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CD Copy Protection Case Goes to Court 228

Posted by Hemos from the moving-the-cogs-of-justice dept.
grungie writes "From The Register: Belgian consumer watchdog Test-Achats (Test Aankoop), known for its crusade against Nokia's "unsafe batteries", starts the new year with a fresh assault on the music industry. It is taking the music giants EMI, Sony, BMG Music and Universal Music to court for installing anti-piracy systems on their audio CDs. This is excellent news! I was less than happy when I had to use cdparanoia to add The Foo Fighters' latest to my iTunes collection. I used to live in Belgium: Test Achat is serious about the protection of consumer rights. Let's hope other countries follow suit." You can read the stories in French as well as Dutch.
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CD Copy Protection Case Goes to Court More

CD Copy Protection Case Goes to Court

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  • I can see the same thing happening in Norway, as a lot of people are very upset about so-called copy protection disallowing the consumer to play their CDs in any old player or on the computer. Forcing a consumer to play their legally-owned CDs on "approved" players is in violation of Norwegian law. Furthermore, tiny print saying "copy protected" in any other language than Norwegian is also against the law.

    Already as early as 2002, EFN [www.efn.no] (Norway's version of EFF) has launched campaigns against the purchase of certain types of CDs [www.efn.no] as well as offering assistance [www.efn.no] in pressing charges against record producers whose CDs damage CD and/or DVD players or computers.

    By the way, the verdict against DVD-Jon is NOT going to be appealed!

    • Re:Go Belgium! (I hope this happens here as well) (Score:5, Informative)

      by MoonFog ( 586818 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:09AM (#7880141)
      By the way, the verdict against DVD-Jon is NOT going to be appealed!
      This is a copyright issue, so it is on topic. Here's [aftenposten.no] a link.

      I remember there being a public outcry in Norway when certain cd's would not play on computers etc. I was expecting to see this appear in a Norwegian court, but a Belgian one will do!
      • I remember there being a public outcry in Norway when certain cd's would not play on computers etc. I was expecting to see this appear in a Norwegian court, but a Belgian one will do!

        I have a feeling that it eventually will appear in a Norwegian court. There is more than enough support for it to happen, and a good PR campaign by EFN and consumer rights groups will bring even more support. I think the "delay" (i.e. why it hasn't been in court already) has been due to the whole DVD-Jon thing. But now that that's over, we can move on to other things.

    • Re:Go Belgium! (I hope this happens here as well) (Score:5, Insightful)

      by pvt_medic ( 715692 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:11AM (#7880148)
      While I say good for those countries, Here in the US, we are less fortunate. Theses companies are full of ULA and all sorts of legal mumble jumble that protect them and let them do what ever they want.

      Hopefully people in this country will eventually join up in a large enough grouping and say enough is enough. Its really pathetic when you have organizations that tell you how to do things and we just bow our heads and go ok... we surrender.

      Now of course before this gets replied to a million times, these comments refer to the general public and not exactly the community that will be reading this.

      • Re:Go Belgium! (I hope this happens here as well) (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        That is because corporations pay the puppets we call elected officials to pass whatever laws they want. This is called a "lobby". Lobbyists grease everyone up.

        I am sure Norway will get there one day. Corruption is multilingual.

        l8,
        AC

      • "Enough is enough"? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Androgynous Coward ( 13443 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:27AM (#7880610)
        Only way to let the record companies know "enough is enough" is to stop buying any of their CDs. This means copy-protected ones and, if it persists, just stop buying any CD at all.

        I mean, it's not the end of the world if you do not have the latest Foo Fighters so speak with the almighty dollar because in the end that is all that will work with these guys. Curbing your spending will lead to a sales dip as they release these copy-protected CDs and, as everyone becomes accustomed, sales will eventually return close or above to their previous levels. The record companies outlined this happening already. They outline all these possible scenarios when releasing new technology that affects the consumer. They're not stupid.

        So bite the bullet and stop buying. I did.

        I'm personally back on the wagon regarding going to movie theaters. I'm sick of the garbage put out but started going to the Matrix and Lord of the Ring movies. Now that they're finished the theaters will not get a dime of my money for some mediocre crap. I went 2 years without going to a theater last time around and will go longer this time. Opportunistic movie executives will probably blame the dip on P2P.

    • Re:Go Belgium! (I hope this happens here as well) (Score:4, Insightful)

      by -noefordeg- ( 697342 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:11AM (#7880153)
      "By the way, the verdict against DVD-Jon is NOT going to be appealed!"

