Japanese Schoolchildren to be Tagged with RFID 684
oostevo writes "CNET has reported that Japanese schoolchildren in the city of Osaka will be tagged with RFID tags. Apparently this is in addition to the trial program in Tabe that The Register reported earlier, where parents can track their children on their way to school."
progress (Score:5, Insightful)
In 2 years replace the word 'kids' with 'employees'.
In 5 years replace the word 'employers' with 'shoppers'.
in 9 years replace the word 'shoppers' with...
As bad as it seems, as a parent I can understand (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd tell 'em they have it when they're old enough to understand. And if they don't like, when they're old enough they can take it out themselves.
People may complain but.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Or just think about yourself trying to explain how you don't want to see this because it violates privacy to a parent whose child is missing/abducted..
glaring flaw (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if parents want to know if their kid is down at the pachinko parlour or some such
Stalkers (Score:5, Insightful)
What is going to happen when someone is able to track these kids and it isn't the school?
Not the worst idea (Score:3, Insightful)
But Where's the Danger? (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, if the kids are smart enough, think of the opportunity to play hookie: simply leave your RFID tag *within* the school, and sneak out! Go play video games all day, with an electronic alibi!
I am going to see if I can get work to start using these...
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Freedom or Evil: freevil.net [freevil.net]
G. W. Bush says, "You decide!"
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
This argument is such a fallacy. Why don't we encase our children in 'Nerf'? After all, then they would just bounce off of cars when they run out in the street.
If it saved one child, it's worth it right?
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
You wouldn't mind that, would you?
if this were to happen.. (Score:1, Insightful)
But since its happening in Japan, it's "Well, I can see why they would want to do that. Yeah, it makes sense. The Japanese are so innovative."
s/Japan/Europe if you want.
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Should we ban computers and the net?
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Human society has a nasty tendancy to slip from what may be a clear defined goal (Keep kids safe by tracking them) towards something that's similar where the logic matches fairly close (Keep people safe by tracking them). However, at the same time, you run a higher risk of abuse of such information. While this is something of a straw man argument, consider what the Holocaust would've been like if the leaders of the country could find every member of the Jewish community, hiding or not, because they were wearing tags?
Personally, I'd almost rather teach my children self defense and how to handle unknowns in the world, than to rely on a removable tracking tag for their "safety". They'll be better off for knowing that.
Just Softening the Population Up (Score:3, Insightful)
What if we had grown up wearing RFID tags? We probably wouldn't be objecting to today's chidren wearing RFID tags. More likely, the argument would be about something like "Should RFID tags be implanted or worn outside the body?".
That's the real danger of children wearing RFID tags. They will lose the ability to object when their own children are violated.
Pedophiles thank Japan (Score:3, Insightful)
this is friggen nuts! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Shoppers will come before full-time, real-time employee tracking- more monetary value than employees and probably sooner than 2 years.
I would be surprised, however, if in 9 years students here are being tracked. I think America's parents are too paranoid to stand for this. I personally have no problem with it, schools in my kids' district are repsonsible (by law, no less) for their whereabouts to and from school. I'd actually find peace of mind in RFID tracking, more so in GPS. Kidnappers and such aren't going to hunt for what they can already see, it's not like some asshole is going to sit in a van looking for GPS or RFID signals when he can look out his window (hey, big news break- kids can be found near schools).
But a school, however, isn't lurking in a car somewhere watching your kids and they're the ones who SHOULD know where their students are, right? If a signal is reported outside of school during hours or worse, if it goes dead, they would know right away and could take immediate action in finding out why the child is not in school.
It tracks them (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stalkers (Score:3, Insightful)
Imagine an RFID reader that could tell when children were alone and let a whacko sort children from a distance.
It's an other instance of an _item_ being used to replace an _understanding_. Children should be taught to careful not cared for till they have no choices.
I can just imagine the kid at the back of the room with a bag full of RFID chips while his friends play hooky.
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:2, Insightful)
RFID has a rather short range - maybe a couple of feet. It can be detected going through a door or a gate, but it isn't some omnipotent all-seeing device. If you're honestly proposing that bad people are going to sneak into a school and snoop around with an RFID... god, what's the point. Put the tinfoil hat back on.
