Imagine A UN-Run Internet 860
Damon Dimmick writes "Small countries in the United Nations have been arguing to put the Internet under the control of the UN so that countries can more easily monitor (read: control) Internet content. It's on hold for now, but this could become a very real censorship problem, very soon. Some nations have gone so far as to suggest "monitoring boards" for internet content. Here is the link to the Financial Times article. It briefly describes the current situation. Just something to keep an eye on."
Better than a USA-run Internet... (Score:-1, Insightful)
God Bless America, with the worst crime levels in the first world
God Bless America, where "democracy" means a rich, white male as President
God Bless America, the biggest consumer of the world's natural resources
God Bless America, so happy to violate international laws
God Bless America, where "freedom of speech" means race-hate groups like KKK
God Bless America, and its massive and ever-growing poverty gap
God Bless America, with barely 300 years of dire history and culture
God Bless America, all its appalling "sitcoms" with no grasp of irony
God Bless America, with the highest obesity levels in the developed world
God Bless America, because corporations should be allowed to run amok
God Bless America, wasting billions to attack foreign countries
God Bless America, and thank God I don't have to live there.
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un-run is right (Score:5, Insightful)
A prophetic subject line? If they run it as well as other things, the internet may be un-run.
Announcing the U.S intranet (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Announcing the U.S intranet (Score:2, Insightful)
UN Effect (Score:4, Insightful)
Defenders of the status quo say handing over power to governments could threaten the untrammelled flow of information and ideas that many see as the very essence of the borderless internet.
The internet is based on the ability to put up a web page and shout out my message to whoever wishes to wander by. It's even more powerful than dead-tree press because it reaches more people in a quicker fashion.
UN control is just that--control.
Not only do I not want UN control... I want as little government control as possible! Inforce the laws of your own country on the people in your own country... and leave the rest of us alone.
Davak
Oh, great (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Announcing the U.S intranet (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
UN has no bearing in the US (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, for the US to even recognize a UN ruling requires approval of the president and 2/3 of the House and Senate. Technically, UN rulings are considered treaties. Even when it's recognized, it still requires an act of Congress to enact some sort of legislation before anyone can be prosecuted.
The one thing our government does well is ensuring that we're the only ones making bonehead laws that are enforcable in this country.
Re:Good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
They could also try working on the ability to feed themselves before they do another inet.
Re:Good idea (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:un-run is right (Score:4, Insightful)
Is the UN that great? Well no, but it has at least contributed to world peace, stability and such throughout its existence. Its main flaws being that it isn't really above an individual nation states power and is especially vulnerable to the power of the US.
Re:Good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
huh? says who? i thought it was a network of networks.
some of those networks most definately have controls/policies against free speech.
Re:Good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
In most ways it's under the control of wherever the lines happen to run.
Examples:
--China has no problem effectively blocking 3/4 of the Internet from viewing.
--Germany/France have effectively censored certain portions of the net.
--Many countries have unique top level domains hosted within their countries.
The list goes on...
The point being, while the U.S. is definitely HEAVILY involved in the development, maintenence, and overall culture of the Internet (not surprising given the history of the network) it also far from being in any real control of it. Certain members of the U.S. government would like us to sieze control through a variety of means (primarily applying economic pressure to other countries), none of it has been particularly succesful (it turns out that most politicians A) don't care or B) 'get it').
Some objections to the UN in general (Score:1, Insightful)
Article 30. Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
Combine that with the Socialist provisions of the UDHR, Articles 21-29, and you get a position wherein freedom of speech cannot be used as a basis for arguing against Socialist entitlements. The UN's standard would outlaw free speech used to argue that certain classes are unfit to vote because they lack the requisite impartiality to wield political power of any kind. What constitutes using a right to deny others rights is very broad. God help us as a race if the UN becomes a global governing body. Dissidents will be all but put to the sword for daring to question anything in the political or social realms.
I do not want a UN run Internet. The UN is the same body that puts the Sudan on a human rights comission. The FUCKING SUDAN!!!! A country where the slave trade is alive and well and non-Muslims are routinely executed en masse for their beliefs. The Sudan not only violates almost the entire UDHR, but it is a part of part of the human rights commission!!
