Netflix Granted Patent on DVD Subscription Rentals

A few folks noted a new patent showing up from netflix. They apparently now have a patent on their model of subscribing to rentals- where instead of being charged per disc, you are charged a monthly fee and can keep the rentals indefinitely without late fees. You can patent anything! Get on the bus!

What other DVD rental services should I consider?

[abischof]

So, I guess that means Netflix is crossed off my list. Does anyone have another DVD rental service to recommend? (assuming that this other company can survive despite the patent.)

I recently heard about GreenCine [greencine.com] and they seem interesting. It's $21.95/month, but they have "over 10,000 titles, with an accent on indie, art house, classics, foreign, documentary, anime and Asian cinema."

I sought a second opinion and found this extensive review of DVD rental services [starkravingnormal.com] at Stark Raving Normal [starkravingnormal.com]. The guy seemed to like them: "GreenCine is my current favorite DVD rental service. The customer service people have been great, they have the best selection of anime that I have seen from a DVD rental place, lots of cult movies, sci-fi, horror, indie films, foreign cinema, and even a cool little online community of San Francisco movie geeks."

I don't work for GreenCine, but they're probably towards the top of my list at the moment. And, it doesn't hurt either that some of their profits go to film arts organizations.

Patent text and more info

[bjschrock]

Here's some more info: Netflix Issued Patent on Subscription Rental Service [prnewswire.com] and complete copy of the patent (PDF) [patentlogistics.com]. You can also search for patent # 6584450 on the US Patent office website [uspto.gov].

Re:i wished we had closed the patent office in 189

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

Umm, actually he never said that [209.130.50.107]

fetchaflick

[Triv]

In New York City a company called "Fetch-a-flick" allows you to order DVDs online. They deliver within an hour, you keep the movie for 3-5 days, put it in the supplied envelope and drop it in a mailbox (or leave it with your doorman). All for 4 bucks each. I'd love to do business with netflix but the last thing I need is another monthly charge, and fetchaflick quenches the impulse renting urge. If you live in Manhattan check 'em out - I highly recommend them. (Caveat: their delivery area isn't huge) Fetchaflick [fetchaflick.com].

No, I don't work for them, I'm just really happy with their services.

Re:What other DVD rental services should I conside

[NetGuruFL]

IMO, there really are no alternatives to the service Netflix can provide. Specfically their ratings and recommendations model. While there are cheaper services, like Wal-Mart and DVD Avenue, Netflix's recommendation system makes them work the extra few dollars a month.

They claim over 13,000 titles (though I suspect disc sets are broken up to get this figure), and I have only personally rated about 1,100. Thats a heck of a lot of titles I haven't been exposed to, and Netflix makes it easier to find stuff that would interest me.

Unless Amazon.com gets into the DVD Rental business, Netflix simply has no competition, in my book.

Re:Call me ignorant..

[Remik]

The rationale behind patents is that creators need a reason to create, and if anyone can steal their idea once they've created it, they probably won't bother.

This logic is flawed as applied to business process patents, as this one is. Business processes will always be created because the business has an inherent motivation, increased profit, and does not need the increased motive of monopoly protect to jump-start their creation.

This issue was highlighted in Larry Lessig's 'The Future of Ideas' on a section regarding Amazon's One-click patent, and Steve Job's comments that they would have developed the technology in any event, even if it wouldn't have been patentable.

The idea that businesses need any other motivation than the desire to keep themselves afloat is hogwash, but it's what the entire recent history of the US Patent process is based on.

-R

Re:PATENT SOURCE

[deadsaijinx*]

they didn't come up with anything new. all they did was apply an Old bussiness model [google.com] to DVDs.

Re:PATENT SOURCE

[brunes69]

If you're an American, read your Constitution--the justification is written into it. If you're not, well, quick start a Netflix-style business before the EU patent is granted.

You can't patent business methods in the EU AFAIK.

Library?

