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HavenCo In Trouble? 305

Evil Al writes "News.com is reporting on the talk given by Ryan Lackey, former CTO of HavenCo, at DefCon. Lackey claims that the company is teetering on the edge due to internal upheaval and lack of customers. Oh, and 9/11, of course."
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HavenCo In Trouble?

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  • i think... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by jeffy124 ( 453342 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @08:51AM (#6624751) Homepage Journal
    ...it's the more the fact the company only had a whopping six customers.
  • by joshv ( 13017 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @08:54AM (#6624774)
    These guys never had a workable business plan to begin with. They were selling bandwidth at a huge premium over what it costs just a few miles away in the UK. If you are able to pay that much, you are probably doing something illegal to begin with, and HavenCo won't host you.

    This was a solution looking for a problem that never materialized. The idea certainly captured the imagination of slashdotters though.

    -josh
  • Hrmm (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @08:55AM (#6624782)
    and what kind of sites were considered to be havenco material?

  • by sputnikid ( 191152 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @08:58AM (#6624799)
    There are no valid reasons why anyone would need to host anything at HavenCo. In the UK you can host the same site for half of what it costs at HavenCo... and for even cheaper in the US.

    Perhaps they were hoping that Napster would find refuge there?
  • poltiics? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by freedommatters ( 664657 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @09:01AM (#6624818)
    "The key lesson on this is if you're going to put a 'co-lo' facility somewhere, political and contract stability in that jurisdiction is very important" er, yes, and i thought the political aspect was meant to be one of the main selling points, ie, it wasn't governed by the UK. perhaps they should have sorted that one out before they tried to make their billions. surely they are just a very late casualty of the dot.com bubble?
  • by mblase ( 200735 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @09:08AM (#6624863)
    The "gimmick" for this business was that they could host sites outside of one's own country, thus protecting one from legal liability for the content. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it demonstrated that the legal responsibility for content on a web site lies with the site's owner, not the hosting provider, and thus the owner would be held responsible under the laws of the country where he lived?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @09:08AM (#6624865)
    Except that the article specifically states that the reason Lackey decided to leave HavenCo was because the Sealand "royal family" would not allow them to host a web site that would allow streaming copyrighted movies.

    It is also mentioned that Sealand does not allow the hosting of any activity that violates international law or can be connected to terrorism, so there goes your mobile nuclear bomb.

    Did you happen to read the article?
  • Re:Bad Publicity? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @09:14AM (#6624894)
    It's more likely that the king of Sealand is just exercising good sense. It has been noted more than once that Sealand has no real standing as an independent principality and that the British could take it over in a second if they decided that it was worth the trouble. I think the "king" knows this and is trying to maintain a low profile, probably moreso since 9/11.
  • by Kamel Jockey ( 409856 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @09:15AM (#6624897) Homepage

    they will host everything not forbidden by Sealand's law

    The only problem is that Sealand's Law is whatever their "Crown Prince" says it is. As quoted from the linked article:

    During an interview with the BBC, the family said it would readily "turn customer information over to the authorities if there was any serious problem with our stuff," Lackey said
    So no matter what the AUP may say, the real "terms of service," like the law in general in Sealand, is whatever their "ruling family" says it is. Companies like stable governments. They do not want to take risks dealing with governments that change the way they do business in a rapid manner. With this latest change, Sealand has become no different than any other jurisdiction in which internet service is offered. As a result, they can only compete on price, and with cheaper prices and more reliable service elsewhere, companies will skip over Sealand.

    Also from the article:

    Lackey ... said another problem was the Sealand family's tinkering with the network connection

    No company will want anything to do with any government touching their connectivity in such an arbitrary manner, especially when they are paying a premium for Internet Access whose claim to fame is that they "don't do that." Another thing Lackey mentioned was Sealand's attempt to tax its customers. That is another example of a bait-and-switch tactic which will drive away existing business and scare away future customers.

  • Re:Bad Publicity? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by AndroidCat ( 229562 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @09:43AM (#6625067) Homepage
    It reminds me of the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail when King Arthur and his knights were suddenly arrested and then the camera straight-armed. The End.

    Sealand's soverenty will last only until they cross over a line. And the line has shifted a lot closer since 9/11, Afganistan and Iraq. He's certainly no terrorist, but if he annoys someone or some company, they just have to get a court order and send the police over to arrest him. The British love an excentric, but that only goes so far.

  • by Blue Stone ( 582566 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @09:55AM (#6625149) Homepage Journal
    AC makes a very important point, I feel.
    The whole edge that HavenCo has over it's mainland competitors, is it's different IP "laws." With the Sealand "Royal Family" outlawing the exploitation of the difference in IP law, HaveCo is surely doomed to failure.

    I mean, what's HavenCo got to offer that's so special now?

