Saudi Webmaster Acquitted of Terrorism Charges 909
terrymr writes "Saudi Student Sami Omar Al-Hussayen was found not guilty on charges that he 'rendered techical assistance to terrorists' by acting as the webmaster for an Islamic charity. Said one juror: 'The part that surprised me was when I read the First Amendment instructions. I was surprised to learn that people could say whatever they want... providing it would not cause imminent action.'" You might remember our previous coverage of this story. In addition, the AP (via CNN) has more information as well.
Went to school (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Don't tell this to the PeePers (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:First Amendment Message? (Score:3, Interesting)
Or we could instead do what law enforcement is supposed to do: Keep an eye on people when there is probably cause, not just because of causal factors or skin color or nationality. Do you have any idea how many perfectly innocent foreign Islamic men exist around the world?
Islamic websites. (Score:5, Interesting)
HOWEVER, recently I've witnessed the influx of HATE sites claiming to be "islamic" sites. The preech hate and praise desruction. I'm all for free speech, but the freedom of a group or indivduals aren't absolute, and it shouldn't infringe or in anyway threaten the freedoms of others. In these sites they are calling for attacks on western intrests everywhere. They cheer for teh killing of westerners and/or Chrstians and calling for more acts like teh ones we saw in Saudi. I think the freedom of speech those ppl. have should be revoked because they very grossly abused.
bare in mind I'm a Muslim, and I'm not flaming Islam or have any hidden agenda.
What's the deal with freerepublic.com? (Score:4, Interesting)
So, just out of curiosity, I decided to track down a couple of conservative forums. I was curious as to some conservative viewpoints on a couple things.
And I couldn't *find* any. Liberal forums are all over the place, but conservative forums are *damned* hard to find. Finally, I ran across freerepublic.com and took a look. Freerepublic was the *only* active conservative forum that I ran across, and it seemed to be quite small, incredibly amateurish, with rampant misspellings and grammatical errors, and boasted an absolute horde of *dumb* users. If people made the kind of logic errors they do on freerepublic on kuro5hin, they'd get immediately called out.
Re:First Amendment Message? (Score:4, Interesting)
America (Score:3, Interesting)
America *used* to be a shining light for freedom in our world. We used to fight for the rights of oppressed people, fight for freedom of speech, and label anyone who dared try to limit our God given constitutional rights as traitors and deal with them accordingly. Then, in a few days in September 2001, that all changed for some reason.
Now, we label those who want Americans to have unrestricted freedoms as traitors. We lable those who speak their minds and take their liberties seriously "terrorists" and we crucify anyone who doesn't tout whatever party line happens to be in effect at the moment (it really is a moving target).
Cases like Mr. Al-Hussayen, the Iraqi prison abuses, and countless others serve as a sad reminder that this is not the America that many of us grew up in or really want to be a part of. In the Reagen years, they say we felt a sense of national pride. We were proud to be Americans. Now, I think we simply feel a sense of national shame.
Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming President Bush for all of this. I do believe that he is a good man trying to do what he believes is right for his country. But there are others in our government who, for whatever reasons, seem to have set up another of the worlds great evil empires and are weilding that power to go after people like Sami Omar Al-Hussayen.
We wonder why people the world over dispise us as a people. We wonder why people think our government and political system are evil. We wonder why nobody trusts us. I'm sure Mr. Al-Hussayen, many Iraqi citizens, and a few American citizens could give us a lot of reasons why.
It is good news that he was found not guilty. Unfortunately, like another poster here says, this won't end the governments persecution of innocent people. They will simply view him as one that got away, draft legislation to tighten loopholes, take away a few more freedoms, and continue the fight. Man, what a year this 1984 is...
Why was he deported? (Score:5, Interesting)
What kind of legal circus has been set up, when you either spend time in jail or get kicked out of the country? Was he really here illegally, or is the government just deporting him because they know he doesn't have the resources to fight TWO legal battles back to back? Neat way to get rid of the problem, from a Dept of Homeland Security asshat point of view.
Re:First Amendment Message? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Free Press's ignorance and MURDEROUS HATEMONGER (Score:2, Interesting)
Please note these opinions are my own. I do not represent anyone else who may have known Sami. When he was arrested it his us like a ton of bricks, and I knew the new McCarthyism was upon us.
Re:Free Press's ignorance and MURDEROUS HATEMONGER (Score:3, Interesting)
I trolled there once with some bad words about RR and they threatened to come beat me up. I think their lawyers might be more effective.
Re:First Amendment Message? (Score:5, Interesting)
They're about 600 years, developmentally, behind you guys.
They're right now in the "temper tantrum" stage. The Christians embarked on the Crusades at this point in their development.
