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Software Censorship Your Rights Online

Photoshop Fails At Counterfeit Prevention 712

JediDan writes "Wired reports that the 'Anti-counterfeiting provisions in the latest version of Adobe Systems' flagship product have proven little more than a speed bump, but company representatives insist that including them was the right thing to do.' Kevin Connor, Adobe's director of product management for professional digital imaging said, 'As a market leader and a good corporate citizen, this just seems like the right thing to do.' Maybe if they didn't spend R&D time and money on useless features, their products would be more affordable."
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Photoshop Fails At Counterfeit Prevention

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  • Re:YRO? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Haeleth ( 414428 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @12:55PM (#7974469) Journal
    Silly. There are thousands of possible reasons why someone might want to work with graphical images of banknotes other than counterfeiting. Blocking all those legal uses to prevent one illegal use is a violation of our rights.
  • by djupedal ( 584558 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @12:57PM (#7974511)
    Tens years ago, while working for a tech firm in Tokyo, I was around when new color copiers were delivered that supposedly had the ability to detect currency.

    Took about a minute to foil them...

  • by SEGV ( 1677 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @12:59PM (#7974537) Homepage
    I was just a few days ago pricing Photoshop CS. I need to buy it for my new business.

    It's over $800 Cdn!

    No frickin way am I paying that much. $300 would be more reasonable.

    I'm just going to get Paint Shop Pro instead. What is Adobe thinking? I want to buy Photoshop, but I'm not stupid.
  • Re:GIMP plugin? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt.nerdflat@com> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:03PM (#7974587) Journal
    Can GIMP plugins be closed-source and still be compatible with the GPL on the GIMP?
  • The Central Bank Counterfeit Deterrence Group provides the software as a black box without revealing its precise inner workings

    How comfortable would you be using a "counterfeit deterrence system" that you had no idea how it works. Makes you wonder if it also has the capability to "phone home" when someone tries to make anything remotely resembling a banknote, or whether there are back doors.

  • Re:CYA? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by -Grover ( 105474 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:05PM (#7974614)
    This is short and to the point, but exactly right.

    Adobe doesn't need to integrate 100% effective technology to prevent the duplication of currency. What they were trying to do was put in a nice little token positive to throw around if they ever got caught in a legal battle with Uncle Sam, if he ever said Adobe made it too easy to copy the currency effectively.

    It's amazing what sort of stakeholder gain you get from adding in just a nice little tidbit feature like this. It looks good to Joe user, and since obviously it's being covered in the news, you get free advertisement for how "friendly and responsible" the software is. Marketing and Social genius, if you ask me.
  • by fuzzix ( 700457 ) <flippy@example.com> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:05PM (#7974620) Journal
    Adobe didn't write the detection code. They got a 'black box' to insert into their product..

    I'm not sure how much info on this code they got but negelecting to run clipboard content through the black box before pasting seems like a large oversight. Then again, one of their concerns performance and having this code run every time there is a paste operation would probably be a significant processing overhead.
  • by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt.nerdflat@com> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:08PM (#7974642) Journal
    Does that mean software like the GIMP is illegal?
  • by microcars ( 708223 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:13PM (#7974708) Homepage
    from the article:
    "...U.S. law, which allows color reproductions of U.S. bank notes so long as the reproductions are smaller than 75 percent or larger than 150 percent of actual size. The reproduction must be one-sided, and all materials, including graphic files that were used to make the reproduction, must be destroyed afterward. "

    I used to work on Television Commercials and the Ad Agencies would all go nuts over those rules anytime we did a commercial that showed ANY US Currency (think Lottery Commercials...)

    Fairly Realistic "Fake" Money Exists that can be used for showing huge piles of Cash and it's handy when you do need to have the appearance of money blowing around all over the place.

    But sometimes the job entailed filming a SINGLE US banknote and the Ad Agency would insist we use "Fake" money because they did not want to get in trouble with the Treasury dept. Never mind that the image was going to appear on a TV screen, it existed on 35mm film before going to videotape.

