Yahoo! Settles Patent Dispute 164
theodp writes "NCR has settled the lawsuit it brought against Yahoo! last December for infringing on 10 patents related to e-commerce technology. The case, discussed earlier on Slashdot, was especially significant because it involved broad patents covering basic Internet functions. As part of the settlement, Yahoo! is now licensing the technology. Terms of the settlement and licensing agreement were not disclosed."
Urgh. (Score:5, Interesting)
The patents at issue in the Yahoo case cover "ordering and downloading resources from computerized repositories;" a "computer system for management of resources;" and a "mechanism for dependably managing Web synchronization and tracking operations among multiple browsers," among other claims.
Great. Just great. So now ordering stuff over the Internet is patented. Fine for Yahoo, Amazon or other large companies who can afford to license this crap, but what about smaller businesses?
Just one more step towards making the Internet a worldwide version of the Shopping Channel. Thanks, NCR. I'll remember you in my prayers tonight.
Re:Urgh. (Score:5, Funny)
I should patent "Method for creating a repository of methods to create goods and services reserved for use by their original designers for a predetermined period ". Then I'd sue the USPTO. Imagine the irony.
Re:Urgh. (Score:1)
Re:Urgh. (Score:1)
I should patent "Method for creating a repository of methods to create goods and services reserved for use by their original designers for a predetermined period ". Then I'd sue the USPTO. Imagine the irony.
I think the USPTO wouldn't have a whole lot of trouble proving prior art.
Re:Urgh. (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, I don't know. They seem to have a pretty hard time in other cases...
Re:Urgh. (Score:2)
Hence, the point reiterated.
Stop Complaining (Score:5, Funny)
Buy a few and start sending out those threating letter yourself. Easy money.
The SCO way, is the only way.
Re:Urgh. (Score:1)
Dear Lord, Please Smite down NCR with thy Might Hand.
Amen
Re:Urgh. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Urgh. (Score:1)
Lots of people in this discussion seem to pay too much attention to the titles of patents. The title is not the specific invention being patented--it's a general description of it. You have to look at the claims. So just because the title says "computer system for management of resources," it doesn't mean that all computer systems that manage resources are covered.
That being said, these patents may or may not be frivolous. I haven't read the claims. Have you?
Re:Urgh. (Score:2)
"ordering and downloading resources from computerized repositories" basicly could mean each and every database ever built which involves some kind of client/server concept (so we can get the downloading too).. some prior art there too, since a "SELECT"-statement is basicly an order on what to download.
Now, the third part in common English reads "se
Re:NCR IS TEH GAY! (Score:2, Interesting)
They are nowhere near as bad as Microsoft. But, if corporations continue to bend over, they might get that bad.
they were at the start of the 20th C (Score:5, Insightful)
Then the directors were to be thrown in jail but went on a big PR drive and raised money for US flood victims and avoided the slammer.
you can read about that here
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Watson
He joined Computing-Tabulating-Recording Co which he changed to IBM. Watson foresaw the empire building of the Nazis and made a nice business model by having European census data collected by IBM ready for when the Nazi occupation arrived and leasing them Hollerith machines to process it. You didn't think they regimented the lives and deaths millions of people with pencil and paper now did you?
You can't read about that here
http://www.watson.ibm.com/t_j_watson_history.h
But you could try here
http://www.edwinblack.com
These things seem so far away but we are still dealing with the consequences of these actions. I'm sure you all know someone who was in the fighting.
Millions of people were killed, many by virtue of having hole 12 punched in their card.
Census data had been given to previous government who mainly saw value in being able to manage their economy with real numbers. The new landlords used the data for whatever they liked and they liked killing people.
That's why I don't want my biometric data kept somewhere
It might sound daft but imagine in 100 years time when you are on the train to the deathcamp because "your grandfather clearly states his religion as "Jedi" in the 2001 census".
Because 1/4 Juden was all it took.
If that's not related to YRO I don't know what is.
Re:they were at the start of the 20th C (Score:1)
that's not my argument (Score:2)
That innocuous submission comes back to bite you.
That the modern face of business is only a few phone calls away from crushing you.
Mechanised warfare moved from swords to stocks & shares.
The war against the people never stops raging.
Faced with annihilation we get our comfort from apathy.
