Benetton Says No to RFIDs ... For Now 146
securitas writes "In a dramatic reversal of Benetton's previously announced plans to embed RFID tags in all of its clothing, the retailer has responded to customer privacy concerns and canceled its plans to go ahead with the project. Wired News and ComputerWorld also have stories on this stunning turn of events, which RFID manufacturer Philips is undoubtedly unhappy about. Benetton says it 'reserves the right' to use RFIDs in the future."
so they are included into clothing... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:so they are included into clothing... (Score:2, Funny)
No, of course not! What are you? A terrorist? Off to the Camp X-ray!
Re:so they are included into clothing... (Score:2)
Re:so they are included into clothing... (Score:3, Interesting)
Who the hell is going to walk around with a huge tag that looks like a woman's nipple after giving birth? Better yet, who the hell is going to leave the store with a tag that spews ink?
These can remain sewn into the clothes. I want them to stick to the current deterrents. They work, they are NOTICIABLY removed, and the items to disable them are pretty bulky. If someone creates a "disabler" like was proposed in a previous reply it wou
Remove them under your own risk (Score:2, Funny)
matress tags....
Re:so they are included into clothing... (Score:1, Funny)
If these 2 conditions aren't met, you're not going to know.
Re:so they are included into clothing... (Score:3, Funny)
What the big deal? (Score:1)
If they can be destroyed easily.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:If they can be destroyed easily.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Like a microwave oven?
Re:If they can be destroyed easily.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:If they can be destroyed easily.. (Score:2)
they can't be destroyed easily.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Only way to disable them is to locate them in the clothing, and tear them out. Those things are tiny, like smaller than a dried grain of rice, with tiny loops on the ends for threads to hold them in place.
the AC
Re:they can't be destroyed easily.. (Score:2)
Good thing I have a backup plan... RFID sniffing ferrets!
Re:they can't be destroyed easily.. (Score:2)
If you can locate them, seems like a few hard blows with a hammer against a suitably firm background should take care of things without doing any damage to the clothing.
Re:they can't be destroyed easily.. (Score:2)
The generation of RFID tags from early last year are quite a bit larger, about 2mmX4mmX8mm in size, but with no need for external antennas. The ones I saw were about 3mm in diameter, and 11mm in length. The antennas were printed on some kind of flexible substrate, which was rolled around the chip before the whole thing was sealed in
Re:If they can be destroyed easily.. (Score:3, Funny)
Sort of like watching modern cash register jockeys coping during a power outage.
Re:If they can be destroyed easily.. (Score:2)
Re:If they can be destroyed easily.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Surely it would be possible, but eventually illegal under the DMCA. Anything is possible, just some things could land you in jail.
I recommend everyone bulk up on thrift store items.
1) Buy tons of used clothing!
2) Wait for the RFID tags to take control!
3) Sell the clothes on the black market!
4) Profit!!!
Re:If they can be destroyed easily.. (Score:1)
How 'bout a ball-peen hammer?
Oops... Hold on, I don't think any of this will work. From the article: So do we just need to cut out the labels?Privacy (Score:4, Interesting)
With all these sort of things its a balance between privacy and eas of use. For food for example I can see why storing the Use-By date would be handy but for some things it just won't really work
Rus
Good Will (Score:1, Funny)
how many geeks wear Benetton??? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:how many geeks wear Benetton??? (Score:2)
Re:how many geeks wear Benetton??? (Score:5, Funny)
When they put RFIDs in Members Only jackets, I did not speak up.
When they put RFIDs in sans-a-belt slacks, I did not speak up.
They put RFIDs in expo schwag. Now who will speak up for me?
Re:how many geeks wear Benetton??? (Score:1, Interesting)
Sounds like a bad dotcom business plan.
Re:how many geeks wear Benetton??? (Score:2, Funny)
Truly, the future is a beautiful place.
Re:how many geeks wear Benetton??? (Score:1)
Not really that surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
The trick will be finding a way to accomplish those goals will maintaining the privacy of the customers. Perhaps some sort of decaying device that after it ages for a certain period it physically ceases to work.
