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Marvel Sues City of Heroes Makers 186
Walkiry (and many, many others) writes "In yet another copyright bickering lawsuit, Marvel is suing NCSoft and Cryptic Studios over their MMORPG City of Heroes due to copyright infringement, apparently because of the costume creator. "Marvel argues that the game's character creation engine easily allows players to design characters that are virtual copies of its own superheros, including 'The Incredible Hulk'. Marvel seeks unspecified damages and an injunction against the two companies to stop using its characters." There are quite a few people suspicious that this is nothing but an effort by Marvel to undermine Cryptic Studios' successful game to prepare for the launch of their own comic book based MMORPG." USA Today has the story as well.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A new low. (Score:2)
Re:A new low. (Score:2)
Re:A new low. (Score:3, Insightful)
That might be a little harsh.
... especially since unless you accept that there are certain visual cues which automatically mean X-men.
Without knowing how the characters are generated (TFA is a little vague), if there are macros which will use the same patterns as the X-Men stuff, that might be a little dodgy
For example:
Re:A new low. (Score:4, Informative)
Then you pick your character's appearance. There are a few body types including big bulky monster-sized guys (which I assume Marvel has not trademarked, Hulk being a Jekyll/Hyde homage/retelling already), which don't start out green or with purple pants. Again, there are people who use the engine's customization options to mimic their favorite hero, and of course the ones with simpler costumes (e.g. the Hulk wears... purple pants) are significantly simpler to copy than many other characters, the in-game copies of which are recognizable mainly because Marvel, DC, etc. have indeed done great jobs with making their trademarked costumes universally recognizable to the point where the in-game copes, which often have to improvise with incorrect patterns, equipment, and so on (because CoH does NOT actively try to allow creation of already trademarked characters) are still recognizable as the homages that they are.
Re:A new low. (Score:4, Funny)
Costume Creator: NO CAPES!
Re:A new low. (Score:2)
Re:A new low. (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, all that being said, NCSoft does NOT provide templates for making ripoff characters easily (like being able to choose "Wolverine yellow/blue" or "Wolverine brown") and a player has to go to some effort to make a ripoff character - in most cases, it would be far easier to make an original design. Further, they specify in the terms of service that ripoff characters are not permitted, and when they are reported/caught they are forced to change names and/or costumes.
I don't know if Marvel is trying to shut CoH down or cripple it (like by making NCSoft remove particular costume traits so that customers can no longer make costumes that look like Marvel heroes). It seems to me that if Cryptic and company are making a good faith effort to police the ripoffs, that SHOULD be enough to get them off the hook. Of course, nobody ever said the law always made sense.
Re:A new low. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:A new low. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A new low. (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh noes! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2, Insightful)
The elite may freely violate copyright? (Score:4, Insightful)
In fact, neither case is correct, and the horrible nonlogic of damaging a general purpose system with the goal of restricting certain things is stupid.
To take this from the other side, if Marvel wins this terrible case, then that implies that creating a character in City of Heroes is akin to creating one in a comic book- so if your guy has an orange cape and yellow tights and black hair, maybe you can sue someone who introduces such a character in comic books. Meaning that, if you want to create a comic book with an entirely new character, you can't just check the history of comics, you have to access the CoH (and any other relevant MMORG) database to make sure you aren't "infringing" on a similar design that some kid in Kansas came up with at 2 AM on pot.
Re:The elite may freely violate copyright? (Score:2)
If someone who can draw the Hulk does
If I (who can't draw for shit), draw a picture that only I know was intended to look like the Hulk, and then sell that 'non-likeness' under the name 'Kluh', chances are I will NEVER be convicted of copyri
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
CoH, however, certainly provides mechanics for the production of a finite set of character combinations. I to have logged a few hundred hours in CoH and I agree
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
If I buy a set of crayons and make a drawing of Spiderman, how is that different than creating a Spider-man like character in the game?
Aren't the mechanics there in both cases? Aren't we talking about limited combinations leading to infinite posibilites?
Re:Oh noes! (Score:4, Informative)
And then I read this:
The New York-based company also took issue with the ability of players to go so far as to name their superhero creations after Marvel comic book characters.