Only fools and crackpot leftists take the UN seriously. It is a den of dictators, murders, theives and their apologists. Yes, I for the most part opposed the War in Iraq. I also think the UN opposed us not out of principle, but because it is too elitist to see that drawing an equivocation between the United States Government and the Ba'athist regime is absurd. Hell, the modern PRC is more human than the Ba'athists.
You want an Internet that only at best maintains a pretense of being free and open, hand it over to the UN. You'll have the global elites not giving a flying fuck about your rights. If you think American courts are corrupt, try the UN. The so-called ICC makes a mockery out of due process of law. Secret witnesses, evidence, no right to trial by jury. Why is it that the more "enlightened" our "betters" get the more they try to make our government(s) and courts resemble their 15th century European equivolents?
Not quite (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope, just a whole bunch of "little" wars in non-Western-European nations that have killed millions over the years.
Is the world's first supra-national organization and, more remarkably, has had its power seriously challenged only a few times.
What about the League of Nations? Or for that matter, the Hanseatic League?
Absolutely not, the UN is a flawed organization (Score:5, Insightful)
I support the concept of world government, but before the UN can assume that role, a few things need to happen.
- The UN needs a split houses concept similar to the US and other democratic nation. One house gets a number of representatives dependent on a nations population, and in the other house all nations have equal numbers of representatives. This is the ONLY fair way to ensure that all nations are heard regardless of size or population.
- Abolish the security council. It made sense 50 years ago, but not today.
- All representatives should be ELECTED by the people in their nations, with reasonably limited terms (5 or six years max). If these people are going to determine my fate and run my Internet, I'd damned well better get a say in who represents me. Undemocratic nations that don't allow their citizens to vote should NOT get voting seats in the UN.
- It should respect the constitutions of its member nations. The UN should not have the ability to override, veto, or limit decisions or rights made or granted by their sovereign member states.
You'll pardon me for not holding my breath for these changes. The UN is a flawed, crippled organization that tries to grab onto any semblance of real power that it can, and it's in the interests of this worlds powerful nations to make sure it stays right where it is.Re:Better than a USA-run Internet... (Score:5, Insightful)
Where even criminals have civil rights.
God Bless America, so happy to violate international laws
When those laws are put together by the dictator's club called the UN, you bet. You know, the place that puts Syria and Libya on the "human rights committee"?
God Bless America, where "freedom of speech" means race-hate groups like KKK
Where freedom of speech applies to EVERYBODY, even the ones with unpopular causes. Hint: popular causes don't NEED freedom of speech.
God Bless America, with barely 300 years of dire history and culture
Hint: we're still on our first Republic. France is on their fifth, with intervening Reigns of Terror, anarchy, kings, emperors, and Nazi collaborationist regimes.
Hint: our popular culture dominates the world. Deal with it.
God Bless America, with the highest obesity levels in the developed world
Where food is so cheap that even the poorest can (over)eat.
God Bless America, wasting billions to attack foreign countries
They're ours to "waste", Saddam-lover.
The last thing I need (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, I say this is bad. The UN should be finding ways to get force countries to accept disagreeable content, not finding ways to make it easier for them to export censorship. Besides, there already is a way for military and religious dictatorships to shield their populations from the horrors of free speech and bare nipples: don't connect to the global internet. Run your own damn closed TCP/IP networks; I'll even send a free CD with all the software they'll need to the first dictator to call.
Of course, just not listening/reading/watching stuff you don't like is a strategy that, while damn near 100% effective, never seems to occur to these paleolithic troglodytes. That goes for Outer Boobistan no less than it does for Inner GOPistan.
Re:Good idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:un-run is right (Score:5, Insightful)
The UN has nothing to do with this. It's the more powerful countries that have prevented this from happening. Do you honestly think the UN could do shit if the US and China decided to go at it?
Has negotiated and enforced many peace treaties throughout that time.
Negotiated, yes. Enforced, no. In fact, more than half of all international treaties are violated on a regular basis, and many are simply ignored because they've been violated so much.
Economic and other sanctions have had positive effects on some countries.
WHO has done some fantastic work in the 3rd world.
True.
Is the world's first supra-national organization and, more remarkably, has had its power seriously challenged only a few times.
Wrong, but another poster already addressed it.
Has, respectively, saved the countries of Korea, Kuwait,and many others i'm forgetting by using multinational forces to defeat a common agressor enemy.
