EU Moves Toward Software Patents 322
edooper writes "Apparently the patent discussion in Europe has taken a turn for the worse. According to the Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure: 'This Wednesday, the Irish Presidency managed to secure a qualified majority for a counter-proposal to the software patents directive, with only a few countries - including Belgium and Germany - showing resistance. This proposal discards all limiting amendments from the European Parliament and reinstates the laxist provisions from the Commission, adding direct patentability of data structures and process descriptions as icing on the cake. In a remarkable sign of unity in times of imminent elections, members of the European Parliament from all political groups are condemning this blatant disrespect for democracy in Europe.' Read more: swpat.ffii.org."
another USA (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't mind software patents (Score:5, Interesting)
Like google slipping in contextual advertising patents - by a "software" patent - thus working towards being the defacto monopoly because the software patent basically patents the idea of the advertising method thus stemming competition and not protecting any specific technology or research or ideas.
Re:Why? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Patents on Software...uhoh (Score:2, Interesting)
Look who sponsors the irish precidency (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Ethics of Intellectual Property (Score:3, Interesting)
Ridiculous. (Score:5, Interesting)
Then every piece of code anyone writes is a ticking patent time-bomb.
So lets pretend we can have a patent office thoroughly staffed with geniuses gifted with eidetic memories and a sublime sense of of what is original and patent-worthy.
I'm supposed to read the entire patent database (hundreds of thousands of records)? And then once I finish that I only have to keep current with new grants (let alone new applications) - that's probably only dozens or hundreds a day...
Yeah, right. But then if someone comes along and wants a ransom for their patent on dereferencing pointers on Tuesdays or whatever seemed original and innovative 18 months ago, I'll either have to pay up or spend a few million to take on the fight in civil court...
I'm sorry - software patents are ridiculous. Your steel mill will invest in R&D to lower its energy costs, or it won't. But software patents don't create an incentive to do anything other than run for the hills. It's legitimizing barratry - the only winners are the lawyers, for the steel mill, the companies the steel mill sues, and for the other companies that will sue the steel mill for violating their patents, and so on and so forth, forever and ever...
Software patents are thought of by their proponents as a weapon against free software, and a cudgel against less wealthy competitors. And if they accrue enough legitimacy, within our lifetimes the software engineering discipline will be so clogged with them that practically no one can write software except in secret, no matter well you think the patent office can run. It's sadly ironic, really, that you think they spur any kind of innovation, when all they do is insure that no two good ideas are ever likely to be used together without a legal negotiation first...
Re:I'll probably get modded down for this but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't count on it. [ffii.org]
Good or bad (Score:3, Interesting)
The worst thing about software patent right now is that they are granted for way to long. With growth and rate of evolution in software techniques, 3-5 years until patent expiration would be a lot better that 17 years. If a company is not able to cash in in that time frame, then that means that it's innovation is not really innovative.
Bolkestein left Brussels today... (Score:3, Interesting)
http://swpat.ffii.org/news/04/cons0507/
"A leaked document from Bolkestein's DG Internal Market suggests that DG Information Society no longer objects to program claims. This concession by Liikanen is needed in order to rush the Council working group proposal through the ministers' session as an "A item", i.e. a consensus point which does not need any discussion by the ministers."
Robert
Patent reform progress in US? (Score:3, Interesting)
Thanks
Re:Ethics of Intellectual Property (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It is not MS vs. Linux, it is Patents vs. Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
patents favor closed source (Score:4, Interesting)
Most software is made up of very small components put together to create functionality. (loops/ branches| arrays, queues, trees) Its very hard to define something as patentable because by its nature everything in software can be broken down into something that isn't new.
I would have thought little companies would have iritated the big boys (microsoft / apple) to force the governments hand to stop this mess (since companies tend to have the ear of our fine electorate). It really stiffles inovation.
Re:...it's OK....we can still blame MS (Score:2, Interesting)
Software patents, though stupid, are a last ditch effort of the old order trying desperately to cling to the unchallenged market dominance it once had. Too little, too late.
And let's not forget, friends of Open Source, that not all of these commericial entities are bad. IBM, with its monstrous patent portfolio has done wonders for Linux, donating powerful technologies such as RCU and NUMA.