And realized Marvel is completely out to lunch on this. They claim that CoH is infringing IP because they didn't disallow people from typing in the specific, trademarked names? Should CoH keep a database of every trademarked name and lock them out as character names? "Sorry, you can't be Kroger, that name is already taken. [krogers.com]"
Re:Oh noes! (Score:5, Interesting)
It gets better, they actually do disallow them. Cryptic sent a request to Marvel, DC and others for a list of trademarked stuff they wanted banned, and you won't be able to name your character just "Hulk" or "Superman", because that's filtered.
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
Re:Oh noes! (Score:5, Informative)
Mind you, when I first started playing, there were a lot of comic-book clones, but they are extremely rarer now because most players, it seems, would rather make something that is uniquely theirs rather then be the 18th or 63rd Tick rip-off.
Kierthos
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2, Insightful)
I'll have to admit when I first started playing the game I made a DBZ character and there WERE a lot of wolverine clones out there, but none came anywhere close to the level of detail that Marvel characters have.
Also, if I'm not mistaken there are certain names that you cannot use even though there are no characters using them. One that comes to mind is "Lucky".
I hate that laws
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
MARVEL SUES MUD USER
Disney today brought an IP lawsuit against user Wolverine179, who not only used Marvel's copyrighted character's name in an internet chatroom designed to facilitate roleplay, but also used many of that character's trademark lines.
--Stephen
Re:Oh noes! (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure whether that link will work for non-subscribers to the game, so here's the relevant bit:
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
WTF are you talking about? Ok, I can kindof see how giving yourself sideburns could be using a Bic to "draw pictures extremely similar" to Wolverine, but are you saying that every clean-shaven guy is infringing on the Hulk trademark??!
Or are you talking about lighting cigars? That's stupid!
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
Re:Oh noes! (Score:3, Interesting)
Think back to the Napster case and the Grokster case. Napster was destroyed in court, whereas Grokster has (so far) survived. The key difference was that Napster had centralized servers, and could therefore check to see whether infringement was occurring, and could act to stop it. Grokster could not since they made the software, but didn't have any involvemen
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
Proving that they can ban things only makes it worse. But remember, if this is a copyright suit, then a list of trademarked names is irrelevant. Especially since names aren't copyrightable.
You are right though, in that the Napster decision, following Sony, won't impute knowledge for contributory liability purposes without there being actual knowledge. But having done so, failure to remove such infringing material is contr
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
Re:Oh noes! (Score:2)
As for Marvel being litigious, well, that's no surprise.
In a parallel universe (Score:4, Funny)
Re:In a parallel universe (Score:2, Informative)
PUT DOWN THAT PENCIL!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Thanks,
You friends from Marvel
Honestly, though. Companies are taking IP far too seriously these days. Calm down, get over it. If anything, it shows whatever you're doing is working, because it's popular! Don't trash it by being a jerk.
Re:PUT DOWN THAT PENCIL!!! (Score:2)
Marvel - 100% original copies (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Marvel - 100% original copies (Score:4, Funny)
From The Day the Violence died [snpp.com]
Re:Marvel - 100% original copies (Score:2, Funny)
Thank you.
Re:Marvel - 100% original copies (Score:2)
Solomon Grundy want pants, too!
Re:Marvel - 100% original copies (Score:2)
In other news... (Score:2)
Seriously however. I don't think that CoH is at all designed to allow people to rip off Marvel, unless marvel wants to claim it has copyright to a) people in stupid looking suits with a logo on them, b) women in skin-tight outfits or c) Huge hulking creatures.
AFAIK, these were all around long before Marvel. Also I would say CoH should be praised for making their system of character design as flexable as it is. Unfortunatly t
sad (Score:2, Interesting)
Is Cryptic supposed to keep a database of all colour schemes of all super heroes that ever existed (also the multiple costume variations they occasioanly pull out to boost sales) and prevent users from picking them. How many do you think there are? Probably over 10,000 from Marvel and then there's DC and all the r
Re:sad (Score:3, Interesting)
Take a page from the RIAA (Score:3, Funny)
Then go bankrupt from the bad publicity.
