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Beastie Boys Respond to DRM Claims 581

Posted by michael
from the didn't-do-nothin' dept.
An anonymous reader notes that the Beastie Boys have responded to claims that their new album is DRM-crippled; their response is that the US and UK versions aren't crippled, and the DRM software is only installed in RAM, not on disk. See our previous story for background.
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Beastie Boys Respond to DRM Claims

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  • by thenextpresident (559469) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @03:37PM (#9538639) Homepage Journal
    I live up in Montreal, Canada, and I was actually at a store yesterday, and went to buy their CD, until I noticed the big text on the CD saying it was copy-protected. Anyways, I looked on the back, and it said it only ran on Windows or Mac. So, in the end, I didn't buy the CD because of that big text saying it was copy-protected.

    Will the CD play on Linux? I am all for buying their CD, but I will NOT buy a CD I can't play at work or at home.
  • So.. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by t_allardyce (48447) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @03:38PM (#9538651) Journal
    Are they admitting themselves that the DRM is totally crap and easily by-passed and that most rippers will easily be able to get this on the P2P networks thus defeating the entire purpose of the system because now only clue-less users will be stopped by it and its mainly these clue-less users who wish to honestly copy the CD for fair-use reasons?
  • by Epistax (544591) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [xatsipe]> on Saturday June 26, 2004 @03:48PM (#9538720) Journal
    Did you know that you can take your CD Rom, only plug in the power supply (no IDE), and if the cd rom isn't crap (if it has more than one button, unlike my current one, and has a headphone jack) you can play the CD? Again, that's without the connect to the computer at all. I did this back home for fun since I had an extra power supply. (The supply didn't require a motherboard connection to turn on.)
  • by Pakaran2 (138209) <windrunner.gmail@com> on Saturday June 26, 2004 @03:54PM (#9538757)
    It depends if it relies on things that CD-ROM drives don't correct for, such as slightly invalid formats.

    If it uses autoplay to install a driver, Linux, which doesn't support autoplay and couldn't run a windoze driver if it wanted to, will have no problem. It'd be like trying to use dutch elm disease against soldiers.

    Also, keep in mind that (no duh) the Linux drivers for IDE devices are written completely separately from the Windows ones, and have different vulnerabilities (and if they have the same vunerabilities, then fine, I'll wait 3 days, emerge sync && emerge -uD world && genkernel all && emerge nvidia-kernel nvidia-glx hotplug emu10k1 and I'm all set).
  • Torrent (Score:5, Interesting)

    by barcodez (580516) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @03:55PM (#9538759)
    The first torrent of this album was uploaded to the most famous of the torrent sites on the 4th June. This DRM thing is obviously pointless. What's the point DRMing in one market and not another - the Internet doesn't respect physical boundaries.

    If I was feeling cynical I would think they are just doing this for publicity.
  • by WhatAmIDoingHere (742870) <sexwithanimals@gmail.com> on Saturday June 26, 2004 @03:57PM (#9538773) Homepage
    The problem is the people who take that same "who cares" attitude about the RIAA. People who take the "who cares" attitude about p2p or even their computers.

    I was having a discussion at a family party just the other week, and was shocked to hear my GRANDMOTHER talking about how "EVIL the RIAA is" (her words). I asked her what she was talking about, and she said that the commercials where they force the children to admit to being criminals is wrong. That got my aunts asking me where to get music from. Some wanted a legal way of doing it (I got one aunt setup with iTunes) and some wanted a free way of doing it.

    More and more people are noticing the RIAA and more and more people are getting sick and tired of it.
  • RAID meta-data ? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 26, 2004 @04:05PM (#9538812)
    I wonder if the beasties and company would pay for Ontrack to recover RAID table meta-data, as writing DRM information to hidden disk sectors will fail some RAID arrays. Remember TurboTax!
  • Well done news.. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Turn-X Alphonse (789240) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @04:09PM (#9538843) Journal
    The sad thing is their actions haven't been on public news or anything. If they can report some idiots kicking a ball around why isn't the news reporting when a huge violation of trust and the law is done by a big company. When you look at how all this has played out you start to relise just how messed up the news community is...

