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Cringely On Electronic Tapping 225

sckienle writes "Robert X. Cringely, the PBS one, has an editorial discussing electronic wire-tapping and the Big Brother concerns. There isn't any new information in the article, but he does a nice summation of the state of law enforcement today. This may be a good article to show your family, friends and congressmen."
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Cringely On Electronic Tapping

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  • Big Brother 1.0 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Foofoobar ( 318279 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:01PM (#6417403)
    Yep, if Bush had his way, the law would assume that everyone is a suspect. Nostradamus has nothing on Orwell.
    • Re:Big Brother 1.0 (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:13PM (#6417548)
      I know the parent is going to get modded as a troll, but it's unfortunately true.

      "Enemy combatants" who never fired a shot at the US get locked up without legal counsel, and without even knowing the charges against them, for over a year and counting.

      Immigrants who are muslim locked up for a year or more without access to legal counsel, and without knowing the charges against them and often there aren't any!

      TSA in airports assuming everyone and their grandma is carrying bombs and patting them down. TSA assuming that nail clippers are terrorist weapons and confiscating them (they've relented on this one).

      Bush saying to the world "either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists."

      Doesn't get much clearer than this.

      • by dpilot ( 134227 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @03:09PM (#6418110) Homepage Journal
        Of course it does...

        A recent Time magazine had an interview with a woman who is a right-wing commmentator/author. Some of the more notable statements in the article:

        Liberals are anti-USA.
        The Democratic Party should just go away.
        "In that light, yes I am defending McCarthyism."

        It must be *good* to be SO certain in your views that public dissent and debate are unnecessary and unwanted.
        Or is it? Personally, outside of a few carefully chosen beliefs, I *never* want to be that certain.
      • Re:Big Brother 1.0 (Score:4, Interesting)

        by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @03:26PM (#6418283) Homepage Journal
        "Hey man...when everyone is out to get you.....

        ....paranoid is just good thinking..."

        Johnny Fever-WKRP in Cincinatti

    • It's amazing how many people do not understand 1984. If you did, you'd be spending more time complaining about what's going on in N. Korea and Iran, and less time claiming the US govt. is big brother because they have wiretapping ability.
  • Verizon Guy: Can you hear me NOW?
    FBI Spook: Yep!
    Verizon Guy: urk...
    • by t0ny ( 590331 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @03:33PM (#6418336)
      Honestly, Im less concerned about the FBI Spook eavesdropping on my conversations than I am about the Verizon guy or whoever else is out there.

      Any privacy concerns of mine have very little to do with law enforcement; at least they have to go thru background and psych testing before they get their positions. Communications companies dont test their techs this well, which is somewhat scary considering how much information they get access to.

      Remember that recent case where the tech for the credit reporting agencies was stealing hundreds of thousands of identities to sell to criminals? It's just another case in point. In the information age, who will guard the guards?

    • True story (Score:5, Funny)

      by SuperBanana ( 662181 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @03:50PM (#6418498)

      Verizon Guy: Can you hear me NOW?
      FBI Spook: Yep!
      Verizon Guy: urk...

      This is a true story, I swear:

      When I was in college, I knew one or two of the student sysadmins. One of the more flamboyant campus personalities(small campus) would, all the time, infer on the school newsgroups that the student sysadmins were reading other student's mail(they sysadmin'd all the non-school-administration servers). It always pissed off the student admins, because they didn't read other student's mail, and found the insinuation insulting.

      One day, this jerk was emailing a friend and made some nasty comment- something along the lines of "you better call me, the student admins here are always reading our email". Somewhere along the line, either he, or the friend, mistyped the email address- and a bounce of the message went to postmaster.

      The student admin grinned ear to ear and said "so I sent a reply to them both that just said, 'No we don't.'"

  • Well. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jonsey ( 593310 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:03PM (#6417438) Journal
    As long as the government can't control what we think...

    I find wire-tapping repulsive, but if it occurs more frequently (as the article sugguests it very may will, due to lax laws some places), people will start using phones like they do e-mail at work. People will just stop trusting in phones to quickly convey information privately.

    I know that I don't treat phones as perfectly secure, neither does the government.
    Stand by what you say! : )
    • Re:Well. (Score:2, Funny)

      by Webtommy88 ( 515386 )
      As long as the government can't control what we think...

      Or... at least I've already been taught/brainwashed to believe they can't control what we think.

