Operation Fastlink Cracks Down on Warez 1052
An anonymous reader writes "Beginning yesterday morning, law enforcement from 10 countries and the United States conducted over 120 searches worldwide to dismantle some of the most well-known and prolific online piracy organizations.
Among the groups targeted by Operation Fastlink are well-known organizations such as Fairlight, Kalisto, Echelon, Class and Project X, all of which specialized in pirating computer games, and music release groups such as APC. The enforcement action announced today is expected to dismantle many of these international warez syndicates and significantly impact the illicit operations of others."
wallpaper bubbles... (Score:5, Insightful)
How is this YRO? (Score:5, Insightful)
Another mis-categorized YRO post (Score:2, Insightful)
Right...
So is this tied to the earlier story.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Class (Score:2, Insightful)
Your Rights Online?? (Score:3, Insightful)
Class releases have been around for years, I'm amazed it took this long for them to get shut down (at least, temporarily).
Wack-A-Mole (Score:5, Insightful)
Low impact event. (Score:2, Insightful)
Somehow I dont think this effort is going to do much to stop software piracy.
THG still alive and well. (Score:5, Insightful)
Come to think of it, isn't Razor 1911, and a few other "big players" still in the game? I guess they are "un-touchables"... Piracy might be seriously diminished one day, but it won't happen until the NWO anyways..
Re:wallpaper bubbles... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So is this tied to the earlier story.... (Score:4, Insightful)
So I'd say it's a safe bet to say they're the same storyline.
word choice (Score:3, Insightful)
They sure do use a lot of words. illegal is redundant. Intellectual property is wrong because I think they are going after copyrights and not also patents. Piracy is cute and coloquial, but it doesn't refer to sea-faring attacks, then the DoJ shouldn't use it. This would be much better:
And the third-to-the-last paragraph is great, too:
If these programs are not for sale, then how do they arrive at the $ figure? You can't use the retail value of the final package; no one would pay that much for an unwarrantied, probably time-limited beta. In fact, very rarely do even legitimate users pay for a beta version.
I also like the word "seized" used with "pirated works" because it makes it seem like it's physical property. It's just another attempt to make infringement equal to theft. I expect better from my DoJ.
MOVE OVER MAFIA! (Score:3, Insightful)
these international warez syndicates
Yes... 14 year old uber-geeks cracking games and software in mom's basement... yes, that something deserving the title "synicate".
Nice to see the government(s) spending money going after such terrifying villians instead of your friendly neighbourhood rapists, child molestors and murderers, eh?
Sad... and the media is playing into it...
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:2, Insightful)
You mean, serving the citizens of their countries, who are trying to make money by selling software? You mean, enforcing the law?
How dare they! It would make much more sense for them to start working for the software pirates. ::rolls eyes::
Re:Capitalism is the root. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is Earth.
There is no solution. We just muddle along the best we can and as far as I can tell, capitalism seems to give the most people the most opportunity to make their lives into whatever it is they want.
Unfortunately, some people still get screwed. See line #1.
It seems to me... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Class (Score:5, Insightful)
If the Linux kernel got hijacked and put into, say, some other Well Known OS illegally, can you tell me that nobody around here would making any "John Ashcroft should drop the hammer on these guys" remarks?
I don't doubt that some favors exchanged hands to get this kind of attention marked as a priority at Ashcroft's level. But keep in mind that the same law that works for them works for everyone else too, no matter how lop-sided it may seem sometimes.
Re:Class (Score:1, Insightful)
gg nextmap
Re:How is this YRO? (Score:2, Insightful)
if there is majority saying it is right
then it is legal
habits change over time so does our law
why should I not be allowed to fight for this right by all legal means
and how does this not affect our rights online
Re:Class (Score:4, Insightful)
"Why are my tax dollars being spent giving me a speeding ticket when there are real crime organizations out there killing people?"
Because ALL laws should be enforced.
So when will they take out spammers? (Score:2, Insightful)
Because Al Qaeda is not evil enough? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:5, Insightful)
1)Don't buy it. If nobody buys a product at a given price, the company will lower it or go out of business.
2)Create your own competing product at a price you deam resonable.
3)Vote to remove the legal protections that you bash the government for enforcing as is thier duty.
VPN's wont do anything to stop the law (Score:5, Insightful)
Some of you techno-toads need to get your head out of the web and realize that technology isnt the solution to EVERYTHING.. Not only does john law have the capability of breaking a lot of VPN's, but he doesnt really need to.
these guys storm offices and houses, they pull you from your keyboard before you can lock it out, they have "agents" work the chat networks and so on, becoming "friends" and insiders of these "syndicates".
Its very difficult to carry on this type of illegal activity through a structured or organized manner against the deep deep deep resources of both the sowftare industry and the goverment. The only way to battle them is for hugely distributed and un-localized distribution....
basicly P2P... now P2P with strong encryption and trace-blocking, along with various other privacy protections distributed across enough users is a much more difficult thing to kill. These pirate groups are asking for trouble by making themselves targets.
Re:Capitalism is the root. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:5, Insightful)
An association of people or firms authorized to undertake a duty or transact specific business.
An association of people or firms formed to engage in an enterprise or promote a common interest.
A loose affiliation of gangsters in control of organized criminal activities.
An agency that sells articles, features, or photographs for publication in a number of newspapers or periodicals simultaneously.
A company consisting of a number of separate newspapers; a newspaper chain.
The office, position, or jurisdiction of a syndic or body of syndics.
So yes the term is used correctly. As far as the rest of your post, are you somehow implying that these groups have done no wrong? Copyright is a matter of Law so I fail to see how having law enforcement deal with it is "The feds are just taking care of their corporate masters."
These people were breaking the law, they knew it, and they got what was coming to them. Don't make it sound like they are some sort of folk hero 'sticking it to the man' when they're nothing but petty little criminals.
Re:or from the developers perspective. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Another mis-categorized YRO post (Score:3, Insightful)
Honestly, it took me maybe 3 seconds to realize that the FBI doesn't chase down some kid running Kazaa and that this was obviously the sweeping up of a prominent warez group.
The Right Enforcement (Score:5, Insightful)
Step 1: They tried busting people like Ed Felten for talking about piracy tools. This was genuinely evil, and we bitched, saying "they should only go after the pirates, not people talking about tools that might be used for piracy."
Step 2: They started busting the pirates themselves. They handled it in a fairly Snidely Whiplash sort of way, but it is definitely within the bounds of the spirit of the law. And you all bitched, saying, "these are just home users, the real problem is the piracy rings."
Step 3: The crack a bunch of piracy rings. This is totally in line with the spirit and proper use of copyright. If some company were doing something similar with GPL software, we'd go after them and we would win. Please try to retain what remains of your credibility - don't bitch when organized, premeditative law breakers get their comeuppance.
Re:or from the developers perspective. (Score:5, Insightful)
I call bullshit!
I would accept, "With piracy becoming more and more rampant, in future, game developers may not see royalties for their work," but what you said is complete and utter hogwash.
It's not unlike the RIAA blaming most of their problems on piracy. Yes, piracy does affect many companies bottom lines, but blaming it for your not getting paid a few bucks extra is just moronic. Tell me... are you saying what your publisher is telling you? ie "Sorry, there will be no Christmas this year because too many people pirated the game and we can't afford to pay you."
If you believe that or anything similar then you do not understand the economics of 'piracy' very well.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I admit it, the number of music CD's and computer games I have purchased over the last few years is negligible. Not because of piracy, not because of P2P or 'borrowing copies'... but because I have not been able to afford much of what is out there, and of what there is, very very little of it I have felt was worth my hard earned dollar.
I'm sorry for not supporting your delusional world by buying your product. I just can't afford to these days.
Does this mean people will stop pirating MS soft? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Capitalism is the root. (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference between you and a corporation is that your sole purpose is not to make money. A corporation exists only to make money. If they give away free medicine to kids, it's to improve their image so they can make money. If killing 8,000 people in Bhopal will make them money, you better hope you don't live in Bhopal. Making money is the purpose of a corporation.
I think that part of what's needling you is that corporations are being granted some of the rights that individuals enjoy, yet they exist only to make money are not subject to the same constraints that individuals are. You can't throw a corporation in jail for murdering someone. You can throw the CEO in jail if he screws up badly enough, but it's a little tougher when you remember that corporations were created for the sole purpose of distancing corporate decision makers from the consequences of their actions. Also, a distributed decision-making process and distributed accountability reduces each individual employee's share of the guilt to the kind of manageable level that allows for some really spectacularly bad shit to happen.
A lot of people who otherwise believe in laissez faire and the free-market are troubled by the zaibatsu-style mega corporations because they have grown large enough and influential enough to circumvent many of the normal free-market checks and balances.