    If it's David Beckham then they will sell their left arm for a picture but if it's a serious issue like this then it gets no coverage and other then us geeks most people won't even have a clue about it..
  • Re:Damn Straight. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by wasabii (693236) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @04:10PM (#9538850)
    Um. That's not fair use. That's plain copyright violation. Fair use says you can listen to the music you bought, in any way you choose. You can rip it to your HD, you can make backups.

    Fair use does not say you can download it from the internet nor share it with people.

    That is plain theft. You moron.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 26, 2004 @04:43PM (#9539027)
    If I remember correctly someone was being done under the DMCA in america for telling people to hold down the shift key when putting CD's into their windows PC's.

    Either that or turn autorun off.

    Under OSX it mounts the disk twice. 1st for the redbook music 2nd for the data portion.
  • by cbreaker (561297) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @04:51PM (#9539073) Journal
    Although their guy got it wrong (the player does not play the redbook audio it plays WMA files) it does sound to me like this is simply a multi-session CD.

    A PC will always play the last session, and an audio player will always play the first session. In this manner you can put both data and audio on a CD and have them easily accessable to both types of players.

    In Windows, all you have to do is hold down the shift key while mounting the CD. It will load the first session on the disc instead of their crap DRM data session. Then rip away.
  • by _Sprocket_ (42527) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @04:59PM (#9539126)


    When you have to post a 'response' to a new thing on an old thing that used to just work, you have by definition created confusion. People will go for the simpler option: piracy.


    I've made a simular comment before.

    If you want your data in a widely usefull format, you're going to have to know how to do some kind of hack. These hacks will become more and more complex. So the easier route would be to turn to your favorite source of illicit data and take advantage of someone else's work.

    Not all illicit data sources are equal. Even before the various Media industry associations started hiring outfits to play shennanigans, getting a good quality RIP involved a fair degree of effort. Or money.

    Now, once you've gone through all the effort to get your illicit data... what's the incentive of buying a legal copy? After all, you're already vested in the data you just aquired. It's not like going to buy a copy from the store is giving you a whole lot. And neither is buying and downloading a sanctioned copy.

    The Music industry is making illicit data markets attractive.

    On a side note - it's interesting to watch this work in a completely open market. Back in the early 90's, I spent some time in Saudi Arabia. There were no copyright laws. There were entire stores devoted to cheap knock-off cassettes of the latest pop music. However, there were also stores that sold both the cheap knock-offs and the better-quality official products. They were competatively priced with advertisements extolling the virtues (higher quality, lyrics, etc) of the official products. In the stores that sold both, I saw a lot of customers walking up to the register with official merchandise (as well as those who went for price over quality).

  • Question (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Amorpheus_MMS (653095) <(amorpheus) (at) (gmail.com)> on Saturday June 26, 2004 @05:06PM (#9539156)
    1. There is NO copy controlled software on US or UK releases of Beastie Boys' "To the 5 Boroughs."

    2. The disk *IS* copy controlled in Europe - which is standard policy for all


    Why is it that Europeans get the DRM disks and US/UK get regular ones?
  • by pyrros (324803) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @05:16PM (#9539199)
    >IIRC, everytime something is installed on a windows
    >machine, an entry is placed in install.log

    You don't. install.log is mostly used so an unistaller can now what to delete. A typical install.log resides inside a program's directory. I did a quick search in my hdd, and out of 28 install.log files, 26 where in \program files\foo and two where in \windows\system32\macromed\ (BAD macromedia).

    The macrovision people get extra credit for dumping a file in the root directory.
  • Re:Question (Score:2, Interesting)

    by BrianCarlstrom (717058) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @06:20PM (#9539463) Homepage
    1. There is NO copy controlled software on US or UK releases of Beastie Boys' "To the 5 Boroughs."

    2. The disk *IS* copy controlled in Europe - which is standard policy for all

    Why is it that Europeans get the DRM disks and US/UK get regular ones?

    And when did the UK leave the continent of Europe?

  • by Have Blue (616) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @06:22PM (#9539468) Homepage
    The legality of this site is hazy (at the very least), so it may not be the best choice if you're trying to avoid piracy for philosophical reasons.
  • by gnu-generation-one (717590) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @06:24PM (#9539488) Homepage
    "As long as DRM stays locked in the tealm of crap music, I don't mind. As soon as DRM cripples something of quality, then I'll be a sad clown."

