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Microsoft Fires Mac Fan For Blog Photo 1087

christor writes "Microsoft has fired a full-time temp employee after it discovered that the employee posted in his blog a photo and story concerning Microsoft's purchase of what looks to be around 18 G5s. Check out the blog entry, Even Microsoft wants G5s, and the one that follows it. Microsoft fired the blogger, despite an offer to take the posting down. Note that this is not a free speech issue, even though the blog was hosted on a non-company server, because Microsoft is not, yet, the government. But it does present several other interesting issues, including that of the trade-off between the bad publicity that comes from the firing and whatever bad results follow when employees feel free to post such things."
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Microsoft Fires Mac Fan For Blog Photo

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  • by stevesliva ( 648202 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:31AM (#7337225) Journal
    It is difficult to develop Mac applications without Mac boxes.
  • by the_2nd_coming ( 444906 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:31AM (#7337230) Homepage
    or just do what they always do, have reference machines so they can keep any eye on the competition.
  • Paranoia? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BWJones ( 18351 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:32AM (#7337235) Homepage Journal
    So, what was the deal? Was Microsoft genuinely spooked at his revealing what building he was in, or were they upset that it was revealed they purchase Macs? They do have a Macintosh business unit, so I would guess the former, but it does appear a little extreme.

  • Non-issue (Score:5, Insightful)

    by EABird ( 554070 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:32AM (#7337237)
    I'm pretty sure that if I posted confidential information about my company, they would fire me too. All I have to say to this person is, duh.
  • by levik ( 52444 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:34AM (#7337257) Homepage
    Miscorosft fired an employee for painting the company in a bad light on a world-accessible medium?

    I don't see an issue. Imagine yourself running a small firm - if one of your employees were to go and make a post that clearly makes fun of your company, how would you feel about it?

    The move may be a bit harsh, but definitely not anything to raise privacy issues - as an employee, you are obligated to look out for the well-being of your company.

    As far as the G5s go, why wouln't MS want them? They have a bunch of products that target Mac OS, I would imagine they want to test them on everything from the G3 iBooks to the G5 desktops.

  • Bad Publicity? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by bearclaw ( 217359 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:35AM (#7337272)
    Please. 99% of the public won't even hear about the story. And of the 1% that does, 99% of them won't give a rat's ass who Microsoft fired.
  • by Daemongar ( 176180 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:35AM (#7337274) Homepage
    Yeah, Microsoft, is evil (here), but why the hell shouldn't Microsoft fire an employee for posting corporate information with the intent to embarass the MS?

    Even if that information isn't corporate secrets, still shows that employee doesn't exactly have their employers best interests at heart.
  • Re:Non-issue (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:35AM (#7337280)
    Is what you see in the parking lot or shipping dock confidential information?
  • Bad publicity (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Infonaut ( 96956 ) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:35AM (#7337283) Homepage Journal
    The thing is, the bad publicity will hit the Mac-loving crowd, the anti-Microsoft crowd, and probably nobody else will hear about it or give a damn.

    Most of the mainstream press doesn't even understand why Microsoft is considered distasteful by many people. I doubt that many news outlets will even consider this news.

    The Blog Nation may spread it around for a few nanoseconds, but most of them are already open-minded enough to realize that there are viable alternatives to Microsoft products.

  • Overreaction? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by toupsie ( 88295 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:37AM (#7337298) Homepage
    Microsoft does have a Mac Business Unit that produces an excellent version of their Office package. Microsoft has every right to can anyone they (barring contracts) but this seems like an overreaction. A Microsoft stockholder would want to know that Microsoft is testing and developing their Mac Business Unit products on the latest and greatest Macs.

    However, there is probably more to this story than we are reading -- mainly because the site is /.-ed.

  • Re:Non-issue (Score:2, Insightful)

    by timbloid ( 208531 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:39AM (#7337319)
    No, but if it brings the company into disripute by me taking photos of it, then that's a different matter...
  • by onyxruby ( 118189 ) <onyxrubyNO@SPAMcomcast.net> on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:39AM (#7337322)
    For those who can't get to the article, he wasn't fired for posting the pic about mac's at Microsoft. As he pointed out Microsoft is widely known to have used Mac's in different operations (like their Mac software unit) for years. He was fired for a fairly innocous describing of part of the physical layout of their campus. While I'm not exactly fond of beast of Redmond, they do have some pretty valid security concerns. After all, if you made something that routinely pissed off millions of people every year you'd probably be a little paranoid about your security too.
  • by pecosdave ( 536896 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:39AM (#7337328) Homepage Journal
    I don't like MS. Yeah, some might say I was an OSS zealot. When I gave up MS at home I went as far as to give away my MS Wheel mouse and replaced it with a Logictech.