Re:Not really that surprising (Score:4, Insightful)
Rus
Re:Not really that surprising (Score:1)
maybe (Score:4, Funny)
Re:maybe (Score:2)
Besides, if i remember correctly, they were planning to use RFID in the "Sisley" subbrand.
Re:maybe (Score:2)
Rus
20-year time lag (Score:2)
Well, shit, David Hasselhoff still has a career over there. A SINGING career. And those crazy bastards even think he was the best thing about Baywatch. Kinda makes me wonder about the REAL reason for the low birthrate over there...
Re:maybe (Score:2)
In Amsterdam, just about every other girl had a Sisley shirt on. I'd never heard of the brand in the US, so I was kinda amazed.
In this little town in Italy (like 5-10,000 people), there were 5 United Colors of Benetton stores. 3 regular stores, one that sold only makeup, and one for lingerie. Every other store in the entire town was a little mom-and-pop operation. In Rome, there's even one right in front from that famous fountain.
We didn't
Benetton: Clothing for Paranoiacs (Score:4, Funny)
A Threat to Privacy? (Score:5, Insightful)
a range of 10-15 ft. Barring society installing
scanners every 15 feet, how is this a threat
to privacy? You probably have a better chance
of being tracked by using your debit card than
RFID technology.
Re:A Threat to Privacy? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:A Threat to Privacy? (Score:2)
MOVIES ARE NOT REAL!
And you people afraid of this ultra-shortwave RFID stuff are about as loony as the people in the 70's who were scared to death of barcodes. No matter how much you protest, this stuff will be ubiquitous soon. And it will not change any of our lives except to make things a little easier. And it will force that loony 0.0001% of the population who hang out
Re:A Threat to Privacy? (Score:1)
I'd rather be considered a little paranoid than completely naive.
Who would have thought that borrowing a book from the library would be a privacy issue... Look at this BIG picture. Is there any doubt in your mind that if you CAN be tracked you WILL be tracked? Everyone has a different tolerance level of what tracking or monitoring is acceptable and what is not. Eventually it will bother you. I would gues
Re:A Threat to Privacy? (Score:2)
Re:A Threat to Privacy? (Score:2)
Re:A Threat to Privacy? (Score:1)
What is "reserving a right"? (Score:3, Interesting)
Is there some capacity that they would not have, but for having stated a "reservation of right"?
And if it's really a right, they wouldn't need to reserve it, would they?
It sounds to me like a rhetorical device where the speaker tries to sucker the listener into believing that some course of action is a "right" (i.e., undeniable), no merely a planned course of action.
Re:What is "reserving a right"? (Score:2, Insightful)
More accurately. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Benetton has said no to the publicity surrounding RFID tags.
So this particular implementation got onto the radar screens - do we think this will actually go away? Not in the slightest. All Phillips and everyone else has to do is make some quiet deals that don't directly impact consumers, maybe some business-to-business product, then find a way to make RFID tags "important to homeland security" and it's off to the races.
I have an idea for Philips, how about saying that RFID tags should be required on all products coming over the border from Mexico and into ports in the U.S. so that the Department of Homeland Security can better track them for suspicious shipment patterns? It would be a delicious use of both your lobbying power and the government's ability to shove intrusive technologies down our throats as long as they're slathered in a thick gravy of anti-terrorism.
Sorry to be Mr. Cynical on this, but we just watched Benetton take a principled stand on nothing excepting being an RFID guinea pig. I give them two years before they're back on board.
-----
Dramatic??? (Score:2)
" Benetton said in a release that it "is currently analyzing RFID
Where have they said no, as Cmdr Taco claims??
and then...
"Benetton
whereas Philips says:
"Philips said...labels to track its garments throughout its supply chain."
Something fishy here - how can Bentton track thieves, unless they have a database of tags and owners? Does it
Re:Dramatic??? (Score:2, Interesting)
You don't need a database of tags and owners to track thieves. Suppose that these RFIDs are sold in ranges. Benetton purchase serial numbers 100000 through 20000. As items are sold the RFID is struck from the list and the RFID destroyed.