      I don't see how this is such a good thing. Wouldn't be better to see the corporations be trashed in High Court instead of now, just letting if pass, ready to be picked up with someone else and at a more convenient time.

      • Re:Go Belgium! (I hope this happens here as well) (Score:4, Interesting)

        by MoonFog ( 586818 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:14AM (#7880171)
        He didn't say whether or not this was a good thing. IMHO this is bad. He won so clearly it would be great to let the supreme court set precendence (it doesn't work like in the U.S, but it's not that different). Clearly the prosecution realized that there is no way they would benefit from taking it to the supreme court.

        • Re:Go Belgium! (I hope this happens here as well) (Score:5, Informative)

          by way2trivial ( 601132 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:45AM (#7880323) Homepage Journal
          No, the prosecution realized under current laws they would lose...

          http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/security/story/0, 2000048600,20282218,00.htm
          Even before the Norway case was filed, however, entertainment industry lobbyists had been pressing lawmakers in that country and elsewhere to enact tougher copyright laws, modeled on controversial U.S. legislation that makes it easier for authorities to win prison terms for people who crack encryption schemes or distribute cracking tools.

      • "Wouldn't be better to see the corporations be trashed in High Court instead of now..."

        Perhaps, but I wouldn't bet somebody's quality of life over it. If he loses, it's midly bad for us, but for him it's the shits. Can't say I'd feel good about him serving jail time or paying fines for the rest of his life. I'd rather a deep-pocketed corporation be the defendent.

  • Don't like it... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sarojin ( 446404 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:05AM (#7880115)
    don't buy it.
    • Easier said than done.

      Me: Is this Kings of Leon CD copy protected?
      Shop: Yeah - it wont play on a PC
      Me: Shit - got anything that will?
      Shop: White Stripes will play - CD is even white like the KoL one
      Me: That'll have to do then
      Shop: White Stripes are shit though - but hey - at least it'll play!
      Me: Yeah - lifes a bitch

    • Double Edged Sword (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Jerk City Troll ( 661616 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:17AM (#7880185) Homepage

      The trouble is, if we rightfully boycott a poor and intentionally crippled product, the record companies will blame their declining sales on P2P networks. The government will then step in to provide them a corporate crutch and start putting people using the future of media distribution in jail.

      It's an ugly situation. The best thing we can do is help indy music sales and make sure they report their numbers. We need to make it clear that the sales of the Big Five are declining while others are increasing. Maybe the government will notice the signifigance of that.

      Then again, maybe not.

      • Re:Double Edged Sword (Score:4, Insightful)

        by AKnightCowboy ( 608632 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:10AM (#7880489)
        The trouble is, if we rightfully boycott a poor and intentionally crippled product, the record companies will blame their declining sales on P2P networks. The government will then step in to provide them a corporate crutch and start putting people using the future of media distribution in jail.

        Then the best thing we can do is boycott P2P networks and help them get banned so that the RIAA can't use them as a crutch in their fight against declining music sales. As it is they have a very good argument. I, personally, haven't bought any music since the 1990's and download any songs from Kazaa that catch my ear on the radio. If Kazaa and others were gone I would probably be forced to buy the music instead.

        • If Kazaa and others were gone I would probably be forced to buy the music instead.

          This is the current attitude of the RIAA, and it's breaindead. People were copying songs DECADES before the internet was even invented. If the P2P networks all shut down, people will just srat encoding songs off of the radio and TV stations. Hell, my digital satelitte MuchMusic signal is as good or better than any CD.

        • If Kazaa and others were gone I would probably be forced to buy the music instead.
          I love having friends like this - "Hey, can I borrow your CDs for a minute?"

      • Here's a good place to start:

        Cool music from a guy you've never heard of. [johnpbarton.com]

        CD's are RIAA free and not copy protected!

        /shameless plug

    • Re:Don't like it... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by bryhhh ( 317224 )
      I received two audio CD's with so called 'copy protection' on them for christmas. I wasn't able to play the CDs on the PC without lots of skipping, but I was able to rip them (perfectly - as far as I can tell) without any problems or specialist software.

      After reading about how copy protection works [disctronics.co.uk], I can only assume that I must be lucky enough to own a drive [google.com] that can read these disks?

    • Re:Don't like it... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Sloppy ( 14984 ) * on Monday January 05, 2004 @11:38AM (#7881143) Homepage Journal
      Part of the problem is the fraud aspect. Some people don't know they're buying this crap. They think they're buying music CDs.

      If the industry didn't package these things like CDs and make them look like CDs, then "don't like it it, don't buy it" would make a lot more sense.

