Gov't Proposes Massive Homeless Tracking System 808
Chris Hoofnagle writes "The Dept. of Housing and Urban Development is proposing a massive system of tracking for homeless people and others who are served by shelters and care centers. The system will track people by their SSN, and will collect health (HIV, pregnancy) and mental information. Secret Service and national security agents can gain access to the database by just asking for it! EPIC has released a fact sheet on HMIS, and the public can comment on the guidelines until September 22, 2003, but no electronic comments are being accepted."
Sounds like a good plan. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not to be cruel, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
wouldn't it be worth it to spend a small amount of money on "tracking" if it meant a greate increase in the effectiveness of the help given to the homeless?
i don't know how effective the tracking is, or if it's worth it, but it might be. maybe spending the money there will get more people into homes, etc. or maybe not, who knows.
Re:Not to be cruel, but... (Score:1, Interesting)
This could at least provide some data on where they go and what they're doing. It could actually assist with what you propose. Consider how and where they should be motivating these people....spend money in the wrong place, and therefore has little effect, and funding could be snatched away for many years to come. I hate all the excessive planning the government is notorious for, but this isn't such a bad thing IMHO..
Re:Why do we kill Kenny? Because he's poor. (Score:5, Interesting)
Dead right. And despite the fact we call it paranoia, slashdot paranoia is absolutely nothing compared to real paranoia. I have a paranoid schizophrenic aunt, and for the implication of every program like this, there's a very real chance she'd risk starvation before going to social services agencies.
Care Not Cash (Score:2, Interesting)
RE: trade in your privacy now for some shelter! (Score:4, Interesting)
The "standard" line of reasoning basically says they want your current address because they need to be able to bill you for their services (income tax).
If, however, you're unemployed and don't have a physical address, you're by definition not a taxable citizen. Therefore, any "tracking" the govt. wants to do to these folks is for their own information-gathering purposes - and doesn't seem necessary to me at all.
As you pointed out, there's also the (very likely) ulterior motive of trying to skew the statistics in their favor, while saving money on paying for care for folks insisting on remaining anonymous.
As for the unemployment rate statistics, they're not really useful as anything more than a relative indicator of economic health. Consider this, though. Even those who turned to the "black or grey market" to scrape out a living are aiding the economy. They're providing goods or services (however questionably legal), and collecting money in exchange for those goods/services. Therefore, they cause others to spend some of their cash, which gives them incentive to keep working to earn more money to replace what was spent. The biggest thing that kills the economy is stagnation. The folks who have money are afraid to spend it, so the folks who don't have it find it very hard to get it.
Before we cry Big Brother, consider.... (Score:3, Interesting)
I tried helping a homeless Vietnam Vet named Ben. He wanted to see his family, whom he has not seen in 8 years. We were unable to track down his family. Ben was addicted to alcohol, and was missing a leg, from diabetes, a few years after the war.
His family was looking for him too, a lady called the shelter looking for her father. Unfortunately, we came to the shelter about a day later, and she never called back.
Such a tracking system would probably have reunited Ben with his family.
Re:Why do we kill Kenny? Because he's poor. (Score:4, Interesting)
Why not track their benefits? The gov't and private agencies track all of my benefits: SS benefits, income tax, disability insurance, health care status. By tracking the "benefits" the homeless recieve, the gov't will be able to provide better care and make better plans and budgets thereby saving the taxpayer money.
If they really want to live "off the grid" and not participate in society, screw 'em. They shouldn't get any gov't supplied and organized benefits from my taxes.
I've chosen to participate in society and will not support an individual who wants to live outside society, they're on their own.
As to the Secret Service getting the info at their own discretion, I'm against that.
Harry
Re:May be bad, but also good. (Score:5, Interesting)
That applies to everyone, whether they're homeless/mentally handicapped or not. Are you ready to be tagged?
I might end up in a serious car accident some day leaving me unconscious. It would be really helpful if I have some implant so medical personel could find out who I was and see my medical history. That doesn't mean I'm going to volunteer to be tagged and tracked like an animal though.
Re:What a crock (Score:3, Interesting)
Tracking the outpaying of social services, social security, disability, medication etc. Keep an accurate account of the numbers of the homeless and the economic trends that may affect those numbers. Althought without the economic means, how much do the homeless migrate? Even if its not state-to-state I would expect intra and inter city migration patterns would develop given time with this system.
Where is the breech of civil liberties? Where is the invasion of privacy if the Secret Service know a homeless person collected food from this shelter on Monday AND got soup from a different shelter cross town on Wednesday?