Re:Take a page from the RIAA (Score:2)
Re:Take a page from the RIAA (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Take a page from the RIAA (Score:3, Funny)
Harvey Birdman (Attorney at Law) !
(No, wait, then they would get sued by Cartoon Network...)
How to draw Marvel. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:How to draw Marvel. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How to draw Marvel. (Score:2, Insightful)
They've Been Trying (Score:3, Informative)
If they detect user's with "Hulk" in their name, they will often reset that character's name to "Generic Hero x" and give them a day or so to pick a new one. This is even if the character looks nothing like the Hulk.
I mean, please. Some characters are just so friggin easy to copy. The Hulk is a big green (or grey) buy with torn shorts. Is it Cryptic's fault that Marvel isn't very original in their design?
Sure, a character like "The Punisher" or "Wolverine" would also be easy to duplicate in the game, but who cares! People aer building the character they want. They want someone with sharp metal claws and a ever-familar beard, then so be it. If they want to be big and green, so be it. If they want a red and gold armor suit of battle armor, let them.
Personally, I think DC would have more of a leg to stand on. They have tons of heros with pretty generic looking costumes (solid-color tights with an emblem). Many of Marvel's characters have hard to copy designs.
Shame on Marvel, or at least on their legal department.
Oh well, I stopped playing a few weeks ago anyway. It just stopped being fun.
Re:They've Been Trying (Score:3, Informative)
From the City of Heroes' End User Licence Agreement [plaync.com] (paragraph 6c):
Members can upload to and create content on our servers in various forms [...] you acknowledge and agree that such Member Content is the sole property of NC Interactive.
So by uploading a Wolverine-like character, NC Interactive claims ownership of the Wolverine-like character, so NC Interactive is in trouble for owning and using a trademarked character in their game.
However...
You shall ind
Re:They've Been Trying (Score:2)
paper and pen (Score:2)
I hope they don't realize that paper and pen will let me "design characters that are virtual copies of its own superheros, including 'The Incredible Hulk'.
They might seek unspecified damages against International Paper [internationalpaper.com] and Bic [bicworld.com].
Die already, Marvel (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't want to play a super-hero who is second banana to Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four or the Avengers. I don't want to have to deal with people wanting to be able to storm the Avengers Mansion because they think they should be able to.
I want to make a hero who is as unique as I can make him, and is not burdened down by years of comic book history, much of which is crappily written. (I refer you to the Clone Saga, in particular, and most titles that start with the letter 'X'.)
Kierthos
Re:Die already, Marvel (Score:3, Interesting)
This isn't about just the tool (Score:4, Informative)
It came down to the EULA which states that your character and all derivations or representations thereof are property of Cryptic and NCSoft. To which I asked pointedly "What about the Fantastic Four [nerdgod.com]?"
This was going to bite them in the ass eventually, as they allege to own everything you create, even if it's not yours to create.
My suspicion, as I've voiced elsewhere, is that they will be required to remove these characters from the game, and pay damages to Marvel, and probably DC and whoever else, in the end.
Then, of course, there's the obvious ownership issue of this guy [nerdgod.com].
Re:This isn't about just the tool (Score:2, Funny)
Re:This isn't about just the tool (Score:2)
Remove what characters from the game? Any character anyone's made that looks vaguely like the Hulk? The color green? Large characters? All characters with claws? Or just ban some strange list of combinations any IP owner anywhere in the world comes up with?
You can make Mario and Luigi with this tool. You can make Pink
Re:This isn't about just the tool (Score:2)
The character in that screenshot, on the right, is a character I made based on my own comic book ideas. Technically, if I continued to play that character (I deleted her), I would be unable to create comics based on her as Cryptic would own the rights to the repr
Re:This isn't about just the tool (Score:2)
They won't sue just because some guy traced the Hulk. However, they will sue if some guy traced the Hulk and then used his drawn Hulk to do business (ads, posters, business cards, anything even remotely related to his business). In this case, they wouldn't sue the pen-company, they would sue the owner of the infringing drawing.
In this case, from the EULA, NC Interactive owns the character. They are using the character
Re:This isn't about just the tool (Score:2)
Ah, good point. That certainly opens up a lot of interesting implications for virtual property ownership and user-created content. If they have to back down and give users ownership over their own likenesses... wow.