      Imagine: you go to the store to buy some flour so you can bake some bread. There's an isle with a bunch of sacks of flour. You go to that isle, and pick up a sack that appears to contain flour (but you don't read all the printing on the back of the sack) and buy it. Then you get home, make your bread, and it comes out all wrong. You look at your "flour" sack and find out -- oops -- it's actually rat poison, not flour. Ok, now technically this is your fault, and you should have paid more attention to what you were buying. But why did the store have this crap on the same isle as the flour, mixed in with the flour sacks, in a sack that looks almost exactly like a flour sack (except for some fine printing on the back)? It smacks of fraud and deception.

      The reason these discs are made to appear like CDs, is that if they were marketed as not CDs and segregated to a different part of the store (much like most stores don't have the cassette tapes and LPs mixed in with the CDs), then people wouldn't buy them. The motive for their fraud is that they are attempting to avoid marketplace accountability. "Don't like it, don't buy it" is exactly the strategy that they are trying to circumvent.

    • Re:Don't like it... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by theLOUDroom ( 556455 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @11:57AM (#7881283)
      It's more serious than that.

      Technically these "CDs" are NOT actual CDs. They do not conform to red book standards. Philips is not happy about this. [wired.com]

      This is like me going to an auto parts store and buying pre-mixed antifreeze, then finding out that it's just plain water. Sure it will work okay in some instances, but it's not what it was advertised to be and it's inferior.

      The should be able to copy-protect their discs all they want, but they should be called something other than "compact discs". They are deliberately misleading the consumer about what they are buying.

      Wouldn't you be pissed if:
      1. You bought a "CD", brought it home and it didn't work.
      2. You returned it, got another one and it didn't work.
      3. You went back to the store and they told you that they will not give refunds on opened CDs, DVDs, games, etc.

        You just spend fifteen buck on something that wasn't what they said it was, doesn't work, and the store is refusing to take it back!

      • Re:Don't like it... (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Firethorn ( 177587 )
        Then you repeat step 2 until they're forced to give you a different title or a refund because they don't have any more. Had to do this once for a computer game where they messed up the copy-protection so it wouldn't play on ANYBODY'S computer. Of course, I told the clerks that none of them were going to work, because they were all from the same run, and it was the master that was bad.
      • It's not specifically that they won't play on a PC. Some of them are autorun CD's that install Windows drivers without asking to prevent you from reading the CD on the computer. They don't care if their "copy protection" schemes cause problems unrelated to their task. That sort of disregard for their customers earns them a class action suit.
    • The problem is that my not buying Pink's latest is that the record company is coing to "count" my non-purchase as a loss to "piracy". And they are going to count my purchase of Let It Be... Naked (which uses Muck-ro-vision) as an argument that copy-protected CDs sell.

      It's a win-win scenario for them in their argumentation.

  • Press releases (Score:5, Informative)

    by hankwang ( 413283 ) * on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:07AM (#7880122) Homepage
    Test-achats's original press release in French [test-achats.be], Dutch [test-aankoop.be], and Google's translation to English [google.com].
    • The translation of the press release makes for mangled reading but if I follow it correctly the law is such that you are permitted to make private copies of CDs you've bought. There's also some vague reference to a "tax" on equipment for copying, but I don't think that's ever been implemented.

      Belgium is a small country, so what impact is this likely to have on major record labels? They seem hell-bent on continuing this practice, and I can't see them doing Belgian-specific pressings to get around this.

      • The translation of the press release makes for mangled reading but if I follow it correctly the law is such that you are permitted to make private copies of CDs you've bought...

        Fair Use, in other words, with a levy on media to support the music industry (we have this in Canada, too). My French is somewhat better than Google's, but they got that part right.

        Belgium is a small country, so what impact is this likely to have on major record labels?

        Thin edge of the wedge - which can work both ways. Leg

  • About the Nokia battery test (Score:5, Informative)

    by Cee ( 22717 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:08AM (#7880130)
    Test-Ankoop claimed that there was a risk that Nokia's batteries could explode at random. Later, it came out that they actually tested non-brand batteries... So they had to do their test again [yahoo.com], and they found out that nothing was wrong with Nokia's original batteries.

    • The batteries in question were branded as Nokia batteries but Nokia claimed that they were pirated (in the non murdering and pillaging sense) products. Later tests with batteries provided by Nokia proved them safe.

    • Yeah, but not even Nokia's engineers could see the difference between original Nokia batteries and the "fake" batteries without opening them up, and official Nokia-dealers were selling these batteries as original Nokia, so Nokia isn't entirely in the clear...

