Taking a Closer Look at the P2P Subpoenas 276
An anonymous reader writes "Cnet is reporting a federal appeals court on Tuesday scrutinized the details of a 1998 copyright law, wondering whether it permits the wide-scale unmasking of alleged peer-to-peer pirates by the music industry." The issue, of course, is the constitutionality of the DMCA subpoena process which is among the more evil components of the often-criticized law.
The problem with "John Doe" lawsuits... (Score:5, Interesting)
William
New Bill In Congress (Score:5, Interesting)
"'There are no checks, no balances, and the alleged pirate has no opportunity to defend themselves,' Brownback said when introducing the bill. 'My colleagues, this issue is about privacy, not piracy. 'This will provide immediate privacy protections to Internet subscribers by forcing their accusers to appear publicly in a court of law, where those with illicit intentions will not tread, and provides the accused with due process required to properly defend themselves.'"
Promising? (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Looks like there are some politicians listening to us, a little. And a republican! 'Course, the senator is looking to defend ISPs, but the byproduct is defending the users of that ISP from having their privacy violated for no reason.
2. Looks like there may actually be some traction happening on this issue - all prior "looks" by judges at this issue has been a quick dismissal of the concerns.
Don't Like:
1. The judges are not bothering to consider whether the DMCA is constitional, nor if the way it is being abused is constitional, but whether or not it was intended to be used the way it is - this is NOT a good sign. It isn't going to help on the larger issue, but maybe it'll clean up the smaller one.
2. Ginsberg doesn't seem to understand the difference in usability for the average user between an FTP site and a P2P file sharing network. Not that his comments are invalid, but certainly the scope is very different. How do we educate our judicial system?
Anyway, some thoughts... take them as you will (I'm sure there are things I missed here).
Main thing I think we need to remind our congressman about - the RIAA is NOT a law enforcement agency, and should be slapped the hell down if they think they can step into that role.
Threats from the record industry side (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:pre-internet days (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course, you can get your indian friends (dots not feathers) to bring back LEGAL copies of $100 scientific texts that run for a couple of bucks in india. This is similar to DVD region encoding, but the cheap version is paperback on bad paper.
Re:poor guy (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:The problem with "John Doe" lawsuits... (Score:5, Interesting)
So, in that scenario, expect a higher percent of sympathetic defendents, rather than fewer...
Legal Perspective? (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe someone has answered this legitly elsewhere, but I would love it if there could be a little light placed on this question since IANAL.
If P2P networks such as KaZaA (et. al) share files in a directory that you have previously downloaded by default, can you truly be held liable for making them available without your knowledge?
Imagine this situation:
I find a friend to OCR scan a copy of a book (which I own legal copy of) to my word processor for "backup" so I can read it if the original is destroyed. Following that, someone comes over to my house, and finds the file which is aptly named and copies it to a disk, and is subsequently caught possessing his "illegal copy". Can I be held accountable for giving him access without my knowledge?
To me it seems these P2P networks automatically make these files available with little knowledge to Joe User trying to find someone who Ripped and Encoded the latest Jay-Z song for use on his new iPod, which he could possibly own, and have a right to possessing a backup.
I know that just because you don't understand a law doesn't mean you can't be held accountable for it. I know distributing files is illegal, but if I don't know they are being distributed via my PC because I'm not "technically adept" is that a crime?
RIAA has to connect ISPs to infringement... (Score:5, Interesting)
It boils down to how the RIAA is trying to obtain the names and if the ISPs are a participating member of the "theft."
They have the right under the law to get the names of the offenders before they bring suit.
This seems reasonable.
They've chosen to go after the ISPs because they'd have the easiest (if only) way of identifying which people are the "thieves."
HOWEVER, just because the RIAA has the right to go after the names doesn't automatically mean the ISPs have to give them up.
I think this will boil down to deciding who is culpable in the pirating of music. If the RIAA can prove in court that the ISPs are actively infringing on the copyrights, then they'll be open to be sued to get the names of their "accomplices" (ie, Joe Downloader).
However, if the RIAA can't connect the ISPs with the downloaders, then they might be SOL.
It is a similar question faced by gun manufacturers. People would like to see them be liable (responsible) when someone dies from a gunshot wound. I believe it has been held up in court that simply providing the means to commit the crime *isn't* a crime when that wasn't the intention. Put more plainly, if the gun makers intended people to use the guns in crime, then they would be liable. However, since they provide guns for other legal uses, the fact that they can be used for evil isn't a strong legal point.
To make the point more obvious, it would be like making car manufacturers liable when people use cars to run people over. Absurd, I think you'd agree.
I'm hoping the courts will make the similar connection and stop the RIAA subpoenas. To this point, just because the ISP provides the network connectivity that makes P2P pirating possible, it wasn't the original intention. Hence, they aren't delivering a service for the purpose of supporting illegal activity... they're not directly culpable... so they should be able to tell the RIAA, "find your names on your own."
Wireless networks (Score:5, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:2, Interesting)
Alleged (Score:0, Interesting)
These guys should be punished for violating the copyrights of the music industry.
Re:Political Appointees (Score:3, Interesting)
This has caused problem for more than one president who had hoped to stack the court only to find that the appointed judge did in fact have ethics.
OTOH, the elected judges tend to be the ones that might rule more often on the basis of personal prejudices and personal gain. These judges, like all politicians, have war chests to fill.
Re:It-Doesn't-Matter-To-Them Dept. (Score:3, Interesting)
I mean, these are the guys who aren't happy with the over-reaching Patriot Act -- they want a second act that goes even further. And according to recent press they've begun giving the nudge to prosecutors to find ways to get non-terrorists nailed on terrorist charges to radically increase the penalties for other violations of the law.
