Librarians Join the Fight Against The Patriot Act 438
An anonymous reader writes "This article at the New York Times (free reg.) shows how lots of libraries are moving to destroy privacy related data as quickly as possible and still others have gone as far as posting signs and handing out leaflets to scare / educate their patrons."
Patriot Act (Score:5, Insightful)
Somebody please explain this to me... (Score:3, Insightful)
If that is it...then good grief, what are we talking about here? What is there about borrowing a book that should make it a sacrosanct activity like confessional, or attorney-client privelege? I'm sorry, but what books someone has borrowed certainly seems like it could be relevant to me. We're supposed to ignore this information, why?
Re:A library destroying data? (Score:3, Insightful)
No, it's kind of like letting you read a book, and then not running to the FBI to inform them that since you read "Catcher in the Rye" you must be a suicide bomber.
Re:A library destroying data? (Score:5, Insightful)
Libraries are trying to protect their patrons rights so that people will feel safe using what ever material is in the building.
Without having to worry about big brother. If we don't have the material to give when the feds come knocking, we can't violate a persons right to privacy.
Altp.
I told you to watch out for those librarians!!! (Score:2, Insightful)
Sort of (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Somebody please explain this to me... (Score:4, Insightful)
So basically the Patriot Act says that library records can be used in terrorist investigations. Is that it, or is there something more sinister I'm missing? Honestly, I'm not trying to troll here.
Go to the library and read some history, before the books are edited. Then you'll understand the problems. I imagine reading Marx's works in the 50's, no, not Groucho - would get you a visit, put on lists, and maybe even thrown in the pokey for awhile. These are not good times for freedom.
That's bad news or is it? (Score:1, Insightful)
I'm also for privacy but shouldn't we be able to search data if there is valid suspicion (obviously not if there is invalid suspicion).
Re:NYT (Score:5, Insightful)
Librarians (Score:5, Insightful)
Librarians are also the ultimate beurocrats. Where I went to college, the library shared some of its physical space with the administration on a supposedly temporary basis. Much later tha administration moved its high-level offices to another building, but wanted to keep its basic functions in the library. The librarians produced a 30+ year old document showing that the administration was supposed to completely move out once X number of square feet became avalible in another building. The administration was forced to give back the space in the library.
Checked out the koran lately? (Score:5, Insightful)
Looked at a chemistry book?
Terrorist.
Read Mein Kampft(sp)?
Terorist
Read a physics book?
Dirty bomber
Che Guveras biography?
Terrorist
picke up a copy of 2600?
terrorist
When they control what you can read and see, they controll your mind. Of course it wont be illegal to read any of these(probably) but how many people will check them out to read once they realize that this will automaticaly get a record started on them with the FBI. I odnt know about you, but i buy my copy of 2600 with cash. How much longer will that be possible?
Re:Somebody please explain this to me... (Score:4, Insightful)
So this is useless against people who are serious about committing crimes, just like a lot of the rest of the Patriot Act. What's it good for? Finding people who the government doesn't like.
I'm sure I know the answer to this question, but do you not care that someone might be sitting in a room somewhere some day, looking at a list of books you've borrowed, and using their judgement to decide if your interest one weekend in Nuclear Engineering means you should be flagged for checks every time you try to fly? Right right, you have nothing to hide.
Re:Canada the Irrelevant (Score:1, Insightful)
Here's another: The U.N.
foreign concepts I know, but if you want to sling mud, you'd better check what you're standing in.
Re:I used to be into fireworks and... (Score:4, Insightful)
So? You don't have to talk to them. If you choose to talk to them, tell them exactly what you said in your post. You are interested in chemistry and explosives and so was your father. "Since when was will to learn chemistry a cause for federal investigation?"
Don't be confrontational or start spouting shit about your rights and they'll go away.
Personally I'm so sick of the "padded safe world" the soccer moms and their friends want to create at the expense of the freedom to learn. Every time a kid blows himself up with a self-made explosive, you see his parents screaming about how the internet/books/movies made him do it. It's like the stupidity and carelessness on the part of the kid and bad parenting had nothing to do with it. And the society goes along with it. "They are the victims and we can't really put any blame on them then."
Re:That's bad news or is it? (Score:3, Insightful)
furthermore, though you might not have realized it, se7en was a movie. that means it is not real. now, if you could point me to real actual cases of serial killers, rapists, terroists, etc. being caught mainly on the basis of siezed library records, you might have a point.