    What really pissed me off one day was when -on set- the Art Director was complaining that the "Fake"Money we were using did not look "real" enough. *sigh*

    The "fake" money we were using was as real as the US Treasury allowed. There is a printing company in California that comes up with this stuff for the Film Biz and they had been through many generations of "fake" styles. Each generation looked better than the previous one.
    Apparently one of their "styles" of "fake" bills went too far and the US Treasury confiscated the printed bills AND the plates used to print them.

    I've made a bunch of "REAL" money over the years in overtime and other things thanks to the Ad Agencies confusion over the interpretation of this law.

  • by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) <teamhasnoi AT yahoo DOT com> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:18PM (#7974779) Journal
    (Note: I posted most of this in the last PS story.) Concerning the money check - Any checking is annoying and unacceptable as it assumes you are a criminal. Counterfeiters will *absoulutely* be able to get around this.(Done!) Photoshop 7 doesn't check for this AFAIK, and that will run on a G5. All Adobe has done is inconvience users, assume that they are all criminals, hurt the performance of their product, and taken it upon themseves to police what their customers scan.

    Taken to extremes, will Adobe build in Child Pornography checking? Or scan your hard drives for incriminating pictures or files? Where does it end? And why is something I buy for editing images checking and deciding what I can do with the files I create?

    At least, this could open Adobe up to legal problems - if their checks fail and someone is 'allowed' to do what should have been 'prevented'.

    All in all, it sucks. If I wanted a counterfeit currency checker, I'd buy a 4.95 felt tip pen.

  • by forevermore ( 582201 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:26PM (#7974912) Homepage
    Why would 99% of legitimate users ever need to scan a bill?

    Maybe not 99%, but I can see a need for graphic artists to use currency (or pieces of currency) in graphics projects. Heck, how is the treasury department supposed to advertise their new peach-colored bills if their graphic artists can't load the images into Photoshop to create the ads in the first place? It's not like people have much choice about which graphics program to use - GIMP is getting better, but it's still nowhere near as powerful as Photoshop.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:26PM (#7974913)
    I'd really like to see a company create something like a "DRM Helmet". If you've ever seen "The man in the iron mask" you can get an idea of what I'm talking about.

    These helmets would be organic, and grow as a human grows. They would be locked on the human head at birth, and use a digital rights infrastructure to determine whether the human has the right to breath, view the sky, drink water, eat food, etc.

    For the period from birth into the early teens, a human would be allowed substantial freedoms, such as drinking water, eating food, viewing the sky...all for little or no cost.

    The parents of a child could pay into a corporate account to allow their child access to better food or water, or travel to pristine "corporate reservations" where magnificent views and vistas are sold to the wealthy. This provides an incentive to parents to support and enhance the corporate model--keeping your manager happy would result in an improved existence for your children. For example, parents looked upon favorably by the corporate oligarchy might be allowed into a lottery, the winners of which would have their children's viewing rights upgraded to higher quality textbooks and their access improved such that they can use higher quality software and tutorials.

    After a human reaches their teens, the rights to quality food and water would be erroded...unless they find a way to increase the wealth of the corporate entities. Increasing the wealth of shareholders or board executives substantially would allow the human access to higher quality food and water, and the right to (for example) go to a museum and view artwork, or attend a concert and hear undistorted music.

    The top tier of humans contributing to corporate wealth, say the top 1% of the population, could actually enter a lottery in which their family could travel to a national park and be released from their helmets entirely for the span of a week or so.

    This plan would greatly improve the living wages of corporate board members and shareholders. It would also insure that only those persons who have earned the right to see the sky, or eat quality food, and view historical or IP restricted items of interest are allowed to do so.

    Another bonus is population control and criminal punishment. The lowest economic performers could be denied access to reproductive rights--for example, a "DRM Chastity Belt". This would prevent them from spreading the "laziness gene". The belt could also have a mechanism to apply electrical shocks to the wearer--this would allow punishment for minor offenses, such as offending a corporate shareholder.