The Dalai Llama
... I am not an economist, but watching increasingly smaller numbers of people control increasingly larger numbers of increasingly limited shared resources is making me increasingly worried...
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:4, Insightful)
What you deserve when you pirate for recognition. (Score:1, Insightful)
In a way, I'm glad this happened. Not in the way that the gov't is using these Naziesque propaganda techniques branding pirates nothing short of enemies of the state, but that these people get what they deserve not for committing crimes, but for fucking showboating it.
I'd feel the same way from an employee who stares at the camera over his register while he pockets 20 bucks for himself. Might as well hold up a flash card with his name, address and SSN too.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:1, Insightful)
For too many years we've seen the government guidos protecting half-assed hacks with big legal bank accounts when slimmer, faster, more efficient, and more elegant alternatives got squashed for infringing on intellectual property.
I've got my boots so I'll go ahead and say it: Living in a world which subsidizes 'tards with money while punishing intellectual excellence with threats of "insubordination" keeps me disdainful of the entire planet. I suppose the standard was set thousands of years ago by the bloodline theory of royalty. They may have two lazy eyes and an inferiority complex but they have money and authority to burn anyone that's better suited for life on this planet.
Re:MOVE OVER MAFIA! (Score:2, Insightful)
But I agree that the FBI is kinda waisting their time they should be after the people who are out to kill me.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:4, Insightful)
Uh, what makes you think it isn't?
Re:Class (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:MOVE OVER MAFIA! (Score:2, Insightful)
Sensationalism sells, so of course they'll go with it. FUD works.
--
Encryption isn't our holy grail (Score:2, Insightful)
Neither (insert your favorite waste-based crypt chat tool) nor ipsec/vpn are part of the problem, in fact you could find several crypto/networks systems experts within these groups.
FLT & Class were being known for hude cd resells networks established, that's how the FBI managed to find and incrimate few members, they didn't sn|fF th4 n3tw0rk or whatever honeypot you may think about.
That operation is simply following the 2001 ones, and don't forget the recent german busts. And again, yro isn't an appropriate section.
Re:The Heroic Ashcroft (Score:0, Insightful)
Anyway, that story isn't true, dumbass. The DOJ put up a backdrop behind Ashcroft at a press conference and it got turned into an entirely false story about Ashcroft ordering the statue covered.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:3, Insightful)
Y'know, like stopping terrorists and shit. Real terrorists, I mean. But then, who is the US to call anyone a terrorist. It's all relative *puts on rose tinted glasses*
Side tracking a bit more: the word "terrorist" has been used to describe pretty much any type of criminal activity since 9/11. ESPECIALLY computer related crime, because lord knows we're all out to blow shit up.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Your Rights Online?? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, there are people outside of the US with the right to crack commercial games. (no DMCA)
Depends on who's rights you're talking about (Score:1, Insightful)
I'm not arguing either way, just pointing out that YRO is fairly broad and can represent anyone's perspective. You've just assumed it was the perspective of the warez d00dz and not the authors of said warez.
Re:Now, that's comedy (Score:5, Insightful)
We don't have the right to distribute pirated works online, but do we seriously expect this right in the future? Is anyone SERIOUSLY arguing for the right to disseminate the creations of other people for free?
I know that you can reply with "sales aren't being lost" and "information wants to be free", but we will not have the "rights" being exercised by warez groups until some serious social upheaval occurs. The public may be behind such arguments with respect to music, but I doubt you're going to see your grandmother downloading AutoCAD 2004 and being surprised (or upset) that it is illegal to do so given the opportunity.
That's why I don't think it's even worth examining this issue under "Your Rights Online". Maybe put it in a Black hat/Internet Lawbreakers category, but don't pollute the actual fight for internet rights (privacy, universal access, social justice, etc)
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean, serving the citizens of their countries, who are trying to make money by selling software? You mean, enforcing the law?
How dare they! It would make much more sense for them to start working for the software pirates.
I believe that the parent thinks there are higher priority criminals to hunt than a few losers who pirate mediocre games. Victimless crimes and white collar crimes should never take precidence and resources from the prosecution of violent crimes.
It should be a matter of triage, first make society safe, then worry about maintaing private industry's profit margins against the gangs of computer toting outlaw teenagers.
However, the victims of muggings, spousal abuse, drug related violence and gangsta drive-by shootings do not make the hefty campaign contributions, nor do they have the ability to make press and TV conferences. They are just the average tax-payers - you know - the ones the Law Enforcement Officers swore to serve, protect, and defend.
Slashdotters, READ (Score:2, Insightful)
I know most of the Slashdotters know alot, and it is the Slashdot way to talk and talk convinced you know it all.
But you don't know this.
This is not some kids and their FTPs
This is a huge network of people, with different skills and access to different things. Stealing/Borrowing brand new games and movies from stores they work, cracking and ripping them with real skills then uploading them to 100mbit - 1gbit++ sites with 2tb+ hard drives.
These people are not the idiots you like to beleive they are. They are skilled in *nix, circumventing copy protection and a whole bunch of other stuff. They work jobs, and do this for fun.
And please, do not suggest 'WASTE' or 'p2p', where do you think the files on these networks come from? The people getting busted now are the ONLY ones supplying pirated materials to the internet, if it was not for them no-one would have these games,movies,etc.
You are not above them.
They are not children.
And no, i am not one of them. But i've have known these people.
Re:or from the developers perspective. (Score:5, Insightful)
>> Quick using swappers as a crutch for your own shortcomings.
That's just a really bad attitude, arrogant in fact. Not everyone can make million dollar games, yet everyone deserves fair slice of the cake for what they have created, even if it is small.
An independent developer may make just a small amount of money, but that may be just enough to try and produce the next game - which may well be a blockbuster. You seem to suggest that if you can't make the big league, then tough.
If the guy produced a lame product, or used lame marketing: then at least he knows that he failed because of what he did, not because someone avoided paying, but enjoyed the pleasure of playing
Re:MOVE OVER MAFIA! (Score:4, Insightful)
They ripped the living shit out of games. No movies, no soundtracks, no commentry, compressed sound, no online play... And Ashcroft is worry about them?
Funny really because they left the scene back in January. Maybe they saw what was coming.
http://www.nforce.nl/nfos/clear_txt.php?id=5412
I doubt they were teenagers either.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:5, Insightful)
Before you reply or moderate, ask yourself a few questions. Who benefits from busting Video Game pirates? If you think American citizens will, do you think they will benefit from cheaper game prices? Or maybe we'll get better games now that the pirates are all shut down? Or do you really think that as corporate profits go up, wages will, too, and that everyone benefits from helping the corporation? (in reality, the only people who benefit are the shareholders, who pay the lobbyists to wine & dine the legislators)
*Consider this: is there a way that Microsoft could be punished that would reduce computer prices and maybe even stimulate the computer industry, and the software industry as well? I think someone could probably come up with such a solution, and that it would be a far more effective use of gov't time & money than chasing warez kiddies.
Re:The Right Enforcement (Score:2, Insightful)
That would blow my mind.
You're a moron (Score:5, Insightful)
A.) Participate in piracy, so this pisses you off.
B.) Have a beef against Ashcroft, so it just ruffles your panties to see him cracking down on illegal software piracy.
There is absolutely, 100% nothing wrong with the government cracking down on this. Slashdot wants to pretend it's some sort of miniscule, "gray area" problem, but it's millions of users all trading warez and making it harder to sell software.
Why the hell do you think PC sales are so low, and so game companies are turning to consoles? Don't give me the "games were better in the olden days" spin, because we've got everything from Far Cry to Invisible War to SimCity 4 to Rollercoaster Tycoon 2 to...you get the picture.
"Copyright Enforcement Militia"...this is such propaganda bullshit that I can't believe--no wait, I CAN believe it got modded up. A post bitching about the emotive use of the word "syndicate" yet emotively using "militia." Nice!
Let's all pirate the fuck out of Doom 3, shall we? I'm sure John Carmack won't mind. Will he?
You call that an appropriate reaction? (Score:5, Insightful)
But the government action is against those that are producing the cracked software and providing the music for download. These aren't your typical kids playing at sharing music. These are people who know exactly what they are doing, and, while they have a myriad of reasons for doing so (some even mildly admirable), they ARE breaking the law.
So I'm reading this, well, garbage that people are posting about honor among pirates. Well, whatever. I'm sure that's true for some segment of that population. But who gives a damn? Who are these people really benefiting? Is this REALLY a valid way to protest the pricing structures and horrible crap that these companies are producing? And even if it is, these people, again, are aware the the consequences of this type of protest, and I feel no need to get worked up about it.
I guess my point is - I'm GLAD that my government actually attempts to enforce the law. I wish they did a better job, which includes knowing how and when to enforce the law. At least this time they got it right, for once. 'Course, that's assuming that the press release is even reasonably accurate.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:5, Insightful)
Break the law because it's wrong, suffer the punishment because it's right, and work to change the system.
