Dell To Techs: Don't Help Customers Remove Spyware 1013
Alien54 writes "Well, more exactly, be advised that if you are giving a Dell for Xmas, not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware, but their tech support lines will refuse to tell users how to remove it, and will not give people advice on where to find some good tools to remove it. As seen in the latest newsletter from SpyWareInfo, Dell sent an internal memo to its tech support minions which says in part: 'NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.' This means we do not take callers to download.com or doxdesk.com, nor do we recommend spyware removal programs, nor do we advise callers on the use of spyware removal programs. This includes using phrases "We don't support the removal of spyware, but I use..."'" (Read on below.Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT by T : And for an update, too.)
"Now isn't that just nifty. Several folks in the antispyware/antivirus community have signed an open letter to Dell Inc. asking them to retract this possibly foolish and misguided policy. That letter is located at here." Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT Mike Healan, editor of spywareinfo.com, writes "The original posting is misleading.
Dell is absolutely not installing or preinstalling spyware and the
headline gives the impression that it is."
Sorry, hang on (Score:5, Informative)
What it says is Dell are for some reason now very aware that they're at risk of getting sued if they advise people to do thinks that violate somebody's EULA.
We remove spyware all day long (Score:5, Informative)
some reasons why (Score:5, Informative)
What happens if the user hoses a system using one of the tools? HijackThis will allow you to 'fix' items that shouldn't be fixed. Spybot can do the same. In my opinion, a spyware killer in a novice's hands can be as damaging as some spyware.
Dell is also covering themselves against lawsuits, as the article pointed out. This should ultimately keep the prices down anyway. Come on folks- Dell support has ceased to be good. You buy a dell for a good price on a great computer, and then you hit up your neighborhood geek if you mess something up.
On a different topic, I wonder just what preinstalled spyware the article was talking about?
alternative (Score:4, Informative)
Debian provide some pretty special CDs too.
Comcast, too (Score:5, Informative)
Re:No luck for many... (Score:3, Informative)
This all assumes they didn't change it in the last year.
Re:No luck for many... (Score:4, Informative)
We use Dell OptiPlexi here at work, and I see very few problems with them hardware wise that isn't fixed in a few days. Software wise, we just make our own images and ghost 'em out, so I don't know what kind of install job Dell does.
Very, very simple explanation (Score:5, Informative)
Having lived in the same city as Dell (in fact my church took over the building that used to house Michael Dell's synagogue...) for 10 years, and having known countless people who worked at Dell, and having worked (as a contractor) at Dell myself, I can confidentaly say there is likely one thing and one thing only going on here.
Dell is a leader in a very low margin business. They are virtually masterful at cutting costs. Their corporate buildings are made of prefab concrete, somewhere between ugly warehouse and office building, but just nice enough looking to be presentable and not look especially cheap. They expect their employees to work 60 hours a week and PRODUCE. Yet, they don't pay their employees a whole lot. They are the only major employer in the State of Texas, as far as I know, that has a policy of not paying out vacation time when you stop working there. When I worked there years and years ago, one of my duties was to order office supplies. The basic ball point pens were 3 cents each (due to a special deal with a supplier, I believe), and I was instructed not to order anything other than basic pens without a good reason. Dell also hires virtually all its workers as contractors first; if they are good enough, they may be hired on, but if not, there are no qualms about letting you go.
Fundamentally, if there is one characteristic that describes Dell, it's that they're cheap, cheap, CHEAP.
So, unless there is some evidence to support a different viewpoint, I'm quite certain that Dell is doing this only because they don't want those people to screw up their systems and call tech support back begging for help. Because that would cost more money.
And, to be fair, it's not as if Dell owes their customer help with some problem that is not Dell's fault anyway. If they did offer support for things like that, it might entice people to buy their products, but it would be just a perk.
The GAIN Network (Score:2, Informative)
Who's lawyers called up theirs to tell them user license agreements would be violated
Many programs include Claria's GAIN Network [gainpublishing.com] software to deliver advertisements that fund continued development of the programs, with EULA terms to the effect: "You agree not to interfere with the function of the advertisement delivery software included with this Program."
I work for dell... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:No luck for many... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Dell is not your computer handyman (Score:5, Informative)
Says who??? The only place it says that is in the write-up submitted to Slashdot. Let's have a look at what spywareinfo has to say...