    Major offenders, such as those who critisize or or satirize the corporate oligarchy, would have their access to food/water/air cut off for a period, at least until their life signs dwindled to some extent. Repeat offenders could have their access cut off permanently. Such a model relieves the oligarchy from having to provide for prisons, gas chambers and other useless expenses.

    This type of infrastructure would slowly but surely improve the lives of the upper tier oligarchy, while culling the poorest economic performers in the population. Over time, one would expect the highest tier to have their quality of life enhanced at a near exponential rate, while lowest economic performers (and their descendants) would be removed from the gene pool entirely.
  • Prices (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hamsterboy ( 218246 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:30PM (#7974964)
    Maybe if they didn't spend R&D time and money on useless features, their products would be more affordable.
    Many people have the misconception that the price of something is usually related to how much it costs to produce it. While the price charged is usually greater than the cost to produce (well, post-dotcom-boom, anyway), that is where the association ends.

    Software (and to a lesser extent, hardware) prices are based on percieved value. When Microsoft charges $400 for Office, do you really believe that R&D cost them $350 for every copy? The upfront cost was in the tens of millions, but the cost to print the CD, box and manual is right around $5. Does that mean that we should be paying $10 for office? After all, a 50% profit margin is pretty good, right?

    Adobe doesn't charge $650 for PS-CS because their costs are high. They charge that much because that's what the market will bear. That's what it seems to be worth.

    -- Hamster

  • Re:Price (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Joe Decker ( 3806 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:30PM (#7974965) Homepage
    Not for my work it doesn't. I want to like the GIMP, I really do. But it's nowhere near the color management and workflow features that I need. Now that I'm switching from drum-scanned film to images taken with a digital SLR (Canon 1Ds, 11MP), Photoshop CS's raw camera support is a need, not a want, Canon's own software for RAW conversion is useless.

    What you say may very well be true for you. I want to like the GIMP, I don't like paying $600 when I don't have to. But, month after month, I keep on finding that for my business Photoshop is worth every penny.

  • Re:YRO? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by edwdig ( 47888 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:34PM (#7975005)
    On the other hand, while almost everyone I know uses photoshop, almost no one I know has actually paid for it, or could afford it. Obviously their crime prevention abilities are somewhat limited :)

    Do you think Adobe really cares? You download Photoshop at home and learn how to use it. You go in to work, and your company gets some new task which requires image editing. What are you going to tell your boss to buy?

    Also, for the most part, an illegal copy of Photoshop usually does not mean one less copy of Photoshop sold, but rather one less copy sold of Paint Shop or something else in that price range. That helps Adobe's market share figures.
  • by cherokee158 ( 701472 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:39PM (#7975074)
    Does CS stand for Counterfeit Stopper? Customer Scalper? What? What's wrong with numbers all of the sudden? Software is priced like cars so we should start naming them like cars? What?

    I've been using Photoshop since version 2.5 (And actually started paying for it by version 4. Those present who seem to feel 600 dollars is a reasonable price for software need their head examined. It doesn't matter if it makes economic sense to the company...it makes no sense to the end user. It used to be that a graphic designer needed a ruler, an exacto knife and some whiteout to make a living. Now he needs several thousand dollars worth of equipment and software. That's not progress, that's larceny. But I digress... ) and I must say that PS CS is the most disappointing upgrade I have seen. All your money buys you is a bunch of DRM stuff and one or two token tweaks. PC users even have to deal with remote activation. Skip this upgrade if you can.

    While I am ranting about PS upgrades, WTF is up with the line tool? It used to be to draw a line was a one step process. After several upgrades worth of improvements, it is now a three or four step process.

    If ever-evolving file formats and OS's weren't such an issue, I think I would still be perfectly happy with Photoshop 4.

    BTW, bonus points to anyone who knows what company originally wrote Photoshop...
  • by j-turkey ( 187775 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:40PM (#7975079) Homepage
    Adobe doesn't even know how it works (it is a black box), not to mention having wasted any effort on it.