Now if an RFID appears in range there
Re:Dramatic??? (Score:2)
So, what you're talking about is theft from Bentton, the mfr of the garment,before sale, and not the buyer. Why should I, the customer have to bear the cost for the creation and destruction (and possible mischief as well) of an RFID tag
Re:Dramatic??? (Score:1)
As for why should the customer bear these costs, get over yourself. The customer always bears the costs. You bear the costs for ineffective advertisements, you bear the costs when somebody else shoplifts, you bear the costs if the CEO snorts the companies profits through his nose. This isn't some sudden Orwellian turn of events like your Micro
Re:Dramatic??? (Score:2)
Why not? You bear the cost for advertising and packaging; neither serve any purpose to you after purchase. You also bear the cost for "shrink", a non-contentious euphemism for shoplifting and employee theft that occur before you buy. Are you bothered by that as well? Would you prefer that stores just pass these costs along rat
Re:Dramatic??? (Score:2)
Except this part isn't going to happen. Theft is in large part due to employees. If you give your employees an easy way to destroy the RFID, you aren't adressing employee theft. And if you aren't bothering to address employee theft, you may as well stick with existing theft deterrents (which are easily bypassed by employees)
Re:More accurately. . . (Score:2)
It was a pain in the ass. Even with computers doing all the work. Someone's got to model all the information in a GUIfied programme, but humans still have to interpret the data. Even when you have people doing the interpreting, it doesn't mean you'll follow their advice.
I think you have valid points about the bogus nature of using RFIDs,
What's the paranoia about? (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, I reserve the right to remove the tags after purchasing it (much like the alarm sensors put in CD/DVD cases nowadays), but while it's in the store, I wouldn't mind at all. The only groups I would have thought protesting this technology are the union workers doing inventory control now.
Re:What's the paranoia about? (Score:1)
It will always be based on the honor system (Score:1, Insightful)
It's not like one won't be able to disable or even remove such a chip, once it becomes known to your general shoplifter what they are, where they are and how they work.
Re:What's the paranoia about? (Score:2)
Re:What's the paranoia about? (Score:3, Insightful)
"Well, we know you looked at childrens underware, so we know you're a child molester because it fits our profile of child molesters"
"what the hell are you talking about"
"When you where in the store, you where tracked fondaling childrens underware, you're a white male in youi late 20's, single, no children. clearly you match the profile"
"They were on the ground, I picked them up at put them on the shelf"
"sure,sure thats what they all say. At least we got you before children started disappearing."
now you've
It turns out... (Score:4, Funny)
Purpose? (Score:2)
What's the worth of an RFID? to prevent theft? Last time I checked theft wasen't a major issue apart from the 14 year olds who will stash a pair of underwear in the pocket, seriously what is the point? (The cost of these things will probably outweigh the loss in revenue from theft)
Re:Purpose? (Score:3, Informative)
Inventory tracking
Re:Purpose? (Score:2)
Re:Purpose? (Score:2)
Shrinkage (which includes both internal theft and external theft, but also encompasses other losses such as accounting errors, shipping errors, etc.) presents two different faces here. First is the immediately visible loss of tangible goods, which was about 5% of sales many years ago. Modern tagging and security systems, better employee training and better computing and accounting systems have reduced this to under 2% of sales in most retail organizations.
Now, prete
DRM (Dryer Rights Mangement) (Score:5, Interesting)
Couldn't you design the RFID tags to disable themselves when the clothes are washed? Maybe have some kind of heat sensitive material that would disable the tag (or just melt) when it got hot enough, or wet enough.
I suppose "Dry Clean Only" presents a problem tho...
have to cancel my washing machine linux project (Score:3, Funny)
Re:have to cancel my washing machine linux project (Score:1)
Please be sure to let us know when you solve the Mystery of the Unmatched Socks.
Are slashdotters luddites? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's perfectly possible to make a type of RFID tag that doesn't affect privacy in any meaningful way. If the tag wasn't a unique identifier, but more like a product code (like the UPC code), then the only information it leaks it that it's a particlar inventiroy item, say, a red sweater.
No one can trace it to you, since--like a UPC symbol--it's not unique to item, but to the kind of item. And they could msake a way to disable them after purchase (like they do the little magnetized thingies in bookstores).
