Supermarket Loyalty Cards Vs National ID Cards

A user writes "The BBC is running a story on a speech David Blunkett, the British Home Secretary, has given on ID cards and supermarket loyalty cards. He criticises the data protection arrangements for the loyalty cards whilst simultaneously (hypocritically?) promoting his own national ID card scheme, which is exempt from the Data Protection Act 1998. See also the UK Information Commissioner's (data protection and freedom of information watchdog) concerns about the ID card scheme."

Not Interesting (DON'T CLICK)

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't make the same mistake of clicking on the link that I did, unless you want to see a pig fucking a girl.

It'll go nicely with the cameras

[Magickcat]

Perhaps the Government ID cards will match nicely with the government's 2.5 million video survelliance cameras [bbc.co.uk].

Of course, if these sorts of measures really worked, there wouldn't be a lunatic sucessfully breaking into Buckingham palace every six months or so.

The difference between a supermarket loyalty......

[Antony-Kyre]

The difference between a supermarket loyalty card and a National ID card is this.

You can lie about the info on the supermarket loyalty card, by putting a fake phone number, address, whatever, no big deal, and I don't think the supermarket will mind. I think the main purpose of those membership cards is so they know how much stuff someone buys, when, etc., etc., giving them the demographic info so they can better stock stuff and whatnot.

Right now we have State ID Cards (whether simply identification or drivers' licenses). Even if we did go to National ID Cards, they may not be any different. Let me say this. Under NO circumstances implant those RFID microchips. Cause there's too much fear over the issue of GPS tracking and such. By the way, I think we should just leave it up to the state level. Let us have an United States of American with each state creating their own laws and such, under our federal documents that have worked for us for so long.

Re:It'll go nicely with the cameras

[blowdart]

You realise that the vast majority of those cameras are privatly owned, right? 2.5 million government cameras is simply wrong.

Re:WTF

[arivanov]

While I am allergic to blunkettism, I have to admit that his Blunkettness has a valid point. He was not referring to just any card. He was referring to the Nectar. This card has been invented as a specific mean to violate most of the Data Protection and Consumer Protection legislation in the UK. It is not just a store card. Your shopping habits and purchase information are shared by:

• Nearly half of the insurance brokers in the UK. Yep. No other country has it - verification of your lifestyle by insurers via your shopping habits.
• British Petroleum. So the insurers can derive information on how you really drive and how much, not what you submitted when applying.
• Major banks including Barkleys which in total hold 30-40% of the consumer account market.
• So on so fourth.

Basically, if you use it you line up all of your life in front of nearly all of the most disgusting marketing and data mining lowlife in the UK. 1984 and Blunkett ideas are pale by comparison.

supermarket cards

[Anonymous Coward]

the big value to the stores are knowing what items are bought together and what the primary items are versus the secondary, ie. what you go to the store for (regular items) vs. what you happen to pick up there (irregular).

they pool all this information and while it may be interesting for them to have your actual name and address for correlational (sp?) purposes (think property records for example), it's far more valuable for them to know what items are sold together than anything else. (There was a Wal-Mart article on this a few days ago in the NYT)

As far as privacy, honestly, I don't get what the big deal is? Actually now that I think about it, I don't get what the big deal about any of the privacy is really. I understand search/seizure and such fun things, but I don't really understand supermarket check out privacy? Don't use the card. Don't use a credit card. Don't go to the store.

It seems to me people have an unrealistic expectation of privacy, like the article earlier about laws for cell phone cameras. If you go out in public dressed in such a way that you don't want to be photographed, then you should think about how you dress. In that case, I would say the problem is excessive modesty just as much as intrusion of privacy.

In the supermarket case, I would say don't use the card or don't go to the store. There are lots of mom and pop stores around. Oh but they're more expensive? Part of the reason the supermarkets can offer such cheap prices is that they are fine tuning their supply chain with active customer data. The closer they can match supply to demand, the more efficient they run, the less $ is wasted the the more savings they can pass on (which is 1/2 the point, the other 1/2 is increased profits, but hey, 1/2 is better than none).

In any event, the only person you really have to protect yourself from is the Corporation of the US/UK government as a supermarket isn't going to use your data to imprison you (at least not yet, there may come a day when all serial killers cards are seen buying copius amounts of spam, hot sauce and jaggermiester...).

Until they, take the savings or do what my old roommates and I do. 9 of us still all use the same card... as a phone number... ensuring the safeway computer is seeing both genders buying products across the board from cheap store brand to expensive organics across four states... if they're coders worth his weight in salt, there has to be some kind of a proximity filter... only three of us live within three blocks.

