Automakers Try To Keep Repair Codes Secret 513
An anonymous reader writes "Can't get the trouble codes out of your car's computer? Congress wants to help. I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox. Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?" This debate has been going on for several years.
get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, no offense to Ms. Seymour, but she's one dumbass motherfucker. Who the fuck in their right mind pays $120 twelve times ($1440 in total) to be told the same fucking thing? After the first time they told me it was a loose gas cap and I knew that I was tightening it down as best as it could be done I would have ignored (or covered/disabled) the light (which she apparently did after her twelvth visit).
I purchased my second new Saturn SL-series in 8/2002. I just had to take it in for a slipping clutch (at 29,900 which is unheard of as far as I am concerned). They offered me a rental car for free, service that would be finished the next day (probably because they were paying for the rental), and it was all under warranty. Now, like I said, it is unlikely that user error caused a slipping clutch at 30k but it is possible. No questions asked. Seems like they weren't trying to place the blame on the user here and just fixed the damn thing. I wonder if they didn't cover the first time or two and then told her to fuck off and started charging her for wasting their time?
I suggest that Ms. Seymour smartens the fuck up about her car company choices or her insistence on bringing the god damn car back to people who are obviously fucking with her...
I don't see how giving these fucking codes to the smalltime mechanics is going to help one fucking bit for a problem of utter stupidity. Ms. Seymour is going to see cause $$$'s in any automechanic's eyes. In fact, I would be more apt to trust a dealership's service department than some independent... YMMV.
Biiig difference (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox
Simple, a badly maintained car can cause death. A badly maintained Xbox will cost you $99 for a new one. Anyone else spotting the difference here? They arent helping YOU, they are helping the independant garages to keep your car in good shape and help prevent a fatality or two.
Congress allowing reverse engineering of repair codes will allow third party diagnostics systems available at prices the independant can truely afford to pay. This makes them better at maintaining vehicles.
There is a difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Most common use for car codes: fixing your car (legal - but most likely won't be possible with future cars)
The similarity is that game makers make less money if you pirate a game (instead of buying it). Car dealers/manufacturers make less money if you fix your own car (and down pay for their overpriced service and "genuine rippof parts").
"cheap" cars (Score:5, Insightful)
First off, when purchasing a "cheap" car, you get what you pay for. Most of the commercials you see on TV for Kia, Hyundai's and offer the 10-year warranty are crap for this exact reason. The car, a 2002 model is still covered under the manufactuers warranty, however, there's some stipulations. In short, it doesn't cover "user error". Here's a college student who has had the car serviced 12 times for the same problem, and each time told the same thing. Depending on where she lives, she may need to check into her state's lemon law.
I help admin a Mazda 6 [mazda6club.com] enthusiast site and have never heard of anything like this before regarding warranty problems. Any check engine light, whether the drivers fault or not is taken care of without a charge. Paying a $120 fee each time it gets services is ridiculous! Again, just another use to show you the hooks and gimmicks of buying "cheaper" cars thinking that a 10-year warranty will keep you safe from any problems. Our group was lucky. With the help of Mazda service mangers around the US, we were able to get a complete list of trouble codes posted. As was stated in the article the AutoXRay is a wonderful tool to help. It is fairly pricey, but if you have no other way of determining the problem, this would really help and saves on having the repair shop diagnose the problem for you. Instead alll it takes is this scanner to read the codes, determine the problem, and have them fix it. From the article...
"Bryan Hanks, who has taken his 2002 Toyota Prius to his local Houston dealership four times since a single sensor malfunctioned and the Check Engine signal prevented him from using the car's electronic display, said automakers should incorporate USB ports in dashboards to allow consumers to download error messages to a laptop."
Any legitimate scanner will allow you to also download a freeze frame and trouble codes to your laptop or monitor real-time data that may not be available to you through dashboard guages.