      Control is a philosophy, and it can take many forms.
    • Re:Well. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Ptahian ( 113302 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:08PM (#6417501)
      Controlling how we communicate is a first step in controlling what we think. If we have to use a specialized language on the phone, then what's to stop that requirement moving to other areas (think microphones in public spaces)?

      It's double-plus ungood. Give me Liberty or Give me Death.

      -ptah
    • Re:Well. (Score:5, Funny)

      by Surak ( 18578 ) * <surak&mailblocks,com> on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:13PM (#6417542) Homepage Journal
      The government doesn't control what we think. No, not all. That's not propaganda you hear on the media, it's the truth. The media would never be used to propagate government lies. Nope. Never.
    • Re:Well. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by nanojath ( 265940 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:38PM (#6417782) Homepage Journal
      Stand by what you say! : )


      I'm sorry, but that is a piss-poor excuse for not standing up to the current administration's land-grab on our civil liberties, and congress' spineless acquiescence to the same. This is tantamount to saying, if you don't have anything to hide, why do you have a problem with the police searching your house/car/person?


      There are reasons why issues of civil liberties and constitutional rights tend to get publicized, exposed and worked out in cases involving people who (probably) did something wrong, and it isn't just because people are never wrongly investigated, accused or prosecuted. The reason we are less likely to hear about the innocent people who should have been protected by the law but were not is that the authorities have a vested interest in keeping them quiet. The victims often accept freedom from further persecution in exchange for dropping the matter, and more often than not noone in authority is punished for THEIR violation of the law.


      As long as the government can't control what we think...


      Yeah, tell that to Reverend Accelyne Williams. Oh, sorry, you can't - he's dead. Google his name and you'll end up learning about a whole lot of other people who were killed or otherwise violated when the Constitution let them down. But don't blame the constitution - it's hard to maintain your integrity when politicians keep pissing on you all the time.

      • The search [google.ca] (for the lazy)

        One of the more interesting links [independent.org]

        The article mentions that the Reverend died of heart failure during a no-knock police raid which had the wrong address due to a drunken informant...
      • I'm sorry, but that is a piss-poor excuse for not standing up to the current administration's land-grab on our civil liberties, and congress' spineless acquiescence to the same.

        Uh, off topic.

        From the article: Communications Assistance to Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), which was passed by Congress in 1994

        94. Under Clinton. Not current administration.

        • Off topic? The Bush administration is undertaking the largest land-grab of civil rights in US history, and you declare it off topic because CALEA (one of the lesser acts here) was enacted by the Clinton administration?

          Civil rights are being trampled TODAY in an unprecedented manner. Off topic, my ass...
          • It was clear from the manner of the post that it was Bush taking away your civil rights that bothered you, not the civil rights themselves. Hence, off topic.
    • As long as what? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Pac ( 9516 )
      You mean, as long as the government is not able to use the media and the Courts to convince the public a stolen ellection was clean or to lie extensively in order to gain public support for a special interest war abroad? Yes, I agree. But wait...
  • by Homology ( 639438 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:03PM (#6417441)
    that says that unless you are a criminal, you have nothing to hide and thus nothing to fear from the goverment.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Unless you are a criminal, you have nothing to hide and thus nothing to fear from the goverment.
    • by coyote4til7 ( 189857 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:12PM (#6417530) Homepage
      I just had this weird flashed and imagined "FBI Proposes putting Videocameras in every room in America to catch criminals" The inevitable first post might read something like this:

      I drew first post! I drew first post! And before any of you liberals spout off, unless you are a criminal you have nothing to fear from cameras everywhere you go. Well... unless you are a criminal or gay or really ugly in the nude or read socially unacceptable books or masturbate or pick your nose and scratch your butt. But, we don't like people like that anyway. This'll finally give us an excuse to get rid of all of THEM.
      • To which the response would inevitably be:

        YOU FAIL IT!

        Sorry, couldn't resist. :)
      • by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:36PM (#6417771)
        > I just had this weird flashed and imagined "FBI Proposes putting Videocameras in every room in America to catch criminals" The inevitable first post might read something like this:
        >
        > [...] Well... unless you are a criminal or gay or really ugly in the nude or read socially unacceptable books or masturbate or pick your nose and scratch your butt. But, we don't like people like that anyway.

