All Encompassing Patents

SpicyMcHaggas writes "Looks like another bogus lawsuit over an incredibly broad patent on something that already exists. StarChamber, an online strategy and collectible card game seems to be one of the infringing factors, along with a player ranking system on the site. The patent supposedly covers any sort of ranking system that indicates a player's proficiency in said game. This sort of practice is what deters would-be great games from making it into the gaming world."

Patent craziness...

[BJZQ8]

It all gets back to lawyers...who are bored. Perhaps if we gave them shovels and told them to make a hole, they would have less time to create frivolous lawsuits. Seriously, though, it might be time to expand the definitions of barratry, and start prosecuting people...although then you end up having lawsuits about lawsuits...

Hmm...

[mgcsinc]

"This sort of practice is what deters would-be great games from making it into the gaming world."

You make this claim as if this is something that has been looming over the gaming industry for years, but frankly, it's not, and chances are there is tons of prior art to boot. Let's all remember that the USPTO's job is to deal with paperwork, not to deal with prior art; that's what the courts are for.

Re:Al Gore

[mgcsinc]

Umm... So far as I can see, Steve Forbes is not president...

Re:Case's Ladder

[AndroidCat]

You did read the article, didn't you? That "prior art" is from the same people who are suing.

We represent Mr. Sheldon Goldberg with respect to the above-identified patents, collectively referred to as "the Goldberg Patents." It has come to our attention that starchamber.net, an Internet-based service provided by Nayantara Studios, infringes the Goldberg Patents.

I could find prior art for ranking players on games over communications networks from the mid-to-late seventies.

Live in the EU? Don't just complain, take action!

[Sanity]

Over the next few months we in the EU have the opportunity to prevent the counter-productive dogma of software patents from inhibiting European software developer's ability to innovate and compete freely, but it won't be an easy fight and we need everyone that cares about this issue in the EU to contact their political representatives NOW!

For more information please look here [ffii.org].

I am doing my part [slashdot.org] - are you?

The Pit and AutoDuel

[Shiftlock]

What about The Pit and AutoDuel? I remember using the ol' 1200 baud modem to login and play these games... both of which had player rankings which were posted and transmitted from the central computer (website) to my personal computer.

Definitely before the "Internet". What year was this patent registered? It mentions the "net" as an example of game data transmission.


Never made it to the top of The Pit... but I'm not bitter (damn you Sheriff of Nottingham!!)

Re:Patents help.

[16K Ram Pack]

EU patent law is going to be much more specific.

You basically can't patent something that's just "process on the internet". You have to invent a software method that's truly original (like say a new method of indexing/compressing).

Re:Hmm...

[Teppy]

Filing a patent costs around $10,000 including fees, assuming you hire a decent lawyer. Defending a patent lawsuit starts at $100,000, and can run much higher, depending on how many expert witnesses you need to hire.

It doesn't matter how much prior art there is - plan to spend $100k to prove you're right.

This is why the patent system sucks.

Re:Patents help.

[Halo1]

EU patent law is going to be much more specific.

You basically can't patent something that's just "process on the internet". You have to invent a software method that's truly original (like say a new method of indexing/compressing).

I'm not sure what your source is, but this is completely wrong. The original proposal by the European Commission and the JURI committee for the directive on "Computer-implemented inventions" would have dragged European Patent law down to the level of US patent law as far as software patents are concerned.

The European Parliaments's version [ffii.org] however, completely bans software patents. It's this democratically constructed version of the directive (instead of the one written by the BSA and patent lawyers) that we in Europe are now defending and fighting for.

Re:Patents help.

[illuminatedwax]

Most patents are good, yes. But not software patents. At least, not in their current form. When you deal with software patents, the line between obvious and invention becomes very, very blurry. Look at Microsoft's XML patent: it is at first glance very trivial; storing data as XML is the reason XML was invented. But some of the ways that it does it aren't trivial. For example, I saw someone on here wrote that nobody writes raw base64 in XML code.

The real difference between invention and software patent is that software patents are mostly methods. An invention involves creating something non-trivial, where as methods only tell you how to use something already invented in a different manner. Examples: The telephone? Perfectly good invention. "Method for cat exercise" or "Method for maximum fun on a swing?" Not inventions at all, and should not be allowed by the Patent Office. Methods are the same thing as ideas, and you cannot patent ideas. As far as I'm concerned, patenting methods makes as much sense as patenting a recipe, which - as The Simpsons taught us - cannot be patented.

Almost all software patents should also be considered methods, because they're simply different uses of a tool that we already have: the computer. They are, if you will, different recipes for getting work done on a computer.