Honestly... I don't see the harm. They already track what I do based on my social security number, why should the homeless expect more privacy then I?
Re:Why do we kill Kenny? Because he's poor. (Score:3, Interesting)
I see major problems with collecting and distributing health data on these homeless-to-be-tracked unless they sign some kind of proper consent form. Otherwise you're probably violating some kind of doctor/patient priveledge or somethin or other.
Bill Collectors already have this (Score:5, Interesting)
Year ago I was homeless for a period of time, due to the fact that I was a teenager, my parents were dead and life is harsh. I fought my way back into society against it's better wishes.
I actually managed to put my first year of college on credit. Then they figured out I was a bum without a job. Later I paid it back, got scholarships and managed to finish. It wasn't easy, but all this sob story has a point and it ain't for sympathy.
I was hanging out in a particular location on a regular basis. I'm walking along and a payphone rings. Being bored and curious, I answer it. It was a bill collector! They had tracked me down to a payphone I frequently passed. Now tell me the government needs a new system, just give the homeless a credit card good for a nice sized bad debt. The bill collectors will track them for the government, no new system needed.
This has been planned for a while... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not to be cruel, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
How long before someone starts marketing to them? (Score:3, Interesting)
And, yes, I know the story indicates it would be a restricted government database, but I have to wonder if someone on Madison Avenue is already working on a privately held equivilent.
Just an idle thought (or as George Carlin said, "These are the thoughts that kept me out of the good schools")
The new reality.... (Score:2, Interesting)
I say this as a comment, without really having a solution. One interesting solution was reported on NPR recently, regarding an apartment building for the 'chronically drunk'....the idea was to give people a home, without the requiring that they stop drinking as a prerequisite. (PLEASE NOTE: I am not suggesting all homeless are drunks)....I would have thought this was a bad idea, but the results were somewhat surprising...yes, many are still drinking, but they are alive, safe, and off the streets, and a surprising number stopped drinking after DECADES of abuse....
Tracking homeless? probably a bad idea, but if one were to actually use resources to give the homeless viable places they could call home, you would gain the added benefit of knowing where they are...
end of my $0.02
Re:Not to be cruel, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
And that's ignoring the problems of mental health. Which are not minor by any means. E.g., I would personally estimate that many (not most, nor even close to most, but many) suffer from depression. I know that some suffer from advanced schizophrenia. etc.
Another group of them need, more than anything, a safe place to call a permanent address. (It might be only a lock-box.) Access to some safe place to store a change or two of clothes. Access to a shower and a washer/dryer. The basic minimum that one needs to hold down a job. Or to get one.
Other groups need other things. Few of them really need to be tracked. That's for somebody else's benefit. You have to really *trust* the government before you would feel that something like that was for your own benefit. And strangely enough, I don't think I know anybody who trusts the government that much. I've been employed by the govt. for 30 years, and I don't trust it that much.
Re:Not to be cruel, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The problem is... (Score:3, Interesting)
Already did.
I tried helping a homeless person. He did stay with me too. I fed him and cleaned him up a few times and tried to get him into the VA.
I tried to get him in all of the programs in the city, but nobody would take him. They said he already went there and would leave when his girlfriend, who is addicted to crack, came to get him. The system gave up on him. The social worker told me to stop taking care of him.
I'm still upset by this whole situation and I was in way over my head.
Ben, the homeless man, was afraid to die and wanted to see his family. I could not force Ben to make the right choices. It took alot of energy to try to help and convince him. Ultimately, he didn't make the right choices. He continued to drink and did not stick with any program.
I couldn't force Ben to help himself. Ben needs to make that decision. I could only open the door, not make him walk through it.
I just feel like there is very little return with alot of the homeless. If we invested more in helping people willing to help themselves (like the poverty in foreign countries), we can get a better humanitarian return.
I really don't know what to do about people who don't make the right choices. We can't really help them if they don't put forth the effort to help themselves. It's sad.
Killing two birds with one stone... (Score:2, Interesting)
...feed the homeless to the hungry!
This would violate HIPAA (Score:4, Interesting)
The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) was signed into law on August 21, 1996. This law includes important new protections for millions of working Americans and their families who have preexisting medical conditions or might suffer discrimination in health coverage based on a factor that relates to an individual's health. HIPAA's provisions amend Title I of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) as well as the Internal Revenue Code and the Public Health Service Act and place requirements on employer-sponsored group health plans, insurance companies and health maintenance organizations (HMOs). HIPAA includes changes that:
limit exclusions for preexisting conditions;
prohibit discrimination against employees and dependents based on their health status;
guarantee renewability and availability of health coverage to certain employers and individuals; and
protect many workers who lose health coverage by providing better access to individual health insurance coverage.