If you or a family member receive a Dell PC as a gift this Christmas, you may be in for a surprise, if it becomes infected with spyware.
So it sounds like just what the parent of your post claimed; they simply won't help you remove the crap you put on yourself. Try to keep your facts straight next time instead of jumping to unwarranted conclusions. Also, use that advice for all your life's endeavors.
Re:...An Answer (Score:5, Informative)
I work for tech support for a major US DSL provider, and we're not allowed to remove spyware...we are supposed to refer the customer to their manufacturer. We are not even allowed to recommend AdAware or Spybot S&D to a customer...do these companies even talk to each other about anything? Nobody seems to want to take responsibility for helping users rid themselves of this garbage.
Re:This isn't really surprising to me (Score:2, Informative)
One thing I've learned from working with Dell for the past few years is that they don't give a flip about the home users
I don't agree. I just purchased a Dell a few weeks ago. I did have a problem with it: When I got it, it began lagging to unusability (five minute boot times and about the same to load any program) about the second day. It would randomly alternate between terrible lag and perfectly fine. My guess was that the hard drive was on its way out.
Anyway, it was a new computer. I am quite capable of replacing a hard drive--and indeed, they offered to send a replacement--but I didn't care to do it for a computer I had just bought. They offered a new motherboard; again I refused. It didn't take long. They offered to replace the entire computer. To top it off, they got the new computer coming to me the day after my call and sent it Next Day Air. They, of course, provided free shipping for the broken computer back to them, so the two weeks of delay I was worried about was slashed to days and the potential hassle turned out to be minimal.
Now I'm not happy about getting a machine that started dying the minute I took it out of the box, but I was happy with their level of responsiveness and the speed with which they remedied the problem. Also, my brother bought a Dell about a year before about had absolutely no problems with them. (He also purchased several Dells for his workplace, with no complaints, and Dell showed their appreciation for his multitude of purchases--they were in his name, not the companies, by the way--by giving him a free PDA.) I know other people who have Dells as well and haven't heard them complain about the machine or the service.
Is the tech support good? No. It's the same thing you encounter at most places though: Somebody reading from a set of files. Sadly that is sufficient for most callers who forgot to plug their machine in but little beyond. We just saw an article on /. that Dell is moving their call centers back from India, so maybe that will help. I'm not holding my breath, but I'm not willing to complain about Dell's support when even companies as huge as Microsoft, with their sort of money they could be throwing around, have their techs reading from a document that I could have just read from the Internet. As far as their responsiveness to my issues and willingess to fix the problem, I have no absolutely no complaints. I pushed for the solution that would cause them the absolute worst headache and monetary cost and they agreed without incident.
Re:They support the OS, and the browser is the OS (Score:3, Informative)
Anyways, he now uses mozilla per my advice, and hasn't had a popup since.
Mom and Pop (Score:1, Informative)
Local service, REAL support, and zero corporate buffoonery.
Umm, this is slightly skewed. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:5, Informative)
It's very simple, really. They have to pay my fee. It usually involves dinner (good food, what my dearly departed Great Depression-survivor grandma used to call "Reagan food,") gas money, and, in the case of my attorney friend whose machine I built for him, free legal advice. Absent those things, well, sorry, I just don't know anything about that problem.
Dell is not bundling spyware : From SWI's Editor (Score:5, Informative)
FYI, you don't know how beautiful a feeling it is to have your site on the front page of Slashdot, AND have mod points at the same time. I was soooooo tempted......
Mike Healan
Editor
www.spywareinfo.com
Re:Shows us what trusted computing will bring (Score:3, Informative)
Oh my god.
Is Slashdot really this stupid?
Trusted computing
- Will not make viruses "slide in" to the OS.
- Will not attempt to stop you from running untrusted code
Let me tell you exactly what "Trusted Computing" is:
- Trusted computing is a combination of a hardware standard (TCPA) and a software system based on
- Trusted computing allows the BIOS to verify that the operating system matches a specific signature.
- Trusted computing allows an application to determine whether the operating system matches a specific signature, and whether the drivers match a specific signature.
- Trusted computing allows an application to ensure that it has not been modified.
- Trusted computing allows the OS to check the signature on an application before it is run
That's it. That's all that Microsoft's "trusted computing" does.