    Chances are he signed paperwork saying that he couldn't disclose company secrets. He took the pic at work and posted it on the web, there are often policies about this. He let the world know what MS was up to.

    No matter how much I like MS they did exactly what they should have done.

    I know I'm up to my neck in NDAs and ethics processes, something like that would be a direct violation of all of them. I even try not to talk about what I do to my wife. Coporations keep secrets for a reason.
  • Two Words (Score:4, Insightful)

    by LittleGuy ( 267282 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:40AM (#7337334)
    "For Cause".

    Unless you have enough money not to care, or are in a union powerful enough to stick by/up for you, that is the terms of employment in 21st Century America.

    Welcome to your well-regulated life. The schools cover it with "Code of Conduct", and businesses continue it with "Policies and Procedures for Employees".

    When you retire, you'll probably be covered under "Retirement Home Procedures for Residents".
  • Re:Bad Publicity? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by TWX ( 665546 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:41AM (#7337353)
    More like, 100% of the people who hear about the story are either Slashdotters who already hate Microsoft, or Apple nuts, who already hate Microsoft. Honestly, I don't really see what Microsoft did wrong in this particular instance. If the knowledge of them posessing the Apples is what the company took exception to having had spread, then they are within their rights to terminate someone who doesn't maintain company secrets.

    I don't exactly care for Redmond's largest company myself, but for a change this is a reasonable business practice.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:46AM (#7337409)
    I interviewed at Microsoft last week. One of my interviewers had both a Linux machine and a G5 in his office.


    I don't think there is that much OS discrimination within the company, with the exception that each developer needs to have a windows machine for obvious reasons. I think MS fired him because he was blatently trying to embarrass the company.


    MS is making a big push towards platform independent applications via managed code. I heard from one employee that the vast majority of products will need to be re-written for the .NET Framework sometime during 2004, with little exceptions. Everything from Outlook to Live Meeting will be rewritten in managed code. That being said, I would not be surprised in the least if these machines were going to random employees who requested them, OR the .NET Framework team who just might be working on a OS X port for the .NET Framework.

  • by diersing ( 679767 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:46AM (#7337411)
    No no no, this crowd does not want to hear that. Are you suggesting while developing the Office line of products for Mac they might actually want to test on a G5? Absurd!!!

    For as valid as your point is, its kinda of unrelated to the topic of a company terminating an employee for iReason. The posting is suggesting that the employee was fired for.... what? Saying Microsoft was buying Macs? I don't think so. I would imagine it had more to do with taking images from the Redmond campus (unapproved images from his digital camera), off campus and making them available online. There are many business campus' that have very specific rules (that you agree to as part of employment) about what can and can't happen on campus. Understanding the images were captured in a loading dock, but they could have been pictures of code (screen captures or documents) or other MS IP. Since the guy was a temp, he prolly wasn't afforded a detailed explanation, just a seizure of non-personal items an personal escort the edge of the property.

  • by kescom ( 45565 ) <ben@@@tanjero...com> on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:48AM (#7337435) Homepage
    But not for emulating the G5 on x86 with Virtual PC.

    Virtual PC for Mac doesn't run on the G5s right now because it takes advantage of an endian-switch mode that only exists on Motorola's G4s. Microsoft needs some G5s to test against, plain and simple.
  • by Illserve ( 56215 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:49AM (#7337444)
    A. He's just a temp

    B. He's demonstrated a propensity to take photos of things "behind the scenes" at Microsoft and publish them on the internet.

    I don't expect they cared too much about this incident, but it identifies him as someone willing to snipe at his own place of employment on the internet. Being a temp, no reason to negotiate, just fire and forget. Why bother getting promises of good behavior from him that he'll likely reneg on next week when you can push the recycle button.

    Seems like a perfectly reasonable decision to me, and this guy had it coming.
  • not unusual (Score:4, Insightful)

    by avandesande ( 143899 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:49AM (#7337450) Journal
    Many corporate companies I have worked for explicitly forbid bring a camera of any sort onto the campus. If a person is unhappy with such a restriction they should work somewhere else.
  • by TheFlyingGoat ( 161967 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:50AM (#7337459) Homepage Journal
    It's pretty simple, actually. If you knew certain people worked in certain buildings, and you knew what those buildings were working on, you could possibly get some idea of what direction they're headed. For example, if they have a building that's dedicated to MSN Search and you find they have an unusual number of people in that building who have are experts in translation software and can speak fluent Chinese, you'd be able to tell they're working on some form of translating Chinese in their search engine. Not that big of a deal? It is if you're investing millions of dollars in new concepts.
  • Re:Non-issue (Score:4, Insightful)

    by diersing ( 679767 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:50AM (#7337460)
    If on THEIR campus.. yes.

    Where is the line drawn? The loading dock? A developes cube?

    From what I understand, the campus is pretty much a gated community. If the pic was taken from a public street, then yeah you have a point. But when on they're property, you gotta play by their rules.