"BE WARNED: THE NATURE OF YOUR OPPRESSION IS THE AESTHETIC OF OUR ANGER"
hehe didn't mean to go off like that but when I do, I like it
no, of course I didn't, don't ask (Score:2)
Re:no, of course I didn't, don't ask (Score:2)
Re:no, of course I didn't, don't ask (Score:1)
Re:no, of course I didn't, don't ask (Score:5, Interesting)
In this case, doing the Right Thing(TM) cost more than doing the cheap and easy thing. It's sad because they can afford to license this technology from NCR, yet many small companies are left in the dust. And, the fact that they are now licensing these frivolous patents only gives the patents credibility, making it even harder for the little guy to escape.
I realize, corporations are financially self-serving; but that doesn't make it right.
Re:no, of course I didn't, don't ask (Score:1, Insightful)
If they settled and licensed it's because their lawyers told them to. In this country, just about any court case can be won given infinite time and money but when the numbers start looking astonomical, somebody just says "fsck it let's settle - i'm getting tired of this top
Re:no, of course I didn't, don't ask (Score:1)
Re:no, of course I didn't, don't ask (Score:2)
Obviously NCR is licensing the technology. Since they are the claimed owners they are the only ones who can do such licensing.
Yahoo! is buying a license.
While the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs is dying in English, Americans like to shoot them with a bazooka and then pretend it never happened.
KFG
Re:no, of course I didn't, don't ask (Score:2)
Boo! (Score:5, Interesting)
So technically everyone who runs a dynamic database-driven website that serves up content is violating at least three of the ten patents NCR holds.
Yet another reason to hate ATM machines...
Re:Boo! (Score:3, Informative)
Titles are usually overly borad, but have no legal imlications, in a patent, only the valid claims have legal imlications and they are usually much narrower.
P.S. IANAL...
Re:Boo! (Score:2)
And that's the sheer stupidity of it. According to NCR, basically anyone who has a dynamic site is likely violating their patents. According to the original article, they've sued somewhere in the area of 150 or so companies.
Incidentally, I hold the patent to posting long ranting replies that obfuscate whether I support or oppose an issue in question... can I have a check now?
I wonder... (Score:1)
Looks up the genome for Chinese people and quietly patents it
not disclosed (Score:5, Insightful)
They always say that, eh!?
I'd like to see a law passed where any time anyone settles out of court, the terms have to be disclosed.
Just because...
Re:not disclosed (Score:1)
Re:not disclosed (Score:3, Interesting)
Though I doubt that's legally possible, even if corporate regulation was popular around here.
Re:not disclosed (Score:4, Funny)
Rus
Re:not disclosed (Score:4, Insightful)
The solution is to abolish the laws which are exploitable and invite people to adopt force as a business model. The problem in this case lies in the exploitable nature of existing US patent law, not because of a lack of some law.
That's exactly what Government is for... (Score:1, Interesting)
Seriously, it's probably time for a grass-roots push for a Congressional Inquisition (oooo, he said "Inquisition" and even capitalized it!!!!) into the patent crisis that is contributing great harm to our economy.
Re:not disclosed (Score:2)
Yeah, that's right, lets settle IP disputes with gun battles! That would sure be better than an exploitable legal system!
Re:not disclosed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:not disclosed (Score:2)
Boy, that sounds remarkably similar to what we do with technology !
Re:not disclosed (Score:1)
Re:not disclosed (Score:2, Insightful)
Not Disclosed (Score:1, Informative)
Settlements between competitors in patent cases raise important and sensitive antitrust issues. The issues are important because patent settlements may create or maintain monopoly in technology and innovation markets and may also effectuate a monopoly or cartel in a related goods markets. Antitrust risks are highlighted by the fact that, absent the patent rights, p
Re:not disclosed (Score:1)
I'm sure Michael Jackson would have loved that idea.
I refer you to my post dt. July 02 (Score:5, Interesting)
The link [slashdot.org]
It's part of a larger scheme (Score:3, Insightful)
It used to be a company's business model was la
Re:I refer you to my post dt. July 02 (Score:2)
I always recommend having the sales prevention department run your marketing program. It's a lot like having accounting handle merchandising or sales run R&D...
