottomans fought on for another 16 years before giving up, losing vast territories in the process."
Re:Go Poland (Score:3, Interesting)
Polish jokes (Score:2, Insightful)
So I'm guessing that 1) weird names that aren't pronounced (in English!) like they are spelled 2) make mistakes when they speak English, like dropping definite articles, because their language doesn't h
Re:Polish jokes (Score:2)
Re:Polish jokes (Score:2, Interesting)
I heard a couple a day or two later but it really came to a halt with that. I don't know what it was like on the east cost, but here it was like just being a Pol meant your WERE and always would be stupid
Thank You Gen. Jaruzelski
Re:Go Poland (Score:3, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine [wikipedia.org]
Re:Go Poland (Score:2)
Re:Enigma (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Go Poland (Score:4, Interesting)
The enigma machine was a single component in a cipher system - the procedures by how the machine was used, how the rotors were selected, how the signal was set up were all other components.
The Poles did two things - they broke an early cipher system based on the enigma machine, and to do this they had to figure out some things that, as it happened, remained the same during WWII - particularly the wiring of the machine rotor interface.
They handed over all their work to both Bletchley Park and the French Intelligence Service because a) they were about to be invaded and b) recent changes in the cipher system used around enigma had changed, rendering their technique ineffective. The French didn't do much with it, but Alan Turing (amoungst many others) at Bletchley Park managed to figure out a systematic way of breaking any cipher system based on the enigma, and this intelligence - codenamed Ultra - was immensely significant during the war. Even with this head start there were still long periods during the war when enigma could not be broken due to system changes.
So without Poland it is fair to say that the Allies probably would not have broken enigma. Bletchley Park had basically given up pre-war, and they would not have caught up if Poland hadn't shown them the way. Equally, for all the acheivement of the Poles, their breakthrough would have been for nought as the newer cipher system had surpassed their resources even before the start of the war.
Re:Go Poland (Score:2)
Re:Go Poland (Score:2, Informative)
two things:
1. Polish broke the enigma, Polish created Bomba,
mechanized machine to speed up finding enigma keys
(or rather the wheel configurations)
Alan Turing continued the work when Poland got
invaded. Polish mathematicians responsible for
cracking enigma worked with Alan Turing
Great Britain and France both promised to help Poland
if we were to be invaded. Poland did more damage to
German forces in first month of World War 2 than
France and the Great Britain did for the fir
Why Poland ? (Score:4, Interesting)
Its unlikely that Poland would have done this as a pure solo effort, for fear of a backlash. There must have been others behind the scene agreeing with the position, with Poland making the defiant stance.
Does this mean that Poland acted as the front for a number of smaller countries. Or did a politician REALLY make a stand based on principle against all commers.
Re:Why Poland ? (Score:3, Informative)
However, Poland will not block the directive indefinitely. As soon as some changes are made to accomodate Poland's concerns (mostly lack of clarity in the directive), Poland is going to vote "yes" for the dir
Re:Why Poland ? (Score:2)
Re:Why Poland ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Government for the people? (Score:2, Insightful)
Great day :-) (Score:5, Interesting)
Cool, someone got it.
Here's hoping this action by Poland will make MORE clueless ministers go "huh? why did he feel it so necessary to stop that" and actually start reading up on the subject.
I fear the software giants will bring up this over and over again as long as EU says "no" though.
Sweet (Score:5, Funny)
LK
I wish I had mod points (Score:2)
What's happening? (Score:5, Funny)
Copyrights + Patent (Score:2)
Re:Copyrights + Patent (Score:3, Informative)
IANAL, but I thought that ideas were patented (such as an alogorithm, or 1 click shopping (groan), or a process to do something in a (supposedly) novel way). . . (I know, there are other things that can be patented but I don't think that software was one of them) Ideas that are implemented in software can be protected by patent so that another person cannot implement the same protected idea in another piece of software . . . but this protection of the idea, not the software.
Softw
Re:Copyrights + Patent (Score:2)
Arguments that a computer with a new program running in it is essentially a new machine have been rejected by the US Supreme Court, but accepted by
Re:Copyrights + Patent (Score:2)
Next Pres. of EU still part of Benelux Trio (Score:3)
Considering the fact that the Dutch hold the EU presidency for the remainder of the year (to be replaced by Lux. next year), is there any evidence that the Lux. presidency will take a different approach? I haven't been following the more subtle aspects of this issue, but Lux. is part of the Benelux trio (Belgium, Netherlands, and Luxembourg) that often ally themselves for leverage against some of the larger EU countries. Is it likely that Lux. will take a different stance on this issue or continue down the same path?
What about international agreements? (Score:3, Interesting)
What agreements are there between Europe and the U.S. concerning patent law?
I know the Berne Conventions have established parity between the U.S. and Europe regarding copyright law - essentially making U.S. copyrights enforceable in Europe and visa-versa. Are there similar agreements regarding patents?