IMHO, if after 12 times, I think common sense has to play a big part in the determination process of what's going on. With the advent of cars having tons of microprocessors and computers on-board to control everything from real-time air/fuel ratios to your cabin temperature settings it's no wonder why CEL codes will light up for inane reasons, the gas cap one being the most common. When the reason shows up on the diagnostic computer it most likely shows a fuel leak (depending on car manufactuer). Out of perspective, it seems like a pretty serious problem. However, once all of the fuel lines have been pressure checked and show no leaks, the only problem could be with a loose gas cap. This can go 2 ways.. either she is taking it to the dumbest dealership service department or she is a complete twit herself.
Why? (Score:2, Insightful)
Me? If I see a check engine light in my car, I want to know what it is before I shell out $150 to get the "problem", if there is one, repaired.
Or in other words... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hood welded shut? (Score:4, Insightful)
traditional trades garner more "respect" (Score:5, Insightful)
This does provide an opportunity to educate Congress by showing them that the needs of both professions with respect the DMCA (and other horrors) are basically very similar at heart.
Kia's warranty is disingenuous (Score:5, Insightful)
"Instead of explaining anything to me they just pull out a warranty sheet with a highlighted portion indicating that they don't cover Check Engine light problems."
They don't cover check engine light problems? I can see, on one hand, why they wouldn't do this (money-wise), but on the other, it's not very nice to offer someone what is evidentally perceived to be a blanket warranty for the whole car and then charge for small repairs. I think that Kia and other similar, low-cost automakers should be more forthcoming in their commercials about their warranties.
Car = Xbox, in 30 years (Score:3, Insightful)
This contrasts with computers and technology, because the members of Congress never knew how it worked, so of course there's no reason to open the hood, to extend the metaphor. "Computers? Well, them's crazy things, you better ask my 9 year old nephew... take it apart? Why, you'll probably break it anyway!"
Re:"cheap" cars (Score:5, Insightful)
"There was a problem with the gas cap, $120 please" - leading her to assume they'd replaced/repaired it.
Or did they actually explain "There's a sensor that monitors the proper pressure in the gas tank, if it gets low that light comes on because it may be leaking. It was only getting low because you didnt twist the cap on tight enough."
I have a mitsubishi shitbox and have done the same thing. I know better, and when I see the light I take the cap off and put it back on tightly. I wouldnt expect everyone to know better. A bright red light on your dashboard that says "Check Engine" freaks people out with visions of being stranded on some dark street or desolate country road at 3 AM.
Besides, the point is, she paid 120 bucks a pop when the local garage probably wouldn't have charged her ANYTHING because they'd want her to come back.
People joke about the small-time crooked mechanic, but it's the big dealership chains that really stick it to you.
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:5, Insightful)
Just because the check engine light indicated a loose gas cap one time, or even several times, that doesn't mean that the next time means the same thing. It might mean something serious. There is no way for Ms. Seymour to tell. Nor is there anyway for 3rd partly mechanics to tell. That was sort of the whole point of the article.
Re:Biiig difference... to a Congressman (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple, a badly maintained car can cause death. A badly maintained Xbox will cost you $99
It probably has more to do with the number of Congressmen who own a car versus the number who own an XBox.
Re:Biiig difference (Score:1, Insightful)
The logic is simple, the carmaker doesn't rely on software to make their buck.
The business model or car making doesn't include selling you any software, but the hardware. Software is there just to make sure hardware works right.
The Xbox business model on the other side sells the hardware at loss in hope that you will buy a truckload of games.
So if you chip mod the car, the carmaker couldn't care less, it just wants to make sure you don't make unvalid warranty claims. In any case, if you break the car, they sell you the parts. If you want to fix it by your own means, good.
If you chipmod the xbox, you are basically breaking the MS business model and taking the hardware almost for free without buying as much software as they would have liked. Of course that makes Billy Boy angry, he doesn't like to give anything to anyone for free now does he?
As I said, the logic behing this is really simple.