Re:A library destroying data? (Score:2, Insightful)
Librarians - keepers of the faith (Score:5, Insightful)
This, however, goes above and beyond simply providing their patrons with knowledge. This is an example of a group of people with a very subtle power using that power to advance the principles of freedom and democracy. By actively protecting the right to privacy of their patrons and seeking to educate them about laws that have a very real and chilling effect on their lives, they truly are making this country greater by the day.
You won't see major media protesting this law; only showing how great it is that our wonderful government is protecting us so that we may feel warm and fuzzy all over. To see a group of people standing up in defense of the rights of citizens at the risk of being denied their own rights is both comforting and encouraging.
If any of you notices a librarian tearing up a checkout card, handing out fliers or putting up posters on this subject, thank them; they deserve that much if not more. They're risking their safety and freedom to try and protect your's.
Re:don't piss off librarians (Score:2, Insightful)
Speak for yourself. Not everyone is on "Your" side. Don't assume that every reader or poster on this site agrees with you.
Isn't this jumping the gun a bit? (Score:1, Insightful)
Question:
If the government knew a guy checked out a book on chemical weapons and the guy who checked them out was a Saudi exchange student and this caused a red flag that got him interviewed or deported, how does this violate my rights?
Answer:
It doesn't.
Basicly so that I won't be embarassed by checking out my books, the librarian is going to shred Achmed Al-Terrorist's records of books on explosives and chemical weapons?
It's not a violation of rights to keep information. It's what you do with information that may violate our rights.
The minute they violate the rights of law abiding citizens we should bitch, but why before then? They haven't done anything bad yet, shouldn't we at least give them the same benefit of the doubt we give foreign nationals who might be terrorists?
Evil Man
Pre-crime... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it could be relevant to terrorist investigations... And it can help find potential terrorists, too! For instance, if you see someone has checked out books on flying planes and September 11th, then they're probably a terrorist (or maybe a pilot); if you see someone has looked at books on chemistry and physics, they're probably a suicide bomber (or maybe a high-school teacher); if you see someone has read 1984, they're obviously a subversive commie-lovin' bastard (or maybe a student); if you've read anything on crypto, codes, Engima machines, numbers theory, you're obviously a cracker (or maybe a mathematician)... In any case, these potential terrorists, bombers, subversives, and crackers will likely commit crimes in the future, so for the safety of the little children, we MUST lock them up now!
This has been a message from the Ashcroft Bureau of Pre-Crime.
-T
Re:Somebody please explain this to me... (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok please tell me what books you have read over the past 6 months.
also what movies you watched.
and can you give me a list of the phone numbres you called last week?
thanks.
It doesnt bug you right.. If it does then what are you trying to hide?
Are you up to some Terrorist activities?
do you get the picture now?
Re:I told you to watch out for those librarians!!! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I told you to watch out for those librarians!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
So, they can enter your home while you are out, search and then notify you up to 30 days later. (reasonable is such an ambiguous word, isn't it?)
Things have changed in America. Where once the Fourth Amendment ("The right of the people to be secure
The courts respond to the "pragmatic realities" of the Drug War by granting police a progressively greater presumption of "compelling need" to violate the terms of the Fourth -- first in a few cases of "fleeing suspects"; then in "random traffic stops"; finally tumbling down the slippery slope so far that today, "It's OK that you killed these innocent homeowners in their beds, as long as it was your anonymous informant who got the address wrong. But you really should pay to fix the door."
The fourth amendment is history. Get over it.
Lived through the McCarthy Era? (Score:5, Insightful)
From the article:
"There are people, especially older people who lived through the McCarthy era, who might be intimidated by this," he said.
All I can say is, GOOD! I'm sure many of these same older people (whose sensibilities that some libraries are trying to protect) voted for the president and members of congress we have that gave us this act. All the better if they are made to realize just what they are voting for, and what is being done in the name of "protecting us from terrorsim."
Scare tactics, spreading baseless FUD, and all that aren't good. Stating the facts and allowing people to be informed about what the government is giving itself the right to do, however, is a different matter altogether. Those who lived through the McCarthy era may have the perspective to realize that they should be intimidated by this, while those of us who are younger can shrug off based on the rest of that quote (that the probability that any one person will have their records searched is low, since there are so many people).
-Rob
Re: Where's Ray Bradbury when you need him? (Score:3, Insightful)
To any of those librarians that might read /. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Somebody please explain this to me... (Score:2, Insightful)
I think you just contradicted yourself. If it's been abused in the past, it seems very likely to me that it will be abused again.
Re:Somebody please explain this to me... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's basically censorship at the reader end - if you can't stop it being written you can harrass everyone who reads it instead.