    I see where you're coming from, but in my experience, development doesn't work like that. Nobody just drops some mystery code into their product and releases it (can you imagine this code breaking some other feature and Adobe tells their customers "well, the Fed. told us this code would work...sorry 'bout that"?). Features like this are typically worked into design specs and engineering specs. It also needs to be integrated into their codebase (even if they were just a bunch of precompiled methods) -- it needs to interface with their software somehow, no? Code like this also has to be tested, which can be a pretty major undertaking. Furthermore, for every change that's made to any part of the code, features like this (and all others) are usually tested in regression.

    While Adobe may not have spent time developing the code itself, I'm fairly certain that this code adds to the bottom line of development costs...which also adds to the bottom line of the product cost to the end user (unless they tack that expenditure onto some other product).

    In the end, we all pay for a "feature" that we don't want...even though we do pay for it, we'll never notice (unless we're counterfitters, in which case, we'll either use a different product, or find a way to easily circumvent the "feature"). It's downright lame and it's not their job to enforce the law. Besides, what's illegal about scanning in a $20 bill? I can think of 10 legitimate reasons to do just that right now.

    What's next, anti kiddie-porn protection? At least the code will actually prevent a law from being broken (unless you're taking baby pictures and your kids like to be nude...it happens).

  • Re:YRO? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Asic Eng ( 193332 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @02:02PM (#7975360)
    It seems that banknotes are quite frequently used as graphical elements in advertisments etc. Since Photoshop seems to target the professional market I can see how that would be annoying for said professionals.
  • Re:GIMP plugin? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by BeBoxer ( 14448 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @02:02PM (#7975366)
    What I want is the Gimp plugin that adds the "Eurion Constellation" or whatever it is to my picture so that Photoshop won't open it. I think it would be quite funny to start trying to put the magic watermark as many places as possible, making Photoshop break as often as possible.

    I personally have zero respect for companies that go out of their way to cripple their product in one way or another. Software has enough unintentional bugs without the developers deciding to break it on purpose.
  • yes They can (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Nf1nk ( 443791 ) <nf1nk.yahoo@com> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @02:07PM (#7975418) Homepage
    Plugins are considered a stand alone program, and as long as you distubute it as a plugin without distrubitng Gimp you can release a closed source plugin, and you can charge what you like for it, much as macromedia has released a closed source flash plugin for Mozilla (that I don't use)
  • Re:What R&D money? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by tjcoyle ( 539228 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @02:14PM (#7975500) Homepage

    Right on the money :)

    Considering that the TSA won't allow me to carry a miniscule pocket knife keychain along with me while traversing my country for the purpose of visiting relatives, I'd agree that yes, it is a bit like banning knives because they could be dangerous.

    Heck, I've even just discovered that *lighters* are dangerous weapons, either that, or the anti-smoking lobby couldn't pass up the Richard Reid angle on keeping evil smokers from lighting up between flights

    But hey, we're just a bunch of hunter-gatherers functioning in a completely alien environment, trying to protect ourselves from the non-linear behavior that results. Our solutions often appear as non-linear as the problems they attempt to solve, which is fairly unsurprising.

    Sigh, humanity.

  • by Trigun ( 685027 ) <<xc.hta.eripmelive> <ta> <live>> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @02:33PM (#7975744)
    1) Remove the strip from all the bills in your posession. This can be done with a razor blade. Just ask a libertarian :)

    2) Pass them in dimly lit stores, change machines, anywhere where they won't be suspected.

    3) Counterfit old style bills and pass them with real, new style bills

    I've been saying for a long time that the metallic strip has been a non-measure for a long time. Too easily removed, too cumbersome to check each time.

    You don't want to be a master counterfitter, you just want to be able to pass some bills quickly and fool most people. You don't want to make your money being an artist, you want to do it by selling lithographs of good artists work.
  • by Katharine ( 303681 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @02:40PM (#7975822)
    I remember when I was a kid, Mad Magazine got into trouble for printing a joke $5 bill with Alfred E. Newman's picture. Though the same size as a real bill, it didn't look real and wasn't very detailed -- it was like a cartoon drawing-- and was printed on magazine stock. I don't remember if it was single-sided or double-sided, but there is no way a person would have accepted it.

