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Senator Leahy Calls for RFID Technology Hearings 218

Posted by michael from the hear-ye-hear-ye dept.
securitas writes "Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy has called for congressional hearings into radio frequency identification (RFID) technology. The comments were made Mar. 23 to the Georgetown University Law Center's conference on video surveillance technology during a speech titled 'The Dawn of Micro Monitoring: Its Promise, And Its Challenges To Privacy And Security'. Leahy suggested that RFIDs may require federal regulation to ensure the public's privacy rights. Leahy is quoted as saying that the combination of RFIDs, sophisticated databases, networks and the Internet means that, 'We are on the verge of a revolution in micro-monitoring - the capability for the highly detailed, largely automatic, widespread surveillance of our daily lives.' He goes on to say that, 'We need clear communication about the goals, plans, and uses of the technology, so that we can think in advance about the best ways to encourage innovation, while conserving the public's right to privacy.' (Leahy's RFID speech transcript)"
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Senator Leahy Calls for RFID Technology Hearings More

Senator Leahy Calls for RFID Technology Hearings

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  • RFID is good tech with great abuse potential (Score:5, Interesting)

    by onyxruby ( 118189 ) * <onyxruby&comcast,net> on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:42AM (#8678877)
    RFID is good technology, with a lot of potential and a number of legitimate uses. Unfortunately it can also put big brother in your pocket, shoes, shirt and pants. If they could do just three key elements in a law I think it could flourish without privacy fears and diminished abuse potential.

    Only allow people to scan for RFID that match a white list of your own property or property in your care with your consent. Any reading not on a white list must be discarded. Once an item is sold it is no longer their property and must be removed from the white list - with todays pos tech this would be absurdly easy to implement. This would allow retailers and distribution centers to use it for their own logistical and loss prevention purposes. This would also keep people minding their own business - literaly.

    IF an RFID tag is on an item it should be prominently labeled, and be removable without destruction, devaluation or vandalism to the item that is attached to. For example, someone here asked a bit back, why not just cot off the tag? Answer - some clothing is now comes tagless.

    Make sure that warranties and returns do not require RFID tags in order to be upheld. Someone should not be required to keep an RFID tag on something valuable just because they may have to get warranty service on it someday. As more powerful readers (blackmarket /will/ produce them) come about, they would become a neon broadcast flag to theives.
    • Isn't it true that most scenarios currently being considered by retailers involve removing/disabling the tags at checkout? If so, then how is this any more of a privacy concern than barcodes and credit card machines which are already in place?

      • Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential (Score:5, Interesting)

        by onyxruby ( 118189 ) * <onyxruby&comcast,net> on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:05AM (#8679033)
        I have heard this, but then this is to be optional from what I understand. If the tag is destroyed at checkout, that's great. However until we get something requiring it, the public has to take it on faith, and I just don't trust the marketing types. Voluntary guidelines for retailers are just that - voluntary. Less scrupulous retailers will opt out, and thieves will take advantage. If it isn't in writing, codified as law, it's meaningless.

        • Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential (Score:4, Interesting)

          by whereiswaldo ( 459052 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @11:03AM (#8679555) Journal
          If it isn't in writing, codified as law, it's meaningless.

          I believe that codifying restrictions into law is only part of a solution. The technology itself needs to be produced so that breaking the law is very difficult. Otherwise, read up on "how to boil a frog".

          Examples:

          - make RFID tags biodegradable

          - make RFID tags readable only a certain number of times before they stop working

          On the law side, prohibit the correlation of RFID and any of a person's personal information. The tag should only be used for inventory purposes.

          Still, with such a powerful technology, accepting it at all makes me nervous. Accepting RFID with limitations is still the first step towards acceptance without limitations. Perhaps this the stage of "pacifying the public".

          • Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential (Score:4, Insightful)

            by VargrX ( 104404 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @11:48AM (#8679996) Journal
            so sayeth whereiswaldo:

            Examples:
            - make RFID tags biodegradable
            nice idea, but how do you embed the ciruitry into something that won't either a) think that the circuit is food, or b) evolve the biomass into something non-degradable by normal means?

            - make RFID tags readable only a certain number of times before they stop working
            this implie's a powersource that could concievably be larger/bulkier than the tag itself, adding circuitry for logic, et al.
            all in all, a more expensive proposition.

            Nice idea's, but, IMHO, I don't see either of these examples happening.

            • Actually many of the RF security tags in use today have a fusible component. When the item is sold, the cashier runs it over the "burn pad". It emits a substantially higher power level of RF signal than the door readers. The high level of RF being pumped through that tiny antenna causes a fusible link to actually burn out, rendering the tag "dead." No logic involved, and it's ultra-cheap off the shelf technology that's in widespread use today.