What saved Kuwait was oil, and those that need it. Has Korea been saved yet? Hardly.
I think you should read more. The UN is a joke (outside of it's humanity/charity functions).
Re:un-run is right (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The ITU made a good job of the phone system, no (Score:2, Insightful)
The ITU has a history of mandating REQUIRED international standards that include patented (and without royalty free/non-rand requirements...). Nor is their standards formation promotion open to the public, nor even the resulting standards available except at (sometimes considerable) cost.
To the ITU? No thank you...
and the alternative would be? (Score:3, Insightful)
Before you flame me about how your favorite information should be free consider that information includes:
- child porn pictures or other snuff
- virus/worm/hacking tool source code and instructions
- stolen intelectual property (for example: HL2 source)
- [fill in other human rights violation here]
Some of the above might still not be a black and white example of where to draw the line, but at least there are gray areas that need to be discussed on an international level. The conclusion will likely be the need for more then the current inability to remove internationally-agreed-upon unwanted content.
The UN seems to be the right place for this discussion. Just say it out loud "United Nations".
Discussions about wether this organization is efficient at all are to be taken up with your national representatives
'Nightmare material'? 'Control'? (Score:5, Insightful)
But I don't understand the intense negative reaction to this idea, particularly by the submitter. The UN is not a repressive dictatorship. Sure, some of its members are, but I highly doubt that a UN-controlled Internet administrative body would have been to stupidly designed that it would impose restrictions on the 'Net just because some UN member applied pressure.
In any case, why can we trust the U.S. government to take a hands-off role towards the Internet any more than we can trust the UN?
Re:Good idea (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Open standards that can be implemented by any geek in his mom's basement and distributability.
These are the real enemies governments are fighting. They want control for the purpose of control, not insure openess to the international community.
As for the UN being an international orginisation of nations you have to bear in mind that they have always been nothing more than a permenent meeting hall to engage in otherwise normal diplomatic practices. A permenent base for ambassadors, not a governing body of any kind.
It doesn't change anything about historical diplomatic process between nations other than creating a central point for participation in a city known for really good delis when they break for lunch.
KFG
Re:US bad, US good (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps you could be so good as to remind me when exactly we of the rest of the world came out in favour of 'political speech restriction'?
Wasn't it Ari Fleischer who suggested that "Americans should watch what they say"?
The UN has ALWAYS been against Free Speech (Score:4, Insightful)
The UN is an organization that does things like putting Libya in charge of its commission on human rights. Do you really want North Korea or Communist China to have a say in what YOU can or can't read online?
The UN is in no way, shape or form dedicated to the idea of democracy and individual rights. It is an organization by and for bureaucratic elites looking to expand their power and pretiege and ensure themselves easy employment. It has no moral standing, and only the power that is allowed it by the Security Council. It is not now, nor will it ever be, a "World Government," and thank God for that.
There are very few nations in the world that have a guaranteed right to free speech and a free press the way the U.S. does. (In France it's illegal to "insult the dignity" of the French President.) Putting the UN in chaarge of the Internet would be an unmittigated disaster for freedom.
Re:Better than a USA-run Internet... (Score:1, Insightful)
Rich white male president? Wah wah wah. That's the way it has ALWAYS been. The vast majority of Europe is run by rich white guys, you moron. However, take a look at Bush's cabinent. Even if he's not black or a woman, he has some advisers that are. Quit your senseless bitching on the matter.
Biggest consumer of natural resources? Once again, care to back that up? I daresay China and/or India and/or Japan might be ahead of the US on that one, simply due to higher populations. One reason the US consumes so much is because the people here are well off enough to do so.
International laws. Like it was said before, the UN sets those, and the UN has it's head in it's ass. What about France, Germany and Russia aiding Iraq when it was illegal to do so? I don't see you ragging on them...
Free speech is for EVERYONE, which is better than the thought police in Europe. Racists are assholes, but they have the right to be assholes if they want to. At least our government doesn't tell people how to think.
Massive, ever-growing poverty gap? You CANNOT back that up, because it's complete bullshit. The US has one of the largest middle-classes in the world. Why don't you do a little research before spouting off your spoon-fed crap?
What the hell does 300 years of culture mean? We're dominating the world in the culture market, so I guess that gives us a good track record, eh?