As far as this patent is concerned, coming up with a new ranking system is not an invention, it's an idea. I'm also fairly certain no one would be able to patent a specific method of tournament elimination, or alternate method of scoring for baseball or any other sport for that matter.

The USPO needs some serious re-vamping, sort of the opposite of the 1976(?) Copyright Act.

--Stephen

Re:Perfect Prior Art?

[JavaNPerl]

Agreed. The USCF method of ranking players is known as the ELO rating system [wikipedia.org] and was implemented by the USCF in 1960. In another example, which utilizes the internet, the Internet Chess Club [wikipedia.org] has also been ranking chess players since the late 80s.

Patents in question

[Provos]

after just a quick look at the patents as they were granted, could someone look at them as well and verify this?

Patent 5,823,879 patents a web-based internet-enabled method of playing Blackjack, as specifically stated in the patent.

Patent 6,183,366 patents a method of "
a service providing computational system for providing a first of the users with a requested corresponding instance of the informational service, wherein the instance includes a plurality of user interactions, via the network, with the service providing computational system;"

(surely there is prior art, IE Legend of the Red Dragon from peoples BBS days)

The third patent (6,264,560) basically encompasses any type of electronic card-based tournament at all, though specifically mentions blackjack, poker, craps, roulette, baccarat and pai gow in the abstract of the patent.

Can someone who has better eyes for legalese doublecheck that?

Re:Patents help.

[tgibbs]

But the auto parts patent doesn't prevent you from making your own part which does the same thing but in a slightly different way, or even the same thing but in a totally different way.

That depends upon how well the patent was written. Generally, a patent will be written to cover every way of accomplishing a particular task that the inventor and his lawyer can think of. So it may well turn out that your "different way" is also covered by the patent on the part.

Re:Patents help.

[tgibbs]

The difference comes when some thing is created that is new and non-trivial, rather than re-using something we already have.

And this is an issue for all patents, it is in no way unique for software. For instance, it is possible to obtain a "use" patent covering a new use of something that already exists (e.g. a drug).

A little about the game

[Obiwan Kenobi]

Considering I help run the poor site [scwatch.net] that got the slashdotting, I figured I'd chime in with some +1 Informative info on this "Star Chamber" game thingy.

Firstly, it is a collectable card game. All cards are virtual with no real counterparts (ala Magic: The Gathering Online), and with no plans to.

Resellers are provided to sell individual cards or "Event Tickets" which let you play in tournaments. However, to play the game online with other people, you don't have to pay anything at all: however, to play ranked games, and to play in tournaments, you must make a purchase from the official Star Chamber Card Store located here [starchamber.net]. Generally, $20 will get you on your way, but $30 will get you the best all-around set to start trading and creating effective decks to play ranked games with.

Considering this game is so small, its reviews have been fantastic. It seems most of the current player set has either heard the collective praise from Gamespot's glowing review [gamespot.com] (8.8) or Tycho's Penny Arcade [penny-arcade.com] mentions.

However, the good reviews still pour in from GameZone [gamezone.com] and Ferrago [ferrago.com].

I heard about this game about a month ago. Since that time, I can't fathom how much this game has endeared itself to me. As soon as I saw the lack of a good community website, I began to build one [scwatch.net] with the help of another community member with the same idea. Then I built a non-profit card store to help further the game, using osCommerce [oscommerce.com], located at scfans.net [scfans.net], though there are other resellers on the books, such as Gameguys [gameguys.cc] and IBK [ibkonline.com], to be completely fair.

The bottom line is, in terms of pure gameplay fun, excitement, and community involvement (the developer, Paul aka Merakon, is on almost every evening, and his support in getting SCWatch.net [scwatch.net] up and running has been stellar to say the least.

If you dig a good strategy game, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Re:Perfect Prior Art?

[MillionthMonkey]

It was called the ICS (Internet Chess Service) and I remember playing games on it and getting a rating in 1991. There was quite a ruckus when Daniel Sleator converted it to the ICC (Internet Chess Club) in 1992, a commercial operation. Previously it had been free. I remember people ranting on USENET about the coming commercialization of the Internet, and predicting that within ten years time it would cost fifty cents to ping a server. FreeICS came into being soon afterwards. It used the same client/server protocol as ICS/ICC and you could configure a client to work with either server (ICC charged for the logon). The FreeICS server software is online [sourceforge.net] with a GPL license.

Re:Patents help.

[Elektroschock]

There is a nice page of FFII UK [ffii.org.uk] that explains what can be done.