        When the video cameras in private homes do come, I'd say it's precisely the ugly gay butt-scratching nudists who have the least to fear when reading naughty books.

        I mean, I'm nowhere near as uptight as the typical FBI guy, and even I wouldn't want to spend 8 hours a day sitting in front of a computer screen all day having to see the false positives the AI comes up with for human intervention.

        While straight, I'm sufficiently ugly that I doubt I'd be worth watching. (But just to be on the safe sice, I'll take up butt-scratching. I think one scratch every chapter should be enough. Maybe once every couple of pages if it's really subversive stuff like Ayn Rand.)

        As for you beautiful people out there, well, you'll get watched more closely. Sucks to be you. (But if you're so damn hot, what the hell are you doing reading Slashdot? Go 'way. This our turf! :)

      • That flash reminds me of a book... Go read 'Lacey and his friends', by David Drake. It's a set of short stories about a really screwed up cop (reason why not included due to spoiler). Every room, and I do mean EVERY room, has a camera in it, and they're all recorded all the time. Yet a few people still (in the book, almost) get away with murder.
      • X10, the makers of miniature survailance equipment have signed an agreement with the FBI to make sure no seductive women go unsurvailed at any given moment.
    • this also explains why the govt has so much it keeps secret.
  • Well now (Score:2, Funny)

    by Exiler ( 589908 )
    "There isn't any new information in the article"

    I'm glad Slashdot is sticking to the established traditions ;P
  • a (Score:5, Funny)

    by Lord_Slepnir ( 585350 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:04PM (#6417448) Journal
    This may be a good article to show your family, friends and congressmen."

    I'll have to do that quickly. They get suspecious if I turn off the Telescre^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HFreedomScreens or the PatriotSpeaker off for more than 30 minutes.

  • by SuperDuG ( 134989 ) <<kt.celce> <ta> <eb>> on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:09PM (#6417504) Homepage Journal
    Back before technology, spies would hide in places of conversation and follow targets and either remember what was said or write it down.

    The main enemy factor came when it was believed that a recording couldn't be faked and was garunteed to be genuine, it wasn't until it was proven that simple technology could fool even the best recording devices that this belief was debunked.

    The most incriminating factor will always be someone believably speaking out against you. Has been and always will be. Especially with Juries, people can tell usually when someone is lying and when they think that someone isn't lying about an acusation against you, then you're toast.

    It's been said before a long time ago, if you don't want anyone to ever find out about something never say it or write it down.

    • by prhodes ( 625766 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:32PM (#6417725)
      The most incriminating factor will always be someone believably speaking out against you. Has been and always will be. Especially with Juries, people can tell usually when someone is lying and when they think that someone isn't lying about an acusation against you, then you're toast.

      Not sure if this is exactly what you are referring to, but as DNA testing becomes more commonplace, so-called "reliable eyewitnesses" are being found to be mistaken more and more often. Seems that most people just aren't that good at remembering faces and/or exact events.

      • You have to wonder, though. How much of this forgetfulness is due to the amount of time it takes for the case to actually get to court?

        While I'm willing to concede that a large number of witnesses are simply full of it, or grandstanding out of some perverse sense of participatory thrill, I'm also aware that I couldn't possibly expect to remember what I was wearing as recently as last weekend. Imagine how hard it is to try and remember (under extreme testimonial pressure, no less) every detail of somet

      • by Gallowglass ( 22346 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @04:09PM (#6418692)
        Dang right! Most western police ofrces have an exercise during training where some other police officer comes in and does something loud e.g. points a banana at the instructor and yells "Bang!" After he leaves the rookie cops are to write down what happened. The resulting reports are never consistent across the class or even between individuals.

        The RCMP classes even warn them that this is going to happen so that they will watch carefully. Same results. No one remembers all the details correctly.

        The objective of the exercise is, of course, to let the rookies know just how un-reliable eye wintess testimony is.

        (I recently saw a story on Discovery about memory research that confirms this, but I'm just about to leave work, and I don't want this post to cut into my beer-drinking time ;-)

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:10PM (#6417511)
    This may be a good article to show your family, friends and congressmen.

    The NSA has already read it. Thanks anyway.

  • by BillsPetMonkey ( 654200 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:11PM (#6417520)
    But at a time when intelligence agencies are under fire for being not very intelligent, when our leaders are sometimes in too big a hurry to cast blame and take credit, we are building huge information gathering systems that we can't completely control ...

