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Privacy Your Rights Online

Take Big Brother on Vacation with You 144

Posted by michael from the be-good-for-goodness-sake dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Book a flight or a rental car, and that trip and your companions' names, where you stay, what you eat, your bed size preference, in-room movie preference, and just about anything else you get a receipt for is etched in stone."
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Take Big Brother on Vacation with You More

Take Big Brother on Vacation with You

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  • Fingerprints (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rf0 ( 159958 ) <rghf@fsck.me.uk> on Saturday April 05, 2003 @08:28AM (#5668140) Homepage
    Yes there is lots of detail that is stored about you, and yes it can be used to work out if you were a threat. However surely much of the same information could be found by people digging through your garbage, following you home from work etc...

    The point I'm trying to make is that there is more information around that people realise. My supermarket know what I bought. Does that mean if the goverment saw that I never bought pork it means I'm Jewish or does it mean that I just don't like it?

    As with everything its the analysis that can be worrying which can lead to the wrong conclusion

    Rus

    • Re:Fingerprints (Score:5, Funny)

      by cperciva ( 102828 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @08:38AM (#5668162) Homepage
      However surely much of the same information could be found by people digging through your garbage, following you home from work etc... ... or by reading your blog. Sometimes I wonder if the ideal of blogging was initiated as a government attempt to get people used to giving details of their personal life to absolute strangers.

      • Re:Fingerprints (Score:3, Interesting)

        by rf0 ( 159958 )
        Yeah true. By looking at my blog and online photo album (which isn't hidden) then yeah you can get a lot about me. Of course if you have you own domain name then I might even be able to get your home address/phone number without even break a sweat

        Rus
        • Not really. Some domain providers never bother to check the info you give them. You could enter a fake address or a phone number in Bolivia and totally get away with it. As long as you pay them, they won't mind.

      • Re:Fingerprints (Score:2)

        by Anonymous Coward

        or by reading your blog. Sometimes I wonder if the ideal of blogging was initiated as a government attempt to get people used to giving details of their personal life to absolute strangers

        You mean like this [google.com]? Unusual hits from "homeland.fbi.gov" (which doesn't resolve) and "sseop101.eop.gov" (which does resolve, and belongs to the Executive Office of the President, under whose jurisdiction Homeland Security falls) have been showing up on blogs for the past few days. The initial speculation among bloggers was

    • Re:Fingerprints (Score:5, Interesting)

      by LordKronos ( 470910 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @08:53AM (#5668181)
      Sure, much of that info can come out of your garbage, but there are a few differences. First, I can take steps to control what gets put in my garbage. If there is something I really don't want people to know, I can take steps to dispose of it more securely (ex: burn it).

      Another difference is that collecting info by going through a garbage can takes active steps on the government's part. They don't have the resources to go through everyone's garbage, so they focus on those they are really interested in. When they are actively focusing on a particular individual, they are more likely to get the data correct (if a mistake is made, someone is focusing on it and is more likely to notice it). On the other hand, with a passive data collection system like this, they just throw bulk data into the database. Nobody is paying any attention to 99% of the data that comes in. If it contains bad info, nobody really notices. Then when your name erroniously comes up in a search later (due to bad data), nobody knows anything about that data. Nobody knows the context in which it was entered (you only bought Catcher in the Rye as an English class reading assignment), or whether you actually did buy the Anarchist's Cookbook (that wasn't you). Next thing you know, before you even have a chance to sort things out, you're a "material witness" in solitary confinement in a federal lockup [slashdot.org].

      • Re:Fingerprints (Score:2, Interesting)

        by harriet nyborg ( 656409 )

        or find nothing, and say that they did.

        no one knows what goes on in these black boxes, or who really controls how they are constructed and operated. the whole operation is a black box which spits out names.

        and accusations.

        if they don't find something, they'll make it up.

        they won't even have to say what is was that they made up because that would compromise security.

        secret police with a secret agenda.

        "we're with homeland secutity, ma'am"

        "we'd like you to come down to the station and answer a f

      • Re:Fingerprints (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward
        The government [is] extremely fond of amassing great quantities of statistics. These are raised to the nth degree, the cube roots are extracted, and the results are arranged into elaborate and impressive displays. What must be kept ever in mind, however, is that in every case, the figures are first put down by a village watchman, and he puts down anything he damn well pleases.
        -- Sir Josiah Stamp
    • My supermarket know what I bought. Does that mean if the goverment saw that I never bought pork it means I'm Jewish or does it mean that I just don't like it?