Ha safeway... all your savings are belong to us; in soviet russia, safeway card discounts you; and I for one welcome our new confusing food store shopper overlords.

I r00t3d the frozen food section and i p0wnz all the waffles; where's your firewall now bitch?

[e-mail]

Re:what exactly is the problem witb ID cards?

[DB'C]

Under the current law in the UK, the police can only require you to identify yourself if arresting you and they can only arrest you if you have committed a crime.

Tesco don't know what I buy since I pay cash. I also can choose to buy my toothpaste elsewhere. I am not compelled to shop traceably with anyone.

You don't have to pay for a TV license, only if you want a TV. You don't have to drive, you can walk, take the bus, take a taxi. You can use private health care.

It is wrong, it does give the state more authority (requiring me to behave in a manner I don't want to). They will have a DB that monitors all my transactions with them, and the problem isn't David Blunkett, the problem is the infrastucture will be abusable by someone who is worse.

I respect your freedom to choose to ID yourself to the state. Do you respect my freedom to not do so. No, I didn't think so.

You're the one choosing the side of tyranny.

Re:They Ain't Doin' This For OUR Benefit!

[Tezkah]

Because they wouldn't do it to *lose* money, you're not going to *save* money?

You sure showed them! They probably don't make money off of the cards themselves, but the "loyalty" of "oh, I'm in the club, and this store gives me discounts" probably makes up for any cost of cards.

What's changed Mr Blunkett?

[MartinG]

"it is important that we do not pretend that an entitlement card would be an overwhelming factor in combating international terrorism" - David Blunkett 3 July 2002.

Re:Interesting

[badfish99]

You've never bought beer in England, have you? It's ever so easy to get it with no ID, as long as you look more than about 14. Any we don't have to carry a driver's licence when driving, either. Oh, and there is no "customs" to pass through in Europe. And most other European counties have dropped the passport checks too.

Re:False Data

[Frankie70]

The first time you use your debit card or credit card with the card, both of them get linked & they have your real details.

Re:So what's the difference?

[isorox]

The cheque isn't linked to the purchase though. They know you bought something for £13.56, they may even know it was sometime between 12:00 and 18:00 when Mary was on shift on checkout 12, they may know that the KY jelly and a mars bar was sold at 16:13 for £13.56 but they could only link it up with your account if you were the only person spending £13.56, and they bothered to input the details of each cheque into the system, then they will be able to track you, but it's harder then swiping your credit card.

UK government and computers don't mix

[lga]

(apart from hoping the same people who programmed the Child Support Agency computers are doing ID cards)

I think the government has proven time and time again that it simply cannot do large computer systems. Or even small computer systems.

Child support agency: failed.
Passport agency: failed
National Health Service: failed
Firearms register (A pitifully small database in this country!): failed

Given the history of failure of large and small computer systems commisioned by the government, I have every expectation that they will be completely unable to build the National Identity Register (NIR) for ID cards.

Re:WTF

[blowdart]

Just so you're informed here is, according to the register [theregister.co.uk] a summary of the information to be stored in the National ID database

• Personal information. Full name; date of birth; place of birth; gender; principal address in the UK; all other addresses in the UK.
• Identifying information. Photograph; iris data; fingerprint.
• Residential status. Nationality; entitlement to remain in UK; terms and conditions of entitlement.
• Personal reference numbers. National identity number; number of any ID card; national insurance number; number of any immigration document related to subject; passport number (UK); passport number (non-UK); number of any other passport-type document; number of any non-UK ID card; any reference number connected with application to enter or stay in the UK; work permit number; number of any designated document not covered already; date of expiry or period of validity of such documents.
• Record history. Information covered above that has been previously recorded in the register; particulars of changes affecting that information and changes made to entry in the register; date of death.
• Registration history. Date of every application made for registration; date of every application for a modification of entry; date of every application confirming contents of entry; particulars of every ID card issued; whether such card is in force, and if not, why not; particulars of every individual who has countersigned an ID card or designated document application.
• Validation information. Information provided in connection with every application to be entered in the register, for the modification of an entry, or for the issue of an ID card; information provided in connection with every application confirming entry in the register; steps taken in connection with verifying an application; steps taken to ensure entry is complete, up to date and accurate; particulars of notifications related to changes; particulars of notifications relating to loss or damage; particulars of any requirement by Secretary of State for individual to surrender card.
• Security information. Personal identification number; password or code; security questions and answers.
• Access records. Details of when a record was accessed and by whom; details of information on the individual disclosed; details of steps taken to modify entry, issue or cancel card, or requiring surrender of card; information for identifying any individual who took such steps.