[ThunderInEye]

I vaguely recall something like this in the past. It was called a...libation? No, library. That's it, a LIBRARY. Allthough I think it was cheaper per month, but they did charge late fees. I guess this is why they disappeared:)

Re:Walmart?

[mrjohnson]

Quite simply: patents should not granted for business plans, irregardless of what 'fair' is to you or anybody else....

Re:Other patents...

[dknj]

So that's why there's Wanted List [wantedlist.com]

-dk

Re:Sears

[panurge]

No, the price tag was actually invented by members of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers.) Quaker businessmen disapproved of negotiated pricing, which they saw as in some ways akin to gambling. The price ticket was invented to make a statement about honest business practices. And they would not have patented it, not only because it would be contrary to their beliefs but because, in Europe and the UK, you cannot patent a business method.

It's called a library

[roboneal]

The mailing of movies aside, Netflix business model is different from my public library how?

Re:Other patents...

[patchmaster]

Netflix is incorporated in Delaware and the main corporate offices are in Los Gatos, California. They may well have distribution centers in Utah, as they do in many other states, but they are not "based" in Utah.

I suspect any censorship of titles done by Netflix is more a result of states such as Alabama prosecuting some companies for sending to the state materials that do not meet with their community standards. There was an adult-oriented satellite service that was shut down because Alabama sued them for broadcasting what the state deemed obscene material into the state -- regardless of the fact that the transmission was encrypted so only those that paid for the service could view it.

Some Informative Literature Regarding Patents

[101percent]

I believe that it's important to hear all sides to any issue, so here are two Ogg Vorbis [vorbis.org] encoded recordings of Richard M. Stallman [stallman.org] speaking about software patents and a percieved danger that they pose to software development. I know that this story isn't specifically about software patents, but you may find his ideas informative and extensible. (Disclaimer: Verbatim copying and distribution of the entire speech recording are permitted provided this notice is preserved.)

http://audio-video.gnu.org/audio/rms-speech-cambri dgeuni-england2002.ogg [gnu.org] Transcript [cam.ac.uk]
http://audio-video.gnu.org/audio/rms-speech-patent s-lse2002.ogg [gnu.org]

Here [gnu.org] is a transcript of a non-recorded speech given by RMS in India also on the issue of software patents.

I hope some of you find these links useful. If anyone knows of any good links taking differing position on the issue of patent law, etc... than I would definitly encourage you to post those.

What they patented

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the discussion and argument about this patent has been focused on the idea that subscription services are not new. If you'll read the patent text, or even just the abstract, you'll see that the essence of the patent deals with how you select movies to rent and the fact that this process is separate from the rental process itself. If you've used Netflix, you know what they are talking about. You select movies and add them to your rental list. When you turn in a movie, they automatically send you the next movie from your list. This differs from most other rental schemes in which you select the next item to rent at the time you are renting it, and really is one of the best features of using Netflix. Maybe some other subscription-based rental services do this, but from what I've read in this thread, I haven't seen anyone point out any that do (in particular, any such services that predate Netflix).

Re:Other patents... (Corrected spelling)

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not big on censorship and I'm certainly not a Mormon, but disrespecting the beliefs of other groups by making bad puns is a lazy copout that will do nothing but make them angry and unwilling to listen to what you have to say. The only thing it proves is that you are immature and likely ignorant of why you hold the opinions you have.

Comparing Walmart and Netflix a users perspective

[greyfeld]

The real issue regarding Netflix patent is how similar the the competition's DVD rental system is to Netflix. I have recently changed from a 3-disc Netflix ($20/mo) subscription to a 4-disc Walmart subscription ($21.94/mo). Why did I switch?

Firstly, I am located in Little Rock and the nearest Netflix distribution center was in Houston. Walmart has a distribution center about 4 hours away in Bentonville. Walmart is also the master of distribution and has facilities all over the world. I was finding that even though I would receive a DVD from Netflix and return it the next day, I was only receiving about 3-4 movies a week at most due to shipping delays. I am hoping to improve on that by subscribing to Walmart's service.