  • I dunno about this (Score:4, Insightful)

    by jeffkjo1 ( 663413 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:53AM (#7337507) Homepage
    I'm going to get modded down for advocating the MS position, but, despite reading the blog entry where he says he was fired for revealing MS's deep dark secret, I tend to believe there is something else going on here.

    After all, MS develops office for Macs, amoung other software packages they port for Apple computers. This would infer that they at least test these ports once or twice, and they would obviously need macs for this.
    The idea that he blew the whistle on something is bogus, at least IMHO.
  • by beattie ( 594287 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:54AM (#7337521)
    By firing this guy, they brought more attention to his blog and therefore the pictures and comments that are still there either way. Seems kind of dumb of them to fire him.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:03AM (#7337609)
    Considering you didn't RTFA you managed to guess a lot of what he actually wrote. But you got one thing wrong:

    The picture itself might have been permissible, but because I also mentioned that I worked at the MSCopy print shop, and which building it was in, it pushed me over the line.

    But I do agree with you. This guy would have had to sign an NDA (and possibly other security docs) and outlined in it would be any such rules. He clearly leaked information the company considered private, and he should be sacked.

    If a company can't trust an employee, they should not have to keep that employee around. I, too, had to sign an NDA where I work, and I actually read it, so I know what I can and cannot do. The guy said he thought he had taken appropriate precautions based on what others experienced (I'm guessing in different companies), but clearly didn't check to see what was appropriate for MICROSOFT. And that is, after all, what matters when you work for Microsoft.

    In conclusion: If you violate your contract/NDA/whatever other official document you signed, you get canned. It's a simple cause and effect (the very purpose of these documents), hardly newsworthy at all as I'm sure it happens every day. Just because this guy found a new way to violate his contract (and it isn't that new either), doesn't set him apart from the rest.

  • Re:Non-issue (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jwjr ( 56765 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:04AM (#7337621)
    I'm surprised so many people take Microsoft's side on this issue. I run a small business. I've worked for a few small businesses. At each of those places I and the people I've worked for would have had no problem with an employee putting information like this on the web. I hope that if my business ever grew to be huge, managers at the level of the copy shop would have similar perspective: it just doesn't matter. In fact, making this a firing offense probably made thing worse.

    As far as I can tell, the facts disclosed are:

    1. MS copy shop operations are in the same building as shipping and receiving.

    2. There are trees, asphalt, and trucks somewhere on the MS campus. Sometimes there is sunshine.

    3. MS bought a few Apple G5 machines.

    As several people have pointed out, item #3 is no surprise, given that MS develops software for Apple computers.

    What's the big deal?

    Wouldn't a more enlightened company have requested that the employee go ahead with his offer to remove the text, or simply have asked that he note the preceding in a rebuttal? They can't call the information back, and does it really help MS to cultivate so much fear among employees about discussing even such innocuous details? If so, why?
  • by thepacketmaster ( 574632 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:07AM (#7337654) Homepage Journal
    An employee takes a photo on company property and then, without consent, posts it on his personal web page? He's lucky if losing his job is all that happens to him.

    It isn't that I don't feel sorry for the guy, but being a student of best security practices, I know that you don't go posting pictures without permission. The most basic reason is if there were something in that picture that could help out a thief, it would be a breach of physical security.

    In this case, I think the breach regards corporate strategy. Obviously, the Mac's are a superior system in many ways. (The fact they don't crash every 24 hours is a good start). So I'm sure Microsoft wants to examine them thoroughly. But to advertise this fact to the world is a breach of corporate security. Microsoft could easily slap this guy with a corporate espionage charge, and based on the number of lawyers they have, I'm sure they would win.

    There is a difference between freedom of speech and the duty of every employee to protect company workings.

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:08AM (#7337657)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by thatguywhoiam ( 524290 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:17AM (#7337756)
    Chances are he signed paperwork saying that he couldn't disclose company secrets. He took the pic at work and posted it on the web, there are often policies about this. He let the world know what MS was up to.... No matter how much I like MS they did exactly what they should have done.

    I agree with you completely, on a technical level.

    There's probably no doubt the guy broke 'the rules' as its very, very easy to do. Almost everyone breaks one of the standard workplace 'rules' per day. Same with the law - I am a total criminal, I jaywalk multiple times a day, and I've run red lights before.

    The difference is in the interpretation. Like the law, the spirit is supposed to be observed, not just the letter.

    What I am saying is this: he broke the rules and he shouldn't have been fired. Yes it was a picture of a part of the MS campus, a loading dock. Yes, technically it was a security breach. Yes, it was against the rules. No, he should not have been fired. Why?

    Because anyone can see he has not actually caused any damage to Microsoft. Nothing has happened. No one seriously thinks he has imperiled their development efforts, physical security, or anything else. Every one of these managers knows that the kid just screwed up, but they're going by the book and not with their brains.