Open Source has fought and won bigger battles than this. It has emerged from obscurity against all odds, amazing even those who have been central to its development. Whole operating systems, relational database manangement systems, web and application servers, office suites, desktop managers, clustering technologies, programming languages, advanced firewall and routing technologies, cross platform widget libraries, XML parsers, TCP/IP implementations, accounting and ERP systems --- the list goes on --- have risen from humble beginnings, from good people who have had the good nature, intelligence, and courage to create them. They have overcome the ridicule of trade journals and imbecilic IT pundits, emerged victorous from opressive corporate lawsuites (AT&T, SCO), and have not only made a name for themselves in the mainstream, but in many cases have also shown themselves to be vastly superior to their commercial counterparts.
Kirk McKusick, in his History of Unix at Berkeley [mckusick.com] recalled when the members of the CSRG first talked about actually trying to free BSD UNIX from AT&T and make it available to the public. Kirk and Mike Karrels, who thought this idea was pipe dreams at best, told Sam Leffler or Steve Bostic (I can't remember which) that they would address the kernel only after free versions of all system programs and utilities had been rewritten. They figured this was a nice way of saying it's never going to happen. Well Sam/Steve went to work getting the word out. At first, there were a few simple utilities that came in, like cat and ls, and more. But after some months, larger things started to roll it, and more and more utilities were falling into place, until one day someone (I believe it was James Clark) announced that he had completely rewritten nroff to the tune of 75,000 lines of code. At that point, Kirk looked at Mike and said something like "Oh Shit, they're really serious about this." A couple years later, BSD UNIX --- the good UNIX --- was free to the world, but only after a fierce and in some cases very personal assault from AT&T.
Despite the best efforts of ridiculous software patents and corrupt politicians brought to you by Microsoft, the hardest part of the battle has been won. This is at best just the Battle of the Bulge in the world war of Gates and Co. It may be painful and difficult, but the heroes of open source have already prevailed. They have shown themselves impervious to the FUD. They have shown themselves powerful enough to develop every kind of software, and capable enough to make it better than many commercial equivalents.
It is because of what they have created, along with us the open source community who have put it to use in our products, businesses,
This is already patentable under the EPC (Score:3, Interesting)
Hi,
This is already patentatble in Europe, and there is little problem with that. The effect of the program on the process of making steel ensures this. IAPA (I am a patent attorney).
To flourish, we need free use of standards, so everyone can build a better Word. Software patents would be bad for the economy. Plus, it may take a page to write down an algorithm, but to get a somewhat bug-free program, it will take almost as long as the original developers. So, the patent wouldn't give that much help. If there are software patents, the source code should be included. That will be somewhat of a counter force.
Yours,
Bert
Re:It is not MS vs. Linux, it is Patents vs. Linux (Score:4, Interesting)
Now, companies like Microsoft, can submit 10 patents a day. Just see slashdot [slashdot.org] a day or two ago. They can afford to spend $50,000 per day, no problem!
Europeans - write to your representants! (Score:3, Interesting)
I did. I even got some replies!
The worst aspect of all of this is that the European Parliament voted for significant amendments last fall (effectively banning software patents). Following the vote the proposal was simply retracted and the *original* version is now presented to the European Council, thereby mucking the entire democratic process.
I also wrote to magazines and newspapers, trying to bring their attention to that issue.
I'm also contemplating filing an official complaint with the EU (not because of software patents, but because of the undemocratic way the directive was handled in this inctance). The EU has the *legal* obligation to investigate official complaints.
Although there may be frustration, it's not time to give up, yet.
What he is smoking is... (Score:4, Interesting)
EU Company : Let's patent this in the E.U.
US Company : Let's expand to the E.U.
US Company : Oh hot diggity-dang! Will you look at that! Nobody here patented it, 'cos they can't, we won't have any trouble competing on a 'level' playing field!
EU Company ; Let's expand to the U.S.
EU Company : Aww shite. Wtf? We have to license this if we want to operate in the U.S. ?
EU Company : Eh.. wtf ? Some US Company just started business here, and is using our ideas that we couldn't patent!
US Company : Haha. Silly Europeans - either they pony up for a license, or they just don't get to enter the U.S. market. Win/win for us!
So yeah, that's basically what he's smoking.
There's finer nuances to this, but that's the gist of it.