    In other words, when granny farts, smack the dog. What's new? Most of Cringley's article is ripped straight out of the original information source. A bit like my post.
  • There are others? (Score:2, Redundant)

    by grub ( 11606 )

    Robert X. Cringely, the PBS one

    Ahhh, the PBS one.. as opposed to Robert X. Cringely the nuclear physicist, Robert X. Cringely the investment banker or Robert X. Cringely the astronaut.
    • Cringer (Score:2, Funny)

      by StringBlade ( 557322 )
      He-man's cowardly cat.

      Oh wait...I was supposed to read the WHOLE thing?

    • Re:There are others? (Score:4, Informative)

      by hedronist ( 233240 ) * on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:22PM (#6417642)
      Yes. Robert X. Cringely was an invented name for a column in InfoWorld (I think). When the guy who was writing the column left the paper after many years, he took the name with him. Lawsuits followed, etc. He ended up reatining use of the name, but so did the paper.

      The "PBS one" is the original RXC.
      • Re:There are others? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by mbourgon ( 186257 )
        Actually, the PBS one is the one _we_ think of, but I remember reading an interview where he said it was used at Infoworld long before him, but he started using it for a column, using it exclusively, where before him it was used by many people at Infoworld as a byline.
    • Robert X. Cringely the Flame Thrower! Kids love it.
  • by Fu Ling-Yu ( 688545 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:12PM (#6417534) Homepage Journal
    From the China perspective this seem a funny situation for America. America say that everyone in America has freedom and to an extent that is very true, more so than other countrys. But then American citizens, writers, academics, so on, all claim that American military (DARPA being a department of which?) are using latest innovations to spy on people!

    I am sure American army has many more important things to do than spy on its own people. And the main question are.. would the army really give up highly valuable new military technologies to the domestic guard anyway?

    I cannot say much but I know that in People Republic Of China, we keep military and police very seperete. Although, being an 'academic', I do not need worry to such things so often...
  • Article (Score:5, Funny)

    by sulli ( 195030 ) * on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:13PM (#6417546) Journal
    There isn't any new information in the article

    But slashdot will post 2-3 stories about it anyway.

  • by Schezar ( 249629 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:15PM (#6417562) Homepage Journal
    This is why programs like Nullsoft's WASTE are going to be so important in the coming years.

    Networks of trust, wherein all communication is encrypted and idle channels are filled with random noise. Privacy may or may not be a right, but that doesn't mean you can't just fight for and have it.

    Granted, Big Brother can probably crack most encryption given time and money, but what if EVERYONE is using encryption? Different kinds, as well (geeks using a number of home-grown variants, the masses using Microsoft whatever...). Decrypting everything becomes less and less feasible. Is that a terrorist or some kid playing CounterStrike? An mp3 "pirate" or just a randomly generared noise packet?

    Encrypt everything. If they try to outlaw encryption, well... I'll get back to you on that one.
    • by StringBlade ( 557322 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:33PM (#6417738) Journal
      Encryption is already limited by governmental law. I believe 1024-bit encryption is the current limit according to the FCC and other federal bodies. The government doesn't want people to be able to communicate using an encryption algorithm that they cannot already break. IIRC, IBM had developed an incredibly strong encryption mechanism many years ago and were forbidden by the US govenment to implement it without relaxing the strength of they cipher. If I only had a link...
      • by Troed ( 102527 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:43PM (#6417836) Homepage Journal
        Lucifer [ecn.ab.ca], by IBM. Later known as DES - when the keylength had been lessened but the characteristics of the cipher had been strengthened against differential attacks (then unknown outside the NSA).
      • "Encryption is already limited by governmental law. I believe 1024-bit encryption is the current limit according to the FCC and other federal bodies."

        You sure about this? I've been able to make > 1024 bit pgp keys for years....

        I know there were/are laws about exporting high bit encryptions...but, didn't think there was any limit for domestic use...

      • The blanket statement of "encryption is limted by law" is not true. Domestic use of encryption is not limited by law, with certain exceptions. Certain applications of encryption are limited. You mentioned the FCC. Most radio transmissions are required to be unencrypted (ham, AM, FM, etc.) but general usage of encryption is not limited. I know that Louis Freeh tried to get a bill together providing for extra penalties for use of encryption in a felony, but I don't remember if that bill ever passed into
  • On hold? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:17PM (#6417576)
    From the article:
    "They can listen to what you say while you think you are on hold. This is scary stuff."