Re:First Amendment Message? (Score:3, Interesting)
Krakauer's book is not about separation of church and state, the ACLU, or freedom of or from religion. It is about what happens when faith gets carried to radical extremes, and its point is that the US has extremists that are as bad or worse than the Taliban and al-Qaeda. Specifically, it explores the roots of a cold-blooded murder (mother and infant daughter) carried out by a pair of fundamentalists from one of America's "fastest growing religions" because "God commanded them to do it", and also takes a look at some of the other disturbing practices (rape, incest, child molestation, and so on) perpetrated in the name of faith. It isn't a condemnation of all faith or all religion, but it does point out the dangers of taking any faith to extremes. The US needs to deal with the problems it has internally with extremists, as well as the problems it faces with external extremists. Most people in the US are apparently not even aware that such internal extremists even exist - "Under the Banner of Heaven" helps to correct that problem. Again, I highly recommend it.
Aside: I don't support the current actions in LA. The crosses are on the seal for historical, not religious reasons, and fit within the context of the rest of the seal. Will they campaign to change the name "Los Angeles" next, because it's "too religious"? I hope not. It's actions like the LA County seal issue that give atheists a bad name.
Re:First Amendment Message? (Score:5, Interesting)
Right, just like I'm not obligated to feel outrage over the prisoner abuse in Iraq.
Except that I do. Beacause I'm a person who wants to stand by my principles and who opposes torture, even if it is done by US soldiers.
Sorry, but if moderate Muslims are against terrorism, then why *aren't* they outraged. If you aren't outraged, then you are essentially condoning the terrorism.
I don't believe in a black-and-white world. It is perfectly acceptable for others to hate the United States. We have done a lot of things that are not acceptable. I am outraged at what we are doing right now.
But terrorism is unacceptable. Just is it's not OK for the Isrelis to bomb apartments, it's not acceptable for Palestinains to bomb Isreli restaurants. It's not OK for you to kill another human except in extremely limited circumstances (and, yes, I am against capital punishment).
If you cannot take a stand against torture and murder, then what do you stand for? If you cannot feel outraged that your people are killing innocent people, if you cannot feel outraged at the decapitation of an American soldier, then what do you stand for?
Muslim moderates *ARE* obligated to take a stand against extremism. It is *NOT* acceptable to stand quietly while such unacceptable acts are commited. Just as I am obligated to take a stand against the actions of US soldiers (and to take a stand against US policy), Muslims are obligated to take a stand against murder.
Unless, of course, they believe it is acceptable.
Sidenote:
I agree that Christians aren't exactly clean either. Religous extremeists are dangerous whatever their belif system is. Conservative Christians scare me as well - I, for one, believe that religion and politics should stay distinctly seperate.
America is not alone (Score:3, Interesting)
"Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming President Bush for all of this."
I wailed when George Bush was declared victor. At that point I had decided to stay away from all news till either President Bush was defeated or retired. September changed all that, for about a year I was really behind the President. I was even for the war in Iraq and the war changed everything I felt.
I think this administration has had its pound of flesh. I thought I knew what I was about. Going into the war, I had concluded the war as being just. Now I am not so sure. The President drew first blood, its that bit which is most bothersome. The position that I now hold is that the anxiety about terrorist attackts from Iraq was probably justified but to go to war over one's anxieties is insane. Pre-emption is I think only justified when one is faced with anihilation like Israel was in 1967
None of these sentiments mean that I hate America or Americans. I believe that America is one of the better things that have come history's ways in a long time. Even in the worst of occasions. When you say people, most of these "people" know only the President (plus assorted characters from American TV shows) so when they say they hate America or Americans, most of the time they mean your President. I personally do not hate your President. I think the man has some admirable qualities. But a job is a job, he is President and he has made a mistake which I franky do not think Presidents should make, he went to war for all the wrong reasons. I can say or do what ever I want to since I am just a civilian but Presidents and Prime Ministers do not have that luxury.
Now I can see why Bush gets away with it! (Score:2, Interesting)
Here's someone serving on a jury who JUST DISCOVERED what the first amendment to the Constitution is all about! People are ignorant! Is it no surprise that Bush and his cronies can use fear to keep uninformed, ignorant people in the dark?
This is how he gets away with taking away our liberties in the name of "protecting" us!
Re:What's the deal with freerepublic.com? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:America (Score:4, Interesting)
-Ted
Re:Don't tell this to the PeePers (Score:4, Interesting)
*****
To: Jeff Head
I am sorry...but the Uncle who was sending him money, for him to have been questioned after 911 because he was at the same hotel with some of the terrorists who crashed the Pentagon,
He did receive a stipend, yes. From the link you provided:
While AL-HUSSAYEN was a student in the United States, he received a stipend for living expenses from a foreign source.
I live in Idaho. I read the paper every day, in print and on-line versions, and your claims regarding his Uncle I've read nowhere else.
Here is a link to a message I posted on Slashdot which still sums up how I feel about this affair:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=92296&cid=7
*****
Pretty threatening and defamatory, wasn't it?
It seems to be part of a general social breakdown. (Score:5, Interesting)
That's interesting that you say it is a new McCarthyism. I had come to the same conclusion. We are seeing a general social breakdown in the United States. Consider the Enron fraud [enronfraud.com] and the WorldCom fraud [worldcomstockfraud.com] and the Tyco fraud [edgarsnyder.com], for example. Large companies are self-destructing.