    If we don't cut each other some slack, and use some bloody judgment, we may as all submit to the Giant Corporate Shell Script that tells us when to take lunch, when to take a shit, when to make small talk with workers. Rules are there to be interpreted with wisdom and intelligence. That's the way I see it.

  • by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:17AM (#7337760) Journal
    I don't think there is that much OS discrimination within the company, with the exception that each developer needs to have a windows machine for obvious reasons. I think MS fired him because he was blatently trying to embarrass the company.

    This is not really the issue (or it's very unlikely that it's the case).

    There are probably two factors that played a role. First, while the particular picture is not a big deal, maintaining a policy of not sending out pictures *is* a big deal. If people get in the habit of snapping pictures, sooner or later, important data will leak. Where I work, you just can't have cameras, and just can't take pictures. It's not unusual. Most companies won't just let you walk in and start taking pictures wherever you want. I've known people over the course of my life that *have* been involved in corporate espionage, and a small camera is a seriously useful tool for someone who can't afford to be standing in front of something for a couple of minutes scribbling things down on a clipboard. It's not an unreasonable policy demand at all, though I think it should probably be made more clear to temps. I applaud the guy for not flying off the handle over this.

    Second of all, this information *could* be damaging. It's a pretty safe bet that Microsoft conducts competitive research (though the building name tends to make me think that this is not the case). If competitors know what Microsoft is examining, it could put them on guard as to what Microsoft is trying to use from them. Furthermore, it lets them arm the lawyers, so that the moment Microsoft steps near infringing on a patent or whatnot, they can smack them. In this particular case, there's not a lot of suspicious information, but if, say, Microsoft was picking up a handful of iPods, something that doesn't generally have a direct business application (and it seems unlikely that the guy here would stop at snapping a picture with a caption of "Even Microsoft Wants iPods"), things might be a bit worse. Even if it's not competitive research, the contents of a company's loading docks can be quite valuable information. If Boeing has crates and crates marked "titanium sheets" sitting around, you can damn well bet that other airplane-producing defense contractors will be very interested. If Sony's Aibo division has a bunch of bales of fake fur on their loading docks, competitors have a good guess as to where the product is going, and time to produce marketing campaigns and make deals appropriately.

    So...I have to say that I can see how frusterating it is for the temp guy, but it's not as if Microsoft Security is firing him for liking Macs and working at Microsoft. Hell, of the people I know that have worked at Microsoft, two of them really like Linux, and one kept a Tux doll in his cubicle. MS doesn't really care about something like that -- they care about potential leaks, or precedent being set that could lead to future leaks.
  • by michib01 ( 464760 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:18AM (#7337778)
    I agree... But I had a look at the blog text. Honestly, there's nothing in it that could embarass MSFT or put it in a bad light.
    In the end, the blog post is simply speaking of "new toys" arriving that day. It is not telling something like "we finally have decent hardware" or "finally a good OS in Redmond".

    The security: I did not see the picture, like many of us. The guy, in what he writes, seems to have carefully taken a picture that could not provide other people with any kind of security information. I'm waiting for the blog to become available.
    We don't know if its company just wanted a reason to fire him, or if he realy posed a security issue.
    But I'm wondering what would have happened if the blog was something like "I love this company; It's a great place to work, this is a picture of the place where I work"...
    I'm not sure he would have been fired...

  • by golgotha007 ( 62687 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:18AM (#7337779)
    They told the guy point-blank 'we don't like what you posted, so you're fired'.

    um, did you RTFA? microsoft said that they didn't like what he posted because it was considered a breach of security.

    taking pictures of the loading dock and then describing where on the campus it was was considered to be too much information given to the public.

    look, i don't support MS in the least (and in some regard, i downright hate them), but this isn't a free speech issue, it's a breach of security issue.

    i am sure that somewhere in his employment contract (either with MS or his temp agency), it mentions that information regarding operating procedures are to be kept confidential.

    he violated that, MS called him on it. it's as simple as that.

    hopefully, he'll be able to find another job soon.
  • by Total_Wimp ( 564548 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:21AM (#7337805)
    Are you saying that the NDA you signed:

    Won't let you talk casually about what you do at work ("I develop a word processing application")...

    Won't let you talk casually about what see at work ("My boss got fired")...

    Won't let you talk casually about your working environment ("I use a fast PC with two monitors")...

    ??

    I have to ask, if you work for a private company, why would you let your company control that level of detail? I'm all for not blabbing about all the details of your work, but where do you draw the line? Does it make you untrustworthy to talk about minor things at work (and, yes, getting a truckload of computers at work IS a minor thing)?