      Well if you don't buy alcohol either then you could be a danged Moslem terrorist!!!
      Well I'm just joking, I'm a Muslim. But actually, that very thing is supposedly flagged about passengers on planes headed to the US; whether or not they ordered a meal without pork.
      • Well if you don't buy alcohol either then you could be a danged Moslem terrorist!!!


        And if you buy too much pseudofed you could be running a meth lab [state.nd.us].

      • And if you say Bush is nazifying the US [hermes-press.com] , you could be a national threat, because they don't want people questioning and think. Just sheeps that will follow what the leader says.
        • In the US, if you say bad things about the president, you may be ridiculed by the population of the country and Rush Limbaugh.

          In pre-2GW Iraq, if you say bad things about Saddam, you will (almost certainly) wind up with a big fat bullet (or 2, or 3, or 9) in your big fat head/ass.

          See the difference?
    • If information is going to be collected and there is nothing that effectively is going to be able to be done about it, then I think everyone should have access to the raw data.

      For example, you might want to use it to demonstrate to your health insurance company that they are not entitled to raise your premium because you take care of your health (eat well, don't smoke, etc.).

      But thinking about how to micro-manage everybody's traits and habits just gives me a headache.
    • If you opt for a car with a navigation system from a rental company, some use the GPS location to locate the car if stolen. Great. But here's what you DON'T know: Those same systems can record your conversations while inside the car. This is no lie - government employees have been told to watch what they say inside of rental cars while traveling on official business.
      • What part of GPS technology involves audio recording capability? What part of hiding an audio recorder of some sort under the dash requires installing a GPS system?

        I don't know if Avis is evesdropping or not but that's probably unrelated to digitally recording GPS co-ordinates with time stamps.

  • If there is a Database... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by yoshi_mon ( 172895 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @08:28AM (#5668142)
    There will be people wanting to access it. And you can bet government will be one of them.

    It was just a matter of time as soon as all these databases were compiled that the government sought to legitimately get access to them. (I personally think that they already have/have access to all of this data, they simply wish to make it legal now.)

    What is the answer? I'm not sure, how can you stop people from collecting information about you? This is the Information Age we are living in right now. (Yes there are ways, but such as it is that type of behavior is going to be legislated away as "acting like a terrorist" soon I'm sure.) Maybe there is no current solution, maybe it's a phase that our society has to go though in order to realize that keeping track of everyone all the time is something that we really don't want in our lives...or maybe Orwell was right.
    • There's Orwell, but for a good read, try Sam Hall by Poul Anderson. Novelette, so you'll have to find it in an anthology. Like this one. [sfrevu.com]

      I hadn't read "Sam Hall", for some reason, and if I was putting together a post 9/11 collection of stories, I'd definitely want to include this tale of the downward spiral of an America that mistakes security for safety by issuing an id number to every citizen and tracking their every movement...and most of their thoughts. Ironically, I'm not necessarily against this sort

    • It was just a matter of time as soon as all these databases were compiled that the government sought to legitimately get access to them. (I personally think that they already have/have access to all of this data, they simply wish to make it legal now.)

      The problem isn't with "the government" getting access to this information, it's that there's a bunch of psycho loonies out there that think it's a matter of "us vs. them". The "government" is made up of our elected officials and in turn their appointees al

      • The "government" is made up of our elected officials and in turn their appointees along with lower-level hired civil servants who are, bear with me here, made of of ordinary citizens just like you and me.

        I didn't elect Ashcroft, I didn't vote for Tom Ridge, and I don't consider Donny Rumsfeld an "ordinary citizen." Yes, I voted for Senators, who confirmed these people. I don't recall voting for a single IRS Auditor or Army General.

        It isn't just the party system. It's that the party system creates the c
      • Um, excuse me but if the only way to get elected to an office is to become a politician...how are we ever improving our lot in life by electing ANYONE? I mean, if the road to change is paved in lies, compromised principles and deceit how does one affect change without corrupting the basic reasons you want change at all? The sad thing is, the republicans had it right to start out with - their basic concept of "big government=bad" was great until they realized that "big corporate=more money" and promptly made

  • convinence (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dhuv ( 241988 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @08:30AM (#5668146) Homepage
    I heard a guy from accenture talk about things like this and how it is possible with .net. He said if you want the convinence of companies to do things for you then you will have to give out information. You arent forced to give out that information if you do not want. There are options with everything. If buying some product requires you to give out your info then dont buy it and loose the convinence that it gives or use a competitive product which doesnt require your info.
    • where there are laws to forbid forcing people to give up information for simple commerce to take place.