It's acceptable to challenge any law you want, but it also means as a responsible individual you also pay the consequences of that law. If everyone breaks the same law, willingly, because the law is wrong, that brings the attention of the lawmakers that the law is wrong, because everyone would be their constituents and voters.
Re:Your Rights Online?? (Score:5, Insightful)
in fact it's the first thing I download after buying it. so I know that in 4 years I can still use that which i OWN. Games or apps that need Key's and/or authorize to a master server are crappy to the user. and the first thing I do is remove that crud so I am ensured that my legal purchase cant be stolen from me by the corrupt developers or companies that think that I no longer have the right to use an app that I bought 5 years ago...
Yes I'm one of those evil people that buy something that works and stay's there. Lightwave 5.5 instead of being a lemming and buying the upgrade every year (Yes I'm evil and making programmer's babies starve!) and Yes I have my dongle and origional manuals. I also have all the keygens and cracks for it... which were NEEDED to make it work under windows 2000 and XP.
so you know what, screw off. there are LOTS of legit uses for cracks and keygens. and I reccomwend and point EVERYONE I know to the sites to get their keygens and cracks for their legal software
if you are a developer and add that crap to your app, then you suck and I really hope I piss you off to no end.
Sloppy usage of the term "Citizen" (Score:2, Insightful)
It's time to end the perverted concept of Corporate rights. They are allowed to incorporate to serve the public, for a specific purpose. If they fail in that obligation, they should die.
Corporations should NEVER have the right to "free speech". Never, EVER. That right is reserved for Citizens.
--Mike--
This message does not necessarily reflect the views of ACME, Inc.
ACME - American Corporation that Manufactures Everything
Re:Class (Score:3, Insightful)
One must also consider the purpose of the law. In the case of your speeding ticket example, it is to improve traffic safety. However I'm sure that most can share an experience of the radar trap at the bottom of a long hill or in some other place that is designed to maximize ticket revenue instead of improving traffic safety. Even enforcement of the law is just as critical as the fairness of the law.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:4, Insightful)
Great. When is the next vote for changing copyright law? Oh wait, a law like that would have to be proposed by congress and voted on by them. But the RIAA, music industry, etc. control congress. Then we need to start a grass roots movement to change copyright law. First we have to figure out what we want, then we have to gather the grass roots support (i.e., normal citizens).
Well, to figure out what we want, we should discuss it in some online forum. And to get grass roots support we could start with discussing it in some online forum. Hmmm... I guess that means we should post/discuss/proselytize on Slashdot.
OK, so what are doing wrong here?
Re:Capitalism is the root. (Score:2, Insightful)
There are less than 1 billion living in a fully industrialized country!
Until capitalism finds a way to get all the surplus food turning americans into bloated pigs over to the starving people in the 3rd world and provide low cost AIDS medicine (the cost only comes from intellectual property, nothing physical..and most of the research was done on government grant so don't give me the "recoup research costs" crap either...) Then I will consider capitalism giving the most people opportunity.
As it stands right now capitalism just gives 5 billion people the chance to blow their whole life tioling and barely surviving while making low costs goods and produce for the rich 1 billion.
Election Year Hijinks... (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, expect to see a lot more of this kind of silliness. It's an election year, and groups like the RIAA want their money's worth from the sitting president before they dump a bunch more money into his reelection coffers.
It's not all that surprising they're painting the warz sites and music swapping sites as run by syndicates in press releases. What are they going to say? "Um, uh ... We stopped people trading game software we don't want out kids using, and songs we don't want them listening to, so can you please forget about all that other stuff we said we were going to do but can't seem to get a handle on? Please?"
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's unfair I think. To say that the police should only focus on serious crime until serious crime disappears doesn't really seem logical. You get a diminishing returns. For example, put two detectives on a murder case and you'll do better than if you put one. Put 7,000,000 detectives on a murder case, and it probably won't be solved more quickly, at least enough so as to justify the cost and effort.
For every police (encompassing here state, municipal, and federal) agent chasing after copyright violators there are tens of thousands going after murderers, muggers, and drug dealers.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:1, Insightful)
...or that lady that dumped her car in the river with her kids still in it.
There are more people like that out there, and they aren't exactly the ones downloading Halo off of the Internet.
You're one yourself (Score:3, Insightful)
Look - even after 9/11 the FBI ran an investigation into prositution in New Orleans. Guess what! They found some!
You: Get the FBI defending your interests re: computer crime if
1) you are a big campaign contributer
there is no 2)
The alleged $50,000 provable damage rule is only the point where they have the authority to decide to investigate. Mostly they decide not to. Chasing warez d00dz for copywrite violation is a staggering misallocation of resources that may get people killed.
On the other hand, stringing up a packeting kidiot by his thumbs might actually make the net an easier place to for the rest of us to do our thing .
Re:Now, that's comedy (Score:2, Insightful)
Anyone who downloads a pirated edition of AutoCAD probably has no clue how to use it. It's a status symbol for the warez site, eats up bandwidth, and the original author isn't losing anything on it.
People are so touchy these days. Would you be bothered to the point of legal action if a script kiddie came to you on the street and said,"I slept with your Mom last night?"
Brush it off. You have more important things to worry about.
Re:Now, that's comedy (Score:2, Insightful)
See: Universal Declaration of Human Rights [unhchr.ch]
Article 19
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
I repeat: SEEK, RECEIVE, and impart
INFORMATION and Ideas
through ANY MEDIA
Its Your Right, my right, and everyones right for sure. As it also says any media, Online is covered. So as you can see, the YRO tag is well deserved
Z
A19
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:4, Insightful)
There are thousands of people who lost a significant portion of their life savings to these swindles. As a guess they were the, "...just the average tax-payers - you know - the ones the Law Enforcement Officers swore to serve, protect, and defend" but since none of the perps used a gun it doesn't matter.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh it is, don't worry guys. Most of the greatest warez groups aren't publicly known, when in fact they have "fronts" that get fed all the software with expendable people. So in terms i could be considered a mafia of sorts. Thoes let inside are asked to join.
Think about it. How else could some of this shiz get out so fast, then dozens of 'groups' and sites are taken down the following month? the software is out now, and those expendable (ie: stuck in mommy's basement) are gone. Job done.
Suggestion from Warez Groups (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean it obviously doesn't absolve them from wrongdoing, but it's a nice gesture considering that they're obviously not required to put it there.
Re:Capitalism is the root. (Score:3, Insightful)
Piracy is wrong. (Score:2, Insightful)
Just because you want something, doesn't mean you have the right to steal it.
Re:The Right Enforcement (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see any posts from anyone who is especially upset by the loss of the few w4r3Z studios, or from anyone who thinks that crackers redistributing copyrighted works is morally right (Although I think that I could make a good case for various rzr1911 no-cd cracks being protected by "fair-use" precedent because they allow me to play games on my laptop that I have purchased legally without having to lug my damn cd-rom drive on the plane... if you're reading this, thanks guys
No, what I see is that people are sad that John Ashcroft and his merry band of keystone cops are wasting our tax money by chasing these small-time geeks, instead of investigating how Karl Rove is committing treason, or how Scalia and Cheney are whispering sweet executive priveleges in each other's ears, or why businesses that George W. Bush works for have a nasty habit of going bankrupt, or whether Ken Lay was complicit in bankrupting Enron and precisely what ties he had to the Bush family, or how MCI managed to defraud MILLIONS OF CUSTOMERS and simulataneously compromise US goverment communications security, or how Diebold has committed election fraud and intends to do so again in November, or whether Halliburton intentionally conspired to defraud the government by overcharging on sweetheart Iraq contracts, or whether John Negroponte is fit to represent the United States by holding public office after being complicit in the murders of children and women (some of the women were NUNS, for christsake) in Nicaragua and Honduras.
No, we don't hear announcements about those investigations... BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT HAPPENING. They're not happening because John is allowing his enforcement agenda to be set by political interests, and the political interests in power are the ones who are responsible for your steps 1 and 2 as well as 3. These are all facets of the same gem; symptoms of the same disease: Moneyed corporations can buy selective enforcement of laws that promote their ideology or business interest.
Wake up, Johnny-boy. What's more damaging to the long-term security of the nation, (a)people who steal WarcraftIII or (b)people who steal presidential elections? You're supposed to enforce the laws of this great country. Quit picking the low-hanging fruits of echelon that the Israelis hand to you and go after something a little more challenging. While you're wondering WWJD and trying to make your corporate sponsors happy, Elliot Spitzer is making you look like fucking Mary Poppins.
Re:Song of the piracy apologist Repost (Score:0, Insightful)
If you agree with any of this, feel free to repost it in the future.