Re:This isn't about just the tool (Score:2, Interesting)
If EULAs are binding contracts, has he just signed away his property rights?
Re:This isn't about just the tool (Score:2)
IANAL, BTW.
Duh (Score:2)
Meanwhile in a court near you (Score:2)
HG Well is suing Planetside for generic use of Sci-fi.
I fact I'm gonna sue the rest of humanity for looking vaguely like me (two arms, two legs head, torso)
You better start paying up...
CJC
Sign here to join Class Action lawsuit (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sign here to join Class Action lawsuit (Score:2)
You couldn't sue HP because their stuff can let someone infringe your copyright/trademark. You can only sue the owner of the infringing material, so if you duplicate your artwork, you can sue yourself for owning and using a copy of your work.
Marvel isn't suing because there is a tool that allows people to make infringing characters, they are suing because NC Interactive owns the characters (as per the game EULA) and are using them to do business.
Re:Sign here to join Class Action lawsuit (Score:2)
No one's with you until you learn to spell copyright correctly. It's not about Writing Copy, it's your Right to Copy. CopyRight.
However, you make an excellent point, as sarcastic as it may have been. The makers of technology cannot be held respo
Good News: Court abuse will only hasten things... (Score:2)
It's bad enough that only DC and Marvel can use the (obviously generic, but actually trademarked) term Super-Hero.
It was only 24 years ago that a wrestler took the name Hulk Hogan. Nobody seemed to mind back then. Why is it that we have to avoid 'hulking males with green skin and tattered purple pants' in our video games?
Any why doesn't Marvel sue the pants off of DC with their obvious Hulk-ripoffs Soloman Gr
Re:Good News: Court abuse will only hasten things. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Good News: Court abuse will only hasten things. (Score:2)
CoH has fought this since the begining. (Score:2)
The coolest part of the game is the freedom people have to create their characters. CoH has tried to stop people from imitating real comic book characters but people keep coming up with ingenious ways to get around it.
You can't make a character with claws like Wolverine but making a guy wearing yellow and black with a mask and regenerative abilities is possible. Is that same as Wolverine? Probably not. It's all a judgeme
Re:CoH has fought this since the begining. (Score:2)
Actually, as long as the words are phonetically similar (such as your Woolvrine/Wolverine and WeaponX/Wepon Ex), they can be trivially matched with the public domain SoundEx algorithm. It's what my team uses for geocoding, so we can find mistakes when people type "Mane St" instead of "Main St" for an address.
Easy Solution (Score:3, Insightful)
Marvel is being predatory (Score:2, Informative)
Akin to P2P lawsuits/INDUCE? (Score:2)
I would think that given the recent court rulings (no time to find relevant links) that have indemnified P2P creators against infringement suits, that as soon as this goes to court it will
Re:Akin to P2P lawsuits/INDUCE? (Score:2)
You are completely wrong. As per the game EULA, NC Interactive owns the characters, even though it's the users that made them. Therefore, the company owns the infringing work, and they are the ones who should be sued. They're not being sued for providing a tool, they're being sued for claiming ownership and using characters they don't actually own.
STOP
as if Marvel's MMO would let you play Hulk (Score:3, Insightful)
So they're suing over a game that lets you mimic their own heroes, arguing that it ruins the market for their own superhero game, even though their own game won't let you play their own heroes.
My plans are ruined (Score:4, Funny)
Re:My plans are ruined (Score:2, Funny)
meanwhile... (Score:4, Funny)
Some Quick Thoughts (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, if I have a character named Ferro Man, who wears an armored suit, am I infringing on Iron Man? Okay, what version of Iron Man, then, is Marvel preventing me from copying? The gray suited one? The red and gold armored one? The one who flies and blasts things? What if I change the name and sex to Ferro Woman and Marvel later comes out with a character named Iron Woman?
And how is Marvel planning on preventing users of their own future game from creating a BattyMan or a Green Lamp character? Will DC sue Marvel when Marvel releases their game?
Cryptic does police as much as they can, but is a character named the Uncredible Bulk a problem? What if the character is a skinny white girl?