      Even now, as grocery stores (Which are in many ways an essential service to modern cities) require you to use a "courtesy card" in order to get cheaper prices, they have an unfair advantage over the community.

      Yes, from a pure capitalist point of view, all's fair... but really.. forcing you to identify yourslef just to get a fair price? Rediculous.
  • If it's going to etched in stone, it better damn well be etched in granite. I'm not going to let those stingy operators short-change me again!
  • The collection of information has been out of control well before post September 11th anti-terrorist legislation happened. Remember 9/11 wasn't the first time the US government used fear to ram through laws that screw with our privacy. One example is the bombing of Oklahoma City bombing in the mid 90s.

    The Oklahoma City bombing, an event where a so-so president gained favor and popularity by passing feel good anti terrorist laws that served him the rest of his presidency.

  • Data Protection (Score:5, Informative)

    by grahammm ( 9083 ) <graham@gmurray.org.uk> on Saturday April 05, 2003 @08:33AM (#5668154)
    Keeping the data forever would be against the law (Data Protection Act) in the UK and I suspect also in rest of Europe.

    • Sure. (Score:2)

      by Erris ( 531066 )
      That's very nice of your future government. Force everyone to delete their digital data. I'm sure they will comply with their own law and delete the public copy of the information they collect too. With the great expense of making backups, we can be sure that no one will keep that data if their not supposed to, especially the government. If they do that, the terrorist will have won. Sarcasm off.

      The whole approach is wrong. Data never collected can't be abused. It's shocking that the public would tol

  • ...your companions' names, where you stay, what you eat, your bed size preference, in-room movie preference, and just about anything else you get a receipt for...

    What I don't get is why an airline company is even interested in all this data. I thought most companies log personal data only for commercial purposes (to offer personalized content/services). I can see some of the things listed could be (commercially) useful. What I don't get is what commercial use it is to an airline company to have informati
    • What I don't get is what commercial use it is to an airline company to have information on who you travel with, or what bedsize you prefer.

      If nothing else, they can sell that information to another company. Selling all the info you have on your customers is pretty profitable, the more data you have on them the merrier. SOMEONE will pay to know anything about you.

    • Re:why (Score:4, Informative)

      by surprise_audit ( 575743 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @09:59AM (#5668266)
      It's not the airlines, necessarily, that are interested. It's the reservations systems that lump it all together.

      Here's how it works: you go to a travel agent, or get online, and book a vacation. The travel agent (person or web server) handling it queries you for: 1) where you want to go; 2) when you want to go; 3) what kind of hotel you want to stay in; 4) what kind of car you want to rent; 5) how many (and what age) people are travelling with you, etc.

      In the case of Sabre (and probably the others quoted in the article), the flights, hotels and cars are all available in the one res system. So, the agent queries Sabre for flight information, finds something appropriate, marks it in the PNR. Then (s)he checks out hotels, finds something appropriate, marks it in the PNR. Etc, etc, etc. The airline isn't recording the info, the travel agent is...

      What you can do to avoid such link-ups is to book everything separately - a big PITA, but possible.

      BTW, Sabre doesn't record the PNR forever - once your trip is over, the PNR space is recycled. Some information is forwarded to the billing systems and from there is aggregated into trending data that's held online for two years. The trending data allows the data users to determine on a daily basis what's happening in the travel industry - where planes are needed, where they're flying half-empty, etc.

    • Airlines want to know what percentage of people fly where, for how long, how often.

      Look at these things that airlines do that should be downright unacceptable:

      1 - Overbooking flights while selling non-refundable tickets.

      2 - A round-trip ticket is often significantly LESS expensive than a one way ticket on the SAME EXACT OUTOGING FLIGHT. Not a joke. It's very common for people in the know to book return trips when they want one-way flights in order to get a cheaper rate.
      3 - You buy a round-trip ticket, b

  • Need for anonymous E-cash (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Lord Prox ( 521892 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @08:38AM (#5668160) Homepage

    Here is another stunning example of why we need true e-cash. Anonymous E-cash, just like good ol greenbacks but useable in the new (and still under constant development) E-conomy.