Song of the piracy apologist:
(1) I don't personally believe in copying CDs illegally-- but I think we should avoid using unkind words like "piracy" to describe those that do -- instead, we should describe it as an "infringement", much like a parking infringement.
(2) I don't believe in the record companies emotively abusing the word "theft," but I do believe in emotively abusing words like "information," "sharing," and "Copyright Enforcement Militia."
(3) I believe that piracy is driven by "overpriced CDs" even though CDs have dropped in price over the years.
(4) I believe that piracy is driven by overly long copyright duration, even though most pirated works are recent releases.
(5) I believe that illegitimately downloading music is giving the author "free advertising". I don't buy any of the music I download, of course--but lots of other people probably do.
(6) I believe that ripping off the artists is wrong. The record companies always rip off the artists. Artists support P2P, except the ones that don't (like Metallica), and they don't agree with me, hence they're greedy or their opinion doesn't count or something.
(7) I believe that selling CDs is not a business model, but giving away things for free on the internet is.
(8) I believe that artists should be compensated for their work -- preferably by someone else. I mean, they can sell concert tickets (which someone else can buy) or sell t-shirts (to someone else) or something. As long as someone else subsidises my free ride, I'm coooooool with it.
(9) I believe in capitalism but only support music business models which involve giving away the fruits of ones labor for free.
(10) I believe that copying someone elses music, and redistributing it to my 1,000,000 "best friends" on the internet is sharing. Music is made for sharing. It's my right.
(11) I believe that record companies cracking down on piracy is "greed", but a mob demanding free entertainment is not.
(12) I believe that it's not really "piracy" unless you charge money for it, because, receiving money is wrong, but taking a free ride is fine.
(13) I believe that disallowing copying and redistributing music over Napster is the same as humming my favourite song in public. Because when I hum my favourite song in public, everyone likes it so much that they run home, get out their tape
recorders and once they've got a recording of it, they aren't interested in hearing the original any more.
(14) I believe that when illegal behaviour destroys a business, it's "free enterprise at work".
What I find amusing is that the pirates seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between creative activity and brainless copying.
Since a lot of the people here are GPL/OSS advocates: the "OSS way" applied to this domain is to learn how to play an instrument. Or how to sing or whatever. Then get together with a bunch of other people who can also play music, and make some noise.
One of the unfortunate things that has happened to the OSS movement is that a lot of the loudmouth advocates for it don't understand what it's really about. They view it primarily as a means to get free stuff, and then they turn their eyes from the free stuff to the non-free stuff and think to themselves "maybe I'm entitled to get that one for free too". The noble ideals of grass roots participation in the creative process, and/or supporting it in a principled way (namely, boosting the "free foo" movement by preferring free foo to nonfree foo), or for that matter, any other form of moderately principled codes of ethics, are completely lost on them. I think it's a shame that these leeches use OSS, but there's not a whole lot that can or should be done about that. But I'd be much happier if at the very least, they wouldn't confuse the OSS movement (free as in freedom) with the Napster driven movement (free as in "loader").
Misconception of a business plan (Score:3, Insightful)
1) bust all warez-d00ds
2) people will suddenly run-in shop doors to pay for things they previously only warez'd
3) profit !!
?
Who can be that naive ?
If people can't get their hands on SQL-server anymore, they'll use something else - maybe even Postgresql or Mysql.
And anybody can download Oracle for free.
I think, everybody should pay for his software (or her software), in accordance with the license-agreement.
If you cannot pay, look for something else.
If you don't like the EULA (media-player), look for something else.
If you think, the software is "not worth" the money it costs (like MS-Office), then don't buy it, buy something that offers better value, like perhaps Staroffice7.
Rainer
I agree with the post... (Score:1, Insightful)
By the way, it is illeagal and if you participate it is just a matter of time before you are busted. I think this is akin to people who buy radar detectors so they can speed. What I do not like is them spending tax dollars on this, the corporations should be paying for the whole thing. It also bothers me that corps can buy public law enforcment, that just seems wrong to me. I just feel that private corps should not be given law enforcement powers without the peoples consent. Though it will not change things, everytime they come up with a better mousetrap the kiddies will become craftier mice, this is the way of the world, this is the game of warez.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sigh--this is a FLAWED ARGUMENT (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you honestly believe that's how it works? Every single time some ignorant moron says something like this, I shake my head. "They should be devoting their resources to [INSERT RANDOM HIGHER PRIORITY THING HERE]." Uh, who said they don't? Because one small faction of their organization also happened to be doing something else? When Slashdot changes the way your comments are listed, does that mean 100% of the Slashdot crew was devoted to working on it? When a virtual memory scheme is worked on for the Linux kernel, does that mean 100% of all kernel development was devoted to that?
Give me a break. It's a faulty argument and you know it. This was probably the computer division composed of agents who specialize in computer crimes. God, you people amaze me sometimes.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:5, Insightful)
So when will "evil" countries realise... (Score:3, Insightful)
...that then can earn by welcoming piracy into their countries: do you seriously think that the new government of (say) Afghanistan gives one flying fuck about the profits of American companies?
The same might go for recently "deceased" projects like PlayFair.
Are there any decent hosting services available in Afghanistan, Iran, Russia, (insert any other country without decent copyright laws)?
Anyone have information?
Re:MOVE OVER MAFIA! (Score:2, Insightful)
Those CDs are produced in back-alley factories, by people who hire in the tech savvy they need to run their duplicators, and who wouldn't dream of showing themselves publically by sharing the stuff on the Internet.
They are then pushed out via market traders, the ubiquitous 'bloke in the pub', etc.
It's all part of the same scene as organised music piracy, copied brand-name goods, fake perfume and the like, and involves mostly the same people.
If stopping the warez sites serves to reduce the income of these people, then all well and good - but expect to see more fake Fila tops and copied music taking up the slack.
And yes - I do know of what I speak - I know some of the people who do a lot of the above for a living, and have some very nice brand-name copies and an extensive VCD collection as a result.
Do not underestimate the FBI (Score:4, Insightful)
And there is nothing that can be done to stop them. This being slashdot, a lot of talk about secure networks and encryption is going on. All of these measures are next to useless.
The Warez Scene is not an insulated and self contained entity. It is
It is *TRIVIAL* for the fbi to impersonate one or more of those again and again or even have deep undercovers that remain in the scene for years (spanning several busts).
The only new thing about this bust is the extensive cooperation of other governments in this operation. I have to admit that I did not imagine the FBI would bother but apparently, the pressure of BIG CORP International is now enough to warrant a cooperation and coordinated operations between countries that is usually reserved to drug and weapon traffickers.
Sad...
Um, your 'completely wrong' is not right (Score:2, Insightful)
Those risks include negligent action on the part of the corporation. Negligent action that often occurs soley because of the pressure to provide a greater return on investment.
Therefore, the investors ARE shielded from wrongdoing by the corporate mechanism that was ultimately acting to fulfill their demands.
Re:Song of the piracy apologist Repost (Score:5, Insightful)
Theft requires the loss of a physical object (implies a degree of uniqueness and singularity for that object) from its owner, and piracy is essentially armed robbery on the high seas. Both involve physically depriving someone of physical things. Software (and music) is not physical. The media they are on is physical.
Next thing you know, Microsoft will start calling the adoption and existance of open source software "theft" (i.e., installing OpenOffice), because it deprives them otherwise of a sale of Microsoft Office, they'll start trying to harrass and make difficult those who use open-source versions of software products that they make (OpenOffice, Dia, Linux) in many ways (such as only allowing "licensees" to develop converters for their file formats, and any OSS app that can read a Word document must be violating IP restrictions SOMEwhere).
I feel sorry for the artists, but they've been taken for a ride by the radio-music industry for a long time. They just sound like prostitutes defending their pimps most of the time anymore to me.
The only thing being lost immediately is a potential sale (yet, oddly enough, there is not a complete relationship between the copying and loss of sale. There are probably more than a few Delphi developers, for example, who cannot shell out $3000 for Delphi8 Architect, yet they can get the evaluation CD from Borland and find a keygen for it. It may be just enough for them to use it to develop a project or two that they can sell, and then buy the full version. It is hard to learn and develop a program in something like Delphi in only 30 days...)
The funny thing is, that at least in Microsoft's case, they turned a blind eye to it for so long in order to grow their marketshare and develop MS Office addiction that only now are they trying to clamp down on essentially casual copying, because they cannot go after those who do it on an industrial scale (Ukraine, Russia, SE Asia, etc).
Oh well.
Re:Sigh--this is a FLAWED ARGUMENT (Score:1, Insightful)
Why should ANY of my tax dollars be defending someone else's "potential profits"? When some moron suggests that the poor programmer will be on welfare unless jackbooted thugs bust warez sites I just shake my head! Windows is the most pirated IP in the history of the world, and yet Not One employee of Microsoft is on the breadline.