Patents are evil for software (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed, for those of you who were here this morning and listened to the people in the software industry talk about how threatening this is to their businesses, as I see it, patents today are often entrenching the established at the expense of allowing the newcomer to come in. I question today whether a Steve Jobs could start an Apple or a Bill Gates could start a Microsoft in view of the web and thicket of patents that is out there.
Joshua Kaplan, Intouch
Oracle Corporation opposes the patentability of software. The Company believes that existing copyright law and available trade secret protections, as opposed to patent law, are better suited to protecting computer software developments.
Oracle 1994
The mind has always been sacrosanct. The claim that intellectual processes and logical procedures (that do not primarily manipulate devices) can be possessed and monopolized extends greed and avarice much too far. Algorithmic intellectual processes must remain unpatentable -- even when represented by binary coding in a computer; even when executed by the successor to the calculator.[..]The company for which I am speaking, Autodesk, holds some number of software patents and has applied for others -- which, of course, remain secret under current U.S. law. However, all are defensive -- an infuriating waste of our technical talent and financial resources, made necessary only by the lawyer's invention of software patents. Autodesk has faced at least 17 baseless patent claims made against it and has spent over a million dollars defending itself, with millions more certain to pour down the bottomless patent pit unless we halt this debacle. Fortunately -- unlike smaller software producers -- we have the financial and technical resources to rebuff such claims.
Jim Warren (Autodesk) 1994
The time and money we spend on patent filings, prosecution, and maintenance, litigation and licensing could be better spent on product development and research leading to more innovation. But we are filing hundreds of patents each year for reasons unrelated to promoting or protecting innovation.
Robert Barr (CISCO) 2002
Please help the Europeans to avoid Arlene McCarthys patent directive legislation. You shall sign the Eurolinux-Petition http://noepatents.org and support FFII http://swpat.ffii.org or other groups http://softwarepatents.co.uk
Talk to your EU representatives and tell them what you think about software patents, what they mean for your business. Stop the sausage machine as MEP Rothley (pro-swPat] denounced parliament legislation.
More information [ffii.org] about swpat-legislation in the EU.
Re:Patents are evil for software (Score:3, Insightful)
Auto Patents search? (Score:1)
Like: computer bottling swiftly beer?
Patents suck.
Good luck finding infringers (Score:2)
Unless you look in Japan [engrish.com] I guess
Re:Auto Patents search? (Score:1)
You've also got a sure chance of it being accepted. For example, everyone (or at least the patent office) understands that "Method of swinging on a swing" [uspto.gov] is different from "Method of swinging on a swing using a computer " or "Method of swinging on a swing
Fight Software Patents (Score:5, Informative)
I am not sure but if the EU starts to accept software patents will the US patents be enforceable through WIPO or similar. If so then the EU will already be at a loss as all the US patents will come into force and by typing this I am probably breaking a few of them
Re:Fight Software Patents (Score:2, Informative)
This will be the next step. See FFII swpat AG [ffii.org] for comprehensive details or join a Mailinglist patents@Aful.org or bxl@ffii.org
Re:Fight Software Patents (Score:2, Informative)
75% of those patents are owned by companies outside the EU. Now, this is what I call protecting your national software industry.... Or not!
Re:Fight Software Patents (Score:1, Informative)
No. Patents are only domestically enforceable. What happens with WIPO (and the "International Patent") is that multiple domestic patent applications are simultaneously filed through one, agreed upon filing mechanism. That is to say, you file one patent application, designate the States for which you desire protection, and then prosecute each of those applications according to the laws
another retarded patent suit.... (Score:5, Insightful)
what would ANY computer system be if it DIDN'T "manage resources"?!
Re:another retarded patent suit.... (Score:1, Funny)
"Microsoft Windows 95"
Re:another retarded patent suit.... (Score:2)
And on a bit narrower scope, practically every single, relatively modern FMS (flexible manufacturing system) house has been writing software that just exactly this. For years. Many years.
Tracking the current amount of goods, the throughput rate of said goods, transporting required goods to work locations from an automated warehouse, possibly even ordering needed goods automatically, ... - Hell, I have worked for one company that does software for this. It was never original, just practical application of
Re:another retarded patent suit.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Why is it mostly web applications? (Score:2)
Why do companies get away with patenting stuff which is reasonably obvious? The whole thing reeks of ridiculousness to the extreme. It's like the nightmares of post dot-com boom stress disorder in flashback.