    Sure they say they will only use systems and tracking and cataloging and databases for limited uses and data types. Yeah right! Since when has the govt ever been handed a power and has handed it back after its orignal purpose has been fulfilled. I can't think of one sitting here writing this post. Once the system is built and limited powers have been granted, kiss off the rest 'cuz it is only a matter of time before the system/govt gets its fingers in the whole pie...



    Right, wrong, irrelevent. What is, is.
    • I don't want any of my buying history recorded but it wont be long since cash will look suspicious...
      • "...but it wont be long [until] cash will look suspicious."

        Probably one of the best reasons to continue using cash where possible. It's quite nice to have your bank statement only show "£50 at cashpoint x" every so often, rather than a detailed list of everything you bought.

        Interestingly, you can track your past movements quite easily by reading bank statements and seeing which towns you've used your bank card in. Who needs GPS-enabled cellphones, when your bank has a near-perfect record of everyw
    • Ecash, sure. The government abuses travel and credit card records let's give them the rest of the work too. We know that they would never abuse ownership of universal bank cards. It's creepy to think of them knowing where I vacation and about every purchase over $20 that I make. I suppose they might as well know when I purchase bubble gum.

      A free economy would have private banks issuing certificates backed by some tangible asset as currency. Greenbacks and other trust bassed currencies inspire anythin

    • There's got to be a bank out there that would be willing to go this route. All they would need to do is issue a temporary Visa/MasterCard number with an organizational name that would be backed by an initial cash deposit. You could even replenish your account if you wanted to keep the same number for a while. Is there some legal reason why this couldn't be done?

      • Re:Need for anonymous E-cash (Score:4, Insightful)

        by blibbleblobble ( 526872 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @12:04PM (#5668599)
        "There's got to be a bank out there that would be willing to go this route [anonymous visa]"

        Unfortunately, laws designed to prevent money-laundering make people very nervous indeed about the idea of anyone being able to spend money anonymously.
      • There's got to be a bank out there that would be willing to go this route. All they would need to do is issue a temporary Visa/MasterCard number with an organizational name that would be backed by an initial cash deposit. You could even replenish your account if you wanted to keep the same number for a while. Is there some legal reason why this couldn't be done?

        It already is! Visa [visa.com] "gift card" - like a regular gift certificate, up to $500 value, but in the form of a pre-paid Visa card. Mastercard [mastercard.com] have one

    • Thething is, it would be incredibly easy to do. You could work it exactly like the phone cards you buy at the store. You pay $25 for a "E-Card". It is only good after the store activates it (with a little less than you paid for it of course). It then works exactly like a Visa card. It can be used anywhere Visa can be used. The bank pays the merchant for the transaction since you already paid for the card. The only snag I can see is Visa/MasteRcard not liking it so they wouldn't let the cards bear the
    • Right now, nobody can make money except the US government because it's very difficult.

      But if it was electronic, then there would be times when security was breached, and massive amounts could be created. This would depreciate the value of money and throw our economy into a depression.

      Even if no one breaks in, it would be a lot easier for the government itself to create money, which could easily create the same problem. Sure, they might not all do much, but if thousands of government agencies are all doi

      • Right now, nobody can make money except the US government because it's very difficult.
        It's called counterfeiting. It's not that hard for some people do in very small scales. i.e. Some high school kid who decides to forge a couple bills. But if you tried to do this on a large scale you will get caught.

        But if it was electronic, then there would be times when security was breached, and massive amounts could be created. This would depreciate the value of money and throw our economy into a depression
        Ther

  • Hrmm (Score:5, Funny)

    by acehole ( 174372 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @08:40AM (#5668163) Homepage
    All part of the wonderful services that the government provides for us.

    regards,

    Citizen #4534
    CODE: ||| || |||| ||| |

  • get a grip (Score:2, Funny)

    by andih8u ( 639841 )
    Your driving habits are already tracked, as well as your financial and bill paying habits, as well as your web surfing habits. Its like you think that federal agents are going to storm through your bedroom windows because they found out you swiped a towel from a Holiday Inn.
    baka baka, mina baka
    • Let's say a suspected terrorist stayed at a given hotel the same night you did. They think he met someone there, and it turns out that you and he were the only people in the hotel dining room at a given hour, purely by coincidence. Now you're under investigation. Anything and everything you've now done will be compared against a list of things the terrorists could have used to plot their next attack. Any cash you withdrew from your account to make the trip with would make you suspect to.