Give me a break, Today it is the dreaded Warez kiddies tomorrow it is the Open Source Syndicate who is conspiring to take the bread from BillG's poor little kid, and pauperize Monkeyboy Ballmer!
Don't think that you are not next on the corporate cop's agenda! Who will be there to stand up for you?
Stupid priorities (Score:2, Insightful)
With AlQueda [google.com], the War in Iraq [google.com], drugs, what a stupid waste of law enforcement effort going after stupid crap like this and that [cybercrime.gov].
The only reason this is getting any attention at all is places like the RIAA, MPAA, DirecTV, and other big businesses tossing mountains of money in the appropriate Senator and Representative's direction.
Re:You're a moron (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Song of the piracy apologist (Score:0, Insightful)
I don't feel like morally justfying everything I do because I'm not a wanker.
Oh, yeah? (Score:4, Insightful)
You think you're still going to be selling 5M+ then?
Everybody around here purposely ignores the inevitable conclusion of a file-sharing network designed to trade massive files, but with no enforcement of what is traded--nobody making money on anything that can be copied.
I'm a musician. Sorry, but I don't want my stuff going around in a damn
This attitude of "piracy is okay" sickens me. Just because you claim to have sold a lot of games still doesn't give piraters the right to pretend the copyright of a product magically transferred over to them.
But, it's not surprising that mentality pervades this place considering that recent Slashdot poll showing that the majority of Slashdotters are either college students or unemployed......
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:3, Insightful)
CD's ain't cheaper. Where do you get your facts? (Score:5, Insightful)
(3) I believe that piracy is driven by "overpriced CDs" even though CDs have dropped in price over the years.
They have? That's news to me. When I got my first CD player in 1985, the average price of a new CD in a record store was $12. In 2004, the average price of a new CD in a record store is $18. Now, granted there are bargain-basement $5.99 CDs these days, as well as sale-priced new releases at the $12 or $13 price point, but as a whole, CDs aren't cheaper today than they were nearly 20 years ago.
Does that excuse "piracy," or "theft" or whatever you want to call it? No, it doesn't, but let's ratchet down the level of nonsense in the rhetoric used here. "Stealing" isn't the right word for making an unauthorized copy of something. The original still exists and can be sold to someone, and "piracy" is a loaded word with completely inappropriate connotations. How about we just call it "unauthorized copying" or "copyright dilution"?
I've always had a problem with software and entertainment industry estimates of losses due to unauthorized copying. First, they assume that every copy illegally-made represents a lost sale, which is nonsense. If a 15-year-old kid has 8,000 songs on his hard drive, there's no chance in hell that he would have bought those 8,000 songs if he hadn't had access to them for free. He might have spent anywhere from a few hundred to a couple of thousand bucks on music, but there's no chance he'd have bought 600 CDs worth of music at $15-$18 a crack ($9,000-$11,000).
And here's another thing: Twenty years ago, my friends and I taped songs off of FM radio and played them in our walkmans. Or we'd dupe our LPs onto tape and trade copies with each other. I easily had access to ten times as much music as I could afford to buy, but in spite of record industry whining, I bought *more* music because of that practice, not less.
One study stated that that kids and adults alike who used the original Napster were more likely to buy music than people who didn't. Numerous studies have shown that there's zero correlation between "piracy" and the decline of sales for the music industry. Is it any surprise to people that the last year of sales increases for the music industry was the last year that the original Napster was in operation?
This is not an apologia for listening to music without paying for any of it. It's simply a realistic look at what's really going on. The record industry has its head up its ass and always has. Suing and prosecuting your customers is bad for business [thescogroup.com].
Software "piracy" is different, but not *that* different. Much of the software industry used to accept that "piracy" was just another form of marketing. Microsoft has always given lip service to stamping out "piracy," but until they had established a monopoly, they did virtually nothing to prevent it before the fact because they knew it was easier to convert a "pirate" into a paying customer than it was to get a skeptic to buy from you in the first place. Most people these days will automatically use MS products, so now Microsoft puts copy-protection technology in its products to force people to pay up-front.
Is making an unauthorized copy of music or software theft? According to the law, it is. However, there needs to be a middle ground between the "information wants to be free" left and the Ashcroft search-and-seizure [azcentral.com] right.
Most people would gladly reward artists and programmers for their work. That's how shareware works, and it made Phil Katz [pkware.com] a substantial amount of money before his death. So how about we find new ways to reward creators of content, instead of finding new ways to criminalize what people have done for decades?
Don't misunderstand me. There are true criminals out there who are selling counterfeit or other illegally-copied versions of products (such as music and sof
M$ still the biggest software company (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Song of the piracy apologist Repost (Score:5, Insightful)
3.) Most CD's are quite overpriced and the public now realizes this. Allow me to plug Mangatune.com Reasonable price, actually supports the musicians. (:
4.) Copyright duration is way to long and it is having a dramatic effect upon society
5.) Legitimately free music/whatever as advertising is nevertheless a valid business model to gain popularity.
6.) Artists are, in fact, getting ripped off due to the perceived need to cut a record deal to "get known." They would be much better off thinking like entrepeneurs.
7.) "Giving stuff away on the Internet" is not a business model, but it can be part of one if done correctly. Look at Homestar Runner as example: free cartoons that got so popular that the authors now make a living selling plush dolls, t-shirts, and bumper stickers. It would never have succeeded as a pay-for-content site because it has to compete with Cartoon Network, the Simpsons, and the like..
8.) Not everyone is looking for a free ride. The fact that people are more than willing to pay for concert tickets but many now hesistate to buy CDs says more about the market than morals. People are simply putting far less value in recorded music.
9.) In a purely capitalist, laisez faire economic system, there is no such thing as copyright. It's not an assumption or requirement. That's not to say that it's always bad, but rather that there are plenty of natural ways to make money that do not involve artificial government institutions. Open Source has already succeeded in this field; independent music/film is still on its way.
10.) For the majority of human history, it was a right. Copyright is a modern experiment. It may or may not last long term. My guess is that a fairer balance will be struck.
11.) What signifies greed is the motivation, not that they are exercising their legal rights. Numerous studies have shown that P2P and other bootlegging has a minimal effect on profits, while significantly expanding the spread of content. It is more likely that the 'cracking down' is more out of fear that they are losing control of the traditional distribution channels.
One of the unfortunate things that has happened to the OSS movement is that a lot of the loudmouth advocates for it don't understand what it's really about.
Absolutely. In my definition, Open Source is about meeting software needs in the most efficient way possible. That does not always mean a free ride. Open Source is about turning an artificial "manufacturing" market into a labor market, the latter of which allows full, unrestricted motion of the "invisible hand of the market." Capitalism works best with many buyers, many sellers, and minimal cost of entry. That is what Open Source enables.
They view it primarily as a means to get free stuff, and then they turn their eyes from the free stuff to the non-free stuff and think to themselves "maybe I'm entitled to get that one for free too"
While I agree that many mistakenly see OSS as "free lunch," I don't see your secondary point in any true OSS advocates.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:4, Insightful)
Imagine, if everyone in the US stopped to smoke a few doobies, how much less stress there would be in society? Stress is the #1 contributing factor to the breakdown of a biological system resulting in disease. Certainly there's no direct link which can be correlated from everyday life to the number of prescription drugs you buy but you can bet that the statistical analysts in the major marketing departments are all WELL aware of this economic correlation.
Re:Dude, ever heard of inflation. (Score:3, Insightful)
When I got my first CD player in 1985, the average price of a new CD in a record store was $12. In 2004, the average price of a new CD in a record store is $18. Now, granted there are bargain-basement $5.99 CDs these days, as well as sale-priced new releases at the $12 or $13 price point, but as a whole, CDs aren't cheaper today than they were nearly 20 years ago.
From 1985 to 2004 we've seen the consumer price index rise about 70%. That would make your $12 1985 CD cost about $20.40 today. So even if the average price was $18 as you say, they are cheaper than they were in 1985. In reality, NPD MusicWatch says the average price of CDs in 2003 was $13.42, down 2% from 2002.
what does this have to do with my rights? (Score:3, Insightful)
All that actually appears to have happened is that a bunch of people got busted for doing something illegal, and they happened to be doing it with computers. That does not make it relevant to my online rights, unless someone thinks we are supposed to have the right to do things online that are illegal offline.
With regards to Slashdot... (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, the only thing that would make warez sites and online piracy organizations morally objectionable and properly subject to sanction would be if they distributed, sold or bartered binaries for derivative works of GPLed software in violation of the GPL.
Re:Song of the piracy apologist Repost (Score:5, Insightful)
Ripping apart all the freebie-seekers from the podium of OSS self-righteousness still doesn't validate the blatant lopsidedness and anti-competitive behavior of the reigning software giants.