      • Re:About the Nokia battery test (Score:4, Insightful)

        by gl4ss ( 559668 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:58AM (#7880406) Homepage Journal
        well, nokia is in the clear, the retailers who didn't check where their supply was coming from aren't.

        a lot of piracy is such, brand piracy(making a product similar to a brand product cheaply and then selling it off with the brand products reputation, adidas, nike & all suffer from this). most of the piracy products caught in Finnish-Russian border for example are such(video game controllers, caps, jeans, tobacco..) products - products that would be legal if they weren't branded as some big companys products when they aren't(certifications aside). this is among the most dangerous piracy as well as the products sometimes aren't even safe..
    • Batteries supplied by Nokia itself directly to TestAankoop were found not to explode. Batteries sold by Nokia dealers, who claimed them to be Nokia batteries, with every outward appearance of Nokia batteries DID explode, but Nokia determined these batteries to be forged third party parts..

      So far, the only fact that has been determined by independent experts is that some Nokia-branded batteries explode, and others don't. The claims that the ones that do explode are fakes, and the ones that don't are the sam

  • Probability of Success? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by LordoftheFrings ( 570171 ) <[ac.tsefgarf] [ta] [llun]> on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:08AM (#7880135) Homepage
    I entirely agree with the cause that is being supported, but to be honest, who really thinks that this legal battle will be won by the underdog? The Big 5 record companies have practically unlimited funds, and the recent RIAA suing campaign shows that they aren't afraid to use it the most brutal way they can. What chances does a small albeit well-known group have against them?
  • ..here in India which is notorious for not having a decent return policy. I think, for music CDs almost all countries won't accept a return.
    It would be nice to return the RIAA fsckers an opened music CD, in these cases

    • EU does have sensible return policy (Score:5, Interesting)

      by feepcreature ( 623518 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:22AM (#7880217) Homepage
      In the UK, for example, goods have to be fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality or you have a right to a refund.

      If you buy something from the CD rack of your music shop, and it won't play in your CD playing equipment, you are entitled to a refund.

      In fact, buying such a CD, then returning it for just that reason, provides "valuable" feedback to the labels on how acceptable / workable copy-protection isn't. (Maybe we should all go buy the stuff, then return it to send a message?)

      • A day of action would be great. Everyone pick one band, clear the shelves of their CD single on a Friday and then return them all the next week.

        The story could make big news because if enough people did it, you could push that band up the charts and create a distortion. Particularly, do it in a week when there's a big chart battle like Victoria Beckham, but pick someone completely different.

      • In PL it's all the same and some of my friends started to call the price printed on CD ,,the deposit''.

        They buy any CD they want (with c/p warnings), rip it on the computer without a problem. Then they bring it back to the shop saying that it won't play on their (mp3)discman/car audio/home theater and demand a refund.

        Always works.

        rrw

  • Also in France (Score:5, Informative)

    by dago ( 25724 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:10AM (#7880143)
    Other french consumers association already did the same in France ... and win !
    (see here [afjv.com], for example).

    • which probably did diddly: I checked a few records while looting my local FNAC (well, they retaliated on my piece of blue plastic), and sure enough, lots of recently released stuff is still copy protected. I didn't specifically look for EMI, though. MC Solaar's latest is allegedly equipped with a particularly nasty copy protection scheme, but I finally left it there.
      <p>
      On the plus side, so far I've never seen a CD even attempt to resist the usual "cdparanoia -B" I submit them to. I'm actually curious
    • Here is a quick and dirty translation of the link given by parent, since it's in French.

      CD copy protection condamned.
      TGI, Nanterre, 2003/09/02
      (TGI is Tribunal de Grande Instance, the french court for those cases)

      Facts
      Due to "plaintes" (basically people complaining and/or filling suit) on the impossibility to play some CD on certain car cd players, the UFC-Que Choisir association (UFC is an association created to defend custumers) filled suit against EMI Music France, producer of said CD.

      Decisi

  • stopping copy-protection doesn't grant fair use (Score:5, Interesting)

    by feepcreature ( 623518 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:17AM (#7880187) Homepage
    Even if these misguided "copy-protection" measures are headed off, and it remains technically possible to play all music CDs on PCs and the like, it would be nice to have sensible "fair use" rights as well.

    The UK seems to ban making backup copies of music you've bought, and doesn't permit you to copy your own CDs so you can listen to them on your car cassette player. Allegedly. What's the rest of Europe / the world like? Here's an area where the US has some sensible rules.

    Yes - I know you can ignore the law...