What if I have an Asian character with claws named "The China Wolf"? Am I infringing? What if Marvel decides next week to change Wolverine into an Asian girl?
Anyhow, just things that pop into my mind. I currently have a character on CoH whose name was just used on the Cartoon Network's Justice League Unlimited show and was previously not used for a superhero. If DC changes her costume or powers to look like my character, can I sue them (or rather, can Cryptic sue them, since they own that character now)?
Just things to thing about.
Re:Some Quick Thoughts (Score:2)
Then you sue Marvel for infringing on your copyright.
Re: Ferro Man (Score:2)
No, you'd be infringing on Ferro Man [members.shaw.ca]
if I have an Asian character with claws named "The China Wolf"? Am I infringing [on Wolverine]?
No, but you might be infringing on Lady Deathstrike [free-definition.com].
And yes, it is becoming much more difficult to come up with fresh superhero ideas as copyright terms get longer and longer.
Re: Ferro Man (Score:2)
That brings up the whole Plastic Man vs. Elongated Man vs. Mr. Fantastic.
Re:Some Quick Thoughts (Score:2)
Now there's an idea, Batty Man [urbandictionary.com], the world's first homosexual super-hero!
Actualy, CoH hunts for IP violators. (Score:3, Informative)
(e) Character Name. In order to use the service, you must create a character and choose a name for your character to identify your character to other Members (your "Character Name"). You may not select as your Character Name the name of another person, or a name which violates any third party's trademark right, copyright, or other proprietary right, or which may mislead other players to believe you to be an employee of NC Interactive, or which NC Interactive deems at its sole discretion to be vulgar or otherwise offensive. NC Interactive reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (1) delete or alter any Character Name or (2) terminate any license granted herein, for any reason whatsoever, including, without limitation, any suspected or actual infringement of any trademark or trade name right, copyright, or other proprietary right.
(f) Super Group Names, Super Group Member Titles, Battle Cry, and Character Description. While accessing the service, it is possible to name your Super Group, give titles to members of your Super Group, create a Battle Cry, and write a Character Description. You may not create a Battle Cry, Character Description, give a name to a Super Group, or give a title to a Super Group member that is the name/description/title of another person, or a name/description/title which violates any third party's trademark right, copyright, or other proprietary right, or which may mislead other players to believe you to be an employee of NC Interactive, or which NC Interactive deems at its sole discretion to be vulgar or otherwise offensive. NC Interactive reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (1) delete or alter any name/description/title given to a Super Group, Super Group Member, Battle Cry, or Character Description or (2) terminate any license granted herein, for any reason whatsoever, including, without limitation, any suspected or actual infringement of any trademark or trade name right, copyright, or other proprietary right
And that may be what gets them... (Score:3)
No fan of copyright suits either but.... (Score:2)
Not as bad as it sounds... (Score:2)
See your local rules of civil procedure for more information.
The end result is that, when a big company tries to file a weak claim and shut down a small competitor, The competitor now has a much easier time finding and affording lawyers for its defense. Unfortunately, small companies in any United State tend to have a
Very lame. (Score:2)
It's just a testament to the customization engine that ripoffs are even possible.
Marvel sucked before, and they suck now. Cooperation works, lawsuits generate a bad public image. I'm refusing to allow any more of my dollars to line Marvel's coffers.
Countersuit (Score:2)
Load of Crap (Score:2)
CoH has taken measures to prevent copyrighted characters from being made, and actively root them out.
Does anybody have Marvel's PR department contact info so we here at Slashdot can let them know exactly how we feel about frivalous IP lawsuits?
Funny Relevant Comic (Score:2)
Remember the good old days... (Score:2, Insightful)
(Sorry in advance for the long post)
Does anybody remember the good old days...
...when companies tried to actually be better than their competition instead of taking legal measures to ensure that they don't have competition?
...when you could have a clever idea and actually be free to proudly develop, sell, or give it away instead of hiding it or anonymously distributing it?
...when stupid people sometimes got sued for doing stupid things, instead of smart people ALWAYS getting sued for doing smart thi
Re:Next stop Carmack? (Score:2)
Re:Marvel? That bad? (Score:2)
Re:Marvel? That bad? (Score:2)
Yes, it is (Score:2)