Supermarket Loyalty Cards Vs National ID Cards 480
A user writes "The BBC is running a story on a speech David Blunkett, the British Home Secretary, has given on ID cards and supermarket loyalty cards. He criticises the data protection arrangements for the loyalty cards whilst simultaneously (hypocritically?) promoting his own national ID card scheme, which is exempt from the Data Protection Act 1998. See also the UK Information Commissioner's (data protection and freedom of information watchdog) concerns about the ID card scheme."
Refuseniks Unite! (Score:4, Insightful)
When the cashier asks if I have a $NAME_OF_STORE Card, I answer with a strong, cheerful "Nope!" and it's been years since anybody pressed the issue any further. I assume based on their reactions that they get a fair number of customers declining (and probably with varying levels of politeness), yet I don't ever notice another customer not handing over their keychain for verification of eligibility to pay only full retail.
It's an odd thing... all these millions (are they into the billions yet?) of dollars spent to administer these programs, and I've yet to hear a single believable* justification for it.
* 'because we want to save you money!' is NOT believable. If that was their goal, they'd lower the prices and be done with it.
It's a sad time we live in (Score:2, Insightful)
You can swap grocery cards with no harm to anyone. (Score:4, Insightful)
I very much doubt that any country that institutes a national ID card system would let citizens swap cards.
See, the difference here (Score:4, Insightful)
Claim you lost your national ID card. Oh, sorry, you can't get on the plane.
Go and sign up for a supermarket card, or two or three, with false identity information. Claim you don't have a driver's license, or offer some flimsy piece of cardboard you printed up at home. There will be no negative repercussions for you in any way, at absolute worst one of these cards will get negated.
Go and sign up for a national ID card, or two or three, with false identity information. You have just committed a crime with a multi-year jail penalty.
Can you see why I might be more comfortable with the supermarket card than the government ID card?
the difference is loyalty cards are optional (Score:5, Insightful)
what exactly is the problem witb ID cards? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Blank loyalty card (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:what exactly is the problem witb ID cards? (Score:1, Insightful)
use the associated database to help round up his
"enemies". The next thing you know they are all in a mass grave someplace.
Re:what exactly is the problem witb ID cards? (Score:2, Insightful)
I have had an ID card for about my whole life and I practically never had to show it. If I recall correctly they made a photocopy when I opened a bank account, but that would be over 15 years ago ;-)
As for supermarket cards: I have two, both registred on my real name. One of them is nice and does make savings on the occasion. The other one (Auchan) is a bitch. I buy stuff there on a regular basis and I have never ever gotten discounts. Apparently the only way to get points on that card was to buy their store-branded stuff. Doesn't help me when I only usually buy DVD's or PS2 games there.
Re:Refuseniks Unite! (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, I don't care. They can track whatever they want, link it up to my name or whatever. It's a deal *I* agreed to ( because, mainly, I can't think of how they can use that information in a bad way ),and I get something out of doing nothing, which is pretty sweet.
However. National ID cards are NOT something I'd agree to, because in order for something like that to be effective, you'd have to mandate their use. And that means we'd be forcing many people, myself include, into using something they didn't agree to.
Ahem, they do not suck. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm one of those "Evil" customers, I value shop. I buy on sale, buy the 2 for 1 sales, and never by name brands, unless its in bulk. Costco gives you money back on the excutive account, more than the cost of the account, so its worth it to shop there for bulk items.
I was in a little discussion about shopping with a co-worker, after a few minutes here is what we he said about shopping and my answers.
* Shopping all over takes time.
I shop at 3 stores, Costco for most stuff, Safeway and the local corner market. The corner market always sell milk for 1.99 the local markets dont. Costco has 2 for 3.50, but longer lines, so during the week, the basics are the local stores and the quicky market.
I found our markets in best prices in prices as Costco, Safeway, Albertsons, QFC and Fred Myers tie. This is my local area, in other areas I noticed Albertsons and Fredmyers are cheaper. So it depends on where you live. The area is has lots of Safeway generic product producers, (Dairygold, etc), so icecream is cheaper.
Safeway comes out ahead with sales alone, but if you use the membershipcard you 10-20% if you shop right. 2 for 1 prices, and discount's are amazing.