              These RF security tags are recognizable as square paper-bac

      • Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential (Score:5, Insightful)

        by plover ( 150551 ) * on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:09AM (#8679061) Homepage Journal
        Isn't it true that most scenarios currently being considered by retailers involve removing/disabling the tags at checkout?

        No, it's not true.

        Retailers are exploring the potential for returning items based on the RFID tag. That requires the tag to remain active while in the customer's possession.

        The benefits of using a durable tag are obvious: the retailer won't require a receipt for the return, as it can simply look up the history of the item, figure out how much you paid for it, and whether you paid cash, check or credit card, and return your money correctly.

        The drawbacks are unknown (or at least known only to some privacy wonks who are routinely lumped in with the tinfoil hat brigade,) and that's what Senator Leahy says he wants to explore. Right now, major U.S. retailers are looking to invest lots of money in RFID. Once that expensive infrastructure is in place, they will fight hard to keep it. Senator Leahy wants to make sure that these retailers start out with a long-term acceptable solution, rather than wage a battle later.

        I find myself mostly agreeing with the Senator Leahy on many issues. He's certainly the most tech-savvy Senator in the nation, and he appears "geek-friendly" in my eyes. I just wish he was the Senator from my state.

      • Yes (Score:2, Funny)

        by Greyfox ( 87712 )
        Ok, when you read the next line, do it in the voice of Professor Farnsworth:

        Yes! Each customer will be subjected to a blast of MICROWAVE RADIATION at the door, which will safely destroy the RFID tags without harming the products they're attached to! An ingenious solution! Whaaa?


      • One of the currently discussed uses is embedding them into license plates on your car.

        Helps prevent theft, right? Well, possibly.

        Alternatly, you could stick the readers on Interstate overpasses and read who goes by when.

        With multiple overpasses, it becomes very easy to establish what your average speed is during that time.

        "Thank you, and a speeding ticket has been mailed to your home."

        Many cities already have Red Light Cameras which do essentially the same thing.
    • Someone should not be required to keep an RFID tag on something valuable just because they may have to get warranty service on it someday.

      That's right. Warranty service should be redeemable on a product regardless. However, there are some manufacturers ( Netgear [netgear.com] comes to mind) who require that you register with them or you don't have a warranty.

      It's just like having an RFID tag, imo...

      RFID is good technology, with a lot of potential and a number of legitimate uses.

      Gotta agree with you there. Some of t
      • Check the last paragraph that you replied to there. I do believe that RFIDs will probably follow (and most likely include) UPC info. That's to say that if I'm looking for a wide-screen TV, I might just ping through your walls for it - check a UPC database for brands, and know what house to Target.

        Before a criminal would actually have to look through your window!

        Of course, there are much more important points as well. How embarrassing would it be if someone pinged RFIDs for medications or adult toys?

        This is stuff that could directly effect government people personally. Wait till the press get's hold of RFID codes for things that congressmen own? Imagine political camaigns run on, "Would you trust your vote in congress to someone who keeps 400 adult videos in his living room?

        Don't worry - Congress is just as suspicious of the Press as the Press is suspicious of Congress. RFID privacy laws will be passed - and probably appended to wire-tapping laws.

        • Well, ideally, RFIDs should be disabled on property after purchase by the consumer, otherwise yes, a lot of information would be leaking.
        • How embarrassing would it be if someone pinged RFIDs for medications or adult toys?

          Adult toys are illegal in some places in the US! See This Findlaw article [findlaw.com]. Facing arrest in the state of Texas is a bit worse than embarassing. Same with prescription medicines, some of which are controlled substances. Do you want to be harassed because you put a few aspirin in an old vicodin bottle? Or because you crossed a state line and what was legal in your home is now illegal?

        • That's absurd. RFIDs are passive, meaning they have very, very short range (a few inches, couple feet at most). To "scan" a house from the street, you'd need an enormous transmitter/receiver combo, which would generate a tremendous amount of RF noise that would be sure to be noticed in a neighborhood.

          Secondly, even if you did manage to get the RFID tag number, how exactly would you "check a UPC database?" FYI, these tags are not like UPC codes. UPC codes are not unique. The first 5 (4?) digits of a UP

    • Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential (Score:4, Insightful)

      by cuban321 ( 644777 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:57AM (#8678975) Homepage
      I agree. My worry is not so much monitoring as it is public safety. How do I know twenty years from now my girlfriends/SOs necklace/ring won't have an RFID tag in it saying what it is and how much it's worth. Some shady character comes along, uses his blackmarket scanner to figure out if she's worth mugging and then mugs her.

      I know it's a stretch, and I know most petty muggers won't have RFID scanners...