    However . . . some people discovered that it would pass as a $5 in change machines. The treasury department wasn't very pleased about it, took Mad's plates and made them promise not to do it again.
  • Why it was done. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bluephone ( 200451 ) <grey@nOspAm.burntelectrons.org> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @03:05PM (#7976171) Homepage Journal
    Many government mints work with special versions of Photoshop and Illustrator that Adobe creates custom for their uses. It has features such as massive resolution handling capabilities, zoom functions up to 16,000% or 32,000% (as opposed to 1,200%), special color handling abilities (for color shifting inks, and such, to make it easier to work with these materials), and more. They get paid quite well for these versions and features, and so the addition of code co-developed by these banking institutions and governments with Adobe was not a financial decision, but a performance one. Once the performance penalties were solved, they included it. I'm sure Adobe knew it would be easily circumvented, but it makes life slightly more difficult for counterfeiters, and it satisfied the governments (who really aren't good at grasping anti-anything circumvention techniques).
  • by Pionar ( 620916 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @03:05PM (#7976182)
    When I was a much younger person (about 5 years ago, heh) and i was in college, one of the guys on my same floor got a new, high-end printer. If i remember correctly, it was an HP. He was a photography major, so it made sense for him to have it. Well, my roomate and I, being the geeks that we were (and still are) were so impressed with it that we brought a bunch of paper over and were printing everything in sight. We got around to scanning money (we were college students, so it was $1s and $5s) and were so impressed on how accurately it lined up the two sides (it was a double-sided printer) that we decided to see if the coke machine down the hall accepted them. It did, and we got free coke (well, like 3 cents per page) for the next week, until for some reason the coke machine was removed and the rumor was that it was because someone had been giving it fake money. We really did it more for the fun and the satisfaction of knowing it could be done than the coke, however.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @03:18PM (#7976337)
    as for US currency...

    actually getting the paper is the EASIEST part...open your wallet and grab all the one dollar bills...Viola! tons of paper...now all you need to do is wash out the ink.... and print a 20$ image on your paper :)

    actually the security features such as the strip embedded in the paper, the small print, watermarks and the actual ink which are tougher to duplicate.
  • by Pionar ( 620916 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @03:31PM (#7976496)
    Oh, trust me, we did get found out, and the SS did come "pay us a visit". They laid out what the consequences were, which i'm not afraid to admit scared the shit out of me, and we assured them it was just a one-time prank. They decided not to press charges since it was a small-time deal and we didn't seem to be serious about it. I never found out who squealed, though the little "talk" did discourage me from trying it again.
  • The real issue (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sjames ( 1099 ) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @04:10PM (#7977065) Homepage Journal

    I can certainly see many legitimate reasons. I've made novelty money before. They certainly wouldn't fool anyone (by design).

    The problem with any technology with this is that it removes law from the realm of human decision and instead slavishly enforces a limited and unmovable interpretation of the law. The result is that a number of perfectly legal and ethical actions are rendered impossible. It is only defects in the software that allows it to be bypassed at all.

    For every prohibition out there, there probably exists some unforseen exception. When those happen, we need to apply human judgement, not simple rulesets.

    For most of us, this particular case won't be a serious problem. However, the more accepted this sort of thing becomes, the more likely each of us is to come across one or more cases where something like this turns the simple and legal into the impossible.

    Even worse, eventually we will see this sort of thing used to end-run the constitution. With the DMCA, it can be argued that we have already seen a case of that.

  • Re:Economics (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @09:14PM (#7980656)

    "Maybe if people stopped paying for it and turned to alternatives it would be more affordable."

    There aren't many alternatives. At least, not at a certain level of requirements. The real alternatives to Photoshop for professional graphic artists are scarce, and they tend to be more expensive.

    The Gimp is great if your output is, well, what the typical The Gimp user needs.

    A photo artist once took the time to set me straight on this count, and *showed* me why he needed PS, why The Gimp was good, but not sufficient for his work. I agreed with his assessment.

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