* Brand names over generics
This is tricky, on sale items most are brand names. But normally, stuff like bagged cereal are much cheaper, and with a club card even less. 2 for 3.50, 16 ounce bags is better than a 24 ounce box for 4 bux. And if they have the 32 ounce bags for 3.99 thats even better.
Store brands are also very high quality, you buy store meat/milk/wheat/product products, why not store boxed goods?
I dont see the reason for people to give up 10-20% savings because they wont use a club card, and then complain about privacy then still rent videos at blockbuster, have multiple accounts with other merchants.
Would you give up 20% of your pay to feel secure, but not be secure? National ID's are like this, its just a false sense of security. The 9-11 terrorists had real ID's. They didnt fake a thing.
They Ain't Doin' This For OUR Benefit! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:what exactly is the problem witb ID cards? (Score:2, Insightful)
Arguments I've heard in the UK are "because in France, they have to carry ID cards". I hate to say it, but that is not a valid excuse, even with today's Freedom Fries (not an issue with chips, though
In the US, there is a de-facto national ID: the social security number. Get a passport, show SSN. Get a driver's license, show SSN. Open/use a bank account, show SSN. Accept the "you are pre-approved for up to $100,000 credit Schmold Gold Card", supply your SSN.
The UK is not as bad as this. You need your NI number for jobs. To open a bank account, you need photographic ID. But wait, the only legitimate photographic ID is state issued: passport, university ID, shotgun license, etc.
Yes, the government is going to track your each and every move. Sure. Whatever. You go right on believing that. Meanwhile Tesco know that I've bought their own brand toothpaste in the last quarter because their sending me discount vouchers for Blender-Dent toothpaste.
I don't like being forced to do anything by any state authority. But I have to pay my TV license, I have to drive, I have to use the health system, I have to work (or collect dole money). Just because you haven't had to carry an ID before and just because France does it does not make it wrong, does it? Does it actually give the state more authority than it has previously enjoyed? Will they actually take the effort to monitor you? (Ok, so may Blunkett will make the effort, but he won't be Home Secretary for ever).
Data Mining (Score:2, Insightful)
AUTO INSURANCE AGENT: "Sorry Mr. Smith, but we see by your grocery store records that you buy lots of beer and wine. You are too great a risk of being a drunk driver. We are canceling your auto insurance."
PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: "So, Mr. Smith, according to your grocery store records, you purchased a case of beer six hours before the car accident. Isn't it true you were driving while intoxicated?"
RENTAL CAR AGENT:
CREDIT BUREAU AGENT:
DRIVER'S LICENSE AGENT:
CURRENT EMPLOYER:
POTENTIAL EMPLOYER:
FBI AGENT:
RIAA AGENT:
And so it goes, and so it goes on...
Re:what exactly is the problem witb ID cards? (Score:5, Insightful)
But mainly it's a lack of trust. This is the government who wanted to open the criminal databases to local councils, and fire services, ambulance services and so on, for no apparently good reason. The proposed scheme a central database of your fingerprints, retina scans and facial pictures. Now why? If the card is simply to prove identity then all you need is this data encoded on the card and a unique card ID. The card ID is checked through a central database to show the card is valid, then the encoded biometrics can be checked locally. There's no need for a government database of fingerprints, but that's what they're pushing for.
Of course there's the lying about the security of biometrics, and the popularity of the idea. The government got caught out rejecting every single emailed objection, because they were emailed and not written.
Lets not forget the cost overun of every single large government IT project over the last 20 years as well.
And finally why the hell should I have to pay for something the government says I must have? If it's a must have, fund it yourself. Why should I pay for the government to take my fingerprints, store them and share them globally on demand? Blunkett said it won't cost the tax payer anything because it's self financing. Nice language, it will cost us to get it and we don't have a choice, but hey, it's not a tax. No siree!
Re:It's a sad time we live in (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, picture a place like China, North Korea, or Cuba. Imagine if everyone was implanted with one of these bastardly little devices when they are born and the government made no attempt to limit the range which they work at. Now imagine how easy you just made it keep people inside your nation and track their every movement. Throw up detectors around your border and anyone not authorized to cross sounds a pile of alarms. Granted, I am sure people will find a way around it - they always do, but it makes it even uglier for the people trying to escape these nations. Combine tracking with some sick pattern recognition software and a pile of super computers and you can probably create a government with near perfect detection of 'subversive' activities.