      Another example: What's to stop a car jacker from stealing my laptop out of my car while I get a drink or pay for my gas? If he knows it's there then he knows he'll get something more than a few CDs worth out of breaking into my car...

      Daniel
      • I agree. My worry is not so much monitoring as it is public safety. How do I know twenty years from now my girlfriends/SOs necklace/ring won't have an RFID tag in it saying what it is and how much it's worth. Some shady character comes along, uses his blackmarket scanner to figure out if she's worth mugging and then mugs her.

        Or, even worse, she gets a blackmarket scanner and finds out that the necklace you bought her is really a cubic zirconium...
    • >Unfortunately it can also put big brother in >your pocket, shoes, shirt and pants.

      That gives a whole new meaning to "wardrobe malfunction"...
    • I've seen these rules posted before, propably by you, and I think they're are great idea.

      Perhaps you should send Mr. Leahy an email/letter/giant billboard in front of his house?
      • Yup, I pretty much copied what I wrote a few days ago. Plagarizing yourself is ok I think. I even nabbed my typo on "cot". It seemed relevant the other day, but the comment entered late and didn't get too far. I just went and refined it a bit and reposted. As for contacting Mr Leahy, I think I will, I tend to like to contact my congress-critters anyways. He isn't mine, so a lot of time that means their office doesn't much want to hear from you (Orrin Hatch comes to mind), but I'll try anyways.
    • Only allow people to scan for RFID that match a white list of your own property or property in your care with your consent. Any reading not on a white list must be discarded. Once an item is sold it is no longer their property and must be removed from the white list - with todays pos tech this would be absurdly easy to implement.

      And even easier to circumvent. That's like making everyone's root password be "passw0rd", but then requiring peoplle to use ssh clients which will only connect to the "white list

    • Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential (Score:4, Interesting)

      by sirdude ( 578412 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:32AM (#8679224)
      Security/privacy concerns aside, I personally believe that RFID is another in a series of technologies that I term as "Frenetic and lazy tech". While I'm sure that there are many wonderful and groundbreaking practical uses (for e.g. in medicine etc.), once these technologies find their way into our daily lives, it's just going to be one more way for all of us to cut down on social interaction, exercise, etc. etc.

      With everybody in this generation expecting everything to be done "now, right now and right from where my arse is parked", RFID's aren't exactly going to help. Already, the current generation isn't one known for it's patience. I shudder to think what people in 30-40 years time are going to be like.

      As an aside, it would be interesting to see what positions (of employment) have pretty much completely disappeared in the last 40 years. Switchboard operators, "shoe-shiners" etc. and now it seems supermarket checkout staff as well..
    • Once an item is sold it is no longer their property and must be removed from the white list - with todays pos tech this would be absurdly easy to implement

      the problem is, how do you enforce this? is there going to be a POS-terminal-checking task force that will conduct surprise random spot checks (think WMD inspection teams?) at Wal-Marts across the country?

      • Yup, and the store will typically even install them. You know those little gates you pass through on your way out of a store for shoplifting? All you do is change those to have RFID scanners in the them and they'll go off if a match is made to the white list. The stores will do this as an anti-shoplifting measure of their won, easy solve, that one.
    • I work at a gas station, and we have an average sized cigarette rack. Every night, before close, the supervisor has to count all the cigarettes (often this is me). It's a tremendous pain in the ass, there are usually around 1,000 packs of smokes on any given day.

      Now, just think if those smokes all had RFID's embedded in the plastic wrapping. Then I could just wave a little wand, and get the readout. It would reduce errors in counting, and it would be faster, too. And if the RFID tag was in the plastic wrap

  • Wow, a politician that isn't clueless.... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Hopefully, any legislation proposed on protecting privacy can be passed without goobering it up with unrelated riders...
    • Remember members of Congress are consumers to. Because privacy issues effect them directly (think National Enquirer reporters sneaking around politician's homes with RFID scanners**), it will pass, and probably more quickly than we might think.

      The problem is always there someone who's doesn't fully understand the issues will amend related riders that use specific examples - making the whole thing easy to work around.

      --

      **I use National Enquirer here because they have broken real political stories. They

  • There now. Don't you feel better? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:44AM (#8678887)
    He's calling for hearings. That means that the government is looking out for you. Right?

    Or is the government just making gestures so that you will feel better while, they don't really do anything at all? Sorta like airport security.

    Have you voted? [linuxsurveys.com]

  • I suggest (just to get this out of the way now) (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:44AM (#8678892)
    ... investing in companies that produce aluminum foil and copper mesh.

  • I like RFID (Score:4, Insightful)

    by USAPatriot ( 730422 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:44AM (#8678894) Homepage
    I think the hysteria on slashdot over RFID is so overblown. This technology is just another technology that has good uses and bad uses.