You think you have a free press right ? Do you still think you have a free press if reading a certain newspaper means you get questioned as part of a terrorist investigation ?
McCarthy-era fears (Score:5, Insightful)
There has been fear in the past about using people's book preferences for profiling on a larger scale. Took out a book on gay relationships? maybe you're gay. Took out a book about religion X? Maybe you practice religion X. Took out a book on living with disease X? maybe you have disease X. This becomes a lot more insidious if records of specialized bookstores are being examined. I seem to recall a case recently about a gay/lesbian focused bookstore refusing to release their customer records.
Re:Isn't this jumping the gun a bit? (Score:2, Insightful)
The situation you describe doesn't violate your rights, but it certainly violates the exchange student's rights.
Still, as long as you're OK, I suppose it doesn't matter how many people get deported for reading a book. Didn't I hear something about the pursuit of knowledge recently? Must've been some kind of joke.
Check out interesting books (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:p.s. on "joining" the fight (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:That's bad news or is it? (Score:2, Insightful)
You know, honestly, even being a resident of Seattle, this is a chance I'm willing to take. The complete obsession with fear in this country lately is astounding. Say what you will of John F. Kennedy, but he truly got it right (or perhaps his speech writers did) when he said, "The only thing to fear is fear itself." The fear-mongering by the current administration is what all this is thriving on. It has become so wacky and makes normal Americans think laws like this actually seem OK. I don't know the exact quote, but it too is dead on and I know many sigs on
Re:I used to be into fireworks and... (Score:5, Insightful)
they can take you and put you into a cell and hold you as a material witness indefinitely without charging you with a crime.
don't think it can't happen because it can, has, and is.
Re:Canada the Irrelevant (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Checked out the koran lately? (Score:5, Insightful)
This means there is little to no control even if the FBI walked into the library and asked for EVERYONE who checked out "Catcher In the Rye".
Very few people have problems with them specifically requesting information in connections to actual crimes, with oversight and proper paper trails indicating they are doing this. It's harassment for potential crimes that they collect data on without letting you know that makes people concerned.
Re:Now you KNOW it's evil... (Score:2, Insightful)
Remember, this year: Oceania is our friend, and has always been our friend, Eurasia is our enemy.
Next year: Eurasia is our friend and has always been our friend, Oceania is our enemy.
Anyway, you're still more likely to be killed or injured by an action of your own government than to be killed by a terrorist (Police brutality, prison, etc.), entirely more likely to die in a car accident, and entirely more likely to kill yourself. So, what is it we're all worried about?
Re:Somebody please explain this to me... (Score:4, Insightful)
> records can be used in terrorist investigations.
> Is that it, or is there something more sinister
> I'm missing?
Among other things, the PATRIOT Act allows the FBI to not only get a list of all web sites or books you've seen from a library, but it forbids the library to tell you that the FBI came-a lookin'.
The ACLU has more information here [aclu.org] and here [aclu.org].
Claiming that these brave new powers will only be used to combat terrorism is a bit misleading. "Terrorism" is whatever the government wants to call it. For example, the government at one time wanted to call computer cracking "computer terrorism". Or, consider the fact that Senate Bill 742 [yahoo.com] in Oregon, introduced by Republican John Minnis, would define as a terrorist, a person who "plans or participates in an act that is intended, by at least one of its participants, to disrupt" business, transportation, schools, government, or free assembly." Keep in mind, that means if you start a food fight, you could be a terrorist under this law.
Brings to mind a line from Patrick McGoohan in The Prisoner, "Why don't you just put us all in solitary confinement and be done with it!"
Re:The obsolecense of libraries .... (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you really need multimillion dollar facilities to house books?
I am the first to agree a book is better than a monitor screen, but it's time to get current and cut government costs. If books in libraries were distributed via network or if the libraries also offered community WiFi, wouldn't that be more useful, less costly?
Yeah, great idea. Lets shut down public libraries and tie them up in technologies that no poor person can possibly afford, because they're too busy spending what little money they have buying food. Then, when they try to educate themselves, they'll be unable to find any information, because it will be all but unavailable to them. Friggin' brilliant.
Why is it that technophiles have such a hard time realizing that there are people who are a) less computer literate than them and/or b) don't have as much money. It's great how people in the cushy middle-class can so easily forget about the massive poverty which exists in their own country. And don't get me started on this Utopian ideal that, somehow, computers are the solution to (and cause of?) all of life's problems.