    Does it matter? Look at the label. It says "EMI".

    Look at the press release. It says "The disk *IS* copy controlled in Europe - which is standard policy for all Capitol/EMI titles"

    Look at the list of EMI artists [emimusicpub.com]

    Please avoid buying music from the following bands:

    112, Paula Abdul, Adema, Air Control, Damon Albarn, Lee Alexander, Jerel Allen, Marshall Altman, Amen, Keith Andes, Deric Angeletti, Ron Aniello, Ira Antelis, Angie Aparo, Craig Armstrong, Aslyn, At The Drive-In, Dallas Austin, Avalanches, Avenged Sevenfold, The B-52's, Anders Bagge, Tony Banks, Travis Barker, Jimmy Barnes, John Barry, Alejandro Bassi, Battlecat, Rick Beato, Victoria Beckham, Beenie Man, Howard Benson, Eddie Berkeley, Bigpockets, BLM, Black Lab, Grant Black, Bleu, Blur, Shauna Bolton, Simon Boswell, James Bradshaw, Necia Bray, Breech, Danielle Brisebois, Meredith Brooks, Nick Brophy, Kerry Brothers Jr., Jocelyn Brown, Livingstone Brown, Bubba Sparxxx, Budda, Brooks Buford, Kate Bush, Busted, Ryan Cabrera, Café Tacuba, Joi Campbell, Gil Cang, Luciana Caporaso, Benny Cassette, Cannibal Corpse, Belinda Carlisle, Sue Ann Carwell, Caviar, Caviar (Kannon Cross), Guy Chambers, Tracy Chapman, Melanie C, Clem Snide, Jay Clifford, Citizen Cope, City High, Carlyton K.K. Clanton, The Clipse, Phil Collins, Armando Colon, Melvin Saint Nick Coleman, Sean P. Diddy Combs, Harry Connick Jr., Bernadette Cooper, Coral, Counting Crows, Deborah Cox, Graham Coxon, Shondrae Crawford, Kenneth Crouch, The Crystal Method, Curt & Bob, D-12, Da Brat, LeShawn Daniels, Danny D, Danny P, Terence Trent D'Arby (aka Sananda Maitreya), N'Dea Davenport, Iva Davies, John Deacon, Default, Darrell De-Lite Allamby, Cathy Dennis, Depeche Mode, Josh Deutsch, Chris Difford, Kara Dioguardi, Dirty Vegas, Divinyls, Antonio Dixon, DJ Clue & Duro, DJ Jazzy Jeff, DJ Sheats, DJ Skribble, Johnny Dollar (aka Johnny Sharp), The Donnas, Doves, Terrance Dudley, Jerry Duplessis, Jermaine Dupri, Paul Durham, Ms. Dynamite, Tim Easton, JB Eckl, Jason Edmonds, Fil Eisler, Electric Soft Parade, Enya, Eristopher, Michelle Escoffery, Marquez Etheridge, Fabolous, Ricky Fante, The Federation, John Feldmann, Fergie, Filter, Fish, Five For Fighting, The Flaming Lips, Flaw, Flick, Keith Flint, Foo Fighters, Foster & McElroy, Amy Foster Gillies, Andrew Frampton, Giuliano Franco, Justine Frischmann, Fundisha, Sia Furler, Nelly Furtado, Julian Gallagher, James Gass (pka Pro-Jay), Gem, Antony Genn, Goo Goo Dolls, Good Charlotte, Missy Gibson, Howard Goodall, Qur'an Goodman, Karl Gordon (pka K-Gee), Martin Gore, Gorillaz, Graham Gouldman, George Green, Pat Green, Paul L. Green, Steve Greenberg, Greenwheel, Geri Halliwell, Ashley Hamilton, Ed Harcourt, Jeremy Harding, Ben Harper, Rich Harrison, Tammie L. Harris, Terry Harris, David Harrow (aka James Hardway) (aka Technova), Jimmy Harry, Paul Heard, Heavy D, Alex Heffes, Chris Henderson, Michael Henry, Vincent Herbert, Reynada Hill, Rupert Hine, Hod David, Hot Karl, Felix Howard, James Newton Howard, Liam Howlett, Mick Hucknall, Van Hunt, Angela Hunte, Chrissie Hynde, Icehouse, Idlewild, Enrique Iglesias, Ill Nino, Ima Robot, Incubus, Indigo Girls, J-Dub, J-Kwon, J-Praize, Jagged Edge, Jam & Lewis, Janet Jackson, Alex James, Jamiroquai, Jay-Z, Lemarquis Jefferson, Rodney Jerkins, Jewel, JIVEjones, Jodeci, Damon Johnson, Puff Johnson, Norah Jones, Theresa Jones, Tyrice Jones, Maurice Joshua, Kandi, Shawn Kane, Guyora Kats, Dave Katz, Jay Kay, KB & Spec, KC-I & Jo Jo, Kelis, Dave Kelly, Tom Kelly, Kenna, Alicia Keys, Stephen Kipner, Jack Knight, Savan Kotecha, Lenny Kravitz, Krucial, Jack Kugell, Ty Lacy, Eritza Laues, Patrick Leonard, Paul Leonard-Morgan, Andres Levin, Keri Lewis, LG, Libertines, Dave Lichens, Harold Lilly, David Lindsey, Lit, Angel Lopez, Lo-Pro, Lostpro
  • Re:Torrent (Score:4, Interesting)