  • watchdog... and a good one (Score:5, Informative)

    by selderrr ( 523988 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:21AM (#7880205) Journal
    Being belgian, I can attest that Test-aankoop has a valuable function here. Ther can really scare companies, and have more than once forced companies into admitting faults. The fault itself is not necessarely fixed, but the public humiliation in a small country (with only a handfull national TV channels) is enough to scare them.
    And being totally independent, they can take some serious badass attitude !

    They also have a pretty good website [testaankoop.be] (in dutch & french) that accomagnies their monthly magazine. Each edition has at least a few product comparisions that many many belgians respect. When we bought our childrens car-seats, we followed their advice, even tho their top-pick was 15% more expensive.
    They also have a pretty big library of 'target prices' for many products.

  • Why are you people STILL buying CDs? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by InterruptDescriptorT ( 531083 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:23AM (#7880227) Homepage
    Look, it's been said before, I'll say it again now, and I'll continue to say it until things change.

    Stop purchasing industry CDs!

    Your purchase of music released on a label affiliated with the RIAA indirectly supports these efforts which most of you agree is capricious, unfair, predatory and illegal. And yet all I see are a bunch of people who complain about copy protection, the myriad subpoenas being sent by the RIAA standing in line down at the local Best Buy (which is another evil altogether) because they have to have the new friggin' Puddle Of Mudd (or is that Dumm?) CD.

    If you really want to send the industry a message, don't buy CDs on labels that are part of the RIAA. Look at places like CD Baby [cdbaby.com], which are not affiliated with the RIAA, offer 2-minute high-quality preview of many of the songs on each CD, sell non copy-protected CDs, and offer all the rights that you should expect in your CDs. Yes, you can rip the CD and download it to your MP3 player, and no one is going to come and hunt you down like the dog you are merely for exercising your fair use rights.

    It really is going to take a big effort on all our parts to get this message out. But while people mindlessly go down to the local box retailer to buy another copy protected CD from some industry teat-sucking band, you're really not helping things.

    I noticed it was a Foo Fighters' CD that the story poster bought. How about, 'It's times like these you need to think again...'?
    • And don't buy music from most online music download services either ( that means iTunes , too ), as the RIAA gets ( as per Slashot reporting ) at least 70% of the purchase price as its cut.

      They and their member labels probably have some other income streams we can cut off as well. If you know of one, please chime in. :)

    • Stop Illegally Sharing/Downloading Too! (Score:5, Informative)

      by goldspider ( 445116 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:08AM (#7880480) Homepage
      While the parent is 100% dead-on correct, not buying CDs will only work if the RIAA doesn't have ammunition to blame decreased sales on P2P file-sharing.

      Whether or not they ARE in fact losing money due to P2P is irrelevant. All they have to do is 'convince' a congress-monkey that they're right. If fewer and fewer of their songs are present on P2P networks, the less of a case they have.

    • Your purchase of music released on a label affiliated with the RIAA indirectly supports these efforts which most of you agree is capricious, unfair, predatory and illegal.

      You must be new around here. On odd days, we all agree that the MPAA and RIAA are evil, obsolete business models, etc etc, and must die. On even days, we salivate over the next in the Matrix or LoTR (or whatever) franchise.

      Don't worry, you'll get used to it.

    • i call BS (Score:3, Insightful)

      by koekepeer ( 197127 )
      so you disagree with the system, and create an alternative, and expect the rest of the world to agree with that?

      i happen to like some of the "industry teat-sucking bands"! in your scheme i'm not allowed to support them out of idealism?

      i agree that the system sucks. but i like music, not only indie music.
    • People often overlook this option, even though there are still usually at least one good store in most areas that deals in used music.

      That way you can actually pay for your goods, yet still not give a red cent of your money to the label.

      The band/artist does not get any either, but that's no different than buying new anyway.

      This is, of course, assuming that your goal is to not reward the RIAA, yet still buy music honestly.

    • Hell yes. And one more thing - let the record companies, and more particularly your favorite artists, know what you've decided and why. No, I'm under no illusions about how much difference my letters to UMG, Sony, BMI etc. make in and of themselves. Efforts like this only make sense in the aggregate. So I send my letter and take every opportunity to remind you to send yours.

      Many have noted the music industry giants will rush to blame their economic failures on ANYTHING besides their own incompetance.

    • But if the band I like is a RIAA band member, what can I do? Oh, according to you, just go buy that CDBaby label, which sorta sounds like them.

  • Installing software (Score:5, Insightful)

    by quantum bit ( 225091 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:35AM (#7880269) Journal
    Didn't some of those "copy-protected" CDs supposedly try to install drivers on Win32-based platforms that prevent you from ripping certain CDs?