I agree with the sitcoms. Still, different folks have a different sense of humor. Deal with it. If you don't like 'em, don't watch 'em!
We're fat because we can afford to be. So what? I'm not a fatty, and I'm glad. If people are fat, they'll pay more in medical bills, so it's their own damn fault.
Corporations allowed to run amok? Enron and the like weren't ALLOWED to run amok, you dunce. They did so and got busted. There are laws against that, you know. But I guess your idea of "running amok" would mean when they lay some people off.
Like it was said before, it's our damn money. We'll spend it on trashing Saddam while many European nations spend it propping him up. Which is worse?
Yes, thank GOD you don't live here. We don't need any more anti-American sheep who vacuously take up the cause du jour. Go fornicate yourself with a meat tenderizer.
Its not about censorship (Score:2, Insightful)
Not likely (Score:2, Insightful)
codified in its charter. It would seriously affect the national sovereignty, and could therefore be seen as a breach of articles in the UN charter.
On the other hand, I would rather see the UN doing this than ISP:s doing it at their own will..
Re:US bad, US good (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:un-run is right (Score:3, Insightful)
No, most definatley not. The UN does, however, give them the chance to negoiate their differences fairly peacefully as well as allow other nations of the world ot exert pressure to prevent war.
I maintain that the UN is the world's first supra-national organization, before league of nations, simply because LN didn't have the US in it. It can hardly be considered world wide if you exclude one of the world's superpowers.
UN might be a joke, but it's the best we have. Kuwait was saved because of its oil, and South Korea, arguablly, was saved.
Re:US bad, US good (Score:3, Insightful)
If you put control of the Internet under the umbrella of the UN, we will see situations like what happened with South Africa [slashdot.org].
Re:Well... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:un-run is right (Score:3, Insightful)
Many smaller wars, yes but no gigantic world wide changing war yet. It's a small step forward but a good one IMO.
Re:un-run is right (Score:4, Insightful)
Hi!
Um--this is something of a stretch. This point might be better phrased "has been used as political cover by the United States to save the countries of South Korea, Kuwait, and many others...." Military intervention by member countries with limited U.N. involvement (South Korea, Kuwait) has been very successful. Military intervention led by the U.N. by itself (particularly where the U.S./NATO has not been involved) has been generally disastrous. I give you Lebanon; the Ivory Coast, Somalia, and any number of other horrid conflicts in Africa; the list goes on and on. Dictators and despots diss the U.N. because they know the U.N. is there to be "peacekeepers." They respect the U.S. because they can watch CNN--and they are well aware that the U.S. doesn't do "peacekeeping" nearly as well as it does killing people. And the U.S. military has a centuries-long tradition of taking "head shots"--gunning for the guy giving the orders.
That doesn't mean the U.N. is a total bust
Not at all. It just hasn't been very credible as a military force. Where it has been extremely credible is in creating a forum for international discussion--both directly and through other forums like the WTO. The U.N. has made a major impact on international trade and the environment through the licensing and monitoring of hazardous materials, the development of international air rules, the development of international shipping rules, and all kinds of dull, dreary, drudgery that doesn't make the front page. The U.N. has played a big role as a forum for Third World countries to state their case--and to build their economies. (The biggest impact for the poorest nations is that they get essentially free trade representation in New York City--the biggest marketplace in the world.) Dozens of poor countries have staked their plans for development on the manufacture of cheap textiles--and the U.N. provides cheap access to the buyers in the biggest market in the world.
The U.N. is better at organizing meetings than it is as a functioning governing body
Where the U.N. has been the most successful is in bringing people together in a common forum. Where the U.N. has been the most laughable is when it attempts to assert authority over something in which it has played no part, has no existing role, and to which it can contribute nothing. It was a U.N. agency, you may recall, that proposed an email "tax"--demonstrating that it knew absolutely nothing about how email worked.
In short...
The U.N. should focus on trying to negotiate realistic limits on fisheries protection and related maritime law--and leave the Internet to the geeks who run it. Or failing that, to the people who actually fund it and own it.
Couldn't we start another network? (Score:4, Insightful)
If this got annoying, couldn't we start another network? I can't think of any reason this wouldn't be fairly easy if there was a demand for it. Start new root name servers, setup a new IP allocation agency. Need new routers, but not new cable as they wouldn't be regulating at the MAC level.
