RFID Will Stop Terrorists? 365
W33dz writes "Retailers and manufacturers around the world are enamored with the new radio frequency identification, or RFID, devices. The problem? What about when a thief or the police want to find out what you have in your house? Oddly enough, according to a Wired magazine article, the United States' largest food companies and retailers will try to win Dept of Homeland Security approval for radio identification devices by portraying the technology as an essential tool for keeping the nation's food supply safe from terrorists. This will give them blanket immunity from all law suits related to the product."
Article has wrong focus (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, these things aren't just going to be attached to foodstuffs. They'll be used in clothing and other personal effects that you'll carry with you at all times.
The article fails to mention this. Frankly, the article reads like the sort of propaganda piece the industry would put out.
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:2, Interesting)
Think how cool it would be for the individual though. You could instantaneously inventory your belongings. Lost your keys... just whistle up the RFID embedded in your keychain.
What I'd like to see is a way to uniquely setup "ownership" of RFIDs. Like you enter your uid and pwd into a scanner, and all of "your" RFIDs in range reply.
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:3, Informative)
And that would be great, provided it wasn't corrupted too, that is, that governments weren't able to hijack the system and use it to track its citizens.
I don't follow your logic (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't their being incompetent actually an argument for their not having access to this information?
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:3, Informative)
Thanks for Ashcroft, asshat. You obviously vote Republican.
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:2)
You say that like there's something wrong with it.
Score: -1, Flamebait.
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:3, Informative)
You obviously have no idea as to what the political position is of anyone in office. Democrats are just as "guilty" of poorly thought-out legistlation as Republicans. Members of both parties are given to rash, ill-advised, and hasty decisions made in the name of "National Security." A little education might be in order before you go making such blanket statements as the one above. I suggest you start here [house.gov], here [vote-smart.org] or here [cdt.org].
And how you got modded as Informative and not a
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:5, Insightful)
But once all those signatures ARE in place, all it takes is one bored tech to browse through the system. It happens all the time at the IRS -- bored employees checking the financial statements of celebrities, friends and enemies. Cops doing intensive background checks on their ex-girlfriends, etc.
Government initiative are like a massive boulder. A bitch to get moving, but once it is going almost impossible to stop.
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:5, Funny)
With each step in this process I have detailed, things become more and more implausible. Retail store having database records of purchases, likely, I am willing to believe. Government getting access to database, not too likely but possible with warrants or something. Government having device that can read the tags from a distance great enough to use it to effectively track your movements, probably next to impossible. I doubt these things are detectable at a range that would make tracking people practical. If you are willing to believe the government has the resources to put the trackers everywhere, on every streetcorner, without anyone knowing or getting upset, for budgetary if not privacy reasons, well...
Another obvious problem is what happens if I resell my shoes, or donate them to charity, or any number of other things that could cause inaccurate information in the database.
Finally, isn't it legal to observe people in public places? That is the very definition of public, a place where you cannot control being observed by others. The government might as well be looking at you if ten or twenty people you don't know personally are. I'm not saying that if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide, or some other silly thing. I just think expecting privacy in public is unrealistic.
However, such a system would make this exchange possible -
Spook #1: Hey, she's going to the mall again.
Spook #2: Looks like the shoe store. Lemme see, yep, she's buying more shoes.
Spook #1: Why does she keep selling them off for cash? It makes her harder to track.
Spook #2: Dunno, maybe she likes to keep up with shoe trends.
Spook #1: I think she's a goddamn terrorist.
Fourth Amendment (Score:3, Informative)
Time for a law lesson!
The Fourth Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in
Re:Fourth Amendment (Score:3, Informative)
How is a system that tracks your movements through a public place any different than a police officer looking at you? I think if you are in public, you
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure they can come up with an algorithm for when you sell/give something. Say you're always carrying 15 RFID's at a time, if one of those shows up on another person then it'll get flagged as being shared.
The more you think they can't do it, the more they're able to do it without you noticing.
Privacy is not a crime [privacyisnotacrime.com].