    Granted, the user shouldn't be running under an admin account (or get infected with all sorts of random crapware), but still. If that's the case I'd like to see them get smacked down for installing software without the user's consent...

  • "Consumers" should have no rights. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dada21 ( 163177 ) <adam.dada@gmail.com> on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:36AM (#7880277) Homepage Journal
    Everyone should have equal rights which are based almost exclusively on the right to private property and the right to protect it.

    The physical music medium is something owned by someone else. You have been loaned that medium in order to listen to that music. How is this so difficult?

    Laws are not needed to "protect" consumers or businesses. Natural law says that if I own a lawnmower and loan it to you under a contract, you have to return it to me.

    If you don't like my contract, don't use my lawnmower. The same is true about music.

    • "Consumers" should have no rights. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by nuggz ( 69912 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:40AM (#7880297) Homepage
      The physical music medium is something owned by someone else

      No, I own the physical medium.
      I bought it, I did not license it.
      If I take it from a store without paying, they claim it is theft, not a license violation.
      • You didn't necessarily steal a product that the store owns, you stole the profit the store makes from providing the licensed product.

        You're not buying a CD, you're buying the rights to listen to the CD in a certain way.
        • WRONG.

          If I buy a music CD and someone takes it from me, that person can be PROSECUTED and JAILED for theft of personal property. MY personal property.

          Go talk to some cops and judges. They'll set you straight.

          - It's not a suggestion, it's THE LAW.
        • You obviously need to read the appropriate laws regarding sale (many countries even have special laws for sales to consumers. To sum it up really fast, if you enter shop, take item and give money in return, you bought something and the ownership was transfered to you in the process. End of story.
    • Where's the license agreement? Last time I bought a CD(5 years ago), there was none. I'd assume its the same now. Btw, I support my artists by seeing them in concert and not sending my money to the RIAA.

  • if it runs in a CD player (Score:3, Insightful)

    by auzy ( 680819 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:38AM (#7880287)
    u can run it on computer for sure.. Its pretty futile for them to even try, because the moment one person cracks it, it hits P2P, and all the ppl who weren't going to buy it anyway, are going to d/l it then... its completely pointless.. Only annoys the ppl who bought it

    • Re:if it runs in a CD player (Score:5, Informative)

      by sql*kitten ( 1359 ) * on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:35AM (#7880658)
      u can run it on computer for sure..

      Unfortunately, that's not quite true. One of the popular copy protection mechanisms is actually to misformat the CD slightly; a consumer CD player has enough tolerance to still play it, but a high-quality audio CD player, or a player designed for high-speed data is designed to much finer tolerances and can't. If you look carefully at those CD cases, you will see they are missing the usual CD logo, because technically speaking they aren't CDs as they don't conform to the official standard. They are just objects the same dimension as CDs that happen to play in some CD players and not in others - and by coincidence, those others are the ones used in PCs. In other words, it's a hack, or an anti-hack if you prefer.

      ts completely pointless.. Only annoys the ppl who bought it

      Now that is true.

  • Piracy Vs. iPods (Score:4, Insightful)

    by iainl ( 136759 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:39AM (#7880292)
    Since the iPod was this Christmas's "must have" item, and continues to get massive publicity along with selling as fast as they can make the things, I have to wonder:

    How much longer will it be before a 'copy-protection' scheme that effectively stops you making any sales to iPod (or similiar) owners harms sales more than the increased level of copying that supposedly happens with non-protected CDs?

    When you factor in that its going to be the people most into music who are prepared to shell out for devices like this, these "copy protections" have to be be at best of dubious value.
    • How much longer will it be before a 'copy-protection' scheme that effectively stops you making any sales to iPod (or similiar) owners harms sales more than the increased level of copying that supposedly happens with non-protected CDs?

      Given than an iPod costs around GBP300 and a CD player can be had for around GBP9, it will be a long time before the former has the ubiquity of the latter.

  • Foo Fighters latest (Score:3, Informative)

    by samsmithnz ( 702471 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @09:47AM (#7880339) Homepage
    Theres no copy protection on the Foo's latest.