      The problem is that
    • "min'na wa baka da yo..."

      The day is coming. "They" do want 1984 to come even if it's 20..25..30 years late.

      -uso.

  • etched in stone... or rather etched in clay (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bj8rn ( 583532 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @09:10AM (#5668197)
    This reminds me of the ancient city of Babylon, where the authorities also collected information (to govern better...). What happened was, that at some point they couldn't handle it anymore. The information they collected was out-dated already after the request was issued. In the end, their bureaucracy dealed mostly with collecting and storing information, not governing. Oh yeah, and they wrote it all on clay plates, which they kept in large storehouses. When the city fell and was burned down, the storehouses were burned, too - effectively preserving the clay plates for thousands of years (they were discovered in the 20th century - real datamining ;).

  • Yea ... we need not to worry (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Definitly this is not a cause to worry, after all, the government is on our side!

    It's just good they can 'disappear' you now when they find out that the waiter who served your dinner in Grand George Hotel, Bushtown, CA donated a part of his tip to an organization which may have the word "jihad" in their mission statement.

    Lets see, there is this guy who hates the US and who is suspected to be the 20th hijacker of the 9/11 attacks. The government screws up and does not find evidence enought to make him suff
  • Our taxdollars are going towards rocks, chisels, and paying convicts to actually carve our flight itinerarys into stone, when this could all be done automatically with computers.

    That's what I love about information technology - the tremendous cost savings it provides in keeping the french-loving commie peaceniks of the country in check. Now - I want a list of everyone on the island of manhattan who mail ordered anything french since the start of hostilities.

  • information overload (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thesilverbail ( 593897 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @09:27AM (#5668215) Homepage
    With so much information passing through Government data banks, a major problem that's gonna crop up sooner or later is how to sift through the junk and get to the significant data. I mean hey, if they're just going to be anal retentives and spend all day keeping track of people's sexual preferences, they're going to miss out on the juicy stuff (like who's been buying nitroglycerine by the quart.) So, maybe the sheer volume of information they get is going to insure us our privacy in the short term. If this sort of thing continue's, look out for data mining becoming the next big thing 2 years from now.

    • Except for the fact they probably won't sift through all that data. At least not in a meaningful way. Most likely they'll make up weird profiles. Ordering a pepperoni and green pepper pizza, then renting a copy of Withering Trolls in the Netherworld in the same day will get you flagged as about to launch a "bioterror" attack.

      Their database won't really indicate if someone is about to commit a crime, but they'll rely upon it as if it does. Not much different than taking ten people and executing them for an

  • Six Degrees of Seperation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AndroidCat ( 229562 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @09:33AM (#5668225) Homepage
    You're linked to a terrorist. Sorry, it's true. Come with us.

    Of course, through six degrees of seperation, you're supposed to be linked with everyone on the planet. (I question that, but without a traceroute for people, who knows?) My own link with terrorists is shorter than six. I once had some copies made at copy shop downtown Toronto. It turned out they were forging documents for terrorists.

    Chilling coincidence. But what happens when programs start grinding a large amount of data and flagging any other coincidences? Perhaps I once slept in the same hotel on the same night as someone who is a friend of someone who might be a terrorist.. (You see how quickly you can march through those six degrees.) I have nothing to hide, but vaccum cleaner information gathering and processing bears watching -- Because we are all linked to a terrorist.

    • An example of what can happen when the government collects too much information can be seen in Terry Gilliam's movie Brazil [trond.com].
      Back when I first saw this, I thought "yeah, right" but now it actually seem possible.

      Mistakes WILL be made.
    • I don't know about any terrorists in my downstream, but I've had stuff happen online that shows how close any link is to any other link:

      Last year I signed up for a newsletter about fun oddball stuff on the net. Later I learned it's from the son of a guy whose website was the very first personal site I ever bookmarked (at the time for virtual reality type stuff), almost 6 years previous.

      Now, think what could happen if it turned out that dad was a terrorist. Just by subscribing to this innocent n/l, I could

    • Re:Six Degrees of Seperation (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Degrees ( 220395 ) <degreesNO@SPAMgerisch.me> on Saturday April 05, 2003 @01:40PM (#5668917) Homepage Journal
      Amtrak did this to me (kind of), but it was before 9/11.

