TiVo To Sell Customer Data 469
camusflage writes "Yahoo has a story that details TiVo's plans to sell customer data to advertisers and broadcasters. While individuals will be anonymous, data will be made available in aggregate form, including ZIP code. The San Jose Mercury News has additional coverage on the news."
Good for them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:5, Insightful)
Key word: aggregate (Score:5, Insightful)
Not a problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Aggregate data is fine, for the most part (obviously, if your consumer base is 5 people, there might be an issue), but for this, I don't see the problem. And I'm a serious privacy advocate...
Nothing to see... Move along. (Score:5, Insightful)
Weren't they already doing this? (Score:3, Insightful)
Either way, it's yet another reason to buy a TiVo instead of building your own (yes, I wrote that correctly). If you're using a TiVo companies will be paying attention to what you watch and potentially using the info to determine what to put on in the future. Build your own and they won't.
Last I checked... (Score:3, Insightful)
Kjella
Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)
You didn't even read the summary, let alone the article. As long as they do not use any of your personal information, they are not invading your privacy. This is no more invasive than reading web server logfiles.
No real news here (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I wish I could say I was surprised.... (Score:5, Insightful)
TiVo knows that I make more than $155.88/year, but I haven't given them an indication of how much more.
And yes, there's an opt out feature in the TiVo, so you can have your viewing statistics removed from your zip code. Big win for privacy.
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Last time I checked - they were a 'for profit' business... monthly fees + selling of data = more profit ~= happier shareholders.
And again (Score:5, Insightful)
Again I say, Tivo selling the viewing info is a GOOD THING. I am tired of shows I like getting cancelled for lack of Neilson ratings. I've never been nor have I even known a Neilson family. I don't like the fact that someone else is deciding what's good TV and what should be cancelled.
This will broaden the base of input for TV ratings. Another plus, Tivo owners tend to be geekish. This will most likely help the rating and staying power of shows that geeks watch (sci-fi to be specific). Maybe we finally have a fighting chance against inane 30 minute sitcoms and 'reality' TV.
Focused Advertising (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good for them... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I wish I could say I was surprised.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure lots of us would like to see that data, but if they made it available to us for free, that would kinda negate the possibility of them SELLING the data for $$$, you know? Contact Tivo and I'm sure they'll get together a quote for you and you could purchase the data too.
Is there an opt-out feature?
Yes, you can call Tivo and opt-out, should you choose. It's quick and hassle free, I know lots of other Tivo owners who have done that.
Personally, I haven't opted out. I've seen the data that is sent to Tivo, it can't be tracked to me individually, and I'd like Tivo to be able to make a buck so they don't go out of business.
Really folks, this isn't a paranoid, tinfoil hat issue. It's just business, and Tivo's model seems far more ethical than most. I'm more than happy to help them out. It doesn't cost me anything.
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:1, Insightful)
...may I have another? (Score:3, Insightful)
more for the subscription that doesn't really pay
for content, just indexing and the privilege of them
not disabling the box that you paid for. All of this in
order to watch commercial-filled television that you
are also paying your sat or cable company even more
money for, all tied up in a DRM wrapper.
Now, they are collecting your stats, your private life
(as collected on the box you paid for, perhaps continually),
and selling it. And people here think it's great because
(at least today) it's not directly tied to your name.
Boy, that TV must be really great stuff.
Re:Key word: aggregate (Score:4, Insightful)
They've been very open with us on this issue. They've given no reason not to trust them.
Who doesn't sell data ? (Score:4, Insightful)
OSDN may use accumulated aggregate data for several purposes including, but not limited to, marketing analysis, evaluation of OSDN's services, and business planning.
There is no prohibition against selling it to other parties. So why the cry of wolf ? I'm pretty sure that if someone found aggregate Slashdot information useful, OSDN would be - or is - selling it. And I don't care. Is it a violation of my privacy if some marketing firm studies aggregate customer behavior in a store and discovers that the majority of customers turn right when they enter ? I don't think it is, and that sort of aggregate research is happening all the time.