    Most people don't particularly care that they can potentially be tracked with their purchases. It's already happening now, and the world hasn't come to an end. Bar codes and their scanners hasn't made life worse for anybody.

    It's funny to see slashdot, home of tech geeks turn into luddites over some things.

    • Re:I like RFID (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:54AM (#8678953)
      It's funny to see slashdot, home of tech geeks turn into luddites over some things.
      And with good reason: the Luddites had a valid argument and were correct in their protest. The society they grew up in made them commit large amounts of their time to gaining expertise in a particular trade, so they were unemployable if that trade vanished. Therefore, in return for that, they expected reasonable treatmentwhen new technology was introduced - say, a pension scheme for people put out of work. Instead, all the profits were grabbed by the mill owners. Technology is not a panacea, and new technology always requires care and consideration in its use.

    • Re:I like RFID (Score:5, Insightful)

      by YanceyAI ( 192279 ) * <IAMYANCEY@yahoo.com> on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:54AM (#8678956)
      You're wrong. I consider myself an average American and I'm concerned about targeted marketing. I'm concerned about the advertising my child is exposed to, about the way McDonald's sucks our children in with bright colors and playgrounds so that I have to be the bad guy when I say "no", and the way television turns commercials into cartoons to suck in new consumers.

      I do not want marketers to know anything more than they already do about my online browsing habits, or worse, my personal hygene and dietary preferences,including what kind of cereal my three year old eats...

      • Why are you the "bad guy" when you say "no"? If you've raised your child(ren) with a consistent set of directions, they know that something like McDonalds is a "special treat". Or, are you the type of parent that thinks TV is a good babysitter? After all, why are you concerned about advertising? Your child(ren), whom you imply are quite young, shouldn't be watching that much TV that their thoughts are being formed/affected by advertising (while this can be considered my personal value judgement, exposure to

        • Re:I like RFID (Score:2, Insightful)

          by YanceyAI ( 192279 ) *
          My child gets no more than the recommended maximum of television every day, usually much less, and we have "no TV" days. Also, cash is a great idea, but it's easier if you have a three year old to reduce the number of stops (going to the bank means more time for us in the car, more gas used, less time at home with the family). Stopping at a gas station to use cash means getting my daughter out of the carseat and back in, turning 7 minutes into 15. I like my local grocery store, which is also much closer tha

          • Just because there's a recommended maximum amount of TV for a day, doesn't mean that the child should watch that much (or a little less) every day. Heck, I'd make the arguement that a kid shouldn't watch any TV, most of the time, and that's not restricted to most of the time in a day day, but more like most of the week. There's tons of other things to do, like ride bikes, play in the yard, swim, participate in organized sports, play games with friends, school, homework, read. Heck, where's the time to watch

      • I'm concerned about targeted marketing.

        Why? Isn't it a good thing? Why should they waste time, money, and paper sending me flyers telling me Tampax is on sale? Wouldn't I rather get coupons for steak? (Yes!)

        I do not want marketers to know anything more than they already do about my online browsing habits, or worse, my personal hygene and dietary preferences,including what kind of cereal my three year old eats...

        What if they used that info to send you coupons for the right brand of cereal? If your

        • Re:I like RFID (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Blakey Rat ( 99501 )
          I agree that well-targetted marketting is great for both the consumer and the company selling the product. The company gets a much higher return for their advertising dollar, and the consumer will be genuinely grateful for the deals they recieve. Everybody wins. Heck, in anything else, I'm waiting for the day when PVR boxes replace all the commercials with ones tailored to the products I buy.

          What always amuses me is when I'm watching "Adult Swim" on Cartoon Network (which is definately not kiddie-stuff)

    • Re:I like RFID (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Entrope ( 68843 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:03AM (#8679020) Homepage
      I make most of my small ($100) purchases with cash. How do bar codes and scanners make me traceable for those? I do not have a bar code tattooed on my forehead, and most bar codes are on packaging, tags, or other things I do not keep with the item I buy. Once I remove the bar code, it becomes useless for tracking the item or me.

      RFID, on the other hand, works at range and without a direct line of sight. That is a major selling point for RFID over bar codes (the other would be that you don't need a particular orientation to receive the signal). When an RFID tag is embedded in clothes, I become much more traceable. If I am already wearing or carrying an active RFID tag, somebody can trace it back to find my identity without my permission or knowledge.

      Sure, you can argue that facial and gait recognition will make that inevitable anyway, but that technology is not ready yet and will not be practical until after RFID is deployed. RFID privacy regulations would set a precedent on how you can or cannot use other high tech means to interrogate someone's identity.
      • I make most of my small ($100) purchases with cash. How do bar codes and scanners make me traceable for those?