    TW
  • by Directrix1 ( 157787 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:23AM (#7337834)
    No, Microsoft develops some Mac software correct?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:33AM (#7337947)


    MSFT does Mac software, so DUH?
  • by Nintendork ( 411169 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:36AM (#7337986) Homepage
    Hell, of the people I know that have worked at Microsoft, two of them really like Linux, and one kept a Tux doll in his cubicle. MS doesn't really care about something like that -- they care about potential leaks, or precedent being set that could lead to future leaks.

    I'll back you up on that statement. I was supporting Microsoft products (Windows 2000 Professional. Then NT Server, Services for Unix, Services for Macintosh, and Proxy 2.0.) through an outsourcer and had plenty of contact and meetings with regular employees as well as temps (a- accounts). There are several employees that are fans of other OSes. Heck, I personally had a big 20th Anniversary Macintosh poster in my cubicle. Microsoft understands diversity and embraces it in the company.

    On the other hand, if you come to work taking pictures of internal affairs and publish them on the web with blatant intentions of making your employer look bad, how the fuck do you expect them to react!?!

    -Lucas

  • by rlowe69 ( 74867 ) <ryanlowe_AThotmailDOTcom> on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:38AM (#7338010) Homepage
    Since then, I've had 2 other friends (A teacher and a programmer) go through almost the same thing, and they've all put passwords on their sites. I would recommend ALL bloggers to do that if they decide to post anything about work, co-workers, etc if they value their jobs.

    Here's a brainstorm: How about you just don't say anything about work in your blog?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:46AM (#7338081)
    Or more likely - is there any interpretation under which he could be considered to possibly be in violation of the agreement?

    Agreements are almost always subject to interpretation. Since firing a temp doesn't require going through a court of law, they could interpret it any way they wanted to.

    Had he been a normal employee, firing would possibly have needed a justifiable cause, although AFAIK in the US this depends on state laws.

    There are a lot of things in employment contracts that are unenforcable or can only be enforced within a narrow interpretation (non-competes, in particular).
  • by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:49AM (#7338118) Journal
    Come on, the camera as security issue is bogus. What are you gonna do, stop everyone with a cell phone because you can now snap 1.2 megapixel pictures with some models and send them in real time?

    Yes. It wasn't long ago that there was an article on Slashdot about how some big Japanese company with a research wing was banning the use of camera cell phones.

    Even companies that allow people to carry them may have policies against use of the camera on company grounds. This is difficult to enforce, yes...but as it happened, if someone posted pictures to a weblog and an exec got ahold of them, they'd know that they were taking pictures.

    No, it wasn't even a question of security, because the first question they asked him is if it (the page in question) was hosted on a Microsoft-owned server (wtf - they couldn't even do a traceroute? oops, forgot - this is Microsoft, not the most tech-savvy company out there by a long shot).

    This is unreasonable on your part. Microsoft is not limited to paying for machines in the MICROSOFT.NET and MICROSOFT.COM domains. A number of companies use cohosting/colocation services. Microsoft, if working on a project, especially with outsiders, could easily be using a system not in their regular domain. Sure, it probably wasn't going to be true, but it likely provides the company with legal ammunition (there may be a policy against non-work-related personal use of Microsoft-owned systems), and they then have witnessed claims from him.

    If it had been, they would have sacked him for misuse of company property. Since they couldn't they went to their fall-back position, which is that it was a breech of security to let the general public know where the building was located - never mind that the location is already public knowledge - city hall has it, the public utilities have it, the phone company has a detailed layout of the whole site, delivery companies have it, former employees have it (unless they're being mind-wiped on termination), yada yada yada. It's not a secret, so their excuse was typical microsoft bullshit.

    They almost certainly aren't trying to prevent people from knowing the "location of the building". You didn't read my post -- I was arguing that they were worried about precedent-setting and possibly the contents of the loading dock itself.

    As far as preventing leaks, this is a company with a history of leaking like a sieve halloween is here - we want more halloween documents, just like their products.

    Ridiculous. Microsoft took reasonable precautions -- this is legally significant if a leaking employee gets isolated and a trade secret case can be made -- to keep those memos secret. They were probably not sent to outside addresses, etc. There is no way a company the size of MS can stop internal memos from leaking completely, and leaks in the past *certainly* do not mean that the company should throw up their hands and give up on plugging current leaks.

  • by steevo.com ( 312621 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @11:50AM (#7338125)

    What if a temp employeee took a snapshot of a bunch of Dell computers being unloaded at the loading dock? Would he be fired?

    Yes.

    I am not a big fan of Microsoft, but they acted in their best interest. I have worked inside of several of the largest computer / technology companies, and there has never been a question about the no-camera policy. Every NDA I signed has specified that I can't bring a camera on campus without permission. (This has caused some problems for the folks with cameras imbedded in their mobile phones.)