The scariest thing is this: if Yahoo! are not big enough to stand up to stupid patents about web application technology, then who is? Take the Internet away, and this patent suit would surely
Re:Why is it mostly web applications? (Score:1)
Microsoft, maybe? What we need is some loonie with a patent to sue Microsoft and refuse to settle (that's where the loonie part comes in :->). Microsoft might have enough money and legislators to bring the system down.
patent office are retards (Score:2)
Seriously, the problem with software patents is anyone can look at them, say my evil competitor, has been granted a software patent. I can tell my R&D dept to take evil competitors patent and apply for patents on every concievable extention to it. The result would be after evil has been shiiping upgraded product for a year, my patent applied for becomes patent granted and I crush evil corp with litigation and
Re:patent office are retards (Score:2)
I just don't get it... (Score:4, Insightful)
Why does it not work this way in the USA?
Re:I just don't get it... (Score:4, Insightful)
There are a lot of ifs and mays in that reasoning. As far as I know it is fairly unusual for the judge to order the defendant attorney fees to be paid by the losing party, especially when the dispute is between companies. Furthermore, it is not at all obvious that they would win this, more ridiculous suits have been won (probably even by Yahoo itself). Win or lose, court battles are still orders of magnitude more expensive then settling; especially in these cases where the suing company wants a settlement to establish precedent, and make sure that the settlement terms aren't too burdening. In such a scenario the only reason left to fight would be on principle, and you'll find that American companies (as in most of the world) aren't that great in that arena.
Re:I just don't get it... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I just don't get it... (Score:2, Insightful)
Sometimes, a lawsuit is a good thing, and this might prevent good lawsuits.
RIP (Score:4, Funny)
... ad absurdum (Score:3, Interesting)
The point it that things are being patented that contain no innovation and require no research to develop. Sometimes they're not even developed at all, but still patented - just wild ideas.
Now it you look at the free software environment, there's tons of development going on all the time, including some substantial innovation - but hardly any of it registers on the economic "IP screen". The best one can hope for is that it can be used as prior art to shoot down some particularly silly patent.
To shortcut the argument: imagine the FSF or some such organisation going up to MS, SCO et al and being able to go "uh, no, dude, that's covered by such-and-such basic-tech-stupid-patent which belongs to - er, that would be us. Cash will be fine please. Repeatedly." - basically until it becomes clear to every last one of them that the economic environment just isn't going to work like this.
It all breaks down at the point that it sucks to formulate the patents, shove them through the [$laywer]-filter, have them registered etc. etc., and defend them. Plus, it costs a bit. And no, I'm not offering myself as a volunteer.
Ah, well.
Re:... ad absurdum (Score:2)
These are all things that should be obvious to anyone with a pulse, and yet they all got patented. The system seems broken, doesn't it?
These are all bona-fide US patents. I would look up the
Companies Behaving Badly (Score:5, Interesting)
Animals at best. Monsters even.
If a city had wild and dangerous animals wandering the streets, they would waste no time addressing the problem. Why is it that these powerful creatures allowed to perform intellectual, legal, monetary, and diplomatic harm to the US without any action being taken?
They're becoming mad dogs, doing harm to all they touch while crying out the whole time "We must remain profitable."
Well, that raises an interesting question:
If a corporation pays little or no taxes and refuses to employ Americans, does it really matter to the United States if they remain profitable or not?
Time to have a good look at some of these mad dogs and seeing just how much they deserve government contracts, tax exemptions, and other little perks.
If they want to dump Americans and not contribute to the economy, lets dump them. What harm could it do to get rid of a few leeches? A little bit of political pressure, get rid of a handful, that's all that would be needed. the rest would fall into line. Just like how the IRS targets high profile tax evaders and the RIAA targets the rich kids.
I know IBM is kind of popular around here. I kind of liked them myself until recently. But 3 million outsourced jobs? FUCK YOU IBM. You evict that many people form their jobs and that's kinda mass murder. The pain of 3 million people out of work. If all of them cried out at the same time you could probably hear them clearly from coast to coast, no matter where you were at.