Personally, I suspect multiple Internets are going to be the way of the future. Think Xbox Live.
Re:Good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Private ownership is only as good as the law its based on. I'm not a nutjob or anything, but 'ownership' is a fairly flexible term when the state/federal government's needs must be met.
Well (Score:3, Insightful)
Child porn: Sorry, but I do not agree with the US position that 18 is some magical age when sex become ok. If other countries wish to have a lower age of consent, that's their right. Then there are those countries that want ALL pornagraphy to be illegal. So if it's ok for us to tell a nation that 18 must be the minimum age for porn, why is it not ok for a different country to tell us that NO age is ok for porn?
Virus/hax0r source: Should be legal. Hacking should be illegal, as should releasing viruses to the Internet. The knowledge itself should not be made illegal. That is a stick your head in teh sand approach. You think that security experts are experts because they know nothing about hacking tools? No, they are experts because they know LOTS about them, what they do and how to stop them.
Stolen IP: Again, who are we to tell countries that they must have the concept of intellectual property?
Sorry, but nations just have real different ideas of what is ok and what is not. It needs to be up to them to decide what they consider acceptable, and how they are going to deal with the Internet in their country. I don't want some dictatorships telling us that we can't have free speech on the Internet any more than they'd want us telling them that they MUST allow it.
Re:un-run is right (Score:2, Insightful)
If the UN can't tell the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy, well then I sure as hell don't want it controlling the Internet!
Re:'Nightmare material'? 'Control'? (Score:3, Insightful)
In any case, why can we trust the U.S. government to take a hands-off role towards the Internet any more than we can trust the UN?
Because the US has taken a generally hands-off role towards the Internet. Because the U.S. courts have struck down laws trying to restict speech on the Internet not once but twice. Because the U.S., where DARPANET was born, has generally been protective of its intellectual child.
The U.N. is a useless body. In its entire history, it has never accomplished anything without the substantial agreement and cooperation of the Great Powers. Where they have disagreed, it has been powerless. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a perfect example of the kind of claptrap they come up with. Vague, contradictory, and ultimately useless because it is never enforced.
The truth is that anarchy serves the Internet better. What would it be like if the US could enforce its draconian and restrictive view of intellectual property on 'Net locations overseas? What if the Chinese could compel compliance with their censorship regime beyond their own borders?
Historically, the inevitable result of unification of political and social power in one organization or entity has been stagnation. A certain amount of ambiguity, of room for true dissent, a refuge from one authority in the shelter of another, is necessary to human advancement. There are some who will abuse that liberty. But it is not for their benefit that we seek to preserve the ambiguous boundaries of the 'Net. It is for ourselves.
Re:Better than a USA-run Internet... (Score:2, Insightful)
Wrong, except for murder, the UK exceeds the US in all crime areas.
God Bless America, where "democracy" means a rich, white male as President
Unlike Europe, where "democracy" means a rich, white male as Prime Minster.
God Bless America, the biggest consumer of the world's natural resources
Purchased at the fair market value. Too bad you can't afford to consume more.
God Bless America, so happy to violate international laws
The highest legal authority for Lawmaking in the US is Congress. Any such "international laws" unconfirmed by Congress are not laws at all.
God Bless America, where "freedom of speech" means race-hate groups like KKK
Yes, by definition of freedom, it will annoy those uninterested in true freedom.
God Bless America, and its massive and ever-growing poverty gap
You can't earn your money while sitting on the couch. Your unemployment benefits won't make you rich.
God Bless America, with barely 300 years of dire history and culture
And yet, still better than Europe.
God Bless America, all its appalling "sitcoms" with no grasp of irony
Just like Anonymous Cowards
God Bless America, with the highest obesity levels in the developed world
Best Medical system too to take care of it, since its not overwhelmed with the non-paying poor.
God Bless America, because corporations should be allowed to run amok
If your definition of amok is "without crippling restrictions" then yes, God Bless America.
God Bless America, wasting billions to attack foreign countries
God Bless America where we have billions to attack foreign countries.
Re:Better than a USA-run Internet... (Score:3, Insightful)
After the civil war I'd say we are on our second.