        Cash has serial numbers. Unless you found it on the street, you probably got that cash from a bank machine, which you accessed using your personal bank card. So they knew you had that cash. And when you guy anything electronic, they have serial numbers, so they could track that and even know which individual DVD player you bought, even though you paid cash.

        You see, all you tin-foil-hatters out
    • You are so right. In fact, I have a chemical plant that I would like to install in your back yard. Don't worry about it. It has good uses and bad uses. Just a little bit of dioxin production.

      I think it is safe to say that every geek on this site would love to play with the RFID and look forward to the day that it can be deployed. But there are others here who grew up in a "safe" time and remember past history; Love Canal, Lake Erie, FBI director Hoover, etc. None of these were planned, they just happened s
    • I think the hysteria on slashdot over RFID is so overblown. This technology is just another technology that has good uses and bad uses.

      I've got two words for you: Logan's Run

      Imagine the security potential. Everyone has an RFID tag on or embedded in them. There will be checkpoints at airports, border crossings, etc. If you don't have a tag, or your database entry is flagged, then security brings you behind doors for "interrogation".

      Personally, I'm scared. Generally, I'm not a luddite, but I se

  • Finally... (Score:4, Funny)

    by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:45AM (#8678899) Homepage Journal
    Wow, a congressional committee is now going to weigh in! In 5 or 10 years, I'm sure they'll have something interesting to say about today's situation...

  • A real issue here (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cluckshot ( 658931 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:48AM (#8678920)

    This is a serious issue. The matter of someone being able to monitor everything people do will call into question all manner of legal issues and definitely needs thought before it is implemented.

    The issue of what this tech can be used for has so many deep and penetrating details. If RFID tags are in your purchace goods and you check out but they remain active as you drive down the road, can the police access the data without a search warrant? How about a marketing company checking all of the goods and seeing your travels etc. What do we do about Identity Theft here? There are so many issues that need looked into. Doubtless even if we try there are many more we have not even thought of yet.

    Civilized people are facing the choice between the individual becoming merely a tool or cog in the Commercial world of the Industrialists or if the Industrialists tools will work for the Individual. Making this decision out of ignorance is not wise.

    • "can the police access the data without a search warrant?"

      I wouldn't be to worried about the police and RFID. I can't see there being to many illegal products with RFID tags. For some reason I can't see drugs, illegal guns, or anything else like that using RFID tags.

      • Re:A real issue here (Score:3, Insightful)

        by plover ( 150551 ) *
        How about this perfectly legitimate desire of the police to use RFID?

        Picture RFID scanner at the doors of a bank, recording every RFID tag that passes through them. The bank is robbed at gunpoint. The surveillance cameras come up with a blurry photo that reveals nothing more than a guy wearing a Bill Clinton Halloween mask. But the RFID scanner recorded tennis shoes purchased from the Buffalo, Minnesota WalM*rt (credit card #12345), jeans purchased from the Buffalo Target (same credit card), underwear

      • With the history of police contracting out traffic enforcement to companies who rigged stop lights and used cameras it probably should worry people about what the police might do.

        This isn't a case of "if you don't have anything to hide." Remember that RFID tags if spoofed could hang the wrong guy!

        The case of someone exiting a bank post robbery gives "Probable Cause." But merely scanning everyone doesn't give "Probable Cause." This has to do with how we use and access the data. The bank camera is OK to u

  • Contradiction (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Vindictive ( 742525 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:49AM (#8678927)
    "We are on the verge of a revolution in micro-monitoring - the capability for the highly detailed, largely automatic, widespread surveillance of our daily lives." And in the next sentence says: "while conserving the public's right to privacy." If I know anything, it's that it can't be both ways...

  • This one is easy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by EmagGeek ( 574360 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:50AM (#8678935) Journal
    ALL RFID tags MUST be PERMANENTLY disabled BEFORE a purchased article leaves the premises of the place it was purchased.

    It would be a simple, one-sentence law that would solve the entire problem. Of course, our government would rather spend a billion dollars in pork barrel research grants in order to come to the same conclusion... I'm sure there's a Vermont think-tank that is pushing Sen. Leahy for this "investigation"
  • I doubt congress themselves would want to be watched and tracked all the time. Think of all the shady deals they have going on... now if they were tracked all the congressmen would be potentially screwed. They might be more concerned with big brother than /. users are.

  • distance (Score:5, Insightful)

    by enkafan ( 604078 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:54AM (#8678951)
    I still haven't figured out what the big deal about "tracking people's purchases" is all about. I really haven't looked into this much, but I understand that the things can't be read from more than 5 feet away. I mean, if the government is within 5ft of my refrigerator monitoring my pizza bites, I think I have much worse problems than being tracked.

