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DeCSS Arguments in CA Supreme Court Case 531

scubacuda writes "According to News.com, California Attorney General Bill Lockyer called DVD-cracking software DeCSS a tool for "breaking, entering and stealing" during a hearing before the California Supreme Court on Thursday. "The program DeCSS is a burglary tool," Lockyer told the judges, adding that the movie studios lose millions of dollars because of piracy over the Internet. (CopyLeft offers this "burglary tool" on a t-shirt)" If you've forgotten what this case is about, see EFF's page about it.
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DeCSS Arguments in CA Supreme Court Case

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  • Name calling? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by absurdhero ( 614828 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @10:54AM (#6076766) Homepage
    It looks like the industry is so desperate, they have to resort to name calling and hollow accusations. What a sad state of affairs.
  • No surprise (Score:5, Interesting)

    by DrTentacle ( 469268 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @10:56AM (#6076788)
    Bunner said he originally posted the code so that people could use it to play their DVDs on the Linux operating system, a practice that was all but impossible at the time.


    Unfortunately, with no large corporate backing at the time, legitimate uses such as this would of course be ignored. When large corporates think they are losing money, the government will come down on their side time after time.

    Let's hope that uses such as this can be viewed as more legitimate now that the OSS movement has some large backers - IBM and the like.
  • Re:Right... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rgoer ( 521471 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:02AM (#6076858)
    So that's where I dropped my dildo seeds... In any case, is there really such a thing as a "burglary tool?" Is there any kind of precedent for an object being considered, by the courts, to be a "burglary tool?" Is the sale of things like a slim jim for a car restricted? Do you have to show either your locksmiths' license or your burgalry permit to purchase one? Are they even categorized differently than normal "hardware?" Where does the MPAA come up with this crap?
  • by Anti Frozt ( 655515 ) <chris...buffett@@@gmail...com> on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:07AM (#6076934)

    Mr. Lockyer seems to be confusing the act of Burglary with that of Circumvention. DeCSS is not a tool for stealing or copying DVDs, but a tool for decoding a DVD for use in a DVD player, i.e. one created for Linux.

    This would be like accusing someone who breaks into a car, but doesn't take anything, of grand theft auto. I think Mr. Lockyer needs to spend a few more years in Law School or at least read over the criminal legislation.

  • by janda ( 572221 ) <janda@kali-tai.net> on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:08AM (#6076936) Homepage

    The advertisement I got when I come into the comments page was for the Intel C++ compilter.

    If DeCSS is a burglery tool, Intel, Microsoft, and other assembler/compiler makers should be charged with "aiding and abetting".

  • by horace ( 29145 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:09AM (#6076950)
    Am I right in thinking that there is no need ot use a tool like DeCSS to copy a DVD? I believe you can just make a bit for bit copy of the DVD which is less likely to alarm the punters.

    There are contantly stories mentioning DeCSS and file sharing in the same breath as piracy. While both may be in conflict with the law they are quite different and everything should be done to explain the differences between the two. ie

    File sharing/DeCSS = personal, between friends, not for profit.

    Piracy = for profit, doesn't use MP3s, doesn't need DeCSS, run by gangsters

    The case against the latter is much stronger and more legitimate. Confusion between the two is very damaging and widespread.

    DeCSS just overcomes a measure designed to reduce free trade in DVDs to allow the maintenance of differential pricing and irritate peole who travel a lot.
  • by anonymous loser ( 58627 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:18AM (#6077070)
    An interesting point from the news.com article:
    During Thursday's hearing, DVD CCA attorney Robert Sugarman told the seven-judge panel that the software is designed "to allow individuals to steal a trade secret and, by virtue of that, hack into a system that protects the trade secrets of motion picture makers."

    How did this go from stealing copyrights to stealing trade secrets all of a sudden? Exactly what part of the DVD is a trade secret? It can't possibly be the encryption, because nobody's interested in that part, they want the content. The content itself is certainly no trade secret, since it is widely distributed and available to anyone with a Blockbuster card.

  • Re:Foolish analogies (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:25AM (#6077158)
    Okay kids, now I'm not a fan of the way IP is handled in the US either. But seriously...DeCSS is not a pencil. It is a tool designed to remove copyright protection from someone's IP.