Why should *they* have to pay, though? (Score:4, Insightful)
So what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is it that everybody thinks the most evil thing about loyalty cards is that they can match your buying habits with your name? You think they really CARE what your name is?
But here's the thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok well if a store has too much of something in inventory and needs to get rid of it, or if they want to offer a loss leader (an item they sell at a loss to entice you to come in and buy stuff), but only to card members, that's you saving money. They are offering a discount over what the normal price is for an item.
However if they take an item that they get plenty of sales on, jack the price and then offer the old price as the card member price, then you are just not getting ripped off. They don't need to charge the higher price normally, they just jack it up to make you feel like you are getting a discount.
Many items fall in this cateogry. Where I often shop, meat is ALWAYS on sale with the discount card. Always. Well look, I know how it goes with meat sales. They do a lot of it, it's fairly predictable, and they prep it fresh in the deli every day. They are not alwys overstocked on meat, and the price is not low enough to be a loss leader.
That's the problem people have with these. When Albertsons switched to a card, I didn't notice things get cheaper on a whole. Seems like the regular prices just slid up over time and the "discount" prices.
This is why people hate them. If they really did nothing but offer lower than normal prices, I'd say good for them. However it's usually just a scam to make you feel like you are saving money.
Re:Forget the stupid cards, give me service! (Score:2, Insightful)
I get the same price as anyone else and I don't have my shopping patterns tracked. The person behind me doesn't mind because to them they are getting 'free points'. Everyone is happy.
It's not the ID card itself... (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with the proposed ID card is that it will be a smart card, with biometric information on it, as well as other information about me. About the only person who *won't* have access to that information is *me*. I'm not entirely happy about that.
Re:what exactly is the problem witb ID cards? (Score:2, Insightful)
It makes me sick to my stomach to read the robotic stock replies, "I havent got anything to hide", "They already use SSN, so why not", and all of these other assemply line arguments from these pathetic drones who couldnt think themeselvs out of a paper bag. They are unprincipled, stupid and are very much the cause of the problem, because if they refused to comply with a national ID card scheme, ANY scheme, it would die instantly. The ones I despise the most are the inured from birth saying, "It doesnt hurt me, Im used to it".
Let me spell it out for you; The State is not the definer of your identity. You do not even have one sole identity that is an artificial idea created by the state; people have reinvented themselvs since man walked on two legs; what you call yourself in your interaction with anyone else is your afffair, and it is not the right of the state to indellably brand you with a single identity, which of course, is entirely for their own purposes.
Anyone that acceps the state being the arbiter of their identity is a servant, a piece of property, and should be flushed down the toliet with the rest of the shit.
Re:what exactly is the problem witb ID cards? (Score:3, Insightful)
What were you doing that required you to prove your identity to the police?
Having lived in the UK for a few years, I couldn't help but get the impression that the point in this discussion is that "I have the right to hide who I am from anyone"
I think you've got that the wrong way round. I've lived in the UK all my life, and I think the main objection is not that we have the right to remain anonymous, but that other people do not have the right to demand that we identify ourselves. That's a subtle difference, but an important one, I think.
There's also the question of usage - if it's to be of any practical use in crime fighting (as it's supposed to be), then it becomes mandatory to produce it when challenged. That effectively means that it's mandatory to carry it with you. That means that you're suddenly not only forced to carry a card with you at all times, you're also somewhat restricted in what you can wear - no pockets or bag to put it in? Better hope you're not challenged... Okay, so that's verging on the ridiculous, but what if you lose it, or you're mugged and it's stolen? Suddenly you're forced to prove that you have a legitimate reason for not carrying it.
There's also the question of need. I'm 30 years old, and have *never* had *any* trouble proving my identity. What does the card gain me? I know what it costs me - potentially some small freedoms, definitely some money, but what does it *gain* me?
The government and its agencies are not a privately owned supermarket who doesn't need to know who I am to accept me as a customer...
That's another part of the problem - why doesn't my government trust me? I have it on excellent authority that the majority of people in this country are law-abiding (or, as he put it with a wry smile, "at least haven't been caught yet"). Why does the government feel that it cannot trust me? It has no reason not to - I've been stopped by the police three times in my life. Once for riding at night without lights on my bike when I was a teenager, once while at uni when a friend I was with decided to run off with a bollard from some traffic works, and once as part of a random stop and search anti-terrorism measure. I've never had a speeding ticket, parking ticket, or anything. How long do I have to be law abiding for to earn my government's trust?