  • by AndroidCat ( 229562 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @09:58AM (#6625165) Homepage
    That's all very nice, but it makes the assumption that it had any soverenty to start with--especially when it's not even an island. Not even an artificial island built with land-fill.
  • by sql*kitten ( 1359 ) * on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @11:05AM (#6625711)
    The only problem is that Sealand's Law is whatever their "Crown Prince" says it is.

    Sealand's law is whatever the British Government will let them get away with. A frigate's detachment of Marines could re-occupy the platform in minutes without breaking a sweat. The Crown Prince is tolerated because Britain has a tradition of tolerating eccentrics so long as they don't harm anyone. If Sealand were to declare that it was willing to break British laws wholesale, bearing in mind that it is strategically located, it would rapidly - and perhaps physically - cease to exist.
  • Re:i think... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by CaptainStormfield ( 444795 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @11:07AM (#6625731)
    It comes down to this: the UK has a colorable claim to sealand (they built it, its in their territorial waters but doesn't count as territory, etc.) However, the most critical fact is this: the UK has a large and effective army. Sealand has a couple of guys with shotguns (if that). If Sealand irritates anyone sufficiently, they're toast.
  • by arkane1234 ( 457605 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @11:41AM (#6626004) Journal
    It would be similar to the United States attempting to annex Cuba by extending the border a further 90 miles south.

    Oddly enough, I can see that happening. The coast guard finds 1 too many ships with Cuban cigars and Bush sends a carpet bombing campaign for 3 weeks straight to "liberate the oppressed masses". This of course done concurrently with a law stating the waters are extended temporarily to 300 miles "in order to protect America from impending terrorism".

    Hey, it could happen. I never thought in a million years that I'd see a time where a company is claiming ownership of Linux because of a couple lines of code, America occupying 2 other countries with the same ROE as Vietnam, and the rest of the world becoming more free than America.
  • by mcgroarty ( 633843 ) <brian DOT mcgroarty AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @11:53AM (#6626134) Homepage
    If you can't afford $500/mo for 64k you don't need HavenCo hosting.

    Maybe so, but if not enough people need HavenCo hosting for HavenCo to survive, perhaps they need to compete as a conventional provider at least long enough to fill in some of the dead slots. So long as the incremental cost of adding servers is less than the money each would gross, this is only common sense. If the incremental cost of adding each extra server actually approaches $500/month however, then they have some serious problems.

  • by Dun Malg ( 230075 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @12:05PM (#6626242) Homepage
    I think the official stance of Britain is that Sealand is a man-constructed object -- and as such, must be covered by the same laws as the only other man-constructed objects to ply the seas. (boats)

    You may think that, but that's not the case. It could only be considered a ship if it was in some way moveable. It's no more a ship than is a load of rock towed out to a sand bar and dumped. It's a fixed emplacement that was built outside territorial limits and abandoned. It may not be recognized by the crown and/or parliament as a sovreign nation, but the courts have definitely ruled that it lies outside their jurisdiction. This is de facto sovreignty, which is all that matters.

    Though I agree that, if they so desired, the british government could just waltz in there and say "ours. get off." and basically render the sovreignty issue moot. Posession is all that matters here, really.

  • Re:i think... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by raju1kabir ( 251972 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @12:57PM (#6626709) Homepage
    It was however outside of UK territorial waters at the time it was claimed. And as such was not under UK law. The UK extender their territorial waters around it when it was claimed.

    You make it sound like the UK increased the extent of its sea claims in response to the Bateses. Like many other countries during that period, the UK enlarged its territorial waters around the whole of its coastline.

  • by raju1kabir ( 251972 ) on Wednesday August 06, 2003 @02:22PM (#6627321) Homepage
    You may think that, but that's not the case. It could only be considered a ship if it was in some way moveable. It's no more a ship than is a load of rock towed out to a sand bar and dumped. It's a fixed emplacement that was built outside territorial limits and abandoned.

    I suggest you read the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, Part V, Article 60, Paragraph 8:

    "Artificial islands, installations and structures do not possess the status of islands. They have no territorial sea of their own, and their presence does not affect the delimitation of the territorial sea, the exclusive economic zone or the continental shelf."

    Sealand has no territory. It therefore can make no claims to territorial waters. Therefore the UK's 12-mile claim is not overlapping with any valid claims. Therefore Sealand is within UK territorial waters and has been for decades.

    Sealand has exactly two things on its side, one useless and one which has been to its advantage so far:

    1. The collective wishful thinking of a lot of science fiction readers.

    2. The inertia of a UK government that has not found it worth the hassle to go after some guys on a concrete pylon in the North Sea, especially when those guys are too wimpy to host anything more controversial than can easily be found in dozens of other countries, including the UK itself.

    I'll let you figure out which is which.

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