Automakers Try To Keep Repair Codes Secret 513
An anonymous reader writes "Can't get the trouble codes out of your car's computer? Congress wants to help. I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox. Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?" This debate has been going on for several years.
I don't think the DMCA would apply (Score:5, Informative)
Because the DMCA protects copyrighted information that is protected by some sort of security system (although the system is often lame). These auto codes are not protected by any security, besides obscurity.
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:2, Informative)
$120 for a computer diagnostics seems a little steep. Jiffy lube will run one for you for $15 bucks. Where is she taking it that is costing her $120.00 to run a computer diagnostics?
Double Standards in Government? Wow! (Score:2, Informative)
Oh wait... it's about money... that's right.
The RIAA versus the people: the RIAA has the money.
The Car Makers versus the people: The Car Makers have the money.
It's not about principle, it's about money.
There is only one way to fix this: get GOVERNMENT out of the way. Politicians will ALWAYS be bought and sold, unless they lack the power to do anything in the first place. If they couldn't pass a law in the first place, nobody would pay them to pass a law (or ignore a law).
What can you do to reduce government power?
Join the Free State Project [freestateproject.org], and find out! We're reducing government because power corrupts and government power corrupts double standardly so.
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:"cheap" cars (Score:2, Informative)
He made it very clear that any "Check Engine" light should start off with me tightening the gas cap several clicks to ensure that's not the problem.
Apparently miss Seymour either didn't get the spiel, or didn't listen. Hardly Hyundai or Kia's fault (though the Kia's do have some reliability issues of their own).
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:3, Informative)
All this data is available... (Score:5, Informative)
The info is out there and many of the car companies do indeed offer it. They just don't much advertise it. They're too busy making cars to be selling information about them. Don't chalk this up to malice so fast, is what I'm saying. Mark it down as stupidity instead. It seems more likely.
Re:Or in other words... (Score:4, Informative)
Alternate fixes (Score:5, Informative)
Alternatively, you can look it up here [actron.com] Input your car model and year, and the specific code.
OBD-2 Reader (Score:2, Informative)
Plus - the software is open source and on Sourceforge.
AutoZone will do this for free... (Score:4, Informative)
Disclaimer: I work for AutoZone and have for about 2 months now. However, I'm trying hard not to be a shill, sort of thing. Still, if you don't feel like dropping $100 on a reader, this is an alternative you'll want to look into.
It's not as hard as you think (Score:5, Informative)
Not only that there is a great project for retrieving codes under linux. The project is called FreeDiag. It can be found at Sourceforge.net [sourceforge.net]
Not only that, there are some great "open" cables you can build yourself. the BR interface is my fav [obddiagnostics.com]. It happens to work very nicely with freediag.
Hope this helps people that are interested.
When I lived in New Jersey... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:codes aren't available? (Score:2, Informative)
This is just my understanding of things though, I have been wrong before and I'd put money on it happening again.
And there's a disconnect (Score:3, Informative)
(Turn on key but don't start car. Press 'reset' untill all warnings are cleared, press and hold 'option' while pressing 'fuel' four times. The system will then list through all major control sections for any current or recent past error codes.)
My PT cruiser has a similar process (press and hold the trip button while inserting the key and turning to run.)
Why is this such a big deal? _I'd_ like to know when my O2 sensor is kaput and not trust the guy behind the counder saying my muffler bearings need rotating.
Autozone will scan your car for FREE (Score:2, Informative)
It's a pretty nice service for them to provide considering it prevents you from being ripped off by some jackass mechanic ("Yeah, the computer box sez your framistat is kaput."), and also allows you to ignore minor issues like the check-engine light being on because your gas cap sensor is faulty.
Re:I returned a new car after three strikes... (Score:3, Informative)
VAG-COM (Score:3, Informative)
Very cool, and cheap enough for a only slightly mechanically inclined geek to justify.
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Or in other words... (Score:5, Informative)
> certain key is required (?) to remove the radio from the dash, and that he'd have to go to the
> dealer for that.
The tool for this is widely available, and it doesn't cost that much. If the stereo shop your father went to doesn't have one, he should find a different stereo shop.
Here [carstereohelp.com].
Re:Or in other words... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Or in other words... (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, in new VWs, you can build the removal tool from an old credit card. Go to forums.vwvortex.com and search for "radio removal tool" and you'll find instructions and even photos.
However, he may want to keep the original radio around and put it in before going to the dealer in case he ever does have to - they won't hook their scanner up to cars with aftermarket stereos because a lot of installers don't hook them up right, the tool can be fried if this happens, and they just can't count on it being done right.
If he really does want to do this, and it's a '99.5 or newer, put up a reply, I'm happy to try and help.
Or there's always ebay!
VW nut and proud of it.
Re:Biiig difference (Score:4, Informative)
I'm a member of the St. Louis Volkswagen Organization [stlvw.org] (I'm one of the early founding members) and several members have aftermarket scan tools that run on PCs [ross-tech.com].