The privacy loss in unique-id RFID tags has a technological solution. I wish some slashdotter with access to capital would make a better, privacy-preserving widget instead of just hearing all of the bitching that you don't want the gov't to know you shop at LL Bean.
Re:Are slashdotters luddites? (Score:3, Insightful)
No, but some of us are afraid that steps like this could allow the proverbial foot in the door and pave the way for other privacy-invasive technologies.
It's perfectly possible to make a type of RFID tag that doesn't affect privacy in any meaningful way. If the tag wasn't a unique identifier, but more like a product code (like the UPC code), then the only information it leaks it that it's a particlar inventiroy item, say, a red sweater.
Sure, but who's going to enforce that? Y
Re:Are slashdotters luddites? (Score:2)
the cost to disable would probably be more then the cost of the id tag.
Re:Are slashdotters luddites? (Score:1)
True protection from identity tracking only comes when nobody has any identity.
Re:Are slashdotters luddites? (Score:2)
Fair enough, but is there no way to get around this?
I know the stores wouldn't use an RFID tag that's easily disabled (otherwise you'd have shoplifters running around stores disabling tags and walking out with the items). But what about a hard-to-disable tag (say, use public key cryptography to send a shutdown message to the tag, or activate a self-destruct of some kind)?
My point is that there's probably a technologi
Re:Are slashdotters luddites? (Score:2)
Tag technology (Score:4, Insightful)
Here is the link: http://www.rf-id.com to general tags site. Read all about them.
The tags are just that - tags, just like any other tag on your clothing. It is not as if unique id is "embedded" in the threads of your pants and cannot be removed. In fact, if you will continue wearning clothes with RFID tag still attached - you will look like an idiot. Much like keeping any other tags on clothes.
Incidentally, what is the issue with privacy, even if the tag was somehow magically embedded into the thread of your pants? The tag identifies your pants as being a olive-green khakees size 48L, specifically made in Malaysia by a 12 year old? What part of that is not public knowledge or painfully obvious? What part of that is divulging information about the wearer of such clothes that he/she is not already giving up simply by wearing them?
Re:Tag technology -- the thin edge of the wedge (Score:1)
Here's a quote from a wired article [wired.com]
That article make
Re:Tag technology -- the thin edge of the wedge (Score:2)
Re:Tag technology -- the thin edge of the wedge (Score:1)
Re:Tag technology -- the thin edge of the wedge (Score:2)
I think if they limited the location of the rfids to the colar tag (maybe by law?) it would allow the privacy conscious people to feel better and still provide the stores with the benefits of the technology.
Of course, a way to innoculate the tag at checkout (as suggested in several posts today) would still be better.
Re:Tag technology -- the thin edge of the wedge (Score:1)
Ah, but Today's Checkpoint devices must be removed at the point of sale. We're talking about doing theft detection with actual existing RFID tags that don't turn off. Since they don't turn off, the only way to distinguish between different pairs of tagged red knee-high socks is by having different info in the tags. Can you make a modifiable ID tag as
Oh yeah? Ever heard ot the EPC standards? (Score:1)
http://www.autoidcenter.org/aboutthetech_identifyi ng.asp
Companies are working very hard to make it cheap to make EPC tags, where each tag has a unique serial #.
BTW, is there much difference between having an absolutely unique ID, and wearing a set of tags that only matches 3 people in a million?
Re:Tag technology (Score:1)
A) Susie doesn't wear a bra most days
B) Janie wears tiger-striped thongs
The hub-bub isn't so much about the RFID's you CAN see, but about the embedded ones that you can NOT see and are therefore hard to remove.
Re:Tag technology (Score:2)
*scans*
Embedded ID tag #67176604192834-01
*searches*
Ah, yes. DuPont flamesulate flexible asbestos knickers, crotchless with pink lace trim and a flying windows logo on each buttcheek. Purchased from thinkGeek on December 19, 2001. Using visa card 1723-9911-0293-9935. Also on the order "Strawberry flavoured BSA audit lube, 55 gallon drum", "HelloKitty laptop conversion kit" and a "Windows 2000 for Dummies" book.