    Yo... but CSS restricts fair use. Perhaps DeCSS is the slimjim that breaks into your car when you lock yourself out. MM.. make that a rental car even. You don't own the car, but you have the right to enter it (even if you don't have the keys at the moment), so it's hardly breaking and entering. Nor is it stealing when someone uses DeCSS to watch their DVD on a linux box.

    The govt shouldn't be trying to outlaw DeCSS. Everyone I know that uses DeCSS owns DVD's. They give the MPAA money. I, OTOH, prefer to watch movies that I download. I give the MPAA no money. Way to go after the bad guys MPAA. Way to stop piracy.
  • by Effugas ( 2378 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:28AM (#6077194) Homepage
    It's not as backed up by law as you think it might be, or there wouldn't continue to be fights about Right of First Sale that the industry kept losing (i.e. sales of used CDs and DVDs.)

    The industry can think what they want; the moment they put their product in a retail outlet, apply sales tax appropriate for a consumer good, and advertise using slogans like "Buy it today!" (Blockbuster), they sold it.

    Imagine if every purchase you made came with a list of conditions. Imagine how often you'd ignore that list.

    --Dan
  • copyright (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Stormcrow309 ( 590240 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:31AM (#6077234) Journal
    Since DeCSS is an implementation of a mathamatical concept, and is not the ONLY way of ripping data off of a DVD, isn't this a way of squashing one's competitors? Main purpose of DeCSS is the viewing of the DVD, not the copy of it. So, if DeCSS is not permitted by the Courts, doesn't that setup a monopoly? Where is the FTC when you need them. Only way this would be a valid argument if the equation was copyrighted and it was a copyright infringement case. (Which makes me think of copyrighting A + B = C.... Hummmmm)
  • by idlethought ( 558209 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:34AM (#6077263)
    No license agreement signed, no license agreement visible before purchase. No license agreement. If someone wants to sell me something with additional terms they need to tell me before I buy it. So where on a region 1 DVD does it say "You are only licensed to play this DVD within North America or on a Region 1 licensed DVD player"?
  • Different Media (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ProfessionalCookie ( 673314 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:42AM (#6077341) Journal
    Actually you can do a bit by bit copy, but not with an off the shelf DVD burner, and not with off the shelf media.

    There are two types of DVD discs (not talking about + and - here) DVD A and DVD G, which stand for 'Authoring' and 'General use' respectivly. The DVD G media is missing a physical ring on the inside of the disc that hold the encryption key. A DVD G drive won't even write the key. If the key is pysically in the wrong place, guess what? the disc won't work.

    Still if they're gonna ban DeCSS (and they shouldn't) they should have a group writting DVD player apps for every platform with a DVD drive.
  • Hahahahhaha (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dh003i ( 203189 ) <`dh003i' `at' `gmail.com'> on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:43AM (#6077350) Homepage Journal
    Yea, sure. Just like the EULA's on software. Oh, wait, those are having trouble being upheld in court.

    If the consumer perceives it as being a sale, and isn't told otherwise, then it's a sale. As in, they now own that DVD in the same sense that they own a book they buy.

    Not only is their license invalid, and thus it's just an ordinary sale, like the sale of a book, but their license is also completely unenforcible, which means irrelevant. Encorfing their license would mean violating the privacy of millions of Americans and stepping into their homes, to prevent them from watching DVD's on GNU/Linux. No court is going to allow that. So, in other words, the MPAA's "license" is moot on two terms.
  • dumb. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Telastyn ( 206146 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @11:50AM (#6077432)
    Doesn't decss do the same thing your dvd player does to decrypt dvds? How can it be an illegal tool then? - unless of course any company making and selling a dvd player is doing something illegal...
  • by phorm ( 591458 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @12:42PM (#6077894) Journal
    And locksmiths use lockpics, or other special devices to open up locations where keys have been lost, etc. But, lockpicks are used by burglars, burglars are criminals and locksmiths use lockpicks, so that must mean that locksmiths are criminals.

    Geeze... doesn't this sound like basic High-School logic courses? Just because once group uses a tool for a purpose does not make the tool criminal, and does not make other groups using the tool criminals.

    Meanwhile... a warrant is out for the inventor of the coathanger, after it was discovered that this device could also be used as a tool for burglarizing vehicles...
  • by jedidiah ( 1196 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @12:47PM (#6077958) Homepage
    Bullsh*t.