  • Re:Paranoia? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jdvuyk ( 651327 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @12:10PM (#7338267)
    It seems a pretty stupic move from Microsoft to NOT have the information removed tho. If they simply requested it to be removed, give him a stern talking too and get on with life, very few people would have been the wiser.

    Now however, half the geek world and anyone else who cares to take a look sometime in the future can look all they like. It has now become wide public knowledge. NDA or not the knowledge (no matter how useless) is now widely public. How NOT to manage the situtation....

    This is all a lesson in working for a large corperation and really has little to do with microsoft or the computer industry. But its should be in Microsofts interest to keep this to a minimum, publicly speaking.

  • by Rary ( 566291 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @12:13PM (#7338293)
    "...painting the company in a bad light...(a)s far as the G5s go, why wouln't MS want them?"

    Everyone here seems to be commenting about the fact that it's obvious Microsoft would have G5s. They do, after all, develop Mac software. So then, why is it "painting the company in a bad light" to point out the obvious fact that they happen to have some G5s on campus?

  • by lone_marauder ( 642787 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @12:22PM (#7338371)
    He clearly leaked information the company considered private, and he should be sacked.

    I call bullshit. The photo was taken outdoors, and I doubt the mere acquisition of G-5s could be considered private information. Unless they are stolen, somebody has to know they were purchased.

    I think it's a case of Microsoft being pissed off because of perceived embarassment. That the firing is more embarassing to them than the photo was is yet another example of how damaging the mass neurosis is that separates them from truly long-term successful organizations.
  • by Our Man In Redmond ( 63094 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @12:24PM (#7338392)
    Nothing worrisome about it. He works full time at Microsoft, but he's paid through a contract agency. And yes, it does make firing him that much easier. That's one reason why they do it, but usually where it comes into play is if a project gets cut back they can let contingent staff go without having to worry about severance pay and the like. Another is that it costs Microsoft less to pay for him and let the contract agency worry about benefits, payroll taxes, etc.

    Like I said, nothing worrisome, companies do this all the time. It's purely a financial move. In fact some companies these days are made up almost entirely of contractors, hired for a particular project, paid and sent on to get another job.

    The main thing contractors at Microsoft have to suffer through is a 100-day "break in service" every 365 days, precisely because there's already been a lawsuit over the practice. Google for "Microsoft" and "Vizcaino", or go here [bs-s.com] for the Vizcaino lawyers' side of the story.
  • by Lars T. ( 470328 ) <{Lars.Traeger} {at} {googlemail.com}> on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @12:39PM (#7338558) Journal
    On the other hand, if you come to work taking pictures of internal affairs and publish them on the web with blatant intentions of making your employer look bad, how the fuck do you expect them to react!?!

    If they think Even Microsoft wants G5s is making them look bad, they better not read the stories about how they fired that guy.

  • by Patik ( 584959 ) <cpatik AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @12:41PM (#7338579) Homepage Journal
    They banned Furby's because of the recording chip.
    Why don't they ban cell phones alltogether? You could easily call up a voice mail box, drop the cell phone in your pocket, and record a couple minutes of audio that way.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @12:54PM (#7338723)
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  • by tomhudson ( 43916 ) <barbara,hudson&barbara-hudson,com> on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @12:55PM (#7338734) Journal
    fud, fud, fud.

    Criminal trespass is the unlawful access by a person to anothers' property. Your example (McDonalds) is not only lame - it's not true. I can walk into a McDonalds (not that I would - I've been boycotting them since they started making pizzas) with a group of friends, order a meal, and start snapping pictures of our little party.

    If they were to even try to physically confiscate the camera, I would be well within my rights to call the police and sue for assault. So, where was the trespass? Hell, I can even take pictures of what is plainly in view and they can't say anything, as long as I'm there as a customer.

    They would have to have the "no cameras" ban posted prominently AS YOU ENTER THE STORE. Anything else just won't cut it in court. For example, you see the "No dogs allowed" sign (which I fortunately am allowed to ignore - lucky me, life isn't a total suck :-) AT THE DOOR, not at the back of the building.

    This is the same rationale that the MPAA wanted to ban text messaging because people were texting each other during the movie to say "the hulk sux".

    They're going to have to get used to the idea that, in a wired world, what goes on in public is available for public consumption and recording for posterity.

    It's the same as using your phone while in WalMart to call your buddy at CostCo to find out which of the two has the better price this week. Not only not illegal, but attempting to stop you would be a federal crime, as it is interference with a lawful telecommunication.

    Remember, just because most people don't know their rights doesn't mean that those rights cease to exist for everyone.

  • Re:so what ? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 1u3hr ( 530656 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @01:12PM (#7338898)
    The guy took digital photos of his employer's non-public building areas while there as an employee.

    So what? It's not a bank, a nuclear research facility, the changing rooms of Moulin Rouge; it's an office building. And if you look at the actual photo, it wasn't even that, but the interior of a truck making a delivery.