Trusted computing will not:
- Prevent you from running Linux on your system
- Prevent you from running an older version of Windows on your system
- Prevent you from running unsigned code on your Longhorn based system
- Prevent you from using unsigned drivers
- Prevent you from using unapproved hardware
- Prevent you from deleting files or folders
- Prevent you from accessing your HDD on another system
- Prevent you from modifying the software applications on your system (except those programmed to refuese execution without a proper signature - note that many programs do this already by hashing themselves on startup)
Trusted Computing may prevent you from:
- Viewing DRM'd content without signed drivers and approved hardware
- Viewing DRM'd content without a signed, unmodified operating system
- Viewing DRM'd content without a TCPA-compliant BIOS
- Viewing DRM'd content without a signed, unmodified media player/viewer
"Their spyware, "trusted" software, may be automatically installed and automatically re-installed beyond your control."
This is FUD. Plain and simple. Spyware will not be "trusted" unless you accept the signature of the author (similar to the way ActiveX controls work now). Spyware will not autoinstall any more than it does today. Spyware will be uninstallable. 3rd-party spyware removal software will still run. The BIOS will not prevent you from executing spyware-removal software.
In other words, the parent is blatantly lying in everything that was said.
(Disclamer: This is derived from Microsoft's statements. Windows Longhorn has not been released. Trusted Computing is as-of-yet unimplemented. Microsoft may choose to tighten or loosen aspects of the system before the release of Windows Longhorn. Facts based on my knowledge of Microsoft and independent claims. Facts may not be 100% correct.)
Re:Nasty (Score:3, Informative)
Usually, I'd refuse to take the bait, but you're wrong here.
This is what the 'search' parameter is about in /etc/resolv.conf if on Linux(dunno about more general UNIX) or whatever monkey-word they use in Windows. Basically, it'll try resolving barewords like the one you posted there first using normal resolve techniques, then it'll tack on the domain and try again if resolving fails. So it might have been help.coxcable.net or something... nonetheless, tech support guy was probably a drooling idiot.
But they're not always totally full of crap -- I've had some good help from them on occasion, usually pointing out my more dumbass mistakes (which I'm grateful for -- saves me a lot of time).
Re:Nasty (Score:1, Informative)
The Obvious Time Suck Issue (Score:5, Informative)
Some of the most insidious spyware that people pick up in their day to day work on the internet has the potential to completely disable internet access using Internet Explorer if it is removed from the system.
Now, I'm not advocating spy-ware, or suggesting that these programs are at all righteous--the developers of that software should be hanged--but it doesn't change the fact that if a company like Dell were to recommend that their users download and install something like Adaware they are getting themselves into a whole mess of follow up problems with inept users.
Any software that can potentially shut down the browser that the vast majority of non-saavy computer users employ everyday probably shouldn't be endorsed by a company like Dell... they would be creating a ton of work for themselves trying to explain which pieces of spy-ware should be removed and quarantined, and which should be dealt with by other means. Also, once you've explained what should be removed, then you have to deal with how to remove the spy-ware that Adaware shouldn't touch. We're talking about lots of man hours, and educational phone calls with inept users.
I think we can all agree that it isn't Dell's job to educate every user that owns a Dell on how they should remove spyware that is potentially going to comprimise their internet access through IE. Most people are just incapable of that level of skill anyway. I know I wouldn't want to walk a sixty year old grandma through all that over the phone.
Let's be realistic.
Oops, somebody didn't read the posted... (Score:1, Informative)
Typical
Re:Dell is not your computer handyman (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Dell is not your computer handyman (Score:3, Informative)
Re:another reason not to buy dell: fire hazard (Score:5, Informative)
Amen! I'd like to kick the ass of whoever thought of the nonstandard power supply pinout on Dell and other big cheapass OEMs. Especially when it looks just like a real ATX connector.
Anyway, to continue this offtopic post, here's what I did last time I needed to replace a motherboard in a big-name OEM computer -- a Compaq. Unplug the power supply from everything. Use the ATX power pinout [xtronics.com] as a reference and find pin 14. It's usually the green wire, but don't trust the colors. Stick one end of a straightened paperclip into pin 14, and stick the other end into any of the ground pins. Now plug in the power supply, make sure the switch on the back is turned on if it has one, and use a multimeter to see if it's standard ATX or some proprietary crap. Surprisingly, my friend's Compaq had a power supply and mobo with a standard ATX pinout. If you find yourself with a nonstandard power supply, either rewire it or get a new one. And don't ever expect tech support from the OEM again.