Answers (Score:5, Informative)
They already have you beat on this one. Gov't can already access commercial databases without your consent when you purchase an airline ticket and get to the airport. This is a new color-coding system that they assign a color code to each passenger and to their "threat level".
See above. If they do it to the airline industry, they can extend it to other industries as well. E.g. they can get your threat level before you enter a railroad station, public parade area, football game, concert, etc.
They could equip FBI, local police, and maybe even security guards with such devices - I don't see a problem here. As far as privacy concerns - yes there are and will/would be a lot, but the attitude that you express doesn't help that. Even with the airline passengers color-coding system, where did these privacy concerns get? Almost nowhere with only one major admission that the gov't will not store your color-coded data for more than certain period of time.
Charities that are accreditted as charitable organizations by the federal gov't could be required to report all RFID tags that they have received or transferred.
Will these types of devices draw us closer to licensing products to you and not selling them? Could it be illegal to sell an object equipped with RFID because it contains someone's IP, plus you'd probably be supporting terrorists? That's a far-fetched, yet interesting thought.
This has already been answered by others. Gov't cannot invade your privacy by tracking your every move and recording it without a probable cause, at least according to the U.S. Constitution anyway. But who's paying attention to that silly thing nowadays?
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:3, Interesting)
I wish I could agree. I think that terrorism, and most serious crimes, happen because some people are, for lack of a better description, innately evil. Perhaps they are responding to injustice, but their response is to amplify it, not to fix it. There have always been people like this, who are frequently incorrigible in their behaviors. Unfortunately, they do not respond to kindness, even though nearly everybody
Re:Article has wrong focus (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the article sounds pretty skeptical to me. Title is "Claim: RFID Will Stop Terrorists"--already they're distancing themselves from that assertion. In fact, I'd say the article is pretty cut & dry in saying "RFID companies are trying to speciously use the issue of terrorism to push privacy-eroding RFID into nationwide use."
AHA!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Now how did you *know* I was wearing a tinfoil hat????
I rest my case.
Let's see... (Score:2)
No offense, but I don't think that deduction requires an RFID. ;)
No Supprise. (Score:4, Insightful)
The way the game is played.
So if ... (Score:5, Funny)
Drown him!
Prediction (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Prediction (Score:5, Funny)
Great... You Want Chips With That? (Score:5, Funny)
Sorry, let my paranoid side get the better of me for a minute. I'm sure it's all for the best
Re:Great... You Want Chips With That? (Score:2)
Besides - if the legal protection is only for if the object (rfid) fails during a terrorist attack I don't see the point - surely it would only fail .... by working (and therefore giving a false positive)
Re:Great... You Want Chips With That? (Score:2)
That is because you are solving the wrong problem. This is not about terrorism but about earning money. RFID tags have no influence on terrorism at all, but with the level of understanding the public has of these things, they are just trying it. Remember when the US gouvernment claimed that outlawing encryption would prevent terrorism? Turns out that terror
Re:RFID used to track pets... (Score:3)
Prediction: first pedophiles, then common criminals, then anyone wanting to get a job with a company... finally, everyone.
If you're agin it, you're a terrorist enabler. Maybe even a terrorist yourself.
Maybe we'd better chip you, just in case.
Re:Great... You Want Chips With That? (Score:2)
Re:Great... You Want Chips With That? (Score:3, Informative)
Remember, these things are designed to be detectable in the bottom of a stack of pallets. Your gut ain't no problem.
Re:Great... You Want Chips With That? (Score:3, Funny)
Yes! Ultimate Solution! (Score:5, Funny)
Or maybe not...
Re:Yes! Ultimate Solution! (Score:3, Funny)
Hmmm... (Score:4, Funny)
hmmm. (Score:5, Insightful)
What major backlash is coming from the "weary public"? I have said this a billion times before. No one outside of our geek culture has any idea what this is. If it's not on Network TV's latest reality show, it's not real. I am too lazy to find my other posts about my attempted discussions with co-workers about their privacy being invaded with Patriot I and II and how they look at me as if I am speaking Greek. "You mean you do something other than watch Paradise Hotel?" (this isn't a slight exaggeration).