Re:Cut the xenophobic crap... (Score:3, Interesting)
However, of the two of us, I seem to be the one who's far more aware of the real world pressures put on politicians and lawmakers: these people didn't suddenly wake up one day and say "Hey, software patents are a good thing!" of their own accord, someone led them to believe that, and that someone (clearly) were businesses and their lobbyists.
The fact that software patents (such as Amazon's one-click shopping patent) stifle competition is "obvious" to you and me, but it clearly isn't "obvious" to everyone. The difference between us and the businesses that support software patents (and, clearly, there are some) is that they can afford to throw a lot of money wooing others to hear their side of the story.
It's not a perfect world, but it's the world that we live in.
So, in the future please, I'd be greatful if you didn't make a knee-jerk reaction and bite my head off just because I try to explain why something has happened - especially when I've made it abundantly clear that I disagree with what's happened in my original post. Or, in your terms, I'm not smoking anything, but perhaps you should stop toking whatever's in your pipe and actually read my post before venting your spleen in my direction next time.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)
here we go again! (Score:0, Interesting)
Firstly, the EU directive just _harmonises existing case law_ - without the directive, what's going to happen is that different EU states are going to take different approaches and thus it will be a nightmare.
Secondly, the EU directive _actually reduces the degree of software patentability_, because currently after IBM, claims to "programs on a carrier" are allowed, but the directive removes the ability to claim this.
Thirdly, it's been stated over and over again that there are "multiple software business models" at work in Europe, and there's no specific reason to favour closed model approaches to open model approaches: they all work, and provide revenue and so on.
Fourthly, in terms of "software patents blocking open source", well there's a very small list at GNU, and in fact this is how it should work: it's to be expected that some patent owners have developed inventive appraoches that they are holding away from open source - fair enough, it's the perojative. It doesn't seem as though Linux, OpenOffice, mysql and numerous other open source products have been affected anything more than trivially.
Fifthly, the EU always maintains more stricter examination than the US: business methods per se are _not_ patentable in the EU, and equally, flakey software patents have a harder time getting through. Stop transposing the failures of US into the EU.
Sixly, for the so called "30,000" illegal software patents issued over the last 30 or so years or whatever, I repeat that the GNU list suggests that less than 0.01% of these are impacting open source. That's amazing! And hardly a justification to pull the system apart.
Finally, the protests in Brussels are are a laugh: against multimillion dollar turnover businesses using patents and contributing to the wellbeing of the EU economy, you have a bunch of jokers with "terrorism is corporate suicide" and other fairly poor and non-objective slogans doing pantomines. Unless the arguments show facts and figures, and more substantive evidence, this is entirely dismissable.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Ridiculous. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's also different because a programmer does tens of small "inventive steps" per day while programming. Just like the author of a story makes tens of small "inventive steps" per day. It's the normal course of action when doing something based on creativity and will be realised much more as opposed to when you are constrained by physical properties of materials. You're hampered more or less only by your imagination and creativity, instead of by the physical world.
This means that the "inventive step" condition of patent law is totally unfit for creations in the realm of abstraction, as it's passed by too many things. The newness and inventive step (or usefulness, in the US) conditions are merely filters to try to make sure that most granted patents are of good quality. They fail to achieve this in the software world, as they were devised for the physical world. It's a completely outdated concept when applied to today's information society, which is much better served by copyright (encourage as many separate works of the same ideas as possible to increase competition, but inhibit plagiarising or plain copying of other people's work).
In the physical world, laws of nature are not patentable. In software patents, there are no equivalents of laws of nature. The patented technique doesn't have to be able to run on a computer of today, it just has to be representable in the mathematical Turing model, that's all. That's one reason why so many software patents seem so basic: there is nothing basic that is unpatentable.
Finally, patent law is an economical law (devised in the 15th century, no less). You introduce patents in a field because you have good indications it will improve innovation and competition in that field. So before introducing it in software, you should first research whether they will have the same effect. Thanks to the US, we have already several economical studies, including the one by the FTC, that indicate they don't have positive effects, and even hamper progress.
Re:We are better than you silly Yanks! (Score:2, Interesting)
Have you lobbied anyone, have you written letters, have you protested?
Or are you sitting on your ass, fat and content because you are now united with your neighbors?