    It's not the weapons, it's the training.

    If it were Russian soldiers or Viet Cong instead of clueless civilians, the US Army would take such a beating that it cry "wee wee wee" all the way home.

  • by Greg Lindahl ( 37568 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @12:51PM (#6078002) Homepage
    Go immediately to:

    http://caag.state.ca.us/consumers/mailform.htm

    and enter a consumer complaint. I said that I owned a DVD player and some DVDs, and that the California Attourney General's office was trying to prevent me from watching the DVD on my Linux computer.
  • by AtariAmarok ( 451306 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @01:34PM (#6078478)
    "breaking, entering and stealing"

    This abuse of words without regard to their meaning (but with regard to emotional effect) is getting alarming. According to them, you can perform B&E in your own house if you do something wrong with a DVD.

    It amounts to "A and B are crimes. B sounds much worse, so let's call all the A crimes B crimes so they look like worse fiends."

    "The program DeCSS is a burglary tool,"

    If this is the case, then I suppose it is a short matter of time before DeCSS is claimed to be a weapon used in crimes of murder and rape.

    If this keeps up, sometime next year, some MPAA or RIAA flack will be the first to accuse a disc pirate of committing genocide.
  • Re:Hrmm (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Fascist Christ ( 586624 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @01:40PM (#6078540)

    The courts have taken, and will continue to take, decisions that are unpopular with the public at the time, based upon what the law states, not on public opinion.

    Thank you so much for saying that! I'm glad there are people who understand how essential this is. Do you realise that there are states who elect their Supreme Court Justices? That is such a big mistake. If they have their jobs for life, they can make unpopular rulings. Since they can't be fired, they can even rule against government officials!

  • by w_mute ( 40724 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @02:04PM (#6078775)
    Take this with a grain of salt if you will. But on the list of his 2001-02 campaign contributors:

    RIAA - $15,000.00
    Sony Pictures Ent. Inc. - $5,000.00
    Howard S. Welinsky (Warner Brothers Sr. VP) - $4,000.00
    MPAA - $2,000.00
    Paramount Pictures Group - $2,500.00
    The Walt Disney Company - $2,500.00
    Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation - $2,000.00
    Universal Studios, Inc. - $2,000.00
    Alan F. Horn (Warner Brothers CEO) - $1,000.00
    MGM And UA Services Company - $1000.00

    Note that these amounts are only a small portion of about $12 million US in contributions. The largest portion of contributions comes from other big business (Telecom, etc), law firms, and casinos.

    -Greg
  • by knobmaker ( 523595 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @02:29PM (#6079049) Homepage Journal
    You have very little chance of fighting off a determined gov through ownership of civilian weapons.

    This is a popular view, and makes it more comfortable to accept the idea of domination by powerful police and military organizations. I believe it to be incorrect.

    First of all, an uprising in America would not take the form of such Hollywood scenarios as Red Dawn. It would in all likelihood begin in the urban centers. Urban fighting is very different from fighting in open country, particularly if the people in power count the urban infrastructure as part of their assets. In other words, the American government is very unlikely to drop battlefield nukes on Manhattan, because they'd be destroying their own possessions. This scenario applies to many other aspects of a popular American uprising-- from powerplants to factories to transportation. The military would be constrained in its use of overwhelming force by the practical problems of occupying its own country.

    Secondly, harassing tactics could prove so expensive that the authorities might be forced to negotiate with the insurgents. This has happened thousands of times in human history-- an inferior force has forced concessions from a superior force because it's cheaper than fighting a war.

    Finally, proponents of the "resistance is futile" viewpoint seem to assume that American soldiers are robots who would feel no misgivings about crushing their own people. I think that's nonsense. Members of our military have grown up with the idea that this is a free country, and that freedom is a good thing. A sizable portion of them would, in my opinion, mutiny-- if asked to kill their own people. These mutineers would provide both military expertise and powerful weapons to the insurgents.

    History provides numerous examples of disarmed people who were tyrannized by their own leaders. Far fewer examples can be found of this happening to armed people. Remember the American Revolution. The idea that the American rabble might defeat trained British troops and their mercenaries was an idea so ridiculous that few in England took it seriously. Until it was too late.

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