Re:Dell contributes to SPAM, also (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The GAIN Network (Score:3, Informative)
Ummmm... So how does that work?
If you interfere with the program by getting rid of it, you've violated the EULA and no longer have license to use the software you got rid of?
(Yes, I know it applies to the bundled software, but I still thought it was funny.)
Re:Dell is not your computer handyman (Score:3, Informative)
You may want to reconsider your statement. Read carefully.
NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system.
Of what knowledge does Dell have of EULA's on your system other than the ones they have installed?
Re:Nasty (Score:3, Informative)
Re:A really big jump there (Score:5, Informative)
Gator got pissed that people were calling their product spyware, and instead of changing their product, they changed its name.
Gator is now known as Claria.
Tell a friend.
Re:Dell is not bundling spyware : From SWI's Edito (Score:3, Informative)
hilarious as a spectator.... but they have my profound sympathy.
And Yes, I misread slightly the article. I've been having a bad day and this sort of caps it off....
Re:some reasons why (Score:5, Informative)
Can you imagine the fun Dell's tech support would have trying to fix this? "um, oky, run this random program, but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, make sure there isn't this other program."
Re:Nasty (Score:2, Informative)
latitude is their business line of laptops (Score:5, Informative)
If you have a Latitude or an Optiplex you get a much better support experience because these are their high-end business models. Most of my Dell (well when they didnt ship my phone call out to india) support is pretty good because we have a business account and all the fun extended warranty stuff that forces them to kiss our ass.
The home user (Inspiron owners, etc) get the bottom of the barrel support designed to make you jump through every hoop to save money on replacement parts and to deal with the clueless. When I call from work I just say "Yeah this CDROM died, can I get one tomorrow" and we do some chit-chat while he fills in the fields on his computer screen. The next day the drive is here. Trust me, that's not the residential experience at all.
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Informative)
Look at www.ntfs.com [ntfs.com], they offer a DOS boot disk capable of reading NTFS partitions, for free-as-in-beer
Reasonable practice actually (Score:5, Informative)
The critical thing to remember is that users have a tendency to be paranoid, stupid, and dishonest as long as they're on the phone with tech support. You can save yourself a world of pain by not giving them any excuse to blame their mistakes on you. Maybe it's not nice that Dell won't help these people, but it's good business sense.
Note: I am not saying that ad-aware or any other anti-spyware program is bug-ridden and dangerous by itself. What I'm referring to is the nasty habit of spyware to be designed in such a way as to make it very difficult to completely remove, and incomplete removal results in Bad Things happening. This is why if someone has spyware that won't uninstall, we take them through manual removal. It may be tedious, but we know it works. Since we have documentation for that, the user can't blame us if they screw it up.
Re:Nasty (Score:3, Informative)
Gateway had a policy until a year ago that the warranty would be void if you even installed software after you purchased the computer. For instance, if you installed a retail version of PhotoShop, your warranty would be void. However, this is not illegal.
Re:Reasonable practice actually (Score:3, Informative)
Left hand not knowing what the right is doing. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Nasty (Score:2, Informative)
The same is true for Compaq, at least their laptops marketed through Circuit City. The salesperson let me know this when I asked him if he knew anything about how well the hardware was supported under Linux. He said that some other customers had had trouble getting under-warranty support when they had installed Linux. We stood there and went through every piece of paper that came with the new computer, and no-where was this written down. But when we called Compaq/HP customer service, the woman with the Indian accent eventually verified that this was true. According to her it violates the HARDWARE warranty to even repartition the hard drive. For the pedantics out there, yes, it is possible to get a Linux installation without repartitioning the hard drive, and from what I could tell from their representative this would still make them cry foul about the hardware warranty, but how do I know for sure? It isn't in writing anywhere.
For the record, this took place about 8 months ago. I ended up buying a Compaq laptop from them anyway and installing Linux, but I usually run Windows XP anyway. (Why? Mainly because I couldn't get Linux to do suspend or power management, and the first time the laptop hard- crashed by running completely out of battery I said I'm never going to do that again because that really will destroy a battery fast, which means never using it on the battery under Linux to be safe...)
Re:Where did the spyware come from? (Score:3, Informative)
Partly a liability thing, but it's mainly putting the customer in breach of the EULA that he clicks thru with Microsoft. Dell effectively were abetting this EULA breach and it wouldn't surprise me if it were Microsoft themselves who're really behind Dell issuing this internal memo by leaning heavily on Dell for breach of their OEM terms.