Anime makes sense to me now (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole recurring theme about man and machine? Ghost in the Shell? Tetsuo in Akira merging with all the machinery around him? How many other examples can you name? I've always wondered why that's such a common idea in anime. I have my answer now.
It's because the Japanese think it's a good idea, that's why.
You know, Slashdot is a great place to be a geek. Look at the new technologies coming out, marvel at their application...but sometimes you just gotta say enough is enough.
And I have to draw the line right before RFID tagging my children.
It's impressively geeky, but c'mon guys - sometimes "because you can" isn't the right answer!
Re:Let's not over state... (Score:1, Insightful)
Therefore, if whoever is manning the school gates actually does their job properly, cutting school isn't going to be any different a process than it was before.
You have a history of posting falsities in order to gain karma, you really should stop.
Re:Light on Details (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, I'm not joking at all. If you've been carrying an RFID tag as long as you can remember, requiring it by law won't seem like a big deal at all. Laws that take away freedoms are preceded by education campaigns to convince the public they want to give the freedom up.
Stopping Abduction? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a tad different (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, kids are under adult attention a lot of the time. Still, I cannot dismiss this as just a "more efficient method" as you do. Is torture just a more efficient method of interrogation? Efficiency is not a justifying dictum, just a bonus.
That's your choice. Me, I do care. I'm not a totally paranoid tinfoil-hatter, but I have purposely avoided owning a cellphone and intend to continue doing so until it becomes an absolute necessity (if it does). And even then, I doubt I'll keep it with me all the time, much less on. I don't want to be reachable or trackable 24/7, that's not human nature, or at least not my nature.
kidstuff isn't for adults (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the slippery slope, remember that children have fewer rights than adults. To kids it looks like their rights are just suppressed, because they don't have the power to take it back. But it's actually because they are still learning to be people, when subordination to experience is necessary, and haven't actually developed the inalienable rights inherent in adults. Otherwise kids would have all emancipated themselves already, at latest in the 1960s when they all got money, cars, and TV role models.
It will be important to remember these distinctions when the police states attempt to raise the age of application of these tracking devices, saying that kids don't mind, why shouldn't adults, whose lives are risker. Adults who are monitored become even more neurotic, sources of risk. Monitoring us will make us less safe, as society becomes unhinged from the transferred social pressure. At least watching the increase in deviance, from unfairly implanted kids who are already developed into adults, will give us some data warning us away from general application of the technique.
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Besides, if the school mandates it, it has to pay for it. Have the school get the RFID readers installed at choke points, and make it voluntary for parents. That way:
1) Parents feel they take a meaningful step to protect their kids
2) Parents who don't believe in RFID don't have to fight the system just because you think you're better than them.
3) Parents who refused the RFID can't blame the school for their refusal.
Why is it that whenever something "better" comes along, it has to be Mandatory?
Better things should be voluntary, that way we can all become better human beings by making enlightened choices.
DoCoMo alreadyt introduced some RFID tech (Score:1, Insightful)
And because Japland isn't filled with privacy freaks like say U.S., these things will happen and nobody will be complaining.
When HDTV copy protection was enabled in April 2004, few thousand people complained, then everyone shut up. I'd imagine most complaining people were probably foreigners living in Japan.
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:3, Insightful)
What if an innocent is criminally indicted based soley on their RFID tag due to a technological error or fraudulent RFID tag.
Oh wait, but the courts are perfect and no one would..
Seriously, "If it saves one child" could easily be changed to "If it indictes one innocent". I think that would require a rewrite of the last part of that statement, though they both apply.
Certainly the article doesn't state that the RFID tags are REQUIRED, but if they are optional consider this:
"Putting an RFID wristband on your 8 year old does absolutely nothing to impede or degrade their quality of life". Riiiiiigghht. Obviously no one ever had to fight their way through recess because of the latest f@gtag their mother made them wear, or because they were smaller than the other kids, or because they were uglier kids, etc.
Words like "impede" or "degrade" don't necessarily make you right.