Re:Good for them... (Score:4, Insightful)
Ain't no thing.... (Score:5, Insightful)
2. TiVo could become more relevant that Neilsen data. Imagine, they can break down for networks what was recorded vs. what was actually watched, when it was watched, and what commercials were watched while viewing. Combine this with the fact (here's where TiVo shareholder's laugh with glee) that I will PAY THEM to LET THEM track this data, and be happy to do so, it's a win win for the company and the consumer.
TiVo truly does put one in control of their viewing. If they want to gather a little data, virtually anonymously, fine by me.
"Zip codes aren't a privacy problem" (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Insightful)
Give me choice - and we all win (Score:3, Insightful)
in fact, all that can happen from this is a) increase revenue/profits for a kick-ass outfit like TiVo (we're still sorta in a capitalist society here, aren't we?) b) reduce my bill.
Both are a win.
Hell, if they wanted to identify it down to me (Nielsen?) and charge me nothing for the service.. i'd be up for that.
but that's me. If you'd not be down with that, then they should not have any right to do that.
and since they are not, this is a GOOD news story, not a BAD news story.
Re:Key word: aggregate (Score:5, Insightful)
I would argue that it is. With 700,000 households, it is 350 times larger than the highly influential Nielsen Media Research sample size. (See http://www.nielsenmedia.com/FAQ/ [nielsenmedia.com])
Re:...may I have another? (Score:5, Insightful)
1) If you fail to subscribe to the TiVo service, they don't in any way shape or form disable your box. Of course, you don't have access to the subscription information, or software updates, which are what the service pays for, and which are in my personal opinion well worth the cost of the service.
2) You've apparently never used a TiVo. Most TiVo users rarely ever watch commercials. They fast forward through them because they're watching things that have been previously recorded.
3) The TiVo doesn't have any DRM. It's on-disk data format is undocumented, but if you look online you can find software that has figured out how to extract it. There is, however, no encryption, and nothing that keeps you from duping something on your TiVo off onto a VCR tape (in fact the TiVo has some features that make that process easier).
4) From the beginning, TiVo has always reserved the right to sell aggregate data, and has always promised to protect individual data. Nothing has changed. It is also unlikely that anything will change, because individual data is next to worthless. No one cares whether or not you watch American Idol. They only care what percentage of 18-30 year olds watch American Idol. The bad PR that TiVo would receive would never be worth the value of selling individual data.
Frankly, I'm shocked (Score:2, Insightful)
If you replaced the word "Tivo" with "Microsoft," I swear there would be a posse forming in some thread on this comments page as we speak to go down to their corporate HQ and burn every copy of XP they received with their PCs.
I can just picture a story "Microsoft to track aggregate data on what mp3s people are listening to through a hook in Media Player in its latest software update."
Do you picture replies saying "Well, if it maybe helps lower the price of the next OS release $15, I'm all for it." In all seriousness, can you picture replies like that on Slashdot?
Why is Tivo given the benefit of the doubt? Is it just because it's such a geek-chic tool? Is it just a couple talking heads trying to fill a meme of "No no, it's aggregate, it's cool?"
Tivo is making money as it is. If they do this, your subscription rates WILL NOT go down. You WILL NOT see better programming on tv as a result. You WILL NOT be able to resurrect your favourite show from Tivo data vs Nielsen data because Nielsen data is multi-tiered (It's not just a box they track, people fill in journals and other things).
On top of that, the data they're getting is not "global" data, it represents the data taken from households where either a) expendable income is high, or b) expendable income is not high, but someone living there is a techie.
What do you hope to gain from this? More directed ads? Didn't most of you people get a Tivo to skip the ads in the first place?
Re:1997 MIT study said aggregate data defeats priv (Score:2, Insightful)
First of all, I have never seen a 9 digit zip code. Secondly, and more importantly, the crucial data there is your birth date. If that data is not included in the TiVo information, this post means very little. If the BDate is in there, that's a problem.