Thats the nice thing about a serial number for each an
Convenience vs Privacy: False Dichotomy! (Score:3, Insightful)
In the case of the Bennetton tags, there wasn't even any additional convenience for the customer; just a straightforward loss of privacy ("wow, she's back for the 3rd day, still wearing the same jeans!"). So I think that died because they couldn't come up with any "convenient" excuse for tagging your clothes.
My claim is that even in other cases, like FastLane style auto toll collection, there's no technical or engineering reason you have to give up privacy for the convenience. Instead, the designers and/or operators of the systems want the information, so they provide a benefit in order to justify collecting the information. In the case of auto toll collection, as pointed out in here, [pacdat.net] your toll debit card could be purchased anonymously. This has all the convenience and none of the privacy intrusion of existing systems.
But what's the big deal about privacy anyway? My claim is that when times are good, privacy doesn't matter. But when times are bad, it's too late! Innocent databases can be misused in terrible ways. When the Nazis conquered cities, they would use library borrowing records to find Jewish people. How long until the next J. Edgar Hoover or Joe McCarthy comes along and abuses his position of power? (Yeah, I know, some would say Ashcroft is already worse; I don't want to start that argument). My point is that it has happened here, and likely will again. The potential unforseen future misuse of databases is what makes me a privacy advocate.
So, good riddance to Bennetton's RFID tags, and let's get rid of the false dichotomy that's used to insinuate similar privacy invasions!
Damn, I was looking forward to it (Score:1)
Benetton? (Score:1)
Just Like Cookies (Score:4, Insightful)
Some of you might remember the huge debate over "magic cookies" (as we called them then) in the mid to late 90s. Around 1997, IIRC, it really built to a fevered pitch -- any self-respecting advocate (myself included) maintained that cookies would be the downfall of civilization, that they did nothing good, only evil, websites' reputation were based on whether or not they provided a Dreaded Cookie, etc., etc. Of course, we learned the cookies are useful, we developed tools to manage them, it became passe to protest them, and life went on.
Of course, RFID tags are just physical cookies. Much like with browsers, we will develop standards for how RFID tags should work, we will learn to manage them, and we will ultimately find that their benefits far outweigh their drawbacks.
-Waldo Jaquith
Re:Just Like Cookies (Score:2)
we now have session cookies, while not perfect they minimize abuse
persistent cookies can still be abused.
There is a certian bank, that if you grab someone cookie, you can get into their account.
And all you have to do to get that cookie is look for it whenever somebody comes to your site.
Re:Just Like Cookies (Score:2)
Why not just a sticker? (Score:2, Insightful)
You get your manufacture-to-counter-to-sale tracking, and your customers can be anonymous (assuming you don't actually log the RFID-to-CCinfo.
Throwing RFIDs out with the bathwater? (Score:2)
I think RFIDs have great potential. With a home RFID-finding wand, you'll never loose your car keys again (at least, the search wil go a lot faster). Everything becomes addressable by your personal systems (and others', herein lies the privacy-geek challenge). My fridge doesn't nee
Overheard in Ashcroft's office: (Score:2)
"Curses! Foiled again!"
Let's think it through... (Score:2)
So, why can't we all agree on the simplest solution? You already have a clothing label (size, care, etc.) attached to nearly every piece of clothing. Why not stitch the RFID tag into its own little label that says "Inventory Radio ID Device" and "Removal mandates purchase"? That way, it'd be opt-out. If you don't want RFID SPAM or tr
thats so naive... (Score:1)
Where have you been? Surely you see how current fashion trends are to replay much of the 70's so why not expect a revival of wearing tags on your clothes? Minnie Pearl did it, then later all the homies did it! Perhaps the techno aspects of this will in itself
Mountain Equipment Co-op (Score:1)
I haven't done surgery on my jacket, but the shape feels right.
MJC
Don't go back into the store? (Score:1)
I read that wrong at first (Score:1)
Clothing is RFID-free... (Score:1)
Re:OSS RFID's? (Score:2)
Re:OSS RFID's? (Score:2)
Re:OSS RFID's? (Score:2)