And finally, to point out ONE more error in your argument:
"(not to mention their parent's mental well-being)" What if there's a workaround, "Wear my wristband I found out how to unlock it!! this way I can go screw Jonny even though I'm only 13~!@!# I'll give you a quarter of what I make off it!!!". Sad, but easily possible. -_-
Consider all of the possibilities, this is just one of those technological/social innovations. Not a breakthrough, because there are may be just as many negatives as positives. The decision on whether it is good or bad is much to opinionated (*shudder*) and until the trial finishes we won't have any facts.
With that said, I really have no opinion on this issue or feel the need to research it either. I don't live in Japan so it doesn't really affect me in real life situations and it's hard to imagine that it would. However, your argument seems emotionally biased and perhaps you need to think a bit more before you post.
Re:As bad as it seems, as a parent I can understan (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:kidstuff isn't for adults (Score:2, Insightful)
Children cannot work. Children cannot vote. Children are legally bound to their parents.
Voting is a privilege? Work is a privilege? Emancipation is a privilege?
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:As bad as it seems, as a parent I can understan (Score:5, Insightful)
The odds of being kidnapped (in general, of course if your area has higher stats, then my arguments change) are so low that this sort of thing doesn't do a lot of good. The odds are very high, however, of RFID tags being used for undesirable purposes (unless RFID is well-regulated with regards to privacy, which seems unlikely at this point).
We have:
1. A dubious benefit.
2. A certain detriment.
In complete seriousness, if my parents had tagged me in this way, I'd be very upset with them. I could forgive ignorance on their part (them being fed the line that this is a good thing, and that there are no drawbacks). I could *not* forgive them if they did this with full knowledge (not that I'd disown them or something, just that there would always be this one issue that, regardless of how good our relationship is, I could not forgive).
Now, in Japan the culture is quite different. This doesn't strike me as being too terribly unacceptable there.
Re:Why should kids have any notion of privacy ? (Score:3, Insightful)
seriously, this is scary.
Re:As bad as it seems, as a parent I can understan (Score:4, Insightful)
But it wouldn't. An RFID detector would be easy enough to buy or manufacture from parts you could get at Radioshack. If the tag is injected under the skin you'd use the detector to locate it, then cut it out.
Remember, it's not as if the kidnapper is at all concerned with the welfare of the child. Cutting out a small hunk of flesh isn't going to bother them. And a canny kidnapper would do something interesting with that hunk of flesh - like tape it to the underside of someone else's car so the police would waste time trying to locate and storm(trooper) the house of some innocent.
There is no upside to tagging kids in the crime prevention department. The only use that such a system has is to track the child itself, for the benefit of the parents (in terms of control) or the government (also in terms of control).
Max
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:5, Insightful)
Children don't have a "right" to privacy. Their parents may choose to respect their children's privacy if they believe them to be mature enough (and most aren't, even once they are legal adults - although it's often not as much of the parents' business after that).
MOD PARENT UP! (Score:3, Insightful)
Since this article is talking about elementary school students, I'm really disgusted by the number of Funny-modded jokes about tentacle rape and spooge and what not. Sickos. You know, those kinds of anime & manga are much more popular in the US than in Japan, so despite its origin, what does that say about who are really the pervs?
But, for what its worth, despite Japan's reputation for being a safe country (which it generally is when talking about violent crime/theft/drug crimes), there is a disproportionately high rate of child abuse, kidnapping, rape, and violent attacks against young children.
I don't think RFID tags on kids is the answer, though. Its a big social problem and needs to be worked on from more than just the preventative angle.
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:progress, but not as we know it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know; I've seen some parents whose invasion of their children's privacy goes so far as to be morally objectionable. Though I'm no philosopher, I'd suggest that there's a moral right of some kind, though its extent is definitely a matter for debate.
The law (in Japan or wherever) is a different matter, of course.
Disgusting (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:progress (Score:4, Insightful)
Definately not. I am certain any kid that has that done will end up resenting their parents when they are older for violating them like that.
Heck, if it weren't for all the "normalcy" society places on it, circumcision would be a cause for resentment of one's parents, too.
At least an anklet can be taken off without leaving any permanent reminders.
Japanese Crime (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometimes I swear we are just asking for it.
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
That means you'll have to do your parenting the hard way. You know, like the countless generations before you did...
Re:"Children don't have a "right" to privacy." (Score:2, Insightful)
If you do not involve yourself in your children's lives, specifically including knowing where they are going, with whom they are associating, and what they are doing, they will turn out exactly as you describe. And/or kidnapped and sexually assaulted, maybe even killed, by some weirdo. Or on drugs. Or in juvie, and prison after that.