    Televoice: Your call is important to us. Thank you for waiting. The next available assistant will be with you shortly.

    Me: G****mit! What the fsck is taking so d@mn long?

    Gummint: Sir, we'll be there in 20 minutes to wash your mouth out with soap.

    Why precisely is it scary that they can hear you on hold compared to other times? I'd think it would be painfully obvious that they can hear ANYTHING you say into an open connection.

    Actually, what's really scary is there's nothing that says The Man couldn't activate the mic on your cell phone remotely, but not have it go into "call" mode, so they could just pick up everything you're saying. THAT is scary.
  • by redwoodtree ( 136298 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:17PM (#6417581)
    This is totally new information to me anyway. What's really bizarre about this is the fact that supposedly they just slap a solaris install on these CLEA things. The SUN FTP server in solaris 8 for example has a flaw that can get you root in about 2 minutes, I know because one of my boxes got rooted this way just a few weeks ago when my firewall went down and I had accidentaly left FTP up in inetd (yes, yes, bad oversight).

    In any case, have these law enforcement people heard of SSH or SCP or whatever? There is a repository of recordings and data and some Fed IT guy is FTPing it across the internet back to HQ for analysis?? Does that freak anyone else out?

    Considering people scan the net for vulnerable FTP servers, I wouldn't be surprised if many of those boxes are rooted right now. Probably running an IRC bot or running attacks on other hosts.

    I refuse to believe it's unsecured but my gut tells me it's probably true, knowing most IT people and knowing most developers. You'd think they would put a firewall in front of these boxes and treat them as highly secure boxes and then maybe VPN in and retrieve the information via a secured protocol.

    Oh well. What a nightmare.
    • Phone companies have be using SUN Sparc Stations and the like for years. What I guess happened is this:

      1. Sparcs in place just running phones
      2. Feds to Telcos: Give us Super Tap Power, over the internet.
      3. Telcos: Uh. Ok. We'll go ahead and do that. What about security?
      4. Feds: Shut up. Take this money and DO IT.
    • by noah_fense ( 593142 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [namehthaon]> on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:32PM (#6417727)

      Carriers will often time keep their billing systems highly firewalled, so it shouldn't be too much trouble to protect CALEA. There is no excuse for exposing this system. If kevin mitnick was still around, CALEA would be just as recognized as "carnivore"

      I've worked on a carrier VoIP solution for CALEA before, and the version i ran actually ran apache for the administrative side. Most telcos run solaris on Sun Netras for most of their applications, so their employees should know how to secure a Solaris box.

      Interesting note: Level3 communications used to run a custom version of solaris (encrypted and secured up the ass), but it just made it a pain in the ass to run any additional applications on the server.

      -n
    • by Schezar ( 249629 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:42PM (#6417818) Homepage Journal
      ...have these law enforcement people heard of SSH or SCP or whatever?

      You'd be surprised how little most people in important positions know about the IT infrastructure they use. Still in college and working for [company], I got blank stares when I mentioned SSH or its ilk. Security was firewalls and switches (the latter to prevent sniffing, since everything is damn well cleartext).

      The experts said "we can detect sniffers, they're not an issue," yet I KNOW how to sniff without ANY chance being detected. They had fancy locks on raised-floor server rooms, yet the walls and doors didn't extend into the crawlspace.

      The networks in most geeks' college apartments are a thousand times more secure than real, critical networks. Most "Security Experts" out there do security "by the book," which doesn't exactly work when everyone knows what the book says. They fall behind the waves of new technology, and seemingly obvious security precautions elude them.

      [end rant]

      I feel better now ^_^
      • by beavis88 ( 25983 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @03:13PM (#6418147)
        The networks in most geeks' college apartments are a thousand times more secure than real, critical networks

        Most geeks' college apartment networks are a thousand times less complex than a real, critical network. I do agree that you have a valid point, but I don't think it's a fair comparison.
    • Considering people scan the net for vulnerable FTP servers, I wouldn't be surprised if many of those boxes are rooted right now. Probably running an IRC bot or running attacks on other hosts.