Re:Better than a USA-run Internet... (Score:0, Insightful)
I dunno... 10? Most of the rest of the world has a far worse track record than us in this regard.
> But it's okay for the US to support similar interests, when it proves to be profitable?
Can't a guy make a buck?
> If it applies to everybody, then why would there be a need for a 3-day shutdown of London so that protesters don't get a chance to "peacably assemble?"
I dunno, ask those crazy brits. Its their city.
> And you seem to be trying to outdo everyone else again by doing as much damage in your one Republic
as anyone else did in 5.
Heh. I think our Republic is holding together rather well, considering. Its a hell of a lot more effective internally than, say, the UN and EU.
> Aim high!
I think you are looking for the Air Force.
> And your pop culture dominates only because you refuse to listen to or view pop culture from other nations.
Actually, we love sampling foreign cultures, and spend a great deal of time trying to find stuff from overseas thats worth our time.
> Nothing else exists in your small world.
Hrmph. We are the most multicultural nation in the world. Ever heard of the expression "the melting pot" ? Well it still applies today.
[Disclaimer: This post has been written by an extremely bored American college student who should be studying Calculus right now]
Re:What's a "world war"? (Score:3, Insightful)
Also important to note is that while the cold war might be called WWIII, simply because of the resources involved, it did not involve a major direct military confrontation between superpowers. Flares up did occur but they were regional confrontations between world superpowers, not a direct war.
Calling the "war on terror" world war IV is... wrong. While the war on terror does indeed have a worldwide scope it, once again, doesn't involve the resources or amount of men that others did. It is also limited to a relative few countries and is against, in reality, very few people.
Re:un-run is right (Score:4, Insightful)
The UN has prevented war simply by giving diplomacy a outlet and allowing for world wide discussion of issues. This, combined with the possiblity of military action from the world's superpower, has lead to the near extinction of wars of conquest. Name me more than 5 in the last 50 years -- you won't be able to. Their authority is backed by the world, if the world doesn't care then the UN won't care.
At any rate, the UN hasn't "caused messes" for the US to clean up. It has, indeed, been much the other way around. UN has rubberstamped many US operations that lead to bigger messes indeed.
Re:Good idea (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:un-run is right (Score:3, Insightful)
The only good thing about the U.N. is that it's relatively powerless. Conglomeration of government power (whether nationalization or internationalization) is a monopoly; and monopolies in government are even worse than monopolies in economics.
Businesses compete on product features, prices, service, and goodwill (with certain customers, at least). Governments compete on favorable laws and regulations (or lack thereof). The more we centralize governments, the less choice you and I have in the kind of government we will live under.
People do this all the time in the U.S. Don't like the local laws and moral atmosphere? Move somewhere that fits you better! But increasing nationalization in the name of "consistency" has already decreased our options; and the signs point to this trend continuing.
Devotion to international law has given the U.S. that wonderful example of clean legislation, the DMCA. And now people in Europe are looking at the DMCA and saying, "Y'know, we really should be doing the same thing the Americans are doing. After all, we must have consistent laws!"
Re:So we can just sit around and bitch? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes! Damn them! Damn them and the tens of millions of protesters worldwide who rallied against the righteous invasion! I mean, so what if it was the largest protest ever in the history of mankind? Those crazy non-Americans (and un-American Americans) deserve to be shot! What do they know about what's right?
Re:Absolutely not, the UN is a flawed organization (Score:3, Insightful)
Iraqi Constitution Article 983582: The right of Iraq to develop weapons of mass destruction and use them on all Infidel cities shall not be abridged.
You do realize how stupid your suggestion is, I hope?
Re:Some objections to the UN in general (Score:4, Insightful)
Only fools and crackpot leftists take representative democracy seriously. Only educated men of property and good character should be allowed to vote or participate in the political process. That is of course how it used to be in the good old days.
It is a den of dictators, murders, theives and their apologists.
How did this nut-case slander get rated as "Insightful"? You're arguing that 90% of the world's population are "apologists". Wake up: Bush has managed to make most of the world angry at the US's foreigh policy - and this is not just dictators but the educated informed newspaper-reading middle classes of Western democracies. You know, it is possible these "apologists" might be right; recent events in Iraq certainly bear out their concerns. In any case, even if you disagree with someone please don't automatically impugn their character and motives.