Not only do children not have a right to privacy, parents have a moral obligation to make sure they know the things described above.
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is exactly why all restrictions on freedoms have and always will start there. THINK OF THE CHILDREN! It's an emotional device that gets people do what they otherwise wouldn't, but it sets a precedent that can't be taken back.
As of right now, high-school students do not have the right to free speech or privacy. For example, a student cannot write anything in the school paper that goes against the school administration's views, and any student's locker can be searched at any time without warning. And while this may, admittedly, help prevent embarrassments for the school system or drugs in schools, what sense of civil rights does this instill in them?
Similarly, if they schools RFID tagging every student, imagine how much easier it will be to get those same people in twenty years to accept a nationalized RFID card/implant.
-Grym
Re:progress (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't worry, the guy lurking in the car is probably the one with the RFID tracker.
The illusion of safety (Score:2, Insightful)
but what i think is bad about this is that it gives parents the illusion of knowing what their kids are up to. most people are lazy. they'll reckon that the kids won't try anything if they know they're being tracked.
bulls[h|p]it.
think about this. you're reading
in my opinion this is the tool of the uninterested parent. it's the sort of thing that would be used by a parent who lets TV raise their child. if you're involved with your child, and if you're intersted, then you won't need to tag your child.
if you're not and you feel the need to tag your child, then you shouldn't be allowed, thus providing you with more incentive to get involved
a child who's been over parented is still better than a child who's been under parented
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't be surprised if your son suddenly picks up some amateur dentistry and develops a strong distrust of you if you allow this to happen.
Guess what... I am willing to bet nobody here has a chip in their tooth (unless that charlatan Kevin Warwick is reading) but we're all here! We all made it!
Guess what... no amount of embedded chips is going to stop a determined individual doing what he thinks is a good idea. Thing is, the attacker might also have a touch of the amateur dentist in him, so the attack could be all the more devastating.
How about, instead of tracking your son, how about some parenting? Keep an eye on him, you know? The sort of thing this species has been at for more years than historically recorded, you know?
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
All systems are open to abuse. What happens when J. Random Paedophile hacks the system and can use it to choose a victim?
One day Little Girl will become Mature Woman. Will she appreciate having a RFID tag then? 99.9% of people probably will, because of social conditioning. But what happens when J. Random Rapist or Stalker hacks the system and uses it to choose a victim?
Severe legal penalties already do not stop these people. Why would simply knowing someone's whereabouts stop them? At least we'll know where to go to find the body after the event.
Re:progress (Score:4, Insightful)
No, but if the potential victim is in isolation, say has wandered off to some secluded spot, and the criminal is using the tracking system, he now has a prime candidate for attack! Someone to abuse and no witnesses. What's the alternative? Security cameras absolutely everywhere being constantly monitored, or police officers everywhere rounding up people who stray from "approved" areas as soon as they deviate? Could you imagine a situation where you walk out of a "monotored area" and within 30 seconds a team of armed police decend and bundle you away back to somewhere "safe" and give you a lecture about "safety and responsibility?"
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Freedom of speech and privacy does not mean you have to fund the people embarrassing you. If you want to write things about your school, produce your own newspaper.
As far as RFIDs go, I don't like them, but I can see them as an outgrowth of modern trends - at least in Australia. More and more responsibility is being placed on those looking after children, and less and less authority is given. A school here was successfully sued by the parents of two children who truanted, and where injured in the course of having a rock fight. At the same time, schools are prohibited from and corporal punishment, or removing children from their peers ("timeouts") in case they alienate them from their friends.
I don't know the conditions in the states, nor in Japan, but based on things going on here, all I can say is "more power to them". People who demand other people take responsibility for their own stupid actions deserve whatever they get. Grow up, take responsibility for yourself, and don't blame the school if your kid is a dick.
Professionals are already tagged (Score:2, Insightful)
I read some of the "dehumanizing" articles with a bit of a smile. If any of you are working for a large corporation you are already tagged. Every large company I worked for (Tandy, CSC, Lockheed, Sprint, Sabre) required all employees to carry a RFID badge and you could not get into the work area unless you had your badge. In three of the places (Tandy, Lockheed, Sabre) you could not get OUT unless you had your badge.