People have NO FUCKING clue what is going on in the world around them. I deal w/100's of people daily who freely give out their SSN to me to look up their records. I specifically ask if they know their student ID first (even though it's a unique identifier, it's not as bad as just throwing out your SSN everywhere) and people just utter, "uhhh, no, but I know my SSN!"
So if people are so willing to just give up their nationally unique identifier, you really think that they are paying attention to RFIDs? Go outside of your cube and ask any non-geek, "do you know what an RFID and how it impacts you personally?" or possibly, "do you know what the Patriot Act is?" I guarantee that they won't have a clue what an RFID is and they will say something like "do you also talk in letters?" and they will seriously believe that the Patriot Act is something having to do with the military giving missles to another country (if they are even THAT clueful).
Post your results here please, I am seriously interested if this is just a localized phenominon here where I live (my gf, her co-workers, my friends, and my co-workers are 100% clueless when it comes to anything privacy related), I would like to know what the rest of the non-geek world sees.
Re:hmmm. (Score:2)
In life there are huge numbers of issues, which are important, but people are of the opinion that they not worth their time. (e.g. physical looks, financial situation, the plight of the aboriginal peoples of the Antartic.)
Respect their opinion and don't get too excited about things you can't control. You'll live longer and get along with people much better.
No its not local (Score:2)
At some point, after talking to yourself for so long, you just throw in the towel and do what YOU need to do . Let everyone else fend for themselves.
Remember, you are an "armed" techo-geek. The very fact that you know and understand this stuff puts you MILES ahead of everyone else. That
Re:hmmm. (Score:2, Interesting)
SSN is a wonderful identifier. The problem isn't that someone knows my SSN, the problem is that far too many organizations use it as a password. That, IMHO, is a very bad thing.
As for radio tags, I think of them as cookies in the physical world. If they were encrypted properly, you could even block other people from knowing what the tag really says. All
Re:hmmm. (Score:2)
We go above and beyond was is required of us by FERPA.
This is a surprise to you? (Score:3, Insightful)
You sound like this is some sort of surprise. Well, it isn't to me; people are clueless in general. Huge swaths of humanity don't know how their car works, which century the Civil War was fought in, that the sun is a st
Its a global problem (Score:2)
Its also how a fascist/totalitarian/police/etc states come into power... By the time the little guy notices.. its too lat....
Re:Its a global problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Not a new phenomenon and democracy does only help so far. After all Hitler was voted into office. All it took was a stalemate between the other powers, a talent for making speeches and the right promises.
Make no mistake, people: Any democratic government can be replaced by a totalitarian one if the voters are blind for a decade or two. Signs aof this happening: Constitutional
Then sir, You are a fool. (Score:3, Informative)
Example? the Britain banning all weaponry, incrementally, until the peoples rights to defend themselves are almost totally gone now. Or cameras on most every street corner, monitored by the police..
I could go on, but since you choose to live in a fantasy world where the government is benign ( which is by definition contrary to reality ), I wont. That's why I chose couple rather simple examples.
Perhaps after you have no ri
Re:hmmm. (Score:2)
Re:hmmm. (Score:3, Insightful)
"The people who had once bestowed commands, consulships, legions, and all else now longs eagerly for just two things, bread and circus games."
- Juvenal
Re:hmmm. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:hmmm. (Score:3, Insightful)
I want you to show me where in my post I said that I was?
I want you to get a clue, and re-read and then re-think what you said. Obviously you are trolling.
What I did say was that NO ONE PAYS ATTENTION to this stuff. No one reads anything outside of the sports section and the front page. No one is scouring the net looking for what information they can find about what is going on "behind the scenes".
People these days w
I do that with manners! (Score:3, Interesting)
A few nights ago while shopping some lady in front of me brought at least 50 items to the express lane, I was behind her. I followed her out to the parking lot and told her that if I ever caught her doing that again she'd pay for my time with her blood. That's one less asshole in the e
Food recalls are rare (Score:2)
They hardly ever do it and only after threats from goverment agencies.