I've got a bridge to sell you (Score:1, Insightful)
. . . for now . . .
Re:Key word: aggregate (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:5, Insightful)
This one statement almost completely sums up most of what is wrong with the mentality of Slashdot. You have one experience where ZIP+4 resolves to your house and your house only, so you generalize it to mean that it does for everyone. When people point out that it does not for everyone, you retract your statement, only to replace it by another one in which you no data. If you see some of the other posts here, linking to the USPS web site, you will see that for most people, it does not link to a particular house.
Re:Frankly, I'm shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
Tivo, on the other hand, has been very open and honest about their business and their hardware. They've never lied or attempted to be dishonest in any way. They've always been respectful of their cusotmers and made a good-faith effort to communicate with them. Also, they've respected the hacker community and the hacker community has respected them in turn. This has brought about a lot of great enhancements for the series one unit and the company has been good about listenting to their customers and what they want.
Tivo has stated since day one that they collect informtation, detailed what information they collect, and have provided a way to opt out. They've also stated that they would probably sell the information at some later point. People have verified that Tivo is telling the truth in regards to what information they collect and send back to their servers.
Tivo has earned most customers respect whereas Microsoft seems almost proud that they have not.
Re:Frankly, I'm shocked (Score:3, Insightful)
How about a different question -- what do I fear to lose from this? Wow, they'll learn that 40% of the people in zip code 00000 that can afford a Tivo watch Survivor, or have season passes to Buffy. And I'm worried, why?
Selling info? Good idea! (Score:4, Insightful)
"Aggregate" data by 5-digit zip code is not enough to personally identify you. It's like watching log-ins by IP address. You get liumped with everybody else who was watching Smallville or Buffy reruns.
Marketing is ESSENTIAL to support broadcast TV as we know it. Someone has to pay for all those production costs, and right now it is the advertisers. I like it that way. TIVO and other time-shifting technologies scare advertisers and TV producers because they see costs rising and revenues dwindling.
Companies waste a lot of money on advertising because they don't know what commercials "work" (or are at least watched). If they could get fast feedback, maybe the really stupid and pointless commercials would go away faster. If they could get better at spotting what ads are getting viewed/skipped on what shows, maybe the shows wouldn't go away for lack of advertisers.
Here's your chance guys . . . (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good for them... (Score:1, Insightful)
Do you honestly believe Tivo is the first company or member of an industry that has to battle this? The ENTIRE health care community has dealt with this for decades, from trial studies to ER records to HMO contracts to federal VA databases.
And what have they shown? That they CAN do it. I remember a professor stat boy for the NIH telling the class how they cross-correlated 2 studies and pulled specific individuals out to do further studies. Then, as a test and for a paper (they had permission from some governing body, if I recall a followup question from a classmate), pulled those individuals out by records. They were right.
At least the health care industry somewhat has ethics and regulations regarding such information (e.g. far less so with HMO bodies). It's a joke if you think Tivo has a clue. They obviously don't, because they cannot control downstream data collaboration of those they sell the information to. And if they did, they wouldn't sell crap, because it'd be useless to the buyers.
Re:Demographics are not an invasion of privacy. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Frankly, I'm shocked (Score:1, Insightful)
Anyone who can be identified from the "aggregate data" because they fit into extremely small classifications.
For example, "Data Processing Professionals who own controlling interest in poultry farms in the 75642 zip code" would find me, and only me, and will almost certainly stay that way. So it's a poor example, but hopefully you get the idea.
This kind of thing has really chaffed me at work though. The company would put out "anonymous" surveys, but you still were identified by your length of time at the company and/or your geographic location. For most people, that would place them in a large group, and they could enjoy nominal anonymity. But for others, that was every bit the identification as your name.
So there's no problem with aggregate data when you only look at the samples with large populations, but I'll bet any selection criteria you apply, somewhere identifies an individual.
A few years ago, just "Zip Code" alone would have meant me, or the residents of my family farm.
Are you people insane (Score:1, Insightful)