    • Yuh Huh (Score:5, Funny)

      by Greyfox ( 87712 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:25AM (#8679162) Homepage Journal
      Kind of like the radiation from your monitor should disperse within a few feet and be unreadable to anyone. I bet the same black vans that are already following you around can read the tags just fine, and what will you do once they know your fashion sense?

      Agent 1: Reading target now. Oh... Oh my God... He's wearing a shirt from the gap and pants from Old Navy!
      Agent 2: That... son... of... a... BITCH!

      • "Kind of like the radiation from your monitor should disperse within a few feet and be unreadable to anyone. I bet the same black vans that are already following you around can read the tags just fine, and what will you do once they know your fashion sense?"

        Just when you thought you were safe with your blinds drawn. (Also look up Marcus Kuhn in Germany)
        http://news.com.com/2100-1001-912785.html [com.com]

  • Taxes? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Lets face it, politicians only look at RFID as another form of "postage" for which to collect more taxes.

    If the true intent of his "hearings" was to vet the technology, he would have industry experts and companies that are employing RFID today go before him and his council of elders.

    What we will see (as so often is the case) is hand wringing and posturing to present this as "evil corrupt corporate" technology.

    Never mind the 3M+ dogs that already have them imbedded in their necks.
    Never mind the windfall a

  • Public's privacy is gone; get rid of gov't/corp (Score:4, Interesting)

    by egburr ( 141740 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:55AM (#8678960) Homepage
    The public's (or individual's) privacy is already dead and long gone. What we need to do is mandate that all that information be open and free to everyone. Get rid of government and corporate privacy. If the governments and companies can obtain our data, we should be able to obtain theirs.

    If everyone can look up *anything* at all about *anyone*, there would probably be a lot less abuse than there is now. It's hard to blackmail someone when the information is already publically available, and when the victim could probably find something that the blackmailer wouldn't want called to the public's attention.

    As for identify theft, that's already a serious problem. We already need to find better ways to verify identity and authenticate authorization. Making all that personal data available to everyone probably won't cause an upswing in abuse; most of the people who would abuse having access to the data are already doing so.

  • I'll lay money on it that they outlaw (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pair-a-noyd ( 594371 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:56AM (#8678968)
    personal RFID blockers/jammers, like a keyfob you carry that gives you a privacy zone by jamming the freq. in say a 3' dia. zone around you.

    • I'll lay money on it that they outlaw personal RFID blockers/jammers
      Should such things become available, they may focus on regulating them to restrict their ability to interfer with other systems. Personal radio systems are allowed for things such as Bluetooth, and, of more relevance, devices, ranging from in-car hands-free cell phone units to homekaraoke mikes, that make use of the otherwise heavily regulated FM frequencies.

      Any regulation may limit the effectiveness of the devices, but I would expe

  • More irritating salesmen... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 26, 2004 @09:58AM (#8678977)
    Imagine when companies begin logging other stores RFID information, to monitor what types of things people are buying... Most stores will begin carrying similar items to what they see rolling in the door from competitors. I see that has the potential to limit choice, stores don't want to inventory anything that's not "popular" on a nation wide basis.

    Now the salesmen will have another tool to bother you with. There is the possibility that they could monitor competitors products rolling in the door so they can come up and say, "So, what are you looking for today. I notice you bought that shirt at Dillard's, we have a similar item over here that's even better..."

    I'd prefer the shit be deactivated totally at the register when I pay for it.

    It is nice to see that some people in the government are paying attention to what's going on. I wonder what consumer rights group contributes to his campain. :D

  • Retailers and RFID (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jrsimmons ( 469818 ) * on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:06AM (#8679040) Homepage Journal
    I'm intrigued by the discussion surround RFID and retail. Most of the discussions I've seen surround concerns about retailers gathering too much information about their customers' buying habits. The other major concern commonly noted deals with third party tracking of the rfid device once it leaves the store. However, neither of these seem like valid concerns to me.

    The ability to track a customer's buying habits, most retailers have that ability now. Bar codes uniquely identify a product. Unless you pay with cash (or a gift card at some retailers), the retailer has access to your name and some corresponding number (checking account or credit/debit card number). Those can easily be stored, RFID is not needed to accomplish this type of information gathering. In fact, many retailers use loyalty programs so that they can track cash and gift card purchases as well as credit/check. All of this begs the question: Is this a bad thing? If more information about your buying habits brings you lower prices, are you willing for your retailer to have that information?

    As for tracking the RFID signals once they leave the store, I do not expect this to be a valid concern for long. For a retailer to use rfid on its products for anything other than loss prevention, it needs to be on every product. That means small and cheap, which in turn will drive the manufactures to make them with as low of a signal and as little storage capacity as possible to meet the retailer's needs. And, much like the security tags today, it is a simple thing to disable the tag once it has been scanned/read at the Point of Sale. This would even be preferable, therefore making it easy to scan for tags that are still active trying to make it out of the store (ie, shoplifted items).