But of course, all those of us who think that the government would ever transgress our liberties are just paranoid terrorist supporters...
Re:Poor babies.. (Score:2, Interesting)
What makes you think this is the only viable mechanism? There may well be a way to allow a certain amount of file sharing without completely destroying CD sales. Sure, a lot of people say they want copyright law abolished, but most people are reasonable, and will accept a compromise whereby they can get some free music.
File sharing will eventually be dealt with, one way or another, whether it is eliminated or legalised, I have no idea. We just have to wait for whoever has the solution.
Re:Poor babies.. (Score:3, Interesting)
More to the point, is file-sharing theft? Since the evidence shows a strong correlation between file-sharing and CD sales, I would suggest that file-sharing is marketing, not theft.
And I'm not the only musician who thinks that way... See story [ajc.com] from yesterday's Slashdot [slashdot.org].
Re:Promising? (Score:5, Interesting)
Where exactly is the line? 2 friends? 20 friends? 100 friends? The line needs to be clearly spelled out when we're talking about something being legal vs. illegal. Just imagine fuzzy speed limits. Or fuzzy amounts of weed that constitute "intent to distribute". This is the whole reason the judge doesn't accept arguments like "but I was only going 2 MPH through that stop sign, which was perfectly safe". And the next guy, "...but I was only going 3 MPH".
Exactly why do you seem to believe that loaning a taped TV show to a friend is legal? Is there some chapter and verse of US law which says so? (i.e. an exception to the general mechanisms of copyright law.)
So the original poster's question remains quite valid in my mind. Why is such a ridiculous thing illegal? Which reinforces my (many times repeated) statement that this whole nonsense about "Intellectual Property" is going to implode in upon itself.
Bigger picture (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Poor babies.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Ignoring this only leads to things like our famous Boston Tea Party. [knightstemplar.com]
Consider substituting "RIAA" for "East India Tea Company", "DMCA" for "Tea Act", and "music" for "tea", and things look awful similar to today's situation. Note how the people involved in the "overthrow" are referred to as "Patriots". You would infer from this the "Patriot Act" would mean something completely different from what it does, ya?
Re:Threats from the record industry side (Score:3, Interesting)
I think the RIAA is signaling that in this sort of situation, they won't be willing to settle for the "small" amounts that they're currently settling for. I think under law they can claim damages far in excess of what their settlements have actually been. As some have pointed out, when you use a darknet and indicate you know what's going on is illegal. In this case, the RIAA may just say "we don't feel like leaving you with your house and car, we want everything." Since the courts aren't handing out the fines, there's no legal basis really for any of this. In a sense, this kind of posturing may backfire in that people may feel more comfortable going to the court system and rolling the dice instead of taking the more severe known outcome of a settlement.
Re:pre-internet days (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Slashdot ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: RIAA's problem with "John Doe" lawsuits... (Score:5, Interesting)
They want to be able to write you a letter, DirecTV-style, that says "we know you are a pirate, pay us $3500 or we'll send you to debter's prison" without having to come up with decent evidence (or any evidence at all). They want to send these letters to people who haven't even downloaded/shared music and extort money from them. Preparing an actual lawsuit will cost a lot, and if they screw up they'll get smacked by the counter-suit. Plus anybody can demand a jury trial since the potential damages are large enough. It'll be hard for the RIAA to get a jury without filesharers on it and the courts and congress will not take kindly to lots of jury trials for this kind of thing.
The next generation of P2P clients, which will provide forms of statistical anonymity, combined with DCMA exceptions, will make it extremely difficult to actually come up with evidence that anybody actually infringed on their copy right. The RIAA is just causing people to use stronger filesharing, which hurts our government's ability to find actual criminals. Not only does nobody benefit from their actions (not users, artists, or the government) but it's actually causing damange to everybody else.
Re:The problem with "John Doe" lawsuits... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Promising? (Score:1, Interesting)
Or is that left?
See for yourself. Fox's FAQ:
New Window/Tab [fox.com]
Current Window [fox.com]
Re:Promising? (Score:2, Interesting)
Television and radio networks offer TV shows and music in the hope that people will then listen to a sales pitch. As a result, when they deliver a show or song to your house, you own that copy of the show or song. Because you own that copy, it is legal for you to make a backup of it, or format shift it, or time shift it, and hand that exact copy to a friend. All of that is legal because of the right of first sale. The fact that time shifting is legal has been affirmed in several court rulings.
Don't get me wrong though. You only own the exact copy that was broadcast. If you duplicate it, then hand an extra copy to a friend, you're illegally distributing a copyrighted work. Of course, that brings up the whole ludicrous nature of the beast beccause the network really gave you an undefined number of copies, since you could have any number of recording devices in the house. But, if you try real hard to ignore artificial nature of the boundaries, it all kind of makes sense.
Re:Legal Perspective? (Score:3, Interesting)
RIAA guilty of hacking? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Not "much more complicated." More expensive. (Score:2, Interesting)
If RIAA tries to intimidate me and it turns out they're wrong, then when I counter-attack for vengeance, I don't want to just be able to say "well, they sent me a threatening letter and it hurt my feelings and stressed me out," because that will result in a judgement of $0 in my favor. I want to be able to say, "They falsely filed suit against me, and that required me to take expensive actions to defend myself, and here are the damages that I want RIAA to pay me."
John Doe's ID should only be revealed if RIAA is pretty sure they have a strong case -- and is willing to bet on it! This will deter fishing and gratuitous bullying.
I don't think that approach should be a problem for them, either. I hear there's a lot of real infringement going on out there, so they won't have problems finding it. Just be careful where you aim that gun, RIAA, because if you point it at me, I'll point something back.
Re:Threats from the record industry side (Score:2, Interesting)
yeah but.. (Score:1, Interesting)