    MS, through hiring staff as "permanent temps" can fire them for no cause, so there is no legal recourse But what harm could conceivably be done to MS I can't imagine. It's hardly a secret that MS uses Macs, since they have a Mac Business Unit to port Office.

    And in all the places I've worked, no one has ever cared what snaps anyone took or what they did with them. I sense somehow that the "terrorism" angle is the subtext. It's become an excellent pretext for stomping on people's rights.

  • by WebCowboy ( 196209 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @01:26PM (#7339020)
    You're right--the blogger wasn't fired because of security reasons--the picture didn't reveal any secrets in their strategy. Hell, it's fairly common knowledge that BillG carted in Lisa's and Mac's from the start. MS makes a mac version of office among other products--how the hell are they supposed to do that without having access to Apple hardware?

    You're DEAD WRONG on another front--you infer that the blogger was wrongfully terminated because of "Microsoft bullshit". I'm a Linux evangelist myself, but in this case I think Microsoft did the typical and understandable thing in dismissing him. After all, do you think Red Hat would be happy if an employee released a picture of himself or a co-worker happily clicking around Windows XP at work, wrote an article entitled "We like BillG's stuff" and posted it on the internet? Doesn't matter WHO the employer is, I think he would've at LEAST had some interesting words with his boss.

    This guy was quite likely breaching conflict of interest policies by embarassing his employer. He posted a picture of a load of Macs coming off a truck in a loading dock and identified it as being on the Microsoft campus. Not a violation in and of itself. Then he proceeded to identify himself as an EMPLOYEE of Microsoft and the author of the picture! I'd say if he wrote a blog entry flattering to Microsoft (along the lines of "look--MS wants to be multi-platform and play nice with others"), maybe he would've kept his job.

    No..he was foolish enough to write a blog entry RIDICULING HIS EMPLOYER. ANY compnay would do the same thing if ridiculed by an employee in a very public forum.

    Coca-Cola would (and has) fired employees for releasing pictures of pallets of Pepsi sitting in a warehouse surrounded by Coke and making the suggestion that "Coke was trying to learn a thing or two from Pepsi" (Both Coke and Pepsi bottlers have policies regarding how competitors products are to be handled on their premesis--you could be fired for drinking a Coke product in a Pepsi lunch room, particularly if you are caught with it by media representatives or a plant tour group).

    GM would not tolerate the publication of a person identified as a GM employee enjoying a cruise in his Ford Mustang--if that employee was a willing participant in the activity.

    Even a local mom-and-pop pizza joint would take issue with an employee eating Domino's in view of customers-or even just talking about how he or other employees prefer the competiton.

    Was termination justified? I'm not quite sure. Some form of discipline, however, is completely understandable.
  • Re:so what ? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dipipanone ( 570849 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @01:33PM (#7339077)
    Many companies have policies about photographing the work place which can lead to termination if broken.

    Sure. The company had every right to do what it did, nobody would dispute that.

    The more interesting question is, was firing him a reasonable response, when he would have been perfectly happy to take down the site and no further damage would have been done?

    As I say, Microsoft have every right to behave like the Stazi in the way that they manage their workplace, but in that case, I'm pretty damn sure that I wouldn't want to work there.

    Others might be only too happy to be employed by vindictive, power-crazed arseholes, and I wish nothing but good luck to them in what is sure to be an eventful if somewhat frustrating and humiliating career.
  • Oh no, Macs! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Snowmit ( 704081 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @01:38PM (#7339121) Homepage
    You know, last time I checked, Microsoft developed a lot of software for Macs. In fact I'm prety sure I read an interview a few years ago with the President of Microsoft Canadam where he saidthat, on average, Microsoft makes more money per Mac sold than per PC sold. This is because of all of the extra competitors in the PC Office etc. market. Plus there's that whole Microsoft owning a big share of Apple thing.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @01:42PM (#7339170)
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  • Re:so what ? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @01:50PM (#7339256)
    I disagree. I see no harm in what he did. You couldn't see anything except for G5's and a truck.

    Comparing it to him carrying an uzi around is outrageous.