      One of my (ex-) father-in-law(s) is running from the IRS and has been doing so for years. One day, several years ago, my wife tells me her mom and husband are going to be staying with us for a month. Then it is time for them to move on. They want to go visit another of their children, and the best way to get there is Amtrak (Federal US passenger rail service). So I make the ticket purchase, and the Amtrak website asks for the names of the passengers. I put my home address for where the tickets were to be mailed.

      Months later, the IRS (Federal Taxation Department) sends letters to my home address, in care of my ex-father-in-law.

      I was able to truthfully send the letters back, stating 'not at this address, whereabouts unknown'. But still, it opened my eyes about information sharing and the Feds.

    • Yes, it is true. I'm just 2 hops away from one of the 9/11 pilots. And not just about any pilot, but Mohamed Atta. Yes, that is right: I'm 2 hops from the coordinator of the entire attack. And thus just 3 from Bin Laden, but in that respect George Dubya still beats me, since he is said to be just 2 hops away from Ossama (through the latter's father).

      It wasn't true at the time of the attack, but I've since met someone who knew Atta personally from his time in Hamburg. I guess, the boys in Brussels should re
    • Of course, through six degrees of seperation, you're supposed to be linked with everyone on the planet. (I question that, but without a traceroute for people, who knows?)

      According to the book Linked [amazon.com], it's more-or-less true. The book describes an experiment done by Harvard psychologist Stanley Milgram in the late 60s, wherein he chose two people living in Boston (the wife of a grad student and a stock broker), and sent their name, addresss, and a picture to randomly selected people in Omaha and Wichita. Th

  • Turn the tables!!! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by The_Guv'na ( 180187 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @09:36AM (#5668229) Homepage Journal
    If We The People(tm) are gonna get off our lazy whining arses and actually combat this shit, then we need insiders.

    People who can dig up dirt on high-profile figures, and not even blackmail, just release it. no amount of money can equate to something like a destroyed reputation, or a more informed electorate.

    The purpose of all this crap is to crush dissent. Read Nineteen Eighty-Four [by George Orwell, if you live in a remote Hebridean cave]. It can be done imperceptiveley, like stopping you traveling, making credit/loans more expensive or not available, stopping you getting good jobs, etc.

    Conspiracy theory? Yes, I could look up proof but I'm too busy. Ford in the UK is one example though, had MI5(6?) filter out anyone who would like a worker's union.

    You have [ok, had] freedom. The government and $BIG_CORP stand to gain loads of you lose that freedom and more information about you is readily available.

    Do you really want to entrust your freedom and privacy to groups of people with a proven record of corruption, megalomania, disregard for human life, and brutal crushing of disent, who stand to gain plenty from you losing those rights altogether?

    - The Guv'na

    Hey, you yanks, whats that over there in the toilet bowl? Uh, I think it says, umm... "Con...", "Cons... tit... ut... something". Hmmm nevermind, you probably weren't using it anyway.

  • Best Bit Of Advice (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mossfoot ( 310128 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @09:43AM (#5668244) Homepage
    Glasser said civil liberties advocates should instead focus on pointing out proven problems in proposed surveillance systems. "You cannot go out and argue that privacy is important when everyone is afraid," he said. "But point out where the scams are, why these proposals will not make anything safer, and people will listen."

    This is probably the sanest bit of advice I have heard in a long time. Bottom line is neither side is going to agree wholely with the other. The Privacy Freedom folks will see any collection of such information as invasive, and the Security and Safety folks will always think that the Privacy people don't see the big picture and some sacrifices must be made. Looking at the situation from a realistic point of view, without the personal moralities and agendas is the only way anything will get done.

  • Commerical data collection on PBS (Score:5, Informative)

    by MyNameIsFred ( 543994 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @09:46AM (#5668248)
    Several years ago, PBS had a show on various companies that collect data on consumers and the methods they use. A few points they discussed:
    1) There are companies that send employees to courthouses to collect data from public records, e.g., real estate sales, births and deaths, etc. (For anyone with a child, this is why you magically gets the first birthday photo coupons in the mail. For home buyers, this is why you get coupons from the local Home Depot.)
    2) Everyone is aware of data collected thru credit cards, but there are other sources. Everytime you use your frequent buyer card at the grocey store, they know who you are and what you buy. Similar things occur with similar cards at other stores.
    3) There are companies that specialize in correlating the above data with census records. Publically available census records provide average income and other information for each zip code in the U.S.
    Add this to airline databases, and credit card info, and you have your life history.
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    • Re:Irrational (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Katravax ( 21568 )
      You've missed the point, which is that we shouldn't have to fear the misunderstanding, the change of context, or the coincidences of our innocent actions. Your argument is akin to saying that someone can break into your house and steal your stuff no matter what, so you should just leave everything out on the front porch anyway.