For meat products, by the time that they do get around to recalling things, the vast majority of the product is already sold. The longer the companies wait, the less they have to accept as returns.
Don't forget, RFID will save the children, too! (Score:2)
RFIDS are not invincible (Score:3, Interesting)
As such, they can easily be evaded. In fact, it's easier to tamper with RFIDs than barcodes simply because of the fact that tampered RFIDs are as not visually identifiable as barcodes (i.e. The naked eye can see if someone's ripped out the barcode or taped something over it). Any man with motivation can buy a RFIDs reprogrammer on EBay, walk into Walmart, and effectively make all boxes of whole wheat cheerios identify as gold-pressed latinum. Imagine the riots that could occur at the checkout lines when old ladies have to pay thousands of dollars to satisfy their daily intake of fibre.
All that tampering can be done without drawing attention to the culprit: you can hear a person cut or rip a box apart, but you can't hear binary code being reprogrammed through a contactless RFIDs programmer.
There are greater dangers than old ladies not getting their recommended daily intake of fibre.
Re:RFIDS are not invincible (Score:4, Informative)
Re:RFIDS are not invincible (Score:3, Funny)
My mother-in-law lives with us.
Sorry, but you are totally-wrong, squared, dude-guy.Re:RFIDS are not invincible (Score:2)
Any man with motivation can buy a RFIDs reprogrammer on EBay
At least until the RFID manufacturers take a page from DirecTV's book and sue anyone who buys an RFID reprogrammer.
Oh how wrong you are (Score:5, Informative)
RFID tags have a very small amount of READ ONLY memory on board, which is used to store their unique ID. Furthermore, the devices to not have the functionality to write to the memory, even if it was writable. So you can be sure no one will ever buy a RFID reporgrammer on Ebay, well... maybe they will, but you can be sure it's a hoax and they got ripped off.
Secondly, they DO send out the signal. barcodes need a clear direct line of site to a scanner to be recognized. RFID tags work in a much different manner. A scanner could be put in every light post in a city to monitor the RFID tags planted in tires, and track individual cars (or general traffic patterns). Worse, due to the nature of the technology a directional antanne could be used to read an RFID tag from large distances.
In conclusion, your comment is crap.
Re:RFIDS are not invincible (Score:2)
(a) I would assume the great majority of RFIDs (and certainly the ones on the cereal boxes) will be read-only. No point at all in making them rw.
(b) How much are you willing to bet we won't get a law saying reprogramming a RFID is to be considered a terrorist act..?
(c) It should be trivial to detect a RFID reprogrammer in operation -- it
Re:RFIDS are not invincible (Score:2)
If this is the case, and it becomes known where in the packaging the RFID is located then the point of using RFID can be defeated.
Whats to stop a terrorist from buying a bunch of boxes of cereal, removing the RFIDS and then putting these in their "WMDs"?
Now, I believe I read somewhere that the RFIDs could be as small as a grain of rice. Even if this is the case, its still big enough to be discovered and replaced.
What if... (Score:2)
Say the RFID's are manufactured with a fault which releases something into the food, a far shot I know. What if the RFID readers/etc cause some effect with the radio waves...
Far off theories maybe, but having immunity from something like this...
Ah, yes... (Score:2)
That would be the "Fear" part of FUD, right?
Seriously, read what you wrote and go think about it. I recommend doing so while making popcorn in your microwave. Or enjoy some food while talking on your cell phone.
Sheesh.
-T
Re:Ah, yes... (Score:2)
Now 'read what you wrote'...
What next?
Re:What if... (Score:2)
At least until the RFID manufacturer's take a page from DirecTV's book and sue anyone who buys an RFID reprogrammer.
Re:What if... (Score:2)
RFID tags (Score:2, Insightful)
I want RFID because... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm still working on how to get them dried and folded.