  • response from IFPI (local RIAA) (Score:5, Interesting)

    by laurensv ( 601085 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:10AM (#7880490) Homepage
    The response from people at ifpi [www.ifpi.be], our local RIAA is that users shouldn't expect that their CDs work in their car stereo (main problem for the average belgian joe) is because car manufacturers use CD-ROMplayers in their cars and no music CDplayers (please don't flame me, it's their words, not mine).
    I've searched their site but haven't seen that response listed anywhere, but that's not really strange because their entire piracysection (with subsection for facts, CD-R and internet) are "to be defined" since that section went onto their site months ago.
    But on (flemish) TV this is the mantra of the IFPI spokepeople, and with t -my guess is- they're trying to divert the rage of average belgian joe who just bought a CD that doesn't play in his car from the CDproducers to the carmanifacturers (they should have given you a real CDplayer with your car).
    Arh, normally I would just say fuck'm , don't buy their crap; but now I'm pissed at their disinformation and want to see them judged for the smegheads the are.

    • good reasons to use CD-ROM tech in car CD Players (Score:5, Interesting)

      by feepcreature ( 623518 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:27AM (#7880611) Homepage
      There are good reasons to use CD-ROM tech in car CD Players. The average car CD player will be moving around a lot more than the average home player. This is a more challenging environment, so it's more important to have error correction and faster reading (to allow for re-reading) when sections are missed or misread due to shock.

      Since the "copy protection" is generally done by interfering with the error detection features of the CD standard, this product is inherently less suitable for in-car or personal player use (while jogging, say). It's also more vulnerable to scratches... Almost like in the old days with vinyl records?

      But your local RIAA folk are still wrong. Consumers should be able to play their music CDs in ANY CD player. That's what the standard is for, after all.

  • Landmark decision to be expected? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Groote Ka ( 574299 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:12AM (#7880500)
    As far as I know, this is the first time record companies are being sued for this issue (which is a good thing to do, IMO).

    The first question is: can we expect a landmark decision here?
    Yes, I think we can. Like with the Kazaa case in The Netherlands, people will most probably be looking forward to the outcome of this case. Furthermore, legal decisions in a civil case can be enforced all around Europe (when decided for those countries) by means of the Brussels and Lugano conventions.

    Next question: how soon will there be a decision?
    In a long, long time, probably. When I take my teachers seriously (best of the best of dutch IP lawyers), lawsuits can take years in Belgium, depending on the cravings of the judge. When it's a good day for hunting, you're lost.

    However, I do not want to copy this statement directly. Perhaps there's someone from Belgium to throw some light on this case?

  • Selling CD's that can't be played... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by zin ( 7049 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:24AM (#7880589)
    ..thats sure to increase CD sales and profits. How many people rip cd's and put then on their I-POD like devices or into mp3 format. I take my CD's and rip them to an MP3 CD so I can make my in-dash player like a 10 cd changer. I don't even own a "Disc Man" or a typical CD player.

    Silly gooses, how long until they realize they need to change their business model for the times.

    ZiN

  • you should always use cdparanoia (Score:5, Insightful)

    by treat ( 84622 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:46AM (#7880742)
    You should always use cdparanoia. Otherwise you are left with undetected errors. All other rippers cause errors except in ideal circumstances.

    • Re:you should always use cdparanoia (Score:4, Informative)

      by karnal ( 22275 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @11:45AM (#7881198)
      EAC works well also, given a proper configuration.

      Not all of us use Linux as our primary desktop. I do have one as a dev box, but other than that, it's Windows on the desktop and Linux for servers.
      • Not all of us use Linux as our primary desktop. I do have one as a dev box, but other than that, it's Windows on the desktop and Linux for servers.

        You can use cdparanoia for a good rip under Windows using CDex [sourceforge.net]. Highly recommended ripper. I also suggest using the R3mix VBR quality preset, which did very well in blind-tests against uncompressed audio.

  • Copy protection holding back purchases in my home (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 05, 2004 @10:51AM (#7880787)
    All I can tell you about copy protection is that in my home, for Christmas 2002, a DVD/CD player was received that only played mp3 music if it was recorded at a specific bit rate, with a lot of restrictions. The gift giver was thanked, and asked to return it.

    We have put off purchasing a DVD/CD player (and now recorder) for the living room, two portable mp3 players, a DVD-Ram/+R/-R recorder for the computer, an mp3 stereo deck for the car, a kitchen CD/mp3 player radio for mom, and a portable mp3 stereo for outdoor trips all because it is unknown if any of these items will restrict us from playing the music that we own.

    I'll be taking a cd with mp3s on it to the local electronics outlet in the next few months to see if there are problems playing mp3s on several car stereo decks in the price range we can afford. We'll gladly give up a bit of sound quality (especially in a car) for the convenience of being able to play over a hundred songs on a single cd rather than shuffling cds while driving, especially being able to eliminate songs we don't like.