  • Can you poison the data? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bryanp ( 160522 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @09:59AM (#5668267)
    For example, in the article (yes, some people RTA)

    They can list special meal requests, which may indicate a traveler's religious affiliation.

    A lot of people order the kosher meal on a flight just because it tends to be better food. There's also an option for a "muslim meal." If lots of people start ordering the muslim meal then that makes that particular data point less useful.

    I'm sure the more creative among you could come up with variations for other data types. (watch DVD's on your laptop instead of renting an in-room movie for one).

    • "A lot of people order the kosher meal on a flight just because it tends to be better food"

      Great, now we end up in the "Activist defending american rights by pretending to be a terrorist" category. Use cash, grow a beard, and take first-class flights with kosher meals. It's already illegal to post powders, how soon before a scared and clueless public votes to disallow acting in a similar manner to stereotype terrorists? Striped jersey and "SWAG" bag, anyone?
      • Um. I already pay cash for most transactions simply because I find I spend less money that way. It's a psychological thing. I do have a beard and mustache - neatly trimmed thank you. I don't fly very often but when I do it's usually coach. I'm there to get from one place to another, thanks.

        And what do you mean it's illegal to post powders? What the heck does that mean? Powdered what?

        • "what do you mean it's illegal to post powders?"

          It was another one of those "PANIC! PANIC! Anthrax will kill us all" laws -- people started posting flour-dusted envelopes to gullible voters who were watching the "Terror state red: pass this law or the world will collapse" television broadcasts, and thus not really of sound mind.

          So they banned posting powders. I feel safer already. But they'll helpfully irradiate your mail for you as well.

  • No more jet set. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by epcraig ( 102626 )
    I don't see how this will encourage tourists to fly, nor even to travel at all. All the air passengers now are business class who must fly, or change their jobs. The airlines need not wonder about why they're going bankrupt.

  • What about real Cash? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by panxerox ( 575545 )
    E cash is fine, but what about real cash? Ya know folding money. Thats impossible to track and untill they take off the phrase "for all debts public and private" the government isent going to be able to do squat.
  • Hey, if it's "carved in stone" I don't mind at all. When it's on electronic media then there's trouble .)

    More seriously, data exchange between computer systems has always been the biggest problem. The hotel computer might know you got a room with single beds but it has enough trouble just remembering that, let alone talking to some strange surveillance computer through a non-existant interface.

  • How long before retaliation? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Fritz Benwalla ( 539483 ) <randomregs@@@gmail...com> on Saturday April 05, 2003 @10:54AM (#5668384)

    My problem with this system is that there are some many variables that are under human control, changeable by casual users.

    So eventually this data is routinely collected and analyzed, and eventually people start having an image of what makes up their "threat score" or what really sends up red flags and gets your luggage torn apart every time you fly.

    How long will it be before I encounter a rude airline desk attendant or hotel employee, and make a perfectly valid complaint about them - and they retaliate by changing my check-in data in subtle ways to make sure I am harassed every time I travel? Hard to do in credit systems, much easier to do in ridiculously insecure hotel systems, and it might even be as simple as changing the codes of movies I ordered in my hotel room, or my meal preference on a flight.

    The government is making more and more information critical to their decisions on national security, with no understanding of the security of the data itself.

    -------

  • revolution? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by fearincontrol ( 622152 )
    I just don't get it. Call me dumb, but I don't understand these laws... or how they think they get away from them.

    Whatever the administration thinks, they have not killed individual rights / privacy advocates. Yes, the threat of being called 'terrorists' or branded as something near has silenced some of them, since 9/11 and the "War on Terror."

    However... think Marx's socialist revolution. Eventually, if the people get their ideals, hopes, and dreams pushed down too much, they will rebel. I believe tha

  • Think you have nothing to hide? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TarPitt ( 217247 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @12:22PM (#5668652)
    Personal information is very useful as an adjunct to any sort of hostile interrogation.