      They're probably secured by now - by the script kiddies who got into them in the first place so no one else will 0wn3z "their" b0x. Just hope it's the 13 year old who is using it to swap warez.
  • ...that the paranoid people may be right.

    phone message 1 [byzantinec...ations.com]
    phone message 2 [byzantinec...ations.com]
    phone message 3 [byzantinec...ations.com]
    phone message 4 [byzantinec...ations.com]

    And while they may not be implanting tracking device pellets in our necks now...just you wait.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Does everybody now understand why "Key Escrow" was such a stupid idea?

    Ignore the 1st Amendment, 4th Amendment, and 5th Amendment issues raised by mandatory key escrow. Instead, just consider the national security implications of a key escrow system that is as badly secured and badly managed and easily abused as CALEA.

    Scary isn't it?
  • Friends and Family (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MonolithicX ( 656642 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:32PM (#6417728)
    This may be a good article to show your family, friends and congressmen


    Its a good thought but my friends would reach "Siemens ESWD or a Lucent 5E or a Nortel DMS 500 runs on a Sun workstation" and that would essentially end the article for them. We need some articles with less Tech and essentialy the same meat.
  • by Shackleford ( 623553 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:43PM (#6417831) Journal
    From the article: "CALEA represents mid-90s thinking about electronic intelligence, but now we have the Patriot Act that goes so much further. And we have a program at the Defense Advanced Projects Research Agency called Total Information Awareness."

    The article was quite informative, but there are a few problems with it, related to the above quote.

    "Total Information Awareness" has had its name changed to "Terrorist Information Awareness." Cringely gets this fact wrong and so one has to wonder if there are other inaccuracies in it.

    The other problem I have with it is that it mentions the Patriot Act, but doesn't go into much detail about it. It went on for quite a while about CALEA, and understanbly so. But I think that more about the Patriot Act and its implications should have been included.

  • by felonious ( 636719 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:43PM (#6417835) Journal
    Lets see here...
    It's an invasion of privacy
    It's unsecure with a direct connection to the net
    It's being hacked
    Private information is being stolen
    It's being used as a tool by other countries
    Our Goverment knows this yet it isn't fixed.
    This is a dumbed down version of big brother. If you're going to do this or any type of wire tapping then why not make it secure at the very least.

    Why do we let our goverment get away with this shit? I don't support funding any goverment to spy on me and/or listen to my private conversations since I am not a terrorist but if they're doing it anyway keep my shit secure and private.

    I wonder if Orin Hatch knew about this and the intrusion into our citizen's privacy would he support small nuclear strikes on said servers and their admins? I would.

    It's amazing our goverment can function at all.
    • Why do we let our goverment get away with this shit?

      Simple: they have more and bigger guns than we do.

      Oh, and all that brainwashing about our leaders having some magical ability to know how to do the Right Thing.

  • by PsiPsiStar ( 95676 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:48PM (#6417882)
    I remember when I was a kid, I was told about how the Soviets were always being watched by their own government and that one of every three soviets or so were spies for the KGB.

    I guess we're not much different than the Soviets. Just more efficient.
    • Thank you... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by msimm ( 580077 )
      I always thought it was funny how we furiously value our freedom with one hand and then mindlessly give it away with the other.
      • Re:Thank you... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by davie ( 191 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @05:00PM (#6419321) Journal

        The reason for this is simple: there is no serious political discussion in this country and hasn't been since (at least) the early 1900s. What passes for debate amounts to recitation of talking points lists. Without thoughtful debate, consensus can never be reached, and the majority are reduced to two self-cancelling groups of mind-numbed zealots whose goals ultimately serve only to further the interests of a small group of apolitical, amoral "elites".

        There are plenty of "conservatives" who are mad as hell about TIA (or TTA or whatever the Name of the Day is) and are expressing their concerns as vociferously as some of the "liberals" who oppose it, yet the two groups seem to find the thought of opposing this monstrosity with a single voice so distasteful that they'll stand by and let it go with little more than a squeak. Why? Because their respective political religions tell them that unbelievers are unclean and must be avoided at all costs.

        As long as we Americans are satisfied with the "conservatives vs. liberals" dogma and refuse to think for ourselves, nothing will change for the better.

  • by Maul ( 83993 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @02:55PM (#6417972) Journal
    Almost everyone on /. has heard this all before.

    This info needs to get out to people who don't know this at all. It is surprising the amount of people who trust Bush/Ashcroft implicitly to do what is right, and that by doing so they will be better protected from terrorists.