The so-called ICC makes a mockery out of due process of law. Secret witnesses, evidence, no right to trial by jury.
I think you're confused. The mockery of the due process of law is promulgated by Bush/Ashcroft. Detainees face secret witnesses, evidence, no right to trial by jury. If you have something concrete (not paranoid fantasies) where the ICC was abusive, please post a link. (Also, trial by jury is not a requirement for due process, and may be detrimental when jurors can be retaliated against. Plus from where would you recruit jurors? Think about it before spouting nonsense.)
Wars of Conquest in the last 50 years (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Iraq -> Kuwait
2. Iraq -> Iran
3. Argentina -> Fauklands
4. Russia -> Afghanistan
5. Everyone -> Israel (twice)
Not all were successful, but the UN had a small hand in only one of them (number 1), and the rest were condemned, talked about, but prosecuted anyway.
And this does not even get into African "countries" and their various tribal/civil wars.
-Donut
Where does control come from, anyways? (Score:1, Insightful)
If I have two computers, I can network them, no problem. Noone is going to tell me what I can and can't do.
If you and I agree to network our computers, no problem.
If someone else wants to join, fine. And maybe someone else joins, and another...
At what point do we go from a private agreement that allows our computers to interoperate, to something that governments think they have the right and obligation to control? Not just regulate, but control?
Re:Wars of Conquest in the last 50 years (Score:2, Insightful)
I suppose a persons perception is reflective of the filter through which one receives information.
Re:Is the US a democracy? (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh for God's sake...
The US has tons of problems and our government is neither perfectly transparent nor corruption free. However, to have the gall to compare the government of the US (or Australia, or Belgium, or what have you) to the murderous, thoroughly corrupt regimes that make so much of the 3rd world a living hell is moral blindness of the worst kind.
And you don't have to remind me that the US founded or propped up many of those murderous, thoroughly corrupt regimes. That is true, and we have a grave responsibility to the citizens of those countries. But that still doesn't make it OK to pretend that all nations are equally good. Some are better than others.
I'll put my cards on the table and say I believe that humans have (by nature, God, whatever you choose), fundamental and inalienable rights; these rights are facts regardless of the system of government they live under. All humans have always had those rights. Some political systems recognize those rights better than others. For example, the United States recognizes those rights better than the Syria does. I think it is morally wrong to give Syria the same (or greater) voice on questions of human rights than the US.
Parent is factually incorrect (Score:1, Insightful)
This is so astonishingly false that I'm surprised it was uttered.
The US does not take "ANYONE", otherwise it would have huge "Welcome to America!" signs at the Mexican border, rather than huge fences and guards.
The US is not the only country people are trying to get into - all rich nations have a flood of people trying to get into the country, and the United States is no more accepting of immigrants than most.
Please, inform yourself. Statements like yours - short on truth but long on jingoism - are exactly why many people are anti-American. The only insult to America here is your willful ignorance.
Re:Better than a USA-run Internet... (Score:1, Insightful)
And there you have it. Welcome to America, if you can pay up front!
"...where we have billions to attack foreign countries."
Yes, the schoolyard bullies of planet Earth. How endearing you must seem to the other 5 billion of us.
Re:Absolutely not, the UN is a flawed organization (Score:2, Insightful)
Since the UN is the closest thing we have to a world government -- and since the non-American population of the world (there are a few of us) would like some say in what's being done to our planet -- it's not very helpful to suggest the UN needs to be "smacked down." Demonizing the UN reduces the likelihood we'll ever it become a true global democracy.
But other than that, you're right. While it sounds as if it would be more globally democratic to have the internet (or anything else) run by the UN, as opposed to unilaterally, it only sounds that way. The vast majority of countries (arguably, all of them) are less free and democratic than the US. It's in all our best interests for it to retain control over the net, even those of us the US government doesn't represent.
Re:Better than a USA-run Internet... (Score:2, Insightful)
No, they can suffer and die in silence like good little wage slaves! If you aren't productive, you're just a waste of resources!
God, this country must have sold its humanity.
Re:Good idea (Score:2, Insightful)
Its like giving a nuclear sub commander both missle keys. He isn't actively excercising his powers, but should he fancy launching a few missles, the power is at his fingertips. Isn't everything these days about pre-empting a threat? In this case the threat would be one country having the ability to severly curtial access to the domain name servers.
this is a little scenario for your post over here [slashdot.org]:
Imagine Party C = CIA, Party B = You, Party A = The Federal Government.