I agree, there are lots of lazy snobs out there that feel that everything should be given to them on a silver platter without requiring any effort on their part. However, it is still a moral fact that the current laws and regulations favor people who already have enormous bank accounts, squash any newcomers with better ideas (or force them to be absorbed), and continue to feed wealth to companies who pattern themselves using the bully tactics of _real_ syndicates like Microsoft.
There is no way that you can possibly argue that the current laws foster progressive competition, positive diversification or a "share the wealth" attitude. It's all a pyramid scheme.
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:2, Insightful)
Slavery?
Womens rights?
taxation without representation...
Oh how we forget.
The king has the right to screw any of the pretty pesent women he wants, including your newly wed wife... because he is the king by law.
LAW does not mean RIGHT. Its just a governing rule that we've chosen... it doesnt make it right in the sense of human rights. It just makes it law.
Mankind creates laws, and sometimes we need to re-evaluate them
You're right we need to fix this world some how. But i dont think voting does much these days... though i still vote. I'm a dreamer.
It's called a subsidy, assholes! (Score:2, Insightful)
Meanwhile, the fact that our and many other governments are using up taxpaper money to fight for the interests of the RIAA and a few other industries is seen by me as a waste of resources.
If you had this "infringement" problem, the FBI would just laugh and laugh at you - you'd have to investigate it yourself and sue for infringment - just like any other penniless schmuck. Lucky for them, the likes of the RIAA can just buy these subsidies via the legislature. For very little money the RIAA gets access to extravagant pork - the money you worked hard to pay in taxes.
Someone wondered why the topic is categorized under "Your Rights Online." It's categorized that way because it's your money, dingbats, that supports this nonsense. It's your money that subsidizes the law enforcement overkill over concerns peculiar to but a very few industries.
You know, murders do actually go unsolved while the cops dick around with bullshit like making the RIAA happy. I'd rather have more real law and order and leave the RIAA to its own legal remedies.
Re:How is this YRO? (Score:2, Insightful)
"Copyright" is about the "rights to copy". The right to copy other people's work is a "right", albeit one we don't have. I am not giving an opinion on whether or not we should have that right. I'm simply saying that it's talking about rights, so it belongs in YRO. Even if it's talking about rights we should not have, it's still talking about rights, and it still belongs in YRO.
Re:Annual Busts and Media Spectacular (Score:3, Insightful)
Really, though, a lot of warez groups had gotten much less shadowy and more open, with websites and whatnot, and were kind of pushing the limits.
You don't need a group with twenty members and a high profile to crack software, though. People can work pretty effectively buried a bit more underground.
This is ridiculous... (Score:2, Insightful)
I could go on and on about why PC sales are low, and I'll tell you what.. Piracy is the least of those problems. Let me just sum it up in a few quick points.
1) Many more consoles out there than there are computers THAT PEOPLE PLAY GAMES ON. Hence, a FAR bigger market. Again, this is a no-brainer.
2) Hardware compatibility problems are nill when it comes to developing a game for a console. You got *ONE* system to program the game on. I dont need to elaborate on this. Further, the worst support calls a company will get is 'My CD is scratched.'.
3) You can pirate the SHIT out of Xbox games. Put a mod-chip in, replace the HD with a fat 120G one, and start downloading your games, pal. You can even download save games (for the truly lazy amongst us). And after all this, guess what? They are still whipping the ass of the PC games vendor.
[ed. And by the way, I am a PC gamer.. I prefer the PC over the console anyway, but I'm also not an idiot, and very well aware of the market penetration that consoles have.]
There is absolutely, 100% nothing wrong with the government cracking down on this.
Thats right.. lets spend millions in dollars and hundreds of FBI man-hours to arrest some 15 year olds pirating Halo. Sounds like money well spent to me. And before you go off and say (like another poster did), "I hope a cop laughs at you for getting mugged, since its not as bad as being murdererd or rape." That is so retarted. You are comparing bodidly freaking harm to pirating a video game.
Finally, I must say that the financial loss to pirating can be completely argued. Its been said a hundred times by people who have pirated software that they wouldnt have spent the money on it ANYWAY.
But see, to find the *actual* financial loss would take research, and why would companies even bother with the actual figure even if they had it? Its in their best interest to throw up a big BILLION DOLLAR figure to get people like you to freak out, and the government to go into action with "our" money.
++Om
Will the corperate piracy of America ever end? (Score:3, Insightful)
If these multi national, multi million dollar corperations arent expected to pay up... why should those individuals making pennies be locked up for essentially doing the same thing?
They avoid paying taxes, yet use our tax dollars to lock up those who do not pay for their overpriced software.
If everyone at the table cared about the quality of life... the right things would be done.
Just look how insane all of this has become. The sentences for downloading mp3's are insane! How about software? movies? etc. We're talking about 0k-40k a year individuals here. People who simply can not afford the prices.
software/etc piracy "syndicates" that actually profit off warez/movies/watever were generally over seas. But now here in America... That same extreme level of wide acceptence of piracy has become the norm. The only cause i can see is that AMERICA has finally become apart of the 3rd world community in that our working class can not afford the products being sold.
Boston tea party folks... This stuff is NOTHING NEW to civilization. The RESULT is piracy, the problem comes from the top, not the bottom.
At the local shopping mall over here.. for a good 10 or more years they have been selling BOOTLEG Imported HK/ASIAN cinema on DVD and VHS. They sell out of a LEGIT rented booth at a MAJOR MALL.
At first the films had cheap ass vhs cases with photocopied covers. Now they have progressed to legitimate looking dvd's shrinkwrapped etc. They still look "off" but they're getting convincing.
These guys have operated for years and no one cares. I mean right in a MALL!!! They rent their store space!!! They're in a mall were sam goodie, radioshack,jc penny, sears, EB, kaybee, mcdonalds etc all are... BUT NO ONE seems to care about the copyright holders of those asian films.... that or no one has ratted these guys out yet.
America is starting to look like the china shops in china town, or the stores in china the country.
Why?
I can only assume that people are finding it harder and harder to make a living that maintains the standard of yesterday. We're quickly becoming a like the rest of the world that CANT AFFORD OUR AMERICAN PRODUCTS
Bush and Slashdot dislike (Score:3, Insightful)
There are a lot of people that worry that the country is going to the dogs, that immorality is running rampant, and that some good old-style religious family values will keep things together.
Once the Baby Boomers start dying off from old age, I'm guessing and hoping that things will be different.
Re:CD's ain't cheaper. Where do you get your facts (Score:5, Insightful)
I also got my first CD player in 1985, and I remember CDs being $18 or so, but I probably lived in a more expensive part of town than you, figuratively speaking. Let's use your $12 number to save time. $12 in 1985 dollars is about $20 in 2004 dollars; if prices hadn't gone down, we'd be paying $20 per CD today.
I understand the concept of inflation. But please remember the CD player that I got in 1985 sold for $260. It held one CD at a time, wasn't portable, didn't have a remote control and didn't have anti-skip shock protection. Today, CD players with those specs cost $20. Why? Improvements in manufacturing, reduction in the cost to produce CD players and the biggest reason: economies of scale.
For some of the same reasons, the CDs themselves also cost less to produce today than they did in 1985. The difference between 1985 and 2004 retail pricing of CDs is other record industry costs. In 1985, Michael Jackson, Mariah Carey, et. al. weren't getting huge guaranteed contracts for albums that don't sell. Record companies today are paying Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera big bucks up front for records that are supposed to earn enough money to pay for all the marketing costs that get poured into marginal acts like Creed.
The problem is that record companies only know how to sell you what you bought last time, so innovation has been completely eliminated. They force-fed us more clones of Britney Spears until people stopped buying those CDs. In their rush to find the next Avril Lavigne, they completely missed out on the concept of finding quality artists recording quality music, so Norah Jones sneaked her way to selling 18 million CDs with virtually no promotion by her record company.
CDs cost more today because record companies changed their business models. Instead of finding and developing lots of inexpensive new artists and allowing the market to decide what's a hit, record companies today insist on pushing the same crap they sold us last year until we stop buying it, and they spend a fortune in promotions to try to reverse the inevitable declines. When we stop buying stuff we're tired of, the industry blames "piracy" for their decline in sales. But the real reason we stopped buying music is because they stopped publishing music we wanted to buy. How else do you explain the success of Norah Jones and the soundtrack for O Brother Where Art Thou?
Re:CD's ain't cheaper. Where do you get your facts (Score:5, Insightful)
You make some excellent points and you are absolutely correct that CD players and CDs are marketed in radically different fashions. Specifically, CD players are now commodities. The marketing spend for CDs is perhaps at its highest point ever.