Best quote from the article (Score:4, Insightful)
Good. Those people SHOULD be intimidated, because they've lived through an era where absolute bullshit such as this went unchecked and they saw the results. And I don't CARE if it's unlikely that the public records will be unchecked. It's unlikely that someone will win the $300 million Powerball on Sunday, but that doesn't mean some guy won't be $300 million richer come Monday. It's also unlikely that my local library will run a check to see who's checked out "The Art Of War" and "1984", but that doesn't mean that it won't happen.
It's at times like these that you realize how blind the general public really is.
Re:Somebody please explain this to me... (Score:1, Insightful)
I guess you haven't been reading
Re:Somebody please explain this to me... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Patriot Act (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Aren't public librairies part of The State? (Score:3, Insightful)
> suprised when they pay attention to what you are
> borrowing?
The government isn't like a private or corporation; its powers are clearly defined in our Constitution. Our system of government is based on the idea that the citizens have certain unalienable rights -- you know, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The government's powers on the other hand are derived from the consent of the governed -- us. Therefore, one can clearly be "cranky" if the government steps out of those bounds.
As for other administrations, well, it's silly to argue about the hypothetical. That's like saying that an embezzler shouldn't be arrested because well, who wouldn't steal millions of dollars if given the chance?
We can only argue about what has actually happened. The Bush Administration asked for the Patriot Act and they've demonstrated they're not afraid to use it. The Bush Administration has also been steadily undoing the Watergate-era reforms that were designed to reign in the Executive branch and now they're running amuck.
Re:Aren't public librairies part of The State? (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyhow, governments don't own things in the way that an individual or business owns things. Public libraries belong to us, not to the state or county that created it. We merely entrust their operation to them. It is their responsiblity and duty to operate them in the manner that best suits the citizens that they are sworn to serve.
So, yeah, I get pretty angry when the state wants to violate my 4th Ammendment rights at the local library. That's my library, not theirs, and they don't have the right to search my records without a clear, legal search warrant obtained with probable cause.
Thats What the Germans Said in 1939 too (Score:1, Insightful)
I didnt speak up because I was not a jew.
Then he came for the catholics.
I didnt speak up because I was protestant.
Then he came for the polish.
I didnt speak up because I was hungarian by birth.
Then they came for me.
And there was noone left to speak up.
(Paraphrased, I couldnt find the original version)
If you wait until the government specifically targets YOU, then you will be too late to save even yourself.
Not Just crazy places like SC (Score:2, Insightful)
Just in case anyone feels that this article hightlights only what crazy Santa Cruz does ...
I know that my community library shreds their logs on a daily basis. Internet user sign-ups are discarded within 24 hours. Years of old Interlibrary loan records are now gone.
Librarians are great because they protect our rights. The ALA [ala.org] is a great organization that really protects free speech.
Thank your local librarian!
Result is better privacy (Score:3, Insightful)
I live in Santa Cruz, and I am glad that this controversy has resulted in the libraries destroying old records. I am more concerned about Santa Cruz misusing the old data than about the FBI misusing its subpoenas. The best solution to privacy invading databases is to purge the unnecessary info from the database, and not to rely on controls on who can access the database. If the data is there, then it can be had by low-level workers who can be persuaded, bribed, or coerced.
The Patriot Act is great! (Score:2, Insightful)
Can someone remind me what we are protecting again?
Duty as Americans (Score:2, Insightful)
What would you do differently if someone was staring over your shoulder every minute of every day? What would you not read, what would you not write, if someone with the power to lock you away indefinitely, without a trial, was watching you every minute? If you'd do anything differently (and who wouldn't) then you must know that you are being violated with these laws.
Why distrust the government? Because we stayed awake in history class. Because we read what our founders wrote. Because we love our country. Because we love our liberty.
Don't think those rights you are giving up are yours. That's your daughter's liberty, that's your grandchildren's freedom. And they wont be able to buy it back with that US Savings Bond, liberty is bought with flesh and blood and suffering, it always has and always will be.
Re:A library destroying data? (Score:2, Insightful)
Personally, I'm going down to my local library tomorrow and ask what their policy is regarding the retention of patron borrowing records, etc. If they don't have one I'll definitely urge them to adopt a policy such as Santa Cruz's. I'll volunteer to shred the records if they plead lack of manpower. It is time to start fighting back against Big Brother while we still stand a chance. If enough people start protesting about the provisions of the PATRIOT ACT the Congress may take notice and repeal that particular abomination.
Bush is out of control. Cheney is out of control. Ashcroft is out of control.
Just my $.02,
Ron