Now according to your theory, you have the right to STFU when requesting information from the CIA. Congress disagrees with you, as do I, thats why the Freedom of Information Act was created. The idea behind freedom of speech isn't that you have the right to STFU, its the opposite. If someone says something you don't like, you can bitch, moan, complain, and create public pressure to change that thing... because its your right.
Another scenario: A = Media Execs, B = You, C = News Outlets & D = Federal Government
Same as above, except (as they often do) D asks A not to break a story for a few days. A agrees, passes that to C and B is the loser. Is that censorship?
Re:Better than a USA-run Internet... (Score:3, Insightful)
But, I think this post raises a fascinating point about what constitutues a culture and a race. Culture is often considered to be associated with language which would probably still make China far more multicultural then the US since even the rural people tend to be bilingual in spoken tongues. The characters, which are functionally somewhat akin to a huge alphabet, don't change, but the spoken tongues vary literally from province to province and are mutually unintelligible wihtout a doubt and for good historical reasons.
So, if we use language as a basis for culture, we can indeed say that China is much more multicultural than the US and have a factual basis for this assertion.
But race as a reference to a group of genetically similar or dissimilar populations is an even more interesting way to define "culture" becasue if you look at it carefully you find that even the notion of race itself is defined differently in different cultures. So, of course, to an American looking at China, there's not question that there is a wider range of racial representation in the US than China because they're using the American definition of race. But if you were to take, for instance, a medical view of race, you might look at bone marrow compatibilities. Apparently it's true that one distinction between, for instance, blacks and whites in America is their high liklihood of inability to exchange bone marrow.
However, if you look in China, you will find that there are over seventeen types of incompatible bone marrow that you could technically argue are racially unique blood lines.
So, the definition of multicultural is not as clear cut as it seems. There's a context to every instance of language use that is ignored in casual conversation, but comes into play when talking about enormous notions like "cultlure" that is ignored at peril when you're using the phrase in American English and assuming your reader shares your background. Given that context, it's not surprising that your results appear to prove your point. However, appearances can be deceiving when dealing with the BIG issues.
Re:un-run is right (Score:3, Insightful)
There are no US peacekeepers in Cyprus AFAIK (mostly british).
The korean UN force was mostly american, but I'm pretty sure there were plenty of Brits and Canadians involved as well as several other countries. But it wasnt a peace keeping force was it?
There are no US peacekeepers in Liberia, Congo, Lebanon, etc.. Mostly done by smaller nations (eg Ireland, Netherlands, etc.. etc..). The US doesnt really get involved in UN peacekeeping that often TTBOMK.
Re:Bah. (Score:2, Insightful)
- There is no infrastructure to be rebuilt, it has to be built from the ground up.
- There is no education system in place.
- It is very unclear if there is anyone we can trust to not abuse authority when we want to hand it over and leave. This was especially true in Monrovia.
- Considering the racial politic in the U.S., any pre-emptive move on any country in Africa would likely spark insurrection here.
- France considers Africa its personal playground, and would take steps to make our stay there distinctly uncomfortable.
- Last but not least, there are an unknown number of health hazards in Africa. I could just see it...after six months of war in the middle of the jungle we finally arrive at peace, only to witness an outbreak of a cousin of Ebola. Just peachy.
The reason we didn't knock off Hussein earlier was simple: we didn't know if the next Baathist nutjob(maybe one of his sons, maybe not) would be worse. We didn't go in there to knock him off. We went in there to knock off him and his power base.It's amazing to me that people expect things to be so kind and peaceful over there....crying out loud, it took a whole lot longer than that after the U.S. won its independence from Britain & after the U.S. Civil War for things to settle down. In fact, I would say that things are still settling down from the latter...
Ahh well. You're right. Invasions are nasty business. No, not much nastier than I'd think. I think we've had it pretty easy. We've lost more people to murder in Chicago over the same period of time than we have in Iraq. I think the best we can do is set Iraq up with a government and let them sort it out. Will we be sending them money for the next 50 years? Yep. Look at the bright side...at least now, when we send twice what we sent to Israel to Iraq people won't claim we're Zionists.