Naturally the record companies say that piracy is 100% to blame for the decline in sales over the past few years. Slashdotters will quickly point out that it's everything but piracy; they also have some good points but I think many of us are "ignoring the elephant" a little too much. Both extreme viewpoints are self-serving; it allows the record companies to proceed with suing pirates with little remorse, and it allows Slashdotters to "share" all the music they can get their hands on without losing any sleep.
In the middle are the various research and analyst firms who specialize in analyzing markets. Several firms which I trust state that piracy is absolutely, definitely, part of the problem, but not the entire problem. The economy and competition from other sources of entertainment (such as the rise of the DVD market) are often cited by analysts as other principle factors.
Re:or from the developers perspective. (Score:4, Insightful)
A Geo Metro is not worth my hard earned money, thus I choose not to buy it and go without.
A fully featured cell phone is not worth my hard earned money, so I choose not to buy it and go without.
Lots of software in the world is not worth my hard earned money, so I choose not to buy it and go without.
Have you forgotten how capitalist economies work? Voting with ones dollars? I buy and use only those products and services which I choose to spend my money on, and of those things I don't... I go without. No piracy involved.
Class was a solid group. This is a sad day. (Score:4, Insightful)
This is a sad day, marking a grim landmark on the recent hell-bent March Towards Fascism, where Tax Dodging Media Corporations are protected by the police we keep employed, and only rich people are allowed to use software and communication tools. Everyone else should be sent to work houses and punished for being poor.
So a tip of the hat to you guys; You will be both missed and remembered fondly. The days of the digital Pirate are slipping away. .
"If You Like This Program, We Encourage You To GO OUT AND BUY IT!
Hm.
-FL
Re:Sigh--this is a FLAWED ARGUMENT (Score:2, Insightful)
When funding for crap like this takes precedence over my local law enforcement's funding, then there's a problem! I know of a woman who went to the cops because they were fearful for her life because some lunatic was stalking her. What's the response she got? "Oh, we don't really have the manpower to investigate that right now, you'll have to get a restraining order, or something, just don't bother us, we're overworked as it is."
If the money used for these coporate-pleasing operations was put to better use, we'd all be better off. But the sad fact of life is that it's profitable to go after these types of cases. You get to fine the individuals, take their shit, AND delight the folks who grease the government palms with big, fat contributions. But what about the lunatic stalking the woman? That's not profitable. It takes money to track him down, prosecute him, and if he's convicted, it costs the taxpayers even more to keep him in prison. Not much incentive if you're on a tight budget, is there?
Why do you think there's a shitload of enforcement for relatively petty crimes like speeding and overtime parking? Because they're moneymakers.
This is not a faulty argument and people who can look at more than one tiny facet of the issue can see that.
To quote you, "Next."
Re:Song of the piracy apologist Repost (Score:5, Insightful)
(2) See point 1.
(3) Price is only brought forth as an argument by people who did not think things through. The fundamenal cause is the fact that the whole process of "manufacturing" and "distribution" and "ownership" of information is a lie. Information is not an object that can have an "owner" and thus is not subject to a simplistic world-view concocted by one Adam Smith, otherwise known as capitalism.
(4) The whole idea of copyright is sheer lunacy to begin with. Discussing its length is like arguing over the type of brush you would use to paint the Moon green next Tuesday while standing on your porch. The fact that it is accepted as a de-facto "wisdom" is truly sad and depressing.
(5) Yes. And no, the author has no "right" to be selling "his" music. The only "right" he has is to perform the music he (or others) composed. If he can manage to get people to come hear it and they agree to pay at the gate, there is his source of income. If he is not good enough for that, he should get a day job. I will never get tired of saying that "art" is defined as a willingess to express ones thoughts and feelings in a way that others find it inspiring and moving. The very expression is its own justification and reward. It is not a "job", never you mind "industry". Art can be sponsored if it is particularly good and thus freeing the artist to pursue her creative urges. But it is not a business.
(6) Many "artists" (I use the term loosely since you seem to include all sorts of talentless commercial-jingle hacks in this) were mislead into believing that "art" is a career. That one can make a killing on it. Unfortunately its a lie designed by people who were in the business of marketing and distribution of their works. For a time it worked and was technically feasible. Not any more. Digital age has finally exposed the fundamental fallacy of "art as business" ideology.
(7) Neither one is a "business" model. Although one can make money around services based on free things, it is up to that person's business talents and other external conditions. Free stuff on the net is called Information. Information, due to its properties, is fundamentally not capable of being "owned" by anyone.
(8) Live performance and other equivalent labour can be monetarilly rewarded by the attending audience. Having the performance recorded once and then getting paid million times by having someone elses (fully paid for) equipment perform in your place, based on information embedded in a piece of plastic, is a form of fraud. Never you mind claiming that said piece of plastic is yours to control even though the sucker paid for it.
(9) You can easilly control access to live performances and thus ensure payment. You can sell t-shirts and all sorts of other stuff leveraging your name recognition. You can use your name recognition for advertising purposes. Thats capitalism. "selling" information that cannot be "sold" is a just con-artistry.
(10) You better believe it. Dissemination of information is not only my right, it is one of the most fundamental and un-alienable rights that trump most other gibberish that passes for "rights" and "laws" these days. Information = thought. And if you think that I will give up my ability to freely exchange thoughts and ideas so that a bunch if greed monkeys can get rich, you got another thing coming. While I understand that "capitalist" mentality is that "making profit" takes precedence over everything else in the universe, luckilly most of us do not subscribe to this lunacy.
(11) Noone can demand free enterntaiment. The consequence of information being not a "thing" that can be "owned" is that enterntaiment over digital media in exchange for payment is not viable. That is the logical downside of sticking to one's principles. Fortunately, the need for
Re:Song of the piracy apologist (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You're a moron (Score:1, Insightful)
Oh well let's just pack up the forums and go home, because "bonch" knows exactly how to handle this! Hint: your statement is an opinion. Don't pass it off as fact.
"Why the hell do you think PC sales are so low...we've got everything from Far Cry to Invisible War to SimCity 4 to Rollercoaster Tycoon 2 to...you get the picture"
Yes, I get the picture, but I don't think it's the picture you're wanting me to get. Take a look at that statement of yours again.. The problem is that there are SO many games out there, obviously the sales are going to be spread a little thin. Now, take a console that has maybe 3 really good games released each year, and maybe a dozen cruddy titles. Wow, those 3 games are selling like mad! Must be because there's no piracy. Right..
No matter what you think, Doom 3 will be a huge seller despite the amount of piracy going on. If a game is good, it earns a good chunk of money. Sure it gets pirated, but the effect is very minimal. In fact, I'd even say that the effects of piracy are inconsequential.
Re:Song of the piracy apologist (Score:2, Insightful)
Huh? In what way? What are you talking about?
I'll concede that it's worth compromising free speech...
Personally, I'm not sure anything is worth compromising free speech. I can understand the laws in Germany that prohibit Nazi paraphenelia or propaganda, but even in that case my mind kinda hits a wall. The cultural need for such regulation seems apparent enough, but it can't be done without cramping something vital. I think freedom of speech as a civic principal has a special relation to the other tenents of democracy. It is as Samuel Johnson (IIRC) said of courage: it's the one virtue that facilitates all the others.
I'm not grasping an unabiguous logic here. In what way does noting that Bob Dylan wrote "Just Like a Woman" infringe upon the free speech of everyone who isn't Bob Dylan? What does any of that have to do with putting mp3s on a p2p network? Surely you aren't claiming that you're politically oppressed by David Geffen and the like are you?
But those rights should only be short term. The founding fathers stated something like 14 years with a one-time 14 year extension.
That sounds alright. But why is this a topic of discussion? Are the mp3s on Gnutella a product of civil disobediance?
Things happen *much* faster now, so those terms should be shorter, not longer.
How do we measure our current "speed" relative to that of the 18th Century so as to come up with a theoretically proper expiration date on copyrights?
When they stop infringing my rights, I'll start caring about theirs.
What rights of yours are "they" infringing? If you sincerely believe yourself to be engaged in a struggle for "rights" then how will "not caring" about their rights ever advance your cause? If they do let up on the downward pressure they are apparently exerting on your life will you respond in kind? If so, what rights of theirs will you begin to care about?
This debate has been hashed and rehashed on /. for years now without any forward movement towards a fresh, positive resolution. That may be because there isn't one to be found. With that in mind I would like to suggest that asking the author of a work for permission to trade something on a p2p network seems like a fair guiding principal. It reflects (or at least harmonizes with) the dictates of respect that most of us express and rely upon in our daily lives.
The law is the law... (Score:5, Insightful)
The real problem (or the real solution depending on your point of view) is that warez groups are nothing without an audience. They are also nothing without new crackers, suppliers, distribution sites, hangers-on...