Re:I want RFID because... (Score:2)
Re:I want RFID because... (Score:2)
I, for one, am perfectly willing to sacrifice a measure of privacy for robot slaves. WHO'S WITH ME??
Re:I want RFID because... (Score:2)
Well I, for one, welcome our Skynet Overlords!
-T
DANGER, HAYZEUS, DANGER! (Score:2)
Hey, coppertop, didn't you ever watch "The Matrix"? What about "The Terminator"? It's people like you who'll cause the greatest catastrophe mankind has ever seen!
I say, if you want slaves, buy some Republicans or clergy; that's all they're really good for.
I'd suggest you go with "helper monkeys", but anyone who's seen the Planet of the Apes movies knows where _that_ leads.
"Having numbers burned into your forehead ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:"Having numbers burned into your forehead ... (Score:2)
I've actually considered getting the latter.
But will it stop evil megalomaniacs? (Score:2)
There is this really cool thing called a garden (Score:2)
Damn it! I'm next then! (Score:2)
Those ignorant clods!
Let's think this through (Score:2, Insightful)
Everyone's up in arms about identifying things we buy, and I'm sensative to that. I have no 'good ole boy' network that I fence diamonds through from Rio, no drug involvement, and nothing that I couldn't account for, standing in front of my Mom...so as long as the information is correct, I have nothing to worry about tracking.
But the uncertainty comes in them getting it wrong; one byte's difference might be all it takes to identify me as someone else, and that, for me, causes the stress.
There's one thin
I design RFID stuff (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I design RFID stuff (Score:2)
Re:I design RFID stuff (Score:2)
Re:I design RFID stuff (Score:4, Insightful)
Uh huh, right.
Assuming the RFID has a globally unique serial number in addition to a UPC code, then all that has to happen at the register is for that serial number to be marked as, "purchased." Then when you walk out the door, the computer sees the serial number, looks it up in the database and sees that it's been purchased, and doesn't sound the alarm. A software-only solution that's much more "cost-effective" than designing the extra circuitry for a killable RFID.
It also has the added "benefit" of allowing the retailer to scan the cloud of RFID numbers coming off you as you enter the store (or even as you stroll past the entrance), thereby triggering special discounts or incentives ("We're having a special on shirts that match those pants you're wearing.").
In effect, what you're working on will afford unprecedented snooping powers to government agencies as well as corporate entities (who, unlike government agencies, don't even have to pretend to be accountable). And, of course, it will do absolutely nothing to improve public safety.
Schwab
That's Nothing! (Score:2)
Nuke the suckers! (Score:2, Interesting)
Paranoia (Score:5, Funny)
The goverment is out to get us man, they want to know every fart let in your house. THE MAN is trying to KEEP UP DOWN. Sure they may say that these sewer traversing robots are for laying down CAT5 in the sewer, but I know the real reason.
Each of these robots is SECRETLY equipped with a miniature spectrometer, which takes your sewer water, and breaks it down to determine its chemical makeup. All this information is then passed back to the DEA to assist so they can profile which houses do, and which houses do not have drug users living in them.
Now they are preparing phase 2 of the program for use by the USDA to profile the eating habits of Americans. By secretly implanting RDIF tags into your food you poop becomes a "stool pigeon" on your eating habits. The USDA will use this information to adjust prices on certain key products to help promote growth in our sluggish economy.
Just say no to RDIF. It's worse than you can imagine.
No blanket immunity (Score:2)
Since terrorists don't tend to buy lots of ... (Score:3, Insightful)
And even if they are technically not terrorists, they are an impediment to the recovery that the administration keeps declaring is happening any day now. Which is practically as bad as being a terrorist. Maybe worse. Either way, Hello Guantanamo Bay!
What's Wrong with this picture? (Score:3, Funny)
Quick!
There goes Osama bin Laden out the door of Walmart with a whole case of Gillette razors!
Ron Paul R-Texas: seeing the light (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congre
(sorry about the URL - seems a space gets put in between the 7 and the 1 in cr071003)
Anyway, who does this guy think he is, calling the Bush gang empire-building big-gummit perpetuatin' neoconservatives?