    by alphaseven (540122) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @06:34PM (#9539520)
    What's the point DRMing in one market and not another - the Internet doesn't respect physical boundaries.

    This'll have no effect on internet piracy, though i think the point may be to make it harder for regular people to burn a copy for a friend or to get people who use portable MP3 players to buy the album again from an online service.

    The fact that they're doing it in some markets and not others probably means someone will be doing some research as to how it effects sales.

  • by freaker_TuC (7632) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @06:36PM (#9539530) Homepage Journal
    The full comment what happened to my pc is available here [slashdot.org] and I am still not happy with it ....

    I wonder why I deserved my CD-ROM drive not to be working anymore because I have tried to copy my friends legal-bought CD to the Archos of him.

    I can't read anything anymore through the CD-ROM drive, no data and no audio cd's, nothing works since I have inserted the new Beasty Boys CD.

    I am really starting to get annoyed since this means a complete re-install of that PC which I do not have the time (or money) for. A lot of data is on backup but also a lot of data (my vinyl and protected CD's ripped to WAV format) will be lost after this re-install.

    These copyprotections are taking more time than I have; to be even more specific, certain CD's like Solid Sounds I need to rip manually to be able to USE this CD in my older car cd player and pro Denon DJ CD player!!! Since I am DJ and using vinyl and CD's a lot I find this unacceptable.

    Is this copyprotection a convenience only for the record company or should the audio CD be a convenience for the listener? Where's the time you put in the CD in your favorite cd player you like to listen to the music you like ? The time of putting your cd in your car cdplayer, cd-rom drive or professional CD player is over and it's only getting worse, looking to this example of the latest CD I tried to rip for my friend.

    I used to buy 2 to 5 cd's a month, since I am not sure anymore which cd's work or not I started buying more vinyl again, but hell, I do not want to buy ANY releases of the same producers that cripple the audio CD's I have bought for 20 EURO or more!

    The recording industry has lost at least 600 EURO last year only because I do not want to buy or use cd's anymore.. what's the use to buy a cd if I can't use it?

    I have built up a nice record collection of +30000 vinyl records and +2000 cd's. Probably the collection of my cd's will not be updated anymore as protest to this kind of behavior towards the consumer. I currently have about 62 cd's of the last 2 years that I cannot use at all unless I rip it and copy it. This is about 1200 EURO/$ I have lost because I cannot use them as DJ.