Its a problem with a social solution primarily and a technological solution secondarily. As what good is a VPN network of warez creation and distribution if you can still have one weak link, one infiltration, one "Donnie Brasco" to blow your whole house of cards down.
Encryption and authentication and access control are terrific for protecting your assets, only when you have a strong legal system to take over when there is a breach of authority/conduct.
And while I certainly would not put people who pirate software in the same criminal class as those who manufacture and distribute drugs, run prostitution rings, or fraudulently manage mutual funds... what they are doing is against the law in most of the world -- and they are organized.
Re:Song of the piracy apologist Repost (Score:3, Insightful)
...PBS stations all over the country have formed a viable business model on the assumption that the majority of viewers would be free-riders.
...If music isn't meant to be heard and shared -- to form a common cultural bond and experience
I noticed that you are approaching a point of view that I hold for some time now, alas without articulating it. Note that all of these answers and many, many, more solutions to the current legal and mental contortions introduced by the "Software Industry", sattelite TV broadcasts, etc. can be provided with a simple all-encompassing approach: information is not an object that can be "owned" and thus is not subject to the Capitalist model.
Information simply does not possess required physical attributes to be property. And as such it cannot be sold or bought. In this case the laws of Nature clash with laws of Capitalism. Unfortunately Adam Smith's model is unbending and unyelding as many rigid and simplistic philosophical systems developed in 19th century, with insufficient foresight. As some were short on understanding of the human nature (Marx), some others seem to fall apart when confronted with laws of physics.
Treating information as if it could be commercial property leads to all sorts of amusing perversions of law and to comical technologies, all designed to hide the very lie at their core. Only when our society finally understands this fundamental problem and abandons these misguided attempts will we be rid of this nonsense and associated political efforts to control the uncontrollable.
"Elites" (Score:4, Insightful)
As you might expect there were dating boards, just plain social boards, and of course porn boards. But the most exclusive ones were the pirate BBSes--also known as "elite" boards. You had to know a current member or the sysop to get access. And then you had to contribute by uploading software that you might have access to.
In these early days it seemed like many software developers used elite BBSes as free beta test groups. Those who downloaded the software (often taking hours even on the superfast Telebits and USRs) would test it and post any bugs, feature-requests, etc. There was even a super-elite board that I heard about based in Alaska where only the big name developers were allowed.
It was from that experience years ago where I think that some software piracy can/should be acceptable. What high school student can afford the $650 for Photoshop? But a pirated copy can train this student for work in the future, and the company that s/he will work for will provide a legitimate copy. Businesses is where most developers (with the exception of games obviously) make their money.
Re:With regards to Slashdot... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Song of the piracy apologist Repost (Score:3, Insightful)
It's been part of the law for ages. Take patent infringment for example. That is theft of an idea.
Theft doesn't require something physical.
No. You cannot. Simply redefining word "theft" to account for one's greedy attempt at profiting from something that is fundamentally not subject to the capitalist model does not make it real theft. Theft can only occur if a physical object is taken from you and as a result you are no longer in possesion of it. Thats it. No fudging, no but-ifs, no "alternate, modern interpretations".
Patents, copyrights and associated contortions and perversions of law are there because the "Intellectual Property" con-artists are adept at twisting the obvious so that the politicians and dumbfounded public go along with the scam. At society's expense naturally.
Re:Song of the piracy apologist (Score:2, Insightful)
Every time the government grants a copy right or patent to someone, it denies everyone else their right to do the same thing. Within reason, I believe that this is an appropriate compromise of our freedoms as AMERICANS. I don't mean to sound arrogant about what I consider my rights as an American to be; I'm simply restating the values that were drilled into my head as a part of a Federally regulated public school curriculum. Freedom to do *anything* is the default. It's where one persons's freedom conflicts with another person's that the law is supposed to set limits.
If you sincerely believe yourself to be engaged in a struggle for "rights" then how will "not caring" about their rights ever advance your cause?
While I generally believe in the tenet that two wrongs don't make a right, I feel that a contract has been breeched. They haven't played by the rules, they've bought new ones and I don't accept them. Most people I've talked to about this agree that copy right terms, silly patents, and the ability of big business to use the government against the consumer have gotten way out of hand. Democracy? Free enterprise? Oligopoly is more like it.
If they do let up on the downward pressure they are apparently exerting on your life will you respond in kind?
My attitude would be much different. FWIW my opinions used to be very capitalistic. I used to have tremendous respect for big companies and the people who created and ran them. It's only recently that I've found myself on the other side of the fence, and I'm quite sure that the fence has moved more than I have.
This may get buried, but (Score:3, Insightful)
That dick that wants to be your county judge just might springboard his career off your apathy and be the next circuit court justice siding with whoever pays him off.
Fucking care people. Kick people out who take payola. VOTE VOTE VOTE
Re:The law is the law... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sometimes just because something is illegal, doesn't mean it's wrong. As a matter of fact, if any of these groups were doing this for profit, I'd say they were worse than drug dealers. But that isn't the case.
Re:I'm not affected (Score:3, Insightful)
You WANT that site to get as popular as kazaa? The unwashed masses are the only ones the (RI|MP)AA care about, Napster worked fine until everybody and their uncle was on it.
Addiction == freedom? (Score:4, Insightful)
Mind you, I'm from the NL, so I'm used to a pretty liberal (as in free, not as in left-wing) view to drugs, but then again, we divide drugs into 2 categories:
1. Soft drugs, which are not or marginally harmful and not or marginally addiction inducing.
2. Hard drugs, which are harmful and make you addicted fast.
So I don't mind per se about selling 'soft drugs', but I do mind selling any drugs to children and I do care about selling hard drugs. Because you can ask yourself if children are ready to consiously decide whether they want to use drugs and when you use hard drugs, then you lose all your freedom. The only thing that matters then is getting your next shot.
Then again, a lot of people learn to live with their hard drugs addiction. We call them 'smokers'
Re:Call them "Evil Doers" next... (Score:5, Insightful)
Gee, ya think? They're a for-profit company, not a charity, so they'll charge whatever the market will bear. If this happens to be "afforable" for you, then so be it. If not, tought shit, get a better job.
First of all, if you really need the power of Photoshop, then you sure as hell can afford it. And, you can probably even write the purchase off as a business expense to boot! If this doesn't apply to you, then there is little reason for you to be using Photoshop in the first place. Next, an inexpensive version of Photoshop already exists called Photoshop Elements. And guess what? People _still_ pirate it. Why? Because people like getting shit for free. Look at MP3's.. you can buy a legitimate song online for the change in your couch, but somehow magically mp3 piracy is rampant. Ask yourself, is this because $0.99 a song is somehow "overpriced" or is it because people who have no moral qualms with copyright infringement will always choose free over non-free (as in beer).
OK. Let's say I sell product X for $1000, and at that price I'm only able to sell 1 unit. I've made a cool thousand bucks. Now, let's say that I sell product X for $1 and at this price level, I'm able to sell 1000 units. Guess what? I've made out the same as before. What do I do if I want to make my "sales numbers increase so much?" Well, obviously the answer can't simply be to drop prices as we've just seen. Instead, I need to find the price point that maximizes profit. Lowering the price may or may not be effective in accomplishing this. Next, they are so greedy? OK, maybe they are. Maybe the CEO's make money totally out of proportion to the amount of work they do. However, at least they did _some_ work! Have the people pirating material done _any_? No, they've done nothing to deserve the material they've just pirated. Who's greedier now?
Laugh. They can't afford them? Then they have absolutely no right to use them! You have no God-given right to use any product that you so please. The only thing that grants you this right, is the cash to buy said product. Hell, I drive a 1997 VW with 145,000 miles. I'm kind of sick of it and would _really_ love a shiny new BMW, but I can't afford it. Do I somehow deserve this BMW even though it is "overpriced" and I can't afford it?
That works out because Microsoft also controls the overwhelming majority of the OS market. Since they control such a large portion of this huge market, Microsoft is going to make enough money to be "the world's largest software company" while simultanesouly producing the "most pirated OS ever." Even if 99% of OS X installations were pirated and only 1% of Windows were, it's obvious that Microsoft would make more money, and I'd be willing to bet that the actual numbers would make Windows piracy more widespread than OS X as well.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove here? If the store is going to sell pirated versions of XP (which they will take a 100% cut out of), then why the hell would they even be selling the legitimate version (which they will get a very small cut of) _at all_?? Moreover, I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'd put mon
Re:Now, that's comedy (Score:3, Insightful)
Is anyone SERIOUSLY arguing for the right to disseminate the creations of other people for free?
Get paid to create information, not own it. Once it is distributed you cannot control it anymore.
Copyright law is hindering the world, not helping.
but you are right.. it won't happen unless there is a major social change.
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