Badge readers were strategically placed at the entrances/exits of all buildings/floors so movement could be restricted to designated areas.
Doing the same in the schools would provide security because you would know that the only people on the school grounds are people who are suppose to be there. If a child does not show up for class you know the last set of doors the child walked past and when.
As far as dehumanizing look at your friends and colleagues that have professional jobs and see if they still have their soul.
Peon 3 of 5, Assimilated 1993
do you have kids? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:False sense of security. (Score:4, Insightful)
In other words, as the scope of government expands, the level of personal responsibility is diminished. It doesn't benefit government to have people take responsibility for their own lives. The more dependent the people on government, the greater the benefit for those who control government.
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:progress (Score:1, Insightful)
Two words .... Faraday cage
Re:progress (Score:3, Insightful)
It's easy for us non-parents to throw around trite advice that all it takes is better parenting (although with two teachers in my family, I think the world really could do with better parenting).
Even the best parents though, are not infalible. Sure, all us reading Slashdot now made it, but some people didn't. I live in a block of flats, and I'd just come home this weekend when I heard a child calling out for their Mummy. So I went to see what was happening. One of the neighbours kids was by the entrance, by himself. He isn't old enough to do more than baby-talk, so I couldn't find out where his Mum was, but he had clearly got seperated from here.
Our flats are right by some shops and a public car park. There is a door, but it is often left unlocked. I'm not going to leave a little kid by himself, even if the odds of an evil child snatcher around are tiny. So I stay with him.
After a few minutes, Mum shows up. She had been getting something out the car, and he had wandered off. You see, its easy to say "keep an eye on him" but parents can't do it all the time, and maybe a tracking device would let them find them if they do wander off and there isn't a freindly neighbout around.
Am I pro tracking devices? I'm not sure, I'm not a parent, and until I am I don't think I can really make an informed decision. I am aware that just saying "parent better" is no solution. Technology is no substitute for good parenting, and we need more of it. However, sometimes good parenting may be no substiture for technology. Lets discuss how it could be useful, and avoid being abused, rather than make pointless cheap shots.
Re:progress (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:progress (Score:4, Insightful)
Gee and I wonder where the school resources and funds come from? Besides that, isn't the purpose of a school newspaper to teach up-and-coming journalist and writers how the system works and to peak their interests? What system is it they're being taught when these things are censored? Not journalism - they're being taught politics. You might even be able to correlate this type of restrictive approach to the education system's publications to acceptance of censorship that occurs in American news media today.
Parents should be taught that if they have a problem with something published in the newspaper, they should write in an editorial, NOT tell the administration to squelch it. That's how you respond to someone saying something you don't agree with.
Teaching responsibility (Score:3, Insightful)
What's this teaching the children? That adults are always checking up on them, that they they're always being monitors and hence can always be got out of any trouble. In short, that they don't need to take responsibility for themselves.
Mobile phones have already had some of this effect, and IDs will have more. Why bother learning how to make arrangement and stick to them? Why bother making the effort to be at the agreed place at the agreed time? After all, you can always call and explain...
Why bother to learn self-discipline, when you know it's always being enforced on you anyway?
If we raise a generation of children who know they don't need to look after themselves, we'll end up with a generation of adults who can't look after themselves.
And I find that just as scary as the civil liberties implications.
Re:"Children don't have a "right" to privacy." (Score:4, Insightful)
The battle cry of the narrow-minded parent who can't possibly understand that someone else that has children might have a different opinion on how they should be raised.
There's being involved in your child's life and there's being so oppressive they have no choice but to rebel and rebel hard. One of the worst things you can do as a parent is to make your child believe you do not trust him at all.
Let me ask you this: If you treat your child as if he's a criminal, what incentive does he have to not be a criminal? If your home is already a prison, how effective is the threat of prison going to be? And furthermore, how is this complete lack of trust preparing him for life without you?
I would suggest that if you need to track your child's every movement when they are old enough to go places by themselves then you haven't done your job as a parent. Getting children to behave properly when you are with them is trivial. Getting them to behave properly when you aren't with them is what parenting is all about.