When the check engine light came on briefly a few months ago, then went out after less than a minute, I put a note up on the club forums asking that a scan tool be brought to the next meeting which was to be held that next upcoming weekend.
After the meeting, I talked to the guy with the scan tool. We connected the tool to the car using the OBDII diagnostic port under the dash, followed the startup procedures described in the tool's manual, and downloaded the code. It turned out to be a momentary sensor blip from one of the numerous sensors in the engine and transmission, and a transient error, nothing serious, so we cleared the code. It never did recur, so it was indeed just the kind of blip that can happen anytime due to a slightly loose wire, gremlins, you name it.
The dealer would have charged me a LOT more than the yearly club membership fee to do the same thing, and the dealer doesn't hold social events, club drives, parties, get-stuff-installed-for-free days, or anything remotely as cool.
The car's a 2000 VW Golf GLS 2.0L, if you want to get on the racket, and feel free to move to St. Louis.
Re:Or in other words... (Score:3, Informative)
Your in-law should have gotten the key when he took delivery of the car from the dealership. However, the dealership should be able to look up the key if it gets lost.
Re:All this data is available... (Score:3, Informative)
Your independent shop will have a code reader with modules which interface to the vehicle and which have a rom in them which contains a lookup table with trouble codes and their descriptions. That's all it does. It usually IS enough to get the check engine light to shut off, but it is usually NOT enough to diagnose a drivability problem that doesn't put up a check engine light or only occasionally does so - the computer will remember the code but it's usually something stupid like "knock detected". You can usually find out the same stuff by looking in the factory service manual to find out what pins to short together, doing so, and counting flashes of the check engine light.
Re:Biiig difference (Score:3, Informative)
The state of California has mandated a certain set of error codes be standardized as a part of the 'OBD-II' standard. Those are mostly emissions-related - but they ARE standardized and well documented all over the place for cars less than maybe 5 or 6 years old. Older cars don't have to conform to any special standard - so they are all over the place.
Some car companies play nice and release all of their error codes publically - others treat them as closely-guarded secrets. Sometimes those secrets 'leak out' and you can find out what they mean with an appropriate web search. Sometimes they don't.
I don't see how the DMCA could be involved here - you read out codes - they are just numbers.
freediag - A GPL'ed car diagnostic package. (Score:5, Informative)
I'm running a project to write a GPL'ed car diagnostic tool that runs under Linux (and probably BSD too). It's called 'freediag' and the current version works well enough to read out error codes (and possibly zero them) on at least a few types of car.
You'll need to buy or build a cable to connect a laptop to the OBD-II port on your car. A simple serial cable won't do because you have to have optoisolators to protect your valuable laptop from the rigours of the crappy signal quality you get from most cars. If you buy one, it'll set you back maybe $70.
Anyway - the project needs developers - and it needs testers (there are lot of different interface cables and a lot of different subtle variations on the supposed standard car interface).
If you are interested - head over to http://freediag.sf.net (of course!) and sign up to the developer's mailing list.
Re:Alternate fixes (Score:3, Informative)
(and for a real informative, find out *how* the OBD knows a particular cyl is misfiring-it's not jut an absence of spark)
Reading the freeze frame (what turned the light on), can be very instructive, if only as a place to start.
Knowing the code that comes out of that freeze frame still requires a bit of basic mechanical troubleshooting skill.
Reagarding my truck (2000 F-150)...the mechanic blew off the misfire as 'we'll fix that after we get the overheating down'. $150 later, still overheats. I hooked up my friends OBD scanner to my laptop, drove for a while, and then analysed the resultant file.
Replace the plug wires, no more intermittent misfire, vastly lower percentage of overheating. It still does it some, but not nearly as bad. Next step is to replace the ignition coil pack.
The newer laptop OBD hookups and software DO snag all the standard codes, and if you get the specific manufacturer pack, all the specific ones as well. AutoTap [autotap.com] sells the extended code sets for $99 each. Or all the majors (GM, FordBasically, you get a virtual dashboard for everything thats going on in the car. Replayable at home for analysis.
There are open source versions of the basic code set as well. As well as instructions for building your own serial port adapter.
Re:Biiig difference (Score:3, Informative)
However, the error codes they could think of back in the mid-1990's that might be useful during a state-mandated emissions control test *ARE* fully documented. Hence, you can tell whether your Oxygen sensor has crapped out - but not necessarily whether the flat tyre monitor is reporting a problem.
HOWEVER, they most certainly DO implement that kind of system for doing things like re-flashing the ECU software. The protection on THAT is like Fort Knox! On my MINI Cooper, if you try to reflash the ECU and get the response to the challenge wrong, the entire car completely shuts down (to the point where you can't even open the doors) for THREE HOURS!
Re:get a new car company or get some smarts. (Score:3, Informative)
While it might sound expensive, so is the scan tool. It's about 2k and requires additional updated proms to keep it updated. And yes, like everyting else knowledge and experience costs:-)
ps... never heard of an evap leak diag code setting and weird o2 reading.
Re:Why get your feathers ruffled? (Score:4, Informative)