Re:Dell contributes to SPAM, also (Score:3, Informative)
Was it a deliberate thing they did to provide customer email addresses to spammers? Was it an employee smuggling customer data out? Was it an outsource employee doing as much?
Was it just a dictionary attack on your domain? Are you now just getting spam on that account because it didn't bounce? Maybe the spammers also tried davis@foo.com and donald@foo.com, but dell@foo.com was the only one that went through. Quite frankly, I think that is much more likely than the idea that Dell's customer email list was stolen. Finally, Dell would never do something so incredibly stupid as sell their email list to spammers deliberately. (And even if it did happen, don't you think there would be a front page Slashdot story about it?)
TechSupport and CustomerService were absolutely clueless, but that's not surprising; although it was funny to see how well they can embarrass themselves.
Who is embarrassing whom? They're probably genuinely not responsible, so now they're in the awkward position of dealing with a customer who mistakenly blames them for something that's not their fault. There's a saying in medicine that doctors tend to make the worst patients--I suspect that a similar notion might apply in tech support.
Re:Nasty (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Nasty (Score:1, Informative)
Being good wasn't enough. You had to be better not just than the required team goal but to secure yourself a position in the future and not be replaced, you had to be a top-performer.
Typical tricks to improve your personal statistics involved things like:
* Answering the customer's question, telling them to call back if your suggestion doesn't work and then hanging up on them without waiting for them to respond or even try out your suggestion.
* Pretending that you are answering the call, but can't hear your customer and then hanging up the phone after a few seconds. Even if management was listening, it would be hard to prove that it wasn't a hardware problem on your end of things (phone, headset, lines and so on). You could do this several times per day. Having three or four calls with an average of 15 seconds each really improves your overall average significantly.
* Telling the customer you would do some research so that *that* phone call was brief, to help your stats. Then calling them back later when it isn't going to affect your stats (since you're the one making the call) and giving them an answer.
We supported a rather complex group of products for a very naive and ignorant customer base, so it took a lot of time and patience to really get a situation resolved. Even so, management frowned upon anyone who could not maintain at least 30 calls per day and to really stand out above most of your co-workers, you had to handle perhaps 50 or 60 calls every day. That means that if a tech spent every second of the day on the telephone, they would have less than 10 minutes to spend with each customer. Since you have to factor in breaks, off-line research, meetings and just simple hang-up, answer, pick-up time between each call, six or seven minutes per customer was more realistic.
The moral of the story is, tech support wants to help customers but you can't waste your time helping customers AND keep your job at the same time and when it comes down to it paying rent and putting clothes on your back is more important to an individual than helping some housewife figure out why her "internet is broken". It is in the tech engineer's best interest to get you the fuck off the phone, with or without a solution to your problem. Customers are nothing more than shit that we have to shovel. Unfortunately.
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Informative)
I found that being in tech support which only used call time and volume as metrics resulted in a two very specific kinds of persons being "bred" to thrive in such an environment: Clever, stinking little boggies (see Bored of the Rings) whose main goal is to find the most amazing way to turn a typical "real support" issue into a support boundary call (i.e. assholes), and clueless script readers who offer absolutely no help other than what they can read and have customers hang up on them. The "good" techs end up becoming disgusted, jaded, and quit or are fired for not meeting metrics.
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:3, Informative)
Was that before or after the Apple 2 ?
Re:Nasty (Score:1, Informative)
Re:what spyware are they packaging ? (Score:1, Informative)
Music Match is known for collecting listener preference data, and Earthlink comes as preloaded software that integrates cookie tracking with internet explorer.
This is similar to what Sprint DSL did for a while, or perhaps still does under the guise of "driver instalation." That is, you get your setup pack mailed to you with the driver on cd, but a software program comes bundled with it that is required for your connection to work. It is rediculously lame and boggy technology.
AOL is its own ball of wax, and we declined them, knowing their ways from past experience with some HPs. But we soon found out Earthlink was set up to be just as lame on the Dell.
Earthlink shut off our account when we uninstalled their software portal and used the legitimate userID, password, and local connection number that came with the account to set up a traditional network connection.
How Earthlink became aware that we had uninstalled the software is curious, considering we were dialing from the same location and all other variables were the same.
That is unless they noticed a drop in our tracking output.