    Send this article along to people you know. Let them know why you think the Government is not to be trusted.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Government organizations are completely inefectual about managing the data they currently have access to. What is gathering more data going to gain them?
  • by SysKoll ( 48967 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @03:30PM (#6418310)
    From the article: Israeli companies, spies, and gangsters have hacked CALEA for fun and profit, as have the Russians and probably others, too. They have used our own system of electronic wiretaps to wiretap US, because you see that's the problem: CALEA works for anyone who knows how to run it.

    And not just CALEA, either. There are other pieces of telecom software and equipment that have been hacked in the past. Some of this eavesdropping by foreign spooks [landfield.com] acquired a lot of notoriety [snapshield.com] due to its interception of highly sensitive traffic.

    But it's safe to assume that there was much more eavesdropping that wasn't reported or even discovered.

    If this goes on, it will be faster to call the Mossad or the FSB to fix a phone problem in DC than to call the local phone company.

    -- SysKoll
  • TRON meets 1984 (Score:4, Insightful)

    by canadiangoose ( 606308 ) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (mahargjd)> on Friday July 11, 2003 @03:49PM (#6418487)
    While the paranoid (sane, perhapse?) side of me believes that a system such as TIA should never be built, the Pure Technical side of me finds this sort of thing very exciting. The DARPA document in the article mentions the need for some sort of large, distributed, flexible, inteligent database backend to manage everything. As soon as I read the requirements, I thought about the Cyc information server from CyCorp [cyc.com]. Even the name is creepy. Cyc is, in my opinion, the best approach taken towards AI thus far, and as such it would be perfect for managing this sort of project. It creates logical associations between data objects automatically, finds discrepencies and asks for clarification automatically! It also supports plain english queries, and allready has a good knowlendge of the human world. You could populate it with the information from the TIA project, teach it what a Terrorist is, and it could spit out all sorts of names.

    Scary stuff, very scary stuff... but oh, so cool at the same time. Damnit!!

  • spells SKYNET!!!
  • by kmac06 ( 608921 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @04:35PM (#6418983)
    Everyone is getting in a big huff over this, but it isn't the wiretapping that's new. The phone company has ALWAYS been able to listen in on your conversation. The FBI has ALWAYS been able to listen in on your conversation, with a court order. This has not changed. The only difference is, the material that is recorded (which is done so only on a court order) is not secure. Incompetency? Yes. Congress trampling all over your civil liberties? Not really. A hacker can't listen to you unless the FBI already did, in which case you're probably screwed anyway :)

    I'm not saying this shouldn't be fixed, I'm saying it's not a big deal.
    • The big deal is that in the old days, the police or FBI had to present a court order to the telephone company to get a wiretap. A telephone company technician installed the wiretap, not an FBI agent. With the new systems, they have removed the telephone company's participation, making it a self-serve system. What is the software going to do, put up a dialog box saying "Do you have a lawful court order? [Y/N]"? This is bad news in a society where many police officers believe that the end justifies the means.
    • The FBI has ALWAYS been able to listen in on your conversation, with a court order. This has not changed.

      They no longer need a court order. The previous system turned out to be unpatriotic.
  • Cringely gets front-page billing so frequently on Slashdot that I think it's time he got his own icon.
  • I don't know how many times I heard that expression as a kid during the 60's. Whenever someone criticized anything about American government or society, someone else invariably asked if they would rather live in Russia, which we all knew was an oppressive police state. I even read about apartment buildings over there being constructed with microphones built right in, so the evil commie government could listen for subversive activities. No, I didn't want to live in Russia.

    Every telephone switch installed i
    • I even read about apartment buildings over there being constructed with microphones built right in, so the evil commie government could listen for subversive activities.

      I don't think they built microphones in every wall - they didn't need to, usually neighbours did the trick. The Russians did build microphones in the walls of the US embassy - maybe that's where this legend comes from.

      By the way, the older people say that in Soviet Russia, if the KGB were listening in on your phone you could always tell i

  • Just make them rename it to SkyNet.
  • "Robert X. Cringely, the PBS one"

    Who gets to be a Robert X. Cringely? Just Mark Stephens (PBS) and anyone Infoworld gives that column to [infoworld.com]?

    <veruca salt voice>But I want to be a Robert X. Cringely too!</veruca salt voice>

The Tao is like a glob pattern: used but never used up. It is like the extern void: filled with infinite possibilities.

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