    This is well known in military circles, as discussed in a Slashdot story [slashdot.org]:


    Suppose the following scenario: you are kidnapped, taken to a small room and tortured, then someone asks you for classified information, or to betray your country, or to do something that every fiber in your being resists. Then that person proceeds to enumerate the names, ages, addresses, and medical conditions of your family members. Perhaps they include a bit of data on where they go out to eat, or where they work, of if there's an alarm system on their house. They don't have to say where they got the data, the very fact that they have it at all could lead you to believe that they have much, much more of it. Most military members have family somewhere that doesn't live on base (parents, siblings, etc.) Information is the most valuable tool an enemy can have.


    Don't think that only military prosoners are subject to this tactic. Police interrogations use this as well.


    And if you are sure you will NEVER be accused of a crime? Consider any civil legal action. The opposing attorney reveals they know all sorts of private facts about you. Will you continue to press your case, or will you settle on unfavorable terms?


    Someone with the personal details of your life has a certain power over you, regardless of how exemplary a life you think you have led.

    • I would humbly suggest the parent post should be modded to the roof.

      Knowledge is power. Information is power.

      [and in keeping with my somewhat cryptic state of mind this evening...]

      "When the fear comes from the protector, to whom does one go for protection?"

  • You think that's bad.... (Score:4, Funny)

    by thumbtack ( 445103 ) <thumbtack@@@juno...com> on Saturday April 05, 2003 @12:27PM (#5668668)
    When you use that grocery store discount card at 1AM on a Saturday, to purchase a 6 pack of beer, 4 packages of Oreos, 1/2 gallon of chocolate ice cream, a frozen pizza, and 7 slim jims you really think the DEA isn't going to think you had the munchies?
  • "...and just about anything else you get a receipt for is etched in stone."

    No wonder it takes so long to do the 'paperwork' when renting a car!

  • There's no way... (Score:3, Funny)

    by No. 24601 ( 657888 ) on Saturday April 05, 2003 @12:43PM (#5668710)
    I'm taking big brother on vacation with me... he'll hog everything and kick me around just like when we were young!
  • And PNR data are NOT conserved forever. With the 100's of 1000 of people we have which travel each days that would be really really really expensive after a while. No, we get hold onto them depending on what we have to give account about. PNR data if I recall correctly is 6 monthes to 2 years. Flight data is two days. Electronic ticketing data is 60 days to 1 years.


    Now the US governement may be tempted to conserve it more than that but it is a different story.
    • Apply Moore's law to these economically feasible storage terms and it will be obvious that it will become economically feasible to store this information longer than the average age of people (75) in about 12 years (assuming 6 months & that moore's law applies to storage capacity as well). Maybe it will be a few months more but eventually it will become economically feasible to collect and keep this kind of data.

  • Throw crap in the database (Score:3, Insightful)

    by grishnav ( 522003 ) <grishnav AT egosurf DOT net> on Saturday April 05, 2003 @01:49PM (#5668937) Homepage
    I don't remember where I heard this idea, weather here at the dot or in another forum, but it's one of the best I've ever heard. It was actually in reference to the data mining that national supermarket chains did with their "savings cards" and the like, rather than the U.S. Govt. The short of it was, throw crap in the database.

    Don't own a cat? Buy two bags of cat food, and give them to your neighbors who do. Same with a dog, or any other pet.

    Are you a jew? Buy all the pork you can get your hands on, and give it to the local charity, anonymously.

    Randomly buy (over-the-counter) drugs and donate them.

    Look suspicios from time to time. (Just make sure you aren't actually doing anything!) Let some of the cameras catch you. Make them waste their time.

    Rent two hotel rooms at once (if you can afford it). Especially good if you are purchasing an "upper-class" one anyway, and can afford a $6/night shithole. They won't know which one you stayed in...

    There are many other ways to do this. The idea is to pollute the database as best you can. Make the data in it so stupid and wholy inaccurate that the project needs to be dumped in 5 years anyway.

    "Sir, our intelligence shows you own a cat"

    "Nope, sorry, never. I'm allergic to them."

    "Then why did you purchase cat food?"

    "Because I can."
    • This is the way to go, but I have some other recommendations, too.

      First, who says you have to give *accurate* information for your supermarket store discount cards, or to anyone else trolling for consumer data? Safeway has something similar to my real name and an address that isn't quite right.

      Take every opportunity to fill out consumer surveys completely wrong. This can be entertaining if you try to make the data as contradictory as possible.

      Third, and most importantly, when consumer goods are easi

  • Dang, they must be using better digital media than I am...

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