Secondly, there is a minimal price difference. For approximately $2.00 a month I could keep out a 4th DVD on loan over the price of a 3 disc Netflix account. Assuming that I will be able to receive them quicker, I should get 5-6 a week from Walmart. So instead of getting 12-15 a month from Netflix, I should get 20-25 a month from Walmart for only $2.00 a month more. Of course, my turn-around time on these must be swift to achieve this goal. In comparing the delivery, Walmart uses the exact same envelopes to mail as Netflix. Where Netflix uses a coated paper sleeve, Walmart is using a clear plastic sleeve. The queue on your account screen is nearly identical and in fact uses the same terms for how long a wait you'll have to get that hot new DVD (now, short wait, long wait). Movie selection is not as good on Walmart's site. For instance I was looking for the movies Alien, Aliens and Aliens3. These are nowhere to be found on Walmart's site. All you get is some cheapo alien movies from their bargain bin.

In reality, the sites, delivery methods, and rental agreements are nearly identical. I believe that Walmart has a problem. And for them to be quoted as saying they were unaware of any patent pending from Netflix, well it is either stupidity on their part not to have checked it out or a case of who cares we will bury them in red tape if they sue.

Really this is not a case of someone coming out of the woodwork like the Ebay case, but rather a first to market, successful firm patenting their business model. Nothing wrong with that and Walmart is probably scrambling in Bentonville trying to figure out what they are going to do.

Re:Other patents...

[Trespass]

Odd. Take a look at some sculptures from the Moche civilization, or perhaps some Tantric friezes. Fear not though, the majority of penises in american art museums are still on Baby Jesus.

Re:They should now sue Blockbuster!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, reviews I've read online are telling me Netflix is losing an assload of DVD's in the mail, since they are so clearly marked for filthy fucking mailsorters to pocket. Bad part is, Netflix is passing some of the cost onto it's customers, chaarging them for lost DVD's once a few have dissapeared in a customer's history.

Re:Prior Art:1700-1900s "subscription libraries"

[jroysdon]

Perhaps you should read the patent, or at least the abstract. The key difference is that you maintain a list online, and that list is automatically mailed to you up to your max amount of DVDs (which you can pay to have increased if you want to have more out at a time). I don't know of anyone who had such a system. Using the library analogy, I'm sure one had to specify the book they wanted next at the time they returned the other book.

And it's more than just a "reservation list" that a library might have (and then suddenly you have 20 books ready to be picked up), but an intelligent queue where you tell it the order in which you'd like to see movies as they're available. It doesn't seem like much, but being able to spend 15 minutes and build a 50 movie queue list and then not have to hassle with it until I ran into another movie I wanted to add is wonderful.

As an aside: To me, this is a hugely valuable thing. I cancelled my sub after 2 months of renting everything I'd wanted to see, but I wish I could pay a nominal fee ($1-2/month?) to continue to use the online service to add new (or future) releases to the queue, and then re-activate my sub every 6 months and watch a dozen or so movies (of course, that doesn't fit their business model, so they won't do it).

Should a few "obvious" things tied together be patentable? Perhaps so... What is the real purpose for a patent? To protect a new invential/idea/business model from being copied by someone else - especially someone else with a large existing customer base and capital. For once, the patent system is actually going to protect the "little guy" from the corporate giants.

Re:Other patents...

[gid]

Is that what that "This movie has been altered for your tv" msg or w/e it is means?

Usually that means that the widescreen version has been redited to fit on a normal tv screen without the black bars at the top and bottom.

Yet another editing technique I hate. Sometime you lose valuable information because they chop the sides off. Say, for example, there's a scene where one person is on the far left of the screen and another is on the far right of the screen. If they make it fullscreen, then someone has to be cut out of the shot!

Re:Other patents...german bread

[Anonymous Coward]

grammar