    This will conclude the recording industry will not get MY money of minimally 720 EURO/$ per year anymore, which I will spend on independent vinyl recording companies which are not related to the ones that cripple MY cd's I have bought with my well-deserved money.
  • by MP3Chuck (652277) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @06:46PM (#9539566) Homepage Journal
    From the Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]: "Philips have stated that such discs, which do not meet the Red Book specification, are not permitted to bear the trademarked Compact Disc Digital Audio logo."
  • by freaker_TuC (7632) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @06:54PM (#9539611) Homepage Journal
    I have made a post about this matter on my personal site ; since it's something I am quite annoyed of... It's updated to a full article/rant.
    ---
    My soulmate wanted to rip the CD to put on his Archos Jukebox, since he is not using CD's anymore but still buys them to be legal and to have the full version.

    Since I have put in the CD I can't run my company invoice system anymore, can't do anything at all with that cdrom drive, can't even play a game. Every time I put in the CD it cannot be recognized by my system.

    I already tried to uninstall the software but the problem stays, which forces me to reinstall the PC completely (which I definitely don't have the time for now at the moment and will cost me days to get my invoicing and updates done).

    Is this legal ? Can this be allowed ? I am literally loosing money now just because I wanted to rip that legal and bought cd for him straight to his Archos. It's not even music I like to listen to... (no offense intended to all fans around here) ...

    Apparantly it is legal folks ..
    CD's that demolish your PC ready to reinstall!...

    I am really starting to get even more annoyed since I do not know which CD's I can even TRUST anymore without the need to re-install my PC? To stay on topic ; A lot of data is on backup but also a lot of data (my vinyl and protected CD's ripped to WAV format) will be lost after this re-install.

    These copyprotections are taking more time than I have; to be even more specific, certain CD's like Solid Sounds I need to rip manually to be able to USE this CD in my older car cd player and pro Denon DJ CD player!!! Since I am DJ and using vinyl and CD's a lot I find this unacceptable. Put in this pro-DJ player and you got to wait up to 6 minutes before the CD *might* get read; which is too long for a clubDJ to mix to the next song; unless I have a 8-10 minute song running from vinyl...

    Is this copyprotection a convenience only for the record company or should the audio CD be a convenience for the listener? Where's the time you put in the CD in your favorite cd player you like to listen to the music you like ? The time of putting your cd in your car cdplayer, cd-rom drive or professional CD player is over and it's only getting worse, looking to this example of the latest CD I tried to rip for my friend.

    And this is not even the end, my soulmate has bought 2 other CD's, which one of them is the new Faithless CD (the other one I can't remember because we have a different taste (and yet the same) of music) and he can't rip it to use on his MP3 player *and* he can't use it on his home CD player (unreadable disks).

    I used to buy 2 to 5 cd's a month, since I am not sure anymore which cd's work or not I started buying more vinyl again, but hell, I do not want to buy ANY releases of the same producers that cripple the audio CD's I have bought for 20 EURO or more!

    The recording industry has lost at least 600 EURO last year only because I do not want to buy or use cd's anymore.. what's the use to buy a cd if I can't use it?

    I have built up a nice record collection of +30000 vinyl records and +2000 cd's. Probably the collection of my cd's will not be updated anymore as I protest to this kind of behavior towards the consumer. I currently have about 62 cd's of the last 2 years that I cannot use at all unless I rip it and copy it. This is about 1200 EURO/$ I have lost because I cannot use them as DJ.

    This will conclude the recording industry will not get MY money of minimally 720 EURO/$ per year anymore, which I will spend on independent vinyl recording companies which are not related to the ones that cripple MY cd's I have bought with my well-deserved money which I pay my taxes on.

    For so far my rant ... for the ones that care ; I started to care a lot since I have lost my cd-rom drive on a very mysterious way
  • Re:What do I care? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Shai-kun (728212) <jeroenc@jscwebde ... .nl minus author> on Saturday June 26, 2004 @07:30PM (#9539782)
    I downloaded it just because of the DRM. Turned out I don't even like the album.
  • by sevinkey (448480) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @08:30PM (#9540009)
    Many of the major labels don't exactly get it. Working for a DRM company, it has been very interesting to see exactly how distant these folks are from reality. They are uninformed of exactly what the people want, and that people are willing to pay a fair price for a fair product. They tend to base all of their decisions off the buying habits of teenagers (probably not THAT bad of an idea) and have somewhat of a grasp on the technology that was available for protecting content in the late 90's.