    DVD recorder for the computer? Was planning on getting a deck that included DVD-Ram thanks to the random access feature, especially suitable for computer files and archiving, but which can also be used for audio and video creation for playback in the living room. That plan appears to be on hold because we're waiting to see if DVD-Ram format survives, and waiting to get more info on the ability to playback music and videos we own, without ridiculous restrictions.

    Portable mp3 stereo playback? We'll wait to see what becomes popular. Probably another year. In the meantime, cassettes that we can record at home without restrictions will have to do (which is something we've been doing since cassettes overtook 8-track player/recorders).

    Living room DVD player? Forget it. If we need to play back a video, it will be piped from one of the computers on our home lan through a s-video output to the television, as we are already doing. Thanks to broadband, and a relative's dvd player (and his patience), we can watch any dvd we want without paying for a player. Our house is between his house and his job, and he doesn't have to buy any videos, we keep him well supplied.

    Without full disclosure on restrictions, we won't waste any money on consumer electronics unless we find out beforehand through someone else's experiences, whether the hardware works with the music and videos we own. We've been burned by incompatible software, and software that doesn't work as advertised, costing hundreds of dollars each, and we aren't going to start the same thing with consumer electronics. I have another relative who has been burned by the Sony mini-discs.

    Any consumer electronics we buy in the future MUST be compatible with the music and videos we own, and must be able to play (and record for backup) them in every way currently available and every way that makes sense. Or we won't purchase them. That's the bottom line.
    • a portable mp3 stereo for outdoor trips all because it is unknown if any of these items will restrict us from playing the music that we own



      But you DON'T own the music, you own a license to it.

    • I hear your pain, but there are unrestricted products out there. For example, buy an Xbox, chip it and install Xbox Media Player [xboxmediaplayer.de]. You can play just about any audio and video format on it, including DivX/XviD and mpeg2. Beats any stand-alone player on the market by far, and it's under 200 UKP all-in. (Xbox + chip). Also can stream video across your home network.

      Was planning on getting a deck that included DVD-Ram thanks to the random access feature, especially suitable for computer files and archiving, bu

  • In Canada I have the legal right to copy a friend's music disc, etc, this has been decided by our copyright board (as long as I make my own copy). In my humble opinion, copy controlled discs are violating my rights granted by my government. In a seperate issue, if I can legally copy someone else's music cd, can I not legally copy software? :)

  • But why? (Score:4, Funny)

    by jdavidb ( 449077 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @11:44AM (#7881187) Homepage Journal

    Why use cdparanoia when you can just go online and download it from your favorite P2P service? :)

  • The rights of the middle "man" (Score:3, Interesting)

    by wytcld ( 179112 ) on Monday January 05, 2004 @01:00PM (#7881839) Homepage
    A lot of this stuff can be summarized as "The man in the middle attacks." Media as intermediation. The corporation as the "person" behind depersonalization.

    It's pretty clear that the artist has ownership rights to some high degree, and that the purchaser of the art has ownership rights. Similarly for the farmer and the those sitting down to eat. But in our system of middlemen the artist and farmer on average barely scrape by, often holding a second job to do that, while those about to "consume" get an abundance of adulterated junk of low artistic and nutritional quality while our money makes the middlemen very comfortable indeed. Meanwhile the farms and music makers are forced to consolidate into megafarms and megastars....

    What would happen if our food middlemen decided to add substances to, say, the potatoes of one distributor that would poison only those who ate the meat of another distributor? You don't, after all, have to eat those potatoes. You don't have to buy those copy-protected CDS, either, or combine them with musical equipment they won't work in. (My DVD player plays CDs. Just why should I want to buy a separate CD player to play the crippled ones?) But clearly something's wrong here. Food from different suppliers should be as fully compatible as possible. Musical items from different suppliers, likewise.

    Anything else is restriction of the fundamental ownership rights of the artist/farmer and the appreciator/eater. The laws need to be restructured so that the middle men are allowed only those rights which in no way infringe on the fundamental rights owners, who produce and consume whatever the middlemen distribute. Distribution should be recognized not as ownership, but as the relation of a cargo carrier to the cargo carried.

    And we must realize that anything which robs from the final customer also robs from the original producer. The century-long history of the obliteration of small farmers due to the stranglehold on markets by middlemen amply demonstrates the economic principles involved when middlemen are allowed too much sway. One way to address this is to alter the balance of laws so that fictitious corporate "persons" never have rights equal to individual living persons - whether the persons who play music, the persons who run family farms, or the persons who enjoy a good tune with a good meal.
  • Stand up!

    Fight for our rights

    ...pause...

    /sheepish grin

    Just don't...err...waffle.

    Gah! I feel dirty for a pun of such depravity.

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