Luis
Re:Biiig difference (Score:2, Insightful)
I venture that a marketing opportunity exists. This car, this model; it shows what the code is in actual text. You may fix it yourself, gas cap. Or you may have an indie mechanic fix it. Or you may decide to go to the dealer.
Me? like Car Talk, I just put black electrical tape over the check engine light.
eof
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:3, Insightful)
I do agree that she should change dealerships, because they must be either useless or messing with her, but maybe it's not possible in her situation.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:4, Insightful)
More likely, she'd be able to get the same service at a non-dealer shop for a lot less than $120. I had to have the diagnostic code checked in my 2000 Subaru Forester, and the privately owned shop charged me $60 (turned out to be the same thing - an "oxygen sensor" was what tripped the light, and what tripped the oxygen sensor was the leaky gas-cap).
In general, open up the playing field to more competition, and the price will go down. That $60 STILL seems ridiculous, considering the minuscule amount of work actually performed, but you're paying for the knowledge.
The manufacturers have been keeping that knowledge secret from everyone who hasn't passed all the initiation rites and paid all the associated fees to become a "dealer" - anybody going to draw the obvious parallel to Scientology? :-)
Not so odd (Score:3, Insightful)
Computers, on the other hand, are Magic Boxes. They don't know how a computer works, are possibly afraid to learn, and hate it that 14 year old boys know more about it than they do and can cause so much trouble with one. They see the results and power of these fine general problem-solving tools but don't know how to harness it for themselves which frightens them, so they think it's better to regulate it until they do (or so that they don't have to worry about it anymore).
I grant that this is a pretty broad generalization and there are certainly counter examples of my characterization of these men (for instance Al Gore or maybe Jay Inslee) but never underestimate the pride and ego of an old man. It's practically a force of nature.
Re:There is a difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, even if an illegal activity was the "most common" use, it still doesn't excuse limiting actual modding. Piracy is and should be illegal--but modifying physical hardware that you purchased should be legal. We can still own property in the US, right? Where's the crime?
If the music and software industries are losing money to piracy, they should concentrate on improving their business models rather than proposing legislation which limits the freedom and privacy of American citizens.
Re:Biiig difference (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not so odd. It just indicates that Midas, BP Procare, Tuffy, Meineke, Firestone, Sears, Merlin's, Speedy, Monroe, Penske, etc. have a more organized lobbying effort than all those big-time xbox modding companies out there.
They are making the case to congress that a lot of small businesses will be forced out by dealer repair departments if they cannot read the codes. They're movitated because this is a threat to a business they've had for decades, not just a wouldn't-it-be-fun idea.
Re:There is a difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Most common use for modchips in computers: pirating games (illegal)
Quoth I:
Most common use for modchips in cars: circumvention of emissions/rev limiter/speed governor limitations. Many of these will make the cars illegal in some areas. Car mod chips are not illegal.
Try again.
Why not just display what is wrong? (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, how hard would it be to fit a car with an LED/LCD readout that says "Your gas cap is loose or missing." It doesn't have to be a fancy voice like in luxury cars. Just a little readout on or under the dash that tells you exactly what is wrong (as far as the car's sensors can tell, anyway). Maybe a nice message that tells you, "Your transmission has exploded. Seek professional help."
Geez.
-matthew
Simple - it's because of familiarity (Score:4, Insightful)
I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox.
It's simple. They understand cars enough to know what the danger is. They don't understand computers enough to see the same dangers there. (Your XBox example doesn't really highlight the problem, since it is just a game after all - a better example is things like voting machine code and proprietary device drivers.)
Really, that's all there is to it. It's simple familiarity. Screw with people's ability to fix their own cars and you impact a lot of people the congrescritters know personally - they grok what's going on because everyone's got cars, everyone's opened hood on them, and everyone either knows how to fix minor things on them or is just one relationship hop away from someone who does. Now, how many congressmen know the first thing about how computer software is made? How many of them realize just how artificial the line is between software design and software fixing? It's not nearly as clearly cut as the line between designing a car and fixing a car.