    All this is not to say there are no privacy concerns here. However, I think too much attention is placed on the retail use of RFID and not enough the other potential uses. Can anyone imagine DL's with embedded RFID? How about the RFID tag in my employee badge? These are the areas that I see real potential for abuse. At a retail store, if you don't want to be tracked, just pay with cash and don't use loyalty. You're data falls into the "other" bucket. If you don't mind being tracked, use your credit card, get your airline miles, your loyalty discount, and save a bucks.

    • Re:Retailers and RFID (Score:2, Informative)

      by Entrope ( 68843 )

      For a retailer to use rfid on its products for anything other than loss prevention, it needs to be on every product. That means small and cheap, which in turn will drive the manufactures to make them with as low of a signal and as little storage capacity as possible to meet the retailer's needs.

      The incremental cost of adding 96 bits of storage (say, going from 32 bits to 128 bits) is much lower than the benefits reaped from having the extra data. I mention 128 bits because most /.'ers have heard how much

    • "The ability to track a customer's buying habits, most retailers have that ability now. Bar codes uniquely identify a product. Unless you pay with cash (or a gift card at some retailers), the retailer has access to your name and some corresponding number (checking account or credit/debit card number). Those can easily be stored, RFID is not needed to accomplish this type of information gathering. In fact, many retailers use loyalty programs so that they can track cash and gift card purchases as well as cred

    • At a retail store, if you don't want to be tracked, just pay with cash and don't use loyalty.

      How long before that cash gets embedded RFID? Then it could be tracked to an account at a bank. And should it happen, it would be illegal to disable it.

      RFID adds two things:

      A bar code can be scanned once and is noticible. Bar codes aren't uniquely identifiable to a particular instance of an object.

      RFID allows tracking by serial number, and can be scanned without the owner knowing it, with a scanner placed a

    • Admittedly, I don't know how these rfid tags work (perhaps someone will enlighten me), but wouldn't a simple, directed blast of EM radiation disable them? I can see a market for simple devices that do this developing.

  • Resistence is futile. You will be RFID'ed (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ridgelift ( 228977 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:08AM (#8679055)
    "The RFID train is beginning to leave the station, and now is the right time to begin a national discussion about where, if at all, any lines will be drawn to protect privacy rights"

    Personally, I don't care if RFID's track my every move. I'm looking forward to their ubiquitous existence which WILL happen no matter what anyone wants.

    What does concern me is if RFID's are closed in their architecture. RFID's should be open so that any reader can read any RFID tag, which will probably happen anyway in order for them to become as prevalent as barcodes.

  • CA Bill (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ViceClown ( 39698 ) * on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:21AM (#8679143) Homepage Journal
    There is a bill [com.com] in California right now that sets out to address consumor privacy concerns. NPR also talked about this in the morning. I agree w/ poster #1 with the potential benefits of RFID and despite my liberal and consumer advocate leanings, I am in favor of them. Clearly, however, policy needs to be set for how they will function both in and out of stores/warehouses. Should they be deactivated when leaving a store? At first I thought yes, but then other potential uses are quashed. Suppose your refridgerator could give you an instant inventory? That kind of thing is something i'de like to have someday. A middle ground was proposed by RSA [theregister.co.uk] to have a bag that temporarily blocks RFID until you get home. I don't know how good that will work for all situations, though. Like it or not, RFID is coming. The benefits are just too great to ignore. The question is, how will it be regulated? Now is the time for consumers to lobby for legislation dictating how RFID can be used!
  • ...the public's privacy rights.

    Translation: We want our cut.

  • I'll take them on (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Britz ( 170620 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:26AM (#8679173)
    I've always said I don't mind RFID tags as long as there are no laws mandating them.

    I would probably choose to buy the product without a tag. And when I buy products that have them, I remove them.

    But what concerns me is a law (and I could see this happening) that forbids anyone to remove RFID tags. That would scare the crap out of me. But up until that point, I'll handle the tags myself.

    ---------
    Is Karma really that easy?
    http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=101 578&cid =8657013

  • RFID tags are WAY cool (Score:3, Funny)

    by Gr8Apes ( 679165 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @10:49AM (#8679411)

    Just think of all the ways you can screw with "data trackers". I can see it now - big batches of random RFID tags auctioned off on ebay. People walking around with little foil bags of RFIDs, periodically pulling a few new ones out, and putting others back in.