Finally, there's the inevitable question of scope creep. We've already seen this attempted with the RIP Act. A couple of years ago, the number of government agencies that could demand information under the Act was going to be extended. This extension would have meant that local councils could have invoked powers under the Act. I can see the same sort of things happening here - at first they're mandatory to have but not to carry, then they're practically mandatory to carry as not being able to produce one when challenged is deemed suspicious. Finally, they're mandatory to carry and failure to produce one earns you a caution and/or (small) on the spot fine.
I can already prove who I am. The police have no need or right to know my identity as long as I don't draw attention to myself in some way (legally speaking - breaking the law, looking as though I'm going to, etc). What do I get for my money?
Do as I say... (Score:3, Insightful)
I would have no objection to using ID cards if the privacy laws in the UK were as strong as in, say, Germany. It would have made the nightmare of opening a UK bank account disappear. As it is, I had to provide proof of a paid utility bill (in my name), which required getting an apartment which required references and (usually) proof of a bank account...
But with BMB cracking the whip, you can be absolutely certain that national ID cards will be used to track far more than just proof of identity. The UK is the most secretive country in the Western world. Be afraid if this proposal (for which you pay 5 times as much as in Germany, Switzerland etc.) happens. Be very afraid.
Civil liberties lost = money saved? (Score:2, Insightful)
Mr Blunkett said the ID card plan added little costs to what was already being done in creating a database for passports holding biometric details such as iris scans and fingerprints.
Such a database would prevent people travelling to America having to pay $100 on every visit for a biometric visa, he suggested.
So... Blunkett's argument for introducing a national ID card which drastically improves the government's tools for invading the privacy of its citizens is that it will save you money when visiting the U.S.A. - a country that is already in the process of invading its citizens' privacy far more effectively than Blunkett's little scheme would.
What that boils down to is "Give up most of your privacy, so you can go visit a country which demands that you give up all of your privacy."
I've got a better idea: forget the ID cards, and forget visiting the U.S.A. - go someplace sane and free, instead.
Supermarket cards are just like ID cards? Riiight! (Score:4, Insightful)
Store cards are subject to the Data Protection Act; Blunkettcards will run a coach and horses through the protection - so much so they'll probably have to amend the DPA (and not in our favour).
Apart from being card-shaped and having my name on them there is nothing in common between the two. Blinky is now trying the soft-sell; after scaring us silly with the threat that unless we have ID cards we'll all be blown up by terrorists; he's now trying the line that they aren't so very different from the cards we have in our wallet. When they are.
And expect copious repetitions of 'those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear.', which as any five-year old can tell you is disproved by 'doesn't that rather depend on who's asking the questions?'
This is all going to be rammed through Parliament in time for a May General Election (which is only needed so they can get it out of the way before announcing tax increases). The government will call for all parties to come together to fight the menace of [insert suitable scare here].
Any party who objects to ID cards, or tries to drag it out in committee will be called 'soft on crime'. Which is the last thing they want before an election now that the tabloids and the Home Secretary have made everyone petrified of a largely imaginary crime wave.
Meanwhile the government will be whipping its own backbenchers and telling them 'don't rock the boat - remember there's a historic third term up for grabs'. They'll get it through the Commons on a massive majority and then bully the Lords into compliance.
If the Lords object, well last night showed that the government will use the Parliament Act 1949 for pretty much any purpose.
The only way to stop this madness (apart from hoping the same people who programmed the Child Support Agency computers are doing ID cards) is for people in Labour constituencies to contact their MP and say that their vote is conditional on the MP opposing the ID card legislation.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Re:what exactly is the problem witb ID cards? (Score:3, Insightful)
I was driving my mom's car and got pulled over because one of the lights had failed, for example.
That's another part of the problem - why doesn't my government trust me?
Maybe it's because you could be anyone, not even a citizen of your country - why *should* they trust you? I don't usually trust random strangers coming to my door, in fact if they do, it's quite possible I ask them to identify themselves or go away and leave me alone. The same thing I would expect from my government. And yes, I do realize that these things can be abused - but so can other things and institutions and nobody objects to having them (well, except for a few people who object to everything
Re:Forget the stupid cards, give me service! (Score:3, Insightful)
Interestingly enough, the small "mom and pop" locally owned grocer in my town has the card, while the big box store does not. I was only in the local store once. If they need a card they don't need my business.