He better watch his back out of his rear-view mirror around the two shotguns and three rifles in his pickup truck rack, the terrorist-loving pinko.
In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
Two Issues (Score:2, Insightful)
RFID technology (Score:2, Informative)
"War on Terror" is the new "War on Drugs" (Score:2)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Drugs can be a threat to society. Terrorists can be a threat to society. But is our only response always bound to be a blunt-instrument, simpleminded "war"? Non-Americans often perceive us as politically naiive and unrealistic, fo
Mmmmm...smells like a panacea (Score:2)
Next thing you know, RFID will stop kidnapping, child abuse, Spousal abuse...why, with the amazing RFID we'll be able to find out why some guy just bought 10 bottles of amonia; heck that's bomb-worthy product! Or track all those KY jelly and condom sales...that stuff can be used for...uh, sex. And damn, if the Pope doesn't find condom use evil, you can bet your lubricated ass new ways of tracking deviants and listing frequent buyers will be established. And co
Hello John Anderton (Score:2, Funny)
Hello John Anderton, I see from the RFID devices in your stomach, that you ate a Super Combo Taco Deluxe combo meal with extra guacamole for breakfast. Come into CVS and buy some Pepto Bismol - CVS the only price you need.
Hello John Anderton, you've had those sneakers for a year. They're getting kinda ratty I bet. Come into Sport
News just in... (Score:2, Funny)
The Department for Homeland Security has just announced that putting 'locks' on your 'doors' will stop thieves burgling your house.
Latest research also indicates that umbrellas keep you dry in the rain, women like chocolate, oranges are not the only fruit and it's dark at night.
Calm down, the sky isn't falling? (Score:2)
Any skepticism? Anywhere? Bueller? (Score:5, Interesting)
Is this another blown out of proportion nothing? Don't we have enough REAL issues to face that we don't need to make up new ones? One poster below talks about how only the geek community knows about this stuff. Fine. But shouldn't the geek community also be able to filter out the real threats from the piffle? If someone has any reliable information that a privacy threat from RFID exists, I'd happily review it, but all I have found is stuff on websites devoted to the black helicopter set that requires these devices to do things that are quite basically impossible.
It all sounds like the scare a few years back about the metal wires in the new dollar bills that were supposed to magically transmit their values from hundreds of feet away, through walls, to any G-man with a Dick Tracy scanner-watch. I think those people moved on to believing airplane contrails are full of poison chemicals or something.
So far all I see is a way to get out of a store without having to wait while Grandma writes a check for a pair of socks.
The General Rule... (Score:3, Interesting)
We do not know what functionality these "remotely controllable mini computer devices" offer today; we do not know what functionality they will offer in the future. But we do know that the functionality will evolve toward the functionality desired by the people who create them. And we know it likely won't be you or I building them.
Do you want to live in an environment swarming with millions of little computers all working to fulfill the desires of someone-who-is-not-you?
Consumer group against RFID (CASPIAN)... (Score:5, Interesting)
Those cards are easy to outwit... (Score:3, Informative)
I am one of a group of about two dozen people who use one phone number on one of our number's card. That ought to be enough to make their data practically useless
Tremble before the mighty microwave (Score:3, Interesting)
Now mind you, it's theoretically possible that microwaving your shoes would then violate the DMCA, but prosecution is practically unlikely unless Hilary Rosen is sitting inside your microwave right now.
In which case, set it to maximum intensity for an hour.
RFID "Poppers"? (Score:3, Interesting)
Small ones could become a problem for store owners who try to rely on RFID to catch shoplifters though.
Re:RFID, Terrorists, and other slashdot.com stuff (Score:2)
Re:Safety Through Reality (Score:2)
Re:how to counteract? (Score:2)
If they want interrogate my house to look for consumer electronic, guns, books, etc., then I am putting a Faraday cage around my house.
Re:ship one with every set of linux cds (Score:2)