If so, European developers may not be off the hook. Sure European companies won't be able to create software patents - but that wouldn't stop Microsoft or other U.S. companies from enforcing their patents.
Is there a lawyer (or someone that passes for one) in the house?
Re:What about international agreements? (Score:3, Informative)
There are several, but the best known is TRIPs. Many proponents claims it requires software patents, although it doesn't [ffii.org]. There are even ways to interpret the various international treaties in a way that they forbid software patents [codeliberty.org].
International discussion just beginning (Score:2)
the reverse (Score:2)
It's just the oposite. EU companies can still create softwarepatents abroad, but it forbids softwarepatents in the EU, even when USA companies would try to enforce it.
It comes down to: we can get patents there, but they can't get it here. All other objections to SWP aside, this alone should make it cle
Proud pole (Score:5, Insightful)
How the Dutch practice democracy these days... (Score:3, Informative)
For me this is the first really good thing coming out of the bigger EU. If you'd like to comment to the party of Brinkhorst, contact D66 [d66.nl] (Dutch, but you probably will understand it), his party, or mail them: international@d66.nl [mailto]. Here's a quote from their site [democrats.nl]:
US Patents hinder development (Score:5, Insightful)
The US has to get their patent system in order or it will collapse. The only real purpose for the patent system with software is to employ lawyers in the software business and to harass innovative companies competing with larger companies. Both are counterproductive in developing computer technologu and for that mater mankinds development.
The EU wants to develop their software business and do not want to let the likes of Microsoft come in and stifle growth with legal harassment. Even if you do no infringe, the mere fact a small company or individual is legally challenged is enough to put them out and under. The EU is doing it right by not letting in US legal problems into their system. A good recent example is how long and how far can SCO go before someone puts the execs in jail for extortion? Or perhaps the SEC for stock manipulation.
And since most software patents can find their root in previous works or ideas developed in public universities and not really inside the business they originated in, most are fraudulent patents. Patents were meant to protect the original developing company from infringement. Microsoft didn't invent windows, XEROX/PA did. MIT did X before Microsoft had an OS. So So by rights, any patent on Windows by Microsoft is derived work and not an original invention. These patents should be rejected.
Unless Canada and the US revise the law, I figure in 3-5 years most of our software will come from EU, India or China. Want a software development job, go to EU, India or China. Poland has the right idea, it will develop and keep their people at home.
Brinkhorst (Score:4, Insightful)
According to himself he's just afraid to lose face by changing his vote. But I think there's more to it. Any dutchies reading this, please let then know they are loosing votes over this issue.
http://www.d66.nl/contact
Wlodzimierz Marcinski - He understands IT! (Score:5, Interesting)
This is one politician i want to decide such matters as he actually has knowledge of what he is doing. Im so glad Poland is now in the EU
I wish we had politicians like him in Denmark when we decide IT politics
Agriculture and Fisheries?! (Score:3, Interesting)
The Software Patent Directive has been withdrawn from the Agenda of the Council of Agriculture and Fisheries.
Have I really not been paying enough attention to realize that when people said, "it's being pushed through the back door," that this is what they meant? Or does the EU have strange, overgrown branches of government (such that Agriculture and Fisheries really does control software rulings)? Or was this just a joke from the FFII?
Re:Agriculture and Fisheries?! (Score:4, Informative)
\begin{rant}
That my friends, is NOT democracy as it should be done. In Sweden there is at least a law demanding that documents treated by court and parliament should be (as long as they are not threating personal integrity (and some other corner cases (they have lawyers/legal council/paralegal/whatever it's called in english, y'know))) made public so that anyone and everyone can se what their representative is doing. That is the main thing I lack in the overly bureaucratic EU.
\end{rant}
Here's an idea for an anti-software-patent poster (Score:2)
Too bad I'm not an artist. It would be awesome. Does anyone know if it is copyrighted?
New EU member beats the old in "democracy". (Score:5, Insightful)
No matter what you think of software patents, everyone should be happy that someone in EU thinks democracy is worth taking serious.
Funny that it should be one of the new members, given the "superior" attitude most of the old members take.
Re:Dupe? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Patents... (Score:2)
Re:Woot! (Score:2)
Re:Woot! (Score:2)
Re:I almost feel bad. (Score:2)
-My former co-worker who was from Poland.
Re:Software patents make more sense than copyright (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Software patents make more sense than copyright (Score:3, Informative)
If you'd read some of the studies I pointed, you might find out. An example from the FTC study [ffii.org.uk] published in 2003:
hmm (Score:3, Insightful)
As for slashsoup:
"Society has concluded that the net effect of patents on technology is positive, not just less negative. Wh
Re:Software patents make more sense than copyright (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Software patents make more sense than copyright (Score:3, Insightful)
Unfortunately, here the story ends as Barnes and Noble found out.
Re:Who's the UK counterpart? (Score:3, Informative)