Here are some useful links:
HHS - Office for Civil Rights - HIPAA [hhs.gov]
What is HIPAA? [hipaaplus.com]
HIPAA.ORG [hipaa.org]
HIPAA - Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 [hipaa-dsmo.org]
The dissemination of medical information without the explicit permission of subject. I don't have a problem with tracking information about how social services are used; that's expected of any service to maintain reliability. However providing medical information to law enforcement violates even the most basic principles of the doctor/patient privilege.
Misrepresented facts (Score:3, Interesting)
First of all, the HMIS database isn't meant to track the homeless at all. The government believes that the number people being reported is double the number of homeless that there actually are. So the reason for the databases existance is to get a more accurate count of the number of homeless and to track statistical information.
Each persons is given a unique identifier that is associated with their information. They are not tracked by SSN. Every 6 months (I believe thats the time frame) a report is sent to HUD that contains the statistical information. There is no way to identify a specific person by looking at this information. HUDs guidelines are very strict on the matters of the persons privacy.
Also, there is no central database. The state of Utah actually has 3 different sections that would be required to run their own databases. However, we have decided to run the system as a state.
A person can refuse to give the information or not allow it to be shared with HUD. They can't be denied services if they do so. The majority of these databases are also encrypted to help ensure privacy.
The suggestion that the Secret Service would have easy access to this information was an assumption on the part of the author of the arcticle. Even if they did have access to it, they wouldn't be able to track the information back to a specific person so it would be rather pointless.
This could be a great tool for those organizations dedicated to helping the homeless. It will help point out locations and programs that need the most money.
Re:Some of them pick it (Score:3, Interesting)
With the help of Christ and wise counselors she has overcome them. There are lifetime effects, of course, but she's quite healthy and a wonderful mate to me.
Re:Not to be cruel, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you trust the SSN to track the homeless everyday in this system, why don't you trust it to track the homeless every five years and guarantee uniqueness of entries?
Pursuit of Happiness is not always someone else's (Score:2, Interesting)
a) Some people don't have a job per se, they have people work for them instead, such as by being a corporator or proprieter and taking a yearly draw from their organization's earnings, (including non-domestic defacto corporations run by hookers)
b) Taxation is only by consent, and there is no problem with paying no taxes when they are not receiving services that derive taxes. What part of Taxation without representation do you not understand?
c) Some people need to smoke pot for physical reasons, while some smoke it for neurological or emotional reasons. I am not anyone's master, I'm my own Master and at that I am a creditor. I do not dictate morality to other people and I do not adminster medical services to people WHEN THEY DON'T ASK FOR MY REGULATION OF SUCH.
d) Sadly, this is his choice.
The best thing you can do for your Father-in-Law is pray for his return to good health. Someone that feels the need to be drunk and smoke pot must have a serious medical condition. As for not having a job and not having to pay taxes, there is constitutional reason for such. And for being homeless, I probably met him because I also am homeless.
I registered on slashdot to respond to some comments on this forum. I am homeless and in my line of work I don't pay taxes because according to the laws established in this Republic there is not lawful authority that derives taxation of my life. For some background, I live in my car and do alot of travel because I work all over America in different parts of the year. Some parts of the year I will be punching cattle in Nebraska or Montana or Wisconsin, while other parts of the year (summer or winter) I'll be hunting or fishing or crabbing or writing code.
Re:I didn't say that there's NO problem (Score:4, Interesting)
And if these people fail your accountability test, what then?
Even if substance abuse is not a medical problem, how do we handle those who clearly have a problem?
What about the people who choose to not participate at all? Many people do not hold steady jobs, but do not collect benefits either. Often these are the people who are the most discriminated against, as in "they must be getting over somehow?"
And how do you determine who is "taking advantage" of the system?
Are the people who make lots of dough from government handouts, white collar crime, and profiteering from unecessary wars that were fought to defend us from non-existant Weopons of Mass Destruction (Cheney, Carlucci, others) that they advised the president about not "scamming the system" to a greater degree than the homeless?
How can we claim that universal healthcare is unaffordable when our government not only promisses such healthcare to the Iraqis but also gives foriegn aid in the amount of $2.8 Billion to Israel, which also offers universal health care to its citizens?
Do you think that your father in law really has paid less than $7,000.00 in his whole life as you claim? The maximum benefit for SSI is capped at $558.00 in most states. Or maybe you are talking about the retirement benefit, which is based on how much Social Security tax that you paid during the years that you worked.