There's an undertone of barbarism to all this. Brutal and cold hearted people who could give a fuck what happens to the rest of America so long as they get their golden parachute and stock options.
Corporations are given a lot of responsibility and power in this country. And in the course of the past 5 years alone, we've seen scandals that stretch the imagination from just about every sector. A bunch of evil children running amok with the keys to the nation.
Re:Companies Behaving Badly (Score:4, Insightful)
Bollocks. And where does it say that you have the right to a job - in particular to the same job you've held previously? The primary function of a corporation is to thrive financially and generate wealth for the society. If outsourcing is a realistic alternative, then that's what should be done. If it does not, there'll be soon no jobs for anyone. Better 3 million outsourced jobs so that at least some may stay.
There is no obligation for anyone to start a business. It's voluntary. Jobs are created as a positive side effect but corporations are under no obligation to provide SECURE jobs.
I am 32 and my job is on the line every 6 months and I'm not complaining. If my employer can't afford to pay me, there is no point in complaining. I don't have any expectations that I'll be working here in 24 months - but then again I rather like it that way.
Planning for the inevitable period of unemployment, stashing away money for a bad day and learning new skills outside the scope of my daily job keeps me sharp. I like being sharp, versatile and not getting too comfortable with my life.
I shudder when I think of people who think they have their life worked out at 25. They've got a degree, a secure job, a wife/husband, an idyllic house in suburbia, a car and 2.5 kids who are nice, clean and obedient and love you very, very much. All the goals they set themselves when they were 16. Nothing to look forward to? No unpredictability? No change. No growth. No improvement. Just living without being alive.
Re:Companies Behaving Badly (Score:3, Informative)
IBM doesn't even employ 3M people - you're not even in the same order of magnitude. If they outsource 3M jobs, they are *employing* an extra 2.75M people. Sounds like it'd be good for the world as a whole.
Re:Companies Behaving Badly (Score:2)
Well since the majority of the stockholders are americans who are paying taxes, yes. Remember individuals almost always pay a higher rate than corps do. Also more and more, companies are becoming commodities, consider this, workers from sub-contractors, company a building subs, company b doing finals, company c final packaging an another doing distibuting; th
Re:Companies Behaving Badly (Score:1)
Working as an engineer? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Working as an engineer? (Score:2)
What is the point? No matter what you do, you will be subject to bogus patents and absurd agency regulations. It is getting to the point where it is impossible to follow all the rules and avoid (or pay royalties for) patents. Even if you represent yourself, you will lose a major portion of your life in the court defending against the "a means of trasportation by putting one leg in front of the other" patents.
A better solution would just do business on the black market. Yeah, sure, you might be killed or p
Re:Working as an engineer? (Score:2)
Re:Working as an engineer? (Score:2)
Even so, how will becoming a lawyer turn out any different? If there are only lawyers, politicians and "towel boys" (whatever they do ;-), then none of the essential services will be done. I don't see contracting out our legal services to other countries as a viable option--they'll have their own lawyers (and probably decent laws so they don't need many). Politicans can't be contracted out at all...well unless they are being paid to betray their country. Towel boys? Let's see them compete with a $0.05/hr As
An idea.. (Score:2, Funny)
time for change (Score:5, Insightful)
It would be better for companies to defend their products as innovative, not the functions within them that make things work. Disney has done very well with copyright laws instead of resorting to patenting the process of stuffing winnie the poo dolls.
Re:time for change (Score:2, Funny)
The problem is the gold required to maintain it is atrocious, and your corruption rate goes through the roof.
Re:time for change (Score:1)
Self policing gov? / Disney is not innovative (Score:2)
You think you'll get the government to watch over itself? Good luck. Sometimes it happens, but not often. I may be good to try, but I wouldn't bank on it.
Yeah, but look at Disney's use of trademarks. Look up trademarks fo
Bread and Circuses (Score:5, Interesting)
NCR is the company where Thomas J. Watson Sr. learned the dirty tricks he needed to found and run IBM. By 1920, NCR had already perfected the techniques of capturing customers and smashing competitors (often literally, with sticks and stones). IBM did the same in a slightly genteeler way, Microsoft did the same a generation later.