Wal-Mart and Home Depot are other big (bigger than either grocer in my town) names that come to mind that don't have the stupid card. Both give good prices without the expense of tracking my data. (quality is a different matter, but I can judge that myself)
Will Blunkett and his love-child have an ID card? (Score:1, Insightful)
Labour are less up front than most terrorists.
Wow! Free Toaster (Score:3, Insightful)
John Q: This is an outrage, I demand my right to privacy!
Pitch: Sir would you like to win a free toaster?
John Q: Wow! free toaster, where do I sign up?
Re:False Data (Score:3, Insightful)
Are cards for watching or molding. . ? (Score:3, Insightful)
As long as we are comfortable with the fact that if somebody in the right office wants to pull up our file, they can know EVERYTHING about us on a whim. --This does not just include what we do and when we do it, but all the clever things which can be learned from that data. --Psyche profiles and all the most likely reactions a person will have to any given stimulus at any given time. --Or if the person is the sort who is likely to resist the control system by using one card among nine different people.
It's about fear and control. 'They' are scared of losing control, and so always seek more and more. 'They' want people neatly labeled in their individual boxes, doing exactly what they want us to be doing.
If we never find being labeled or being put in boxes offensive, then we are probably never going to be considered a threat, which should make life easy. --Except it doesn't work that way. Once we have been put in boxes, how do they know we will stay there? What if we wake up one day and decide that we don't like our boxes? This is a fearful thought, which makes the controllers want to apply even more control. The target and memories of what was once normal are always in motion.
The more a person uses a certain set of thoughts and behavior templates, the more 'burned in' the synaptic pathways become. This is how the brain works, and this is how habits are formed. Fear is habitual, and thus cannot ever be satisfied; when one is pre-disposed to fearing being on the 'wrong' side of the line, then it does not matter how far the line is moved, the line itself remains and there is always a 'wrong' side. This drives the desire for ever increasing amounts of control.
'Living' for the average human has become increasingly doing only pre-approved things, thinking only pre-approved thoughts, and generally staying within the pre-set boundaries created by our masters. The world isn't the way it is through random chance. --Just because we were born into slavery doesn't make it natural or okay. There is so much more out there! --But ignorance is bliss. Amazingly, most people are content to flush away all their health and youth and energy into stupid jobs, working too many hours a day, calling 'entertainment' the mind-numbing pap which is most film, television and popular distraction.
--And when management decides it's time for us to lose our jobs and seek out of default and desperation positions with the military (carrying rifles through the desert), most of us think, "Oh well. I guess that's just how it is". We unwittingly participate in hundreds of social engineering stress-tests delivered via media, food, medicines and artificially generated sickness and artificially generated war. --Indeed, much of the misery in our lives has been deliberately fabricated.
Among those who know, there is a subject which is called, "The Topic of Topics", or "The Predator". There are those who 'eat' human misery, who don't want us to look at the UFO's. --There is such thing as spiritual energy, and like any energy, it can bled off and used to feed other things. But these are not thoughts cattle are supposed to have. So we must stay in our boxes, watch our televisions and not talk too much.
How much personal debt do people currently have? How often do they get sick? How much do we really think for ourselves? When was the last time anybody was in a satisfying relationship? How much of You is really You and not some behavioral subroutine we saw on 'Friends' or 'Survivor'?
For control measures and artificial stimuli to be administered, the system also requires numerous methods of monitoring and gatheri
Re:Don't let the terrorists win (Score:3, Insightful)
All these cards are used to 'track' you in some form or fashion, and are used to allow you access to certain services. A store loyalty card is really no different, except the issuer is not a government, insurance company, credit card company, or a bank. As for a national identification card, its just a different form of passport or drivers licence/birth certificate that is already required for many things.
You are all fools (Here's why) (Score:3, Insightful)
Rule #1: You can only bitch if you only ever pay cash.
Rule #2: Use loyalty cards. The stores are out to get you to spend more. Indirectly, they make themselves more helpful to you by tracking consumer trends. This HELPS YOU.
Rule #3: (If you are so paranoid) Use a fake name and address (but keep it local) Use a made-up address on your street, with a made up name. But keep it in the same zip! They really don't verify the names or addresses. They just want local stats.