    I don't see them selling pay-per-play. Subscription services, maybe and probably, but I think the free-market's gonna kill the pay-per-play idea.
  • Re:Cache (Score:2, Interesting)

    by GumphMaster (772693) on Saturday June 26, 2004 @08:39PM (#9540035)

    ...sets up an audio player into the users RAM (not hard drive) to playback the RED book audio on the disk.

    The technology does activate a proprietary Macrovision player in order to play the CD on a PC, and that player converts WMA compressed files to audio on the fly.

    Apart from the obvious self-contradiction (Red Book audio is uncompressed stereo, while WMA compressed files clearly are not) doesn't this serve as an admission of deceptive trading practices? They are presenting the disc in a form that implies a certain quality level in the reproduction but actually delivering something less: compressed audio.

  • Almost pregnant... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Archfeld (6757) * <treboreel@live.com> on Saturday June 26, 2004 @08:44PM (#9540053) Journal
    What if you are a laptop user and regularly use the SUSPEND TO DISK function which copies the current RAM image to disk ? Does this imply I can got to the EMI building and just HANG OUT in the lobby and discourage people from entering and using the facility as long as I have a home else where ? If I write a virus in a run time environment, ship it to a server and it never writes to disk that IT IS LEGAL, in Europe at least ?....

    *thinks perhaps the brownies were a bit to strong this time, and wanders off mumbling to himself*
  • by Ilgaz (86384) on Sunday June 27, 2004 @02:36AM (#9541020) Homepage
    Tell me how do I buy from iTunes music store as a guy from Istanbul?

    I guess you are american. CIA unearthed an amazing conspiracy, http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

    See? There are indeed other countries than USA on planet. :)

    I am already mad to RIAA not Apple since they don't allow a worldwide shop. Its amazing...
  • by veg (76076) on Sunday June 27, 2004 @07:01AM (#9541525) Homepage Journal
    Compare and contrast:
    "3. The copy protection system used for all EMI/Capitol releases including 'To the 5 Boroughs' is Macrovision's CDS-200, which sets up an audio player into the users RAM (not hard drive) to playback the RED book audio on the disk."

    Vs

    "The technology does activate a proprietary Macrovision player in order to play the CD on a PC, and that player converts WMA compressed files to audio on the fly."

    So "RED book"==WMA ?
  • by maximilln (654768) on Sunday June 27, 2004 @10:22AM (#9542332) Homepage Journal
    I think the end goal is to create a new business model around pay-per-play
    Absolutely. They've realized that all of us entering our 30s aren't going to buy many new CDs and they're still trying to milk us for every last drop they can get. We were the ones that loaded up on import singles from England at $25/pop over the last ten years. The new generation of teenagers doesn't care about remixes because they already have a million of them (kindly supplied by us). We were the generation that put the money into the remix movement. What thanks do we get for it? None. Only the proposition to BOHICA.

    don't kid yourself into thinking the riaa just doesn't get it... what's scarier than them not getting it is that they do get it and they're using that against us
    I've been saying this for years. Not just about the RIAA, but about any powerful political entity from individual senators up to entire governing bodies. I usually get shouted down for being a paranoid hippie freak.
  • by CrosbieFitch (694308) * <crosbie@cyberspaceengineers.org> on Sunday June 27, 2004 @03:53PM (#9545148) Homepage
    Good points parent.

    However, whilst the RIAA may wish to move to an IP based world where users never actually get their grubby hands on music, but are merely licensed to have the privilege of listening to it...

    There will be another world, similar to one that slashdotters know so well, i.e. the 'open source' equivalent of music. This will be music that explicitly permits people to copy it, remix it, and sell it with added value (packaging, liner notes, etc.).

    We're heading for polarisation:
    1) Heavily locked down IP/music with draconian enforcement.
    2) Free music.

    On the one hand the wealthy plebs will simply pay their subscriptions and have music on demand, enjoying plenty of convenience, and on the other, the music geeks will file share the free music until the cows come home.

    The question is, which market will musicians go to in order to build up their audience? Perhaps some will make their initial music free in order to virally market themselves, but once their audience is at a critical mass they'll switch over to iTunes et al...?

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