Secondly, a congresscritter would never accept that it's okay for someone to get free access to the blueprints from a car manufacturer for how to make the car, but they understand that people should have access to the diagnostic tools. What they don't understand is that that distinction doesn't exist in computer software. The "user-servicable" part of a software program is...the whole thing. And only a programmer can really understand how true that is.
Re:Here we go ... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's because the 'check engine light' indicates an emissions problem, 99% of the time. Therefore if it is turned on, your emissions system is not performing to spec and you will not even be tested until the problem is resolved.
Now, do you smell a racket here or what?
No?
Isn't it in your mechanic's interest to conveniently have that irritating-yet-not-telling-you-anything check engine light go on, so you have to bring it back to be inspected for $75?
Why are you blaming the automotive technician for a problem with your car?
Grr... just another screw-job.
I am totally missing your point. If you don't trust your auto tech, find a good one. There are directories available on the net of certified technicians that are honest. One is called iTAN I think, check google.
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, no offense to Ms. Seymour, but she's one dumbass motherfucker. Who the fuck in their right mind pays $120 twelve times ($1440 in total) to be told the same fucking thing? [...] I suggest that Ms. Seymour smartens the fuck up [...]I don't see how giving these fucking codes to the smalltime mechanics is going to help one fucking bit for a problem of utter stupidity.
Who would do that? Easy my 65 year old mom, alone at home is who! She got a small Hyundai, and had a "Check Engine" light on 7 times. Each time the problem changed, bad wiring the first time, gas injection, exhaust pipe, and so on.
She does not know if the engine is about to die and leave her stranded on the highway at night! Of course she knew that most probably they where abusing her, but could she take any chance? Only the dealer could reset the light.
One of the "alternate garage" mechanic (thats the "smalltime mechanics fucker" for you), was more honnest, he said it's a well known problem, some fumes getting out of the exhaust making the "anti-pollution" system report a false problem. That mechanic could not reset the light (no codes), but at least she had ammo for her next visit. She forced the dealer to unplug the light! It still took 7 times and about 1000$ over 3 years.
Now my mom is a lot smarter than the Average Joe I meet, and more talented for social interaction than your average
Nah... (Score:3, Insightful)
>leave it unlocked and someone will come along and remove the radio
They'll leave the radio, because it's a POS they can't sell, but they'll take your airbag, your seats, rims, your dog, and the herb in the glove box, and then key your paint just so you know where it's at.Re:There is a difference (Score:1, Insightful)
Ah, that explains why it was written for Windows first. So you could watch DVDs under... wait.
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not too puzzling. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Biiig difference (Score:4, Insightful)
People who want access to the code in their Xbox are few, and bitch on Slashdot.
ObHomer (Score:2, Insightful)
You know those balls you put on your antenna to find your car in the parking lot? Everybody should have those!
Poster is an idiot (Score:3, Insightful)
Because, you fucktard, the DMCA applies to copyright enforcement devices and nothing else. No copyrighted content, no DMCA case.
I'm just so sick of people (particularly on slashdot) bitching about the DMCA, copyright law, trademark law, and just about everything else IP without having any clue what the laws actualy say.
Re:Why get your feathers ruffled? (Score:4, Insightful)
The biggest difference I can see... (Score:3, Insightful)
1. The owner of a car has a duty to keep that car in safe operating condition (if it is going to be used on the roads) If the law burdens a man with a responsibility, it must also provide him the means to carry it out. This generally precludes the law from tying him to a single vendor. (Think insurance, you can pay for it or post bond and insure yourself. You can pay for auto service or
buy tools and do it yourself.)
2. The law does not presently burden the owner of a computer to keep it in operating condition (if it is to be used on the internet.) Thus the DMCA may be enforced without creating a conflict.
3. It might be beneficial to require the same standard of care for your computer that we require for your car, but don't hold your breath. Car accidents LOOK a lot more damaging than unsecure computers.