So NCR is back and has cornered one of the few Internet success stories. Next, Google and Amazon? The patents appear to be so basic that they apply to every commercial web site, nay, every commercial software application.
Evil, dangerous, and cynically positioned to take advantage of other people's hard work and sacrifice.
Why does this kind of parasitical behaviour go unpunished? Because the ones doing it are part of the system, not outside it. Not only does the system allow this kind of abuse, it has pretty much evolved to support and protect it.
Conclusion: the modern political body is corrupt and survives by manipulating public opinion. Nothing new... two millenia after the fall of the Roman Empire, we are treated in the same way as the emperors treated their subjects.
Give them bread, and they won't complain.
Give them circuses, and they won't notice.
Give them security, and they won't fight.
Human nature lets such things happen, for a while. But eventually it revolts and the further it has been pushed one way, the more aggressive and reactionary the revolt.
If you want my website, you're going to have to prise it from my cold, dead hands.
Re:Bread and Circuses (Score:1)
Re:Bread and Circuses (Score:2)
Um, I think you're missing the point. The problem with most of these type of patents (haven't looked at these specifically, but I'm assuming), is not that they are so hard to implement that the "inventors" are too incompetent to implement them. No, the main problem is the reverse - they are too easy to implement, and hence a
Get on the bandwagon (Score:3, Interesting)
Generate a bunch of very broad ideas, get the patent office to grant patents on them and then contact all the big web based companies and offer to license the Intellectual Property to them, or else.
Tell me again why everyone isn't doing it?
Re:Get on the bandwagon (Score:2)
Probably because most people have at least some moral fortitude.
SB
Re:Get on the bandwagon (Score:2)
What are you talking about? My stepfather just patented a new remote controlled airplane design (shameless plug: here) not too long ago. I can't imagine it cost more than $500 at the MOST.
because to sue a big company you need cash..
This would be a bit more like the reason.
BTW, you've just responded to complete sarcasm. Congratulations. I could put YHBT here, but the thing is,
Re:Get on the bandwagon (Score:2)
It's supposed to be www.unicornventures.com [unicornventures.com] but I'm stupid and don't know how to do HTML tags.
It doesn't cost much to threaten a law suit. (Score:2)
I reckon there's a huge business opportunity being missed.
Lets find prior art and bury this bs (Score:2, Informative)
New business practices... (Score:4, Insightful)
Interview the US Patent Office (Score:2)
... revealed (Score:2)
2. Wait X number of years
3.
4. Profit!!!
Re:Bla bla bla... (Score:5, Insightful)
I wish yahoo had some guts and had decided to take it on. The patent system was never meant to uphold these patents. That's the point, and that's why we keep seeing these stories. If no one knows about it, nothing will happen.
I feel that action has to be taken, and that individuals as well as corporations this affects voice their opinion to congress and make them add some type of safeguard since the patent office is grossly handing out dangerous patents.
These are extremely dangerous patents. What if someone took a stove and added a keyboard to it and patented that. The two existed before. Does that mean that one should be able to patent the simple combination of the two?
Re:Bla bla bla... (Score:3, Interesting)
The simple combination of the two, no. But if someone came up with some neat way to combine said stove and said keyboard to do something unique/interesting/useful (aside from 'just sit there' and 'make friends question sanity'), then that is something that could be patentable. The proble
Re:Bla bla bla... (Score:2)
The thing about software patents is, the algorithms they're patenting already existed. It's just that a microchip is doing the footwork, instead of a human.
Ordering system. You call up or write up an order slip, put some item numbers on it, and give it to a guy. The guy looks at the inventory, makes sure it's there. He then packs your order up, while making a copy for another guy, who sends you an invoice based on your c
Re:Bla bla bla... (Score:2)
Or, you could benefit financially (Score:2)
Lots of patents, on everything. I mean, who cares what it is as long as it's nice and broad and you can threaten a lawsuit against numpties like Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Yahoo, Ebay etc.
If you play the numbers, it's clear that most of them will fold and license the "technology" from you. That'll fund more patents and more lawsuits.
At some point it'll all break and they'll have to reform the patent office and/or
Exclude it then ... (Score:4, Informative)
No. But if you like, you can always exclude the patent articles from the homepage in you /. preferences.
zRe:Which patent? (Score:2)