The U.S. government is another example: Unprecedented Corruption: A guide to conflict of interest in the U.S. government [futurepower.org]
McCarthyism cannot be blamed on McCarthy. He was just one crazy person. There are always crazy people. It was the people who participated and didn't speak up that changed McCarthy from one crazy man to a social movement called McCarthyism.
Scary (Score:5, Interesting)
Sweet fscking Jesus! This is seriously scary stuff. You Americans are always on about Freedom, Democracy and Human Rights. But it seems to me that what this illustrates more than anything is that the average American simply doesn't know and/or care, when it can come as a surprise, that your constitution gives you these rights. No wonder that the GWB can get away with anything!
Now, to look at this from another angle. You know, when people are starving, all they think about is food, and when they are thirsty, nothing seems more attractive than water. So why are subjects like 'freedom', 'democracy' and 'human rights' so important to Americans?
"...most heinous ongoing crime since the 1940s?" (Score:5, Interesting)
"The guy was complicit in the most heinous ongoing crime since the 1940s..."
What about the U.S. government killing 2,000,000 Vietnamese? Where does that fit in?
What about the fact that the U.S. government has bombed 24 countries since the Second World War: History surrounding the U.S. war with Iraq: Four short stories [futurepower.net]. Where does that fit in?
Re:First Amendment Message? (Score:2, Interesting)
FP.
Re:Don't tell this to the PeePers (Score:3, Interesting)
Map? [hostfile.com]
Thousands of Muslims living in "our" country? Thousands?! Where does this guy live? Who doesn't know that millions of Muslims live in this country along with "us"? Just plain shocking.
Re:What's the deal with freerepublic.com? (Score:2, Interesting)
And based on the United States' popular left (Democratic Party) and popular right (Republican Party), I'm really not seeing much (any?!) difference anyway...
Liberty for non-Muslims only (Score:5, Interesting)
"The media down plays the fact that thousands of Muslims ARE living in our Country!" - SheLion
Perhaps nobody has explained to everyone yet that Muslim is not a synonym for terrorist. It's extremely disheartening to see Americans who hold this belief so readily and elicits memories of Japanese concentration camps in America during World War II.
Have we really learned anything from past mistakes?
Re:Free Press's ignorance and MURDEROUS HATEMONGER (Score:3, Interesting)
well this is funny at least (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:It's amazing how much jurors do not know (Score:4, Interesting)
Bullshit. How do you do that if you can't even figure out what the law means or how it could possibly be applied? I've been on a jury, and I've been there.
It's an interesting phenomenon, too, when you come up against this in real life. Our jury had determined for sure that the defendent was guilty on the first count. The second count was a pretty strangely worded law. It was interesting in that situation to see which people "defaulted" to guilty or not guilty once it was clear that we were not going to get a better interpretation of the law from the judge.
But I don't think any of us viewed this as "jury nullification," which the way it is ordinarily described seems like a (constitutionally protected) form of civil disobedience. We weren't motivated by any sort of moral thing, just by confusion.
Re:Read Your History! (Score:3, Interesting)
The Qur'an says clearly "Let there be no compulsion in religion." Muslims are forbidden to forcibly convert anyone, and it's considered a big sin to do so. They're even ordered to allow churches and synagogues to be built and allow them to practice their religion freely. They can even eat pork and drink alcohol, while Muslims can't.
Look at Moorish Spain as an example. For 700 years the Muslims ruled, they allowed freedom of religion and trade. It's considered to be the "Golden Age of Judaism" because Jewish people flourished under that rule while the rest suffered throughout Europe. Jewish art and scholarship is said to have peaked in this age. Maimonides, the eminent Talmud scholar, was born and wrote while the Moors ruled. The prosperity ended after the reconquista, when the Spanish Inquisition descended and both Jews and Muslims were persecuted.
Re:It's amazing how much jurors do not know (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Don't tell this to the PeePers (Score:3, Interesting)
What you do find in Idaho is a general mistrust of the Federal Government and Attorney Generals. Remember Ruby Ridge [constitution.org].
It was a weak case from the start. Ashcroft was doing a witch hunt. With the case they were presenting anyone who sets up up a website with a forum with a single posting inciting violence could get terrorism charges. And the postings referenced in the indictment that Ashcroft quoted read like book reports. For example "The World's Bravest People" about the Chechen mujahideen warriors, "The True Meaning of Shaheed" about how matrydom is an ultimate honor, "The Objectives and Aims of Jihad", and "The Religious and Moral Doctrine of Jihad".
It was if someone posted a document on the honor and bravery of Samurais and the webmaster being thown in jail.
Here is the indictment. [findlaw.com]
As a former UI student who worked in the same lab as Sami, I am glad to see that our court systems do work and that he can return to his family. Let's hope that all accused get a day in court instead of indefinite prison terms and assassinations [pbs.org].