    A more likely story is that this guy pissed some people off, and this gave them an excuse to can him?
  • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @01:56PM (#7339322)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @01:58PM (#7339348)
    Parent poster is totally right about this. If my company found me posting pictures of their facility on some blog I would be fired on the spot.
  • Re:Non-issue (Score:3, Insightful)

    by budgenator ( 254554 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @02:03PM (#7339404) Journal
    MS bought a few Apple G5 machines. and the next time MS buys a few Apple G5, three of them are stolen off the loading dock after they've been signed for would it still not be a firing offense? The guy just let the whole world know,
    1. where the loading dock is,
    2. What high value items are recieved on the loading dock.
    3. physical security isn't enough to keep unauthorized photos from being taken.
    4. MS extends the security thru obscurity paradigm to the real world as well as the cyber-world.
  • Re:so what ? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by chicogeek ( 688521 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @02:05PM (#7339432)
    How in the world did this get marked 'Troll'? This guy is right on and just because he doesn't support the /. Mac-fanboy position he gets moderated as a Troll. Come on...
  • Re:so what ? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by krawz ( 662049 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @02:07PM (#7339444)
    I can understand Microsoft's concern about this gentleman's "breach" of security. I myself work in the R&D department of a major automotive manufacturer. In most cases, new employees must sign a non-disclosure form upon being hired, which outlines the do's and dont's of security, photography, etc. Being a temp just makes it that much easier for them to let you go. If, on the other hand, this guy had been an exec, I'm sure the issue would have been buried. This may be rightfully viewed as favoritism or contrastly just plain logical on the part of Human Resources. After all, temps are pretty expendable.

    Bias against Microsoft of course plays a big part in people's judgement as to whether the action was right or wrong in a moral sense as well since a large part of the masses is either anti-MS or hears so much anti-M$ propaganda, that they believe it must be so.

    The bottom line is, read all the papers you sign, and know the policies of your company before taking actions that you are unsure of. This story should never have gotten press from Slashdot in my humble opinion, and stories like this cannot create an unbiased atmosphere for discussion, when the very essence of this story leans toward anti-MS propaganda.
  • by rifter ( 147452 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @02:10PM (#7339481) Homepage

    I have access to a Top Secret research lab. Just for fun, I could disclose exactly how many Dell workstations they've purchased in the past two months(98, bringing the total to 214). I really wouldn't expect they'd care.

    I don't think so, either, but they are the judges of that, ultimately. However, you did not disclose the name and location of the building in which these computers were housed, the department that works in that building, and the exact computers, with pictures. That is what this guy did, and why they fired him. All in all, I would say this counts as proprietary information.

  • Re:so what ? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by scenic ( 4226 ) * <sujal@s u j a l .net> on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @02:16PM (#7339548) Homepage Journal
    the picture wasn't of any "facility" but of a truck, 2 palettes of G5's, and some trees. Not a buidling (save the loading dock at the bottom edge) in sight.

    Look, you can say that they have a right to protect whatever, but the photographs have no discerning characteristics. He even took care to make sure of that. More importantly, the photo is of just macs... which we all know they get because they have a Mac unit.

    So... your theories are great but ultimately not relevant. If they truly cared about future incidents they could've asked him to take the photo down, reprimanded him, and then sent email to the company asking that people don't do that.

    But, instead they just fired the guy. Your theories don't mesh with the other facts.

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @03:55PM (#7340526)
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  • by serutan ( 259622 ) <snoopdoug@geekaz ... minus physicist> on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @04:07PM (#7340642) Homepage
    I don't think it matters that an employer isn't the government. If people can be materially punished by employers for expressing personal views in public, or in this case, making a trivial statement of fact, then people don't have the freedom to speak their minds.

    There are many other cases where editing or suppressing employee speech is perfectly acceptable. For example, newspapers aren't obligated to print whatever their reporters feel like writing. But employers shouldn't be able to take punitive action against people for making non-libelous statements on personal websites.

    Here's a great idea for a startup: create software that mines postings in online forums like Slashdot, associating online personas with actual people and looking for evidence of insubordination or unacceptable opinions. No subpoenas necessary, no court orders, just screen scrapers, AI and a database. If you worked for a large company that could afford such a service would you feel free to speak your mind online?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @05:21PM (#7341411)
    this incident seems similiar to their operating system. Have no security in place to keep a incident from happening ( no security to keep cameras/pictures from being taken in the first place ) then over-react later, once it's too late.
    (i.e. issue a patch to address the vulnerablilty but don't fix the real problem) At least they are consistant.
  • u sure? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by MoFoQ ( 584566 ) on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @05:38PM (#7341585)
    it sure smells like free speech and since there weren't any technical specs nor anything revealing except the fact that there's a bunch of g5's, it's difficult for me to say that it's a security violation. More like retaliation for spilling the beans on m$'s stragedy (which everyone in the world already knows).
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 29, 2003 @10:37PM (#7343802)
    I honestly don't know who told his boss about his BLOG but I do know one thing: there are a LOT of BLOGS out there and looking it up for one guy could be a daunting task. How and why did his boss look up this guy's BLOG? Or, if he didn't, this guy should keep his BLOG a fucking secret from his employers from now on.

    I can attest to one thing, though: Microsoft is filled from the ground up with assholes, from the security guards right on up the ladder to Gates himself. As corporations are (legally) entities that cannot die I wouldn't mind seeing someone take a few pot-shots at this immortal just to see what happens.

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