    Look, here, someone's just walked past with an 8000# stuffed hippo. Wait, here he is with a Ford F150. Wait, there he goes with a Harrier Attack Jet. Think of all the fun you could have. Especially with stores and security guards. You have RFIDs that code to their products, they hual you in for "shoplifting". Whoops. You sue - big bucks. :D

  • I don't think the Supreme Court has ironed that right out yet.
  • I think it's a good thing that our elected officials are starting to discuss things of a technical nature BEFORE they're widely used. Does anyone remember any other technologies that were examined beforehand? I don't.
  • Ban the damn things. Or get a few hacks out so we can alter what they send. That could be fun. How about a jammer that covers that frequency range?

  • Private information the fuel of MBA's. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sittingbull ( 526322 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @11:20AM (#8679704)
    I wrote a paper last summer about environmental ethics and technology for a sociology graduate class. Environmental ethics and technology? What could be the connection? Our environment and how is becoming overrun with technology for technologies sake. RFID if a fine example of the slow building of a technological mountain that we will not notice until it is too late. The fact is that technology will enframe most people so that they do not notice it anymore -- MTV generation. For example, who remembers life with only 3-channels of UHF programming, or no condensation-trails from jets in the sky? Now there is a generation that knows only 100+ channels of programming. This will happen with RFID in the next 20-30 years and RFID will be everywhere. A new generation will be born that won't know, or care even if you tell them - generation gap.

    Most likely congress will ban RFID readers as a criminal device because people will be worried about criminals reading their homes/cars and corporations will worry about bad data being introduced into there systems, so no personal RFID readers/scramblers/decoders/whatever... -- these will be made illegal due to PRIVACY/BUSINESS concerns.

    Overall technology needs a gas tank to keep running: coal/gas to power the PC's; RFID and your stuff in a databse to fuel the MBA's !

    Even if RFID is only used on money you will still be tracked. The granularity of tracking is increasing at a scary pace - maybe there is a "moore's law" somewhere in here - so where will it end? Most currency in the world will use RFID and some say that there is a U.S. 20 bill that will be cirulating shortly using RFID - so bill #434566 withdrawn at bank #12 by Joe Smith and bill #434566 used to buy CD ABC at music store XYZ.

    Story on NPR today and it does seem that the people representing the privacy side are acting nervous and the business side is confident that they will have their way. And finally there is the relentless tide of consumers who don't give a crap and that is another possible way that RFID will become ubiquitous with a 10% discount coupon attached.

    Just some random notes on RFID.
  • Why is it that everyone gets so frightened of RFID tags? It's the same fears that people had when Bar Codes were first introduced...

    Think of it this way, If you go to the Mall and walk into Abercrombie, and buy a pair of shorts today, then if you took that pair of shorts to the GAP and tried to scan the bar code, you'd end up getting an 'error' code of some sort. Why? Because GAP doesn't care about Abercrombies stuff and they don't KNOW what the code is. Why doesn't the GAP know A&F's code, and what i

  • Luddite losers. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Gray ( 5042 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @11:46AM (#8679960)
    I swear. RFID tags can be one of the most enabling technologies in history, automating zillions of tasks that otherwise slow down economy and society.

    I for one have no problem being on record for things I in fact did do and places I did go, and it's lot like that's a real threat anyway. I'd make the database myself and sell it if anybody would pay enough to make it worth it.

    As I see it, there is NO SERIOUS DOWNSIDE to RFID, it's not GM foods, it's not guns, and it's just information. Nobody gets physically hurt by tiny radio tags. They're not even especially bad for the environment.

    What we need for RFID is NO LAWS, not lots of them. The Internet will be the medium your big brother nightmares are shipped over, but I don't think anybody seriously thinks we needed to pass laws in the 80s slowing down the game because of that. Why do we suddenly need to do so now with another super enabling technology?

  • idiots (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Zed2K ( 313037 ) on Friday March 26, 2004 @12:01PM (#8680117)
    And politicians wonder why voter turn out is low? They waste their time and my tax dollars on stupid hearings and debates. Why don't they do something about the patiot act and dmca first? Those are much greater invasions of my privacy than some little electronic tag that will let stores know what kind of jeans I bought.
    • They waste their time and my tax dollars on stupid hearings and debates. Why don't they do something about the patiot act and dmca first?

      Just because there are more important things doesn't make this not important.

  • Something is definitely wrong here.

    A politician wants to learn about new technology and its implications so that intelligent policies can be put in place?

    Excuse while I watch that pig fly by....

  • I remember the uproar on CueCat a few years ago.
    Give a slow barcode reader to everyone and then watch them use it.

    What prevents a 2nd year EE student from publishing a circuit or code openly on how to read and decode the tags? Is this a DCMCA reverse engineering threat?

    Could the Prism wireless chipset which has been hacked already under Linux hit RFIDs with the right signal to get a return signal as a result?

    Hopefully Congress will force as a concession that RFIDs strings be freely available I think lik

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