Sun Sued Over H1-B Workers 1382
heli0 writes "The Boston Globe is reporting: 'A lawsuit filed yesterday in California alleges computer giant Sun Microsystems Inc. laid off thousands of American high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.' Could this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?"
Unlikely (Score:5, Interesting)
If, on the other hand, Sun looses this one, then bye bye US jobs and hello nice fat contract for Sun India. Which would be even worse.
No big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't see this as being so evil. I have always been of the opinion that if someone else (or a machine) can do your job better and cheaper, have fun at the unemployment line. If this is the case, then, sorry for the unemployed, but I doubt they would have taken a pay cut. Hell, they're lucky that Sun took so long to figure out that there are a lot of highly trained Indian coders.
Then again, maybe Sun will regret firing such a huge experience base. That may be.
I will say one thing - I don't hear people complaining about when overpaid middle-management types get canned for a new batch of college grads (from this country). I hope we're not indicating that we're bitter about foreigners taking American jobs? Because that would be a bit silly.
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Informative)
I myself being a H1B worker can attest to that fact is that I get pretty good amount of money - well above the average salary (even compared to time when the market was hot) for the given position. This despite the fact my bargaining power was considerably less because 1) I was in a hurry to switch my last job for personal reasons 2) most companies did not (and still don't) want to hire H1Bs (more than 60%). 2) has been true from the time I was looking for jobs after graduation from a US university (1995).
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
I think H1-B visa holders should be paid more than others at the same company with the same position - like 25% more, to insure that companies are filling those positions with qualified foreign workers, not low cost foreign workers.
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Informative)
Both of these statements are false. See this FAQ [ucdavis.edu] from Norm Mattloff (UC Davis professor and leading H1-B antagonist).
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Interesting)
I have gone and read the FAQ you linked. A lot of those are partially true. When the tech boom was there, a lot of H1bs regularly changed jobs, especially in the parts of the country where it did not take too long to get the green card. I myself have changed job once. My experience, and I am repeating, is that there are more companies out there who would not touch an application with H1B status with a ten feet pole. I still remember when I graduated (from US university, 1995), majority of the companies coming to the school's job fair had the requirement that you either had to be either a green card holder or a US citizen. Same experience when I changed my first job. Both these were at a time when the tech boom was at its full swing.
Nice numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
First, please back up these numbers. As someone BEARING an H1B replied to you, you're not even close.
Second, not that it's even relevant, but if an Indian can live on it IN THIS COUNTRY (remember, Sun's not shipping the work overseas), you can too.
Third, I love this "them vs. us" crap. The racist overtones in this thread are nauseating, especially for a site that is (supposedly) nice and liberal. Seems people tend to get a little more conservative when it's they who are threatened by the foreigners. Or did you also complain when low-end service jobs went to Hispanics?
Re:Nice numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
Get real (Score:5, Insightful)
It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with nationality. I dont give a damn what color the person is, I just dont want US jobs being given to people who are not citizens and haven't paid taxed, or contributed to this country in anyway.
That sounds like ill-informed claptrap to me.
I'm an immigrant living in Canada. I'm pretty certain that most people who have never worked in another country, let alone moved their entire lives to a new country, have no idea how hard it is.
Most immigrants in a technical field have moved to a new country either for personal reasons (i.e. my wife is Canadian) or for the opportunity to work on a project not available in their own country.
And you know what? Immigrants pay taxes too. Most immigrants actually have to bring a sizeable amount of cash with them as well to get setup. At a minimum, any new immigrant is going to be buying furniture, a car and putting two months rent down up front. That ignores the cost of actually landing legally in a new country ($1500 for Canada). All that money goes straight into the local economy.
And countries are not islands without contact with the rest of the world. The days of living in a bubble are gone.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re:Nice numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
You are completely and absolutely correct. The fact is that the west (USA in particular but not exclusively) has been sloughing off unwanted jobs on minorities or immigrants or offshore for years. However nobody complains (much) about Chinese sweat shops or Indian taxi drivers. But an Indian programmer? Well that's a different story.
In fact I think it's one of the most troubling stories I've read in many years because the fact of the matter is it says America can no longer compete on its strongest front: technology. As this [cnn.com] article points out, 88% of companies that move technology jobs offshore find they get better value and a mind boggling 71% feel the foreign work is better quality than if it was done by Americans. This is no longer a matter of Mexicans making our VW bugs for us, it's us not having the skills we need to compete in our strongest industry.
To make matters worse you now have people complaining that "people shouldn't be able to come to this country to take our jobs for half the pay" -- well, they also do them better than we do so obviously the problem isn't merely economy. We essentially have a request for welfare here: I don't do as good a job and I cost a lot more but please legislate to have me stay in work. But really the current cure is worse than the problem. Kick all the H1B holders out of the country? Great idea, train them for free at America's best companies and once they're the best minds in the industry hand them their papers and send them home to bolster foreign business. Rather America should be looking to steal great minds from other countries, not shun them. Personally I think this is an issue of titanic proportions, if America is destroying its technology sector by mandating stupidity and _literally_ telling its best minds to "go back where you came from" then I really think the ship has already sailed on American technological dominance.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:3, Informative)
The racist overtones in this thread are nauseating, especially for a site that is (supposedly) nice and liberal.
Haha! Whatever gave you the impression that /. is liberal? I'd say it has a libertarian tone, given the views of most cyber-addicts. Most of us are intelligent, peaceful, and wary of our rights being taken away.
Liberal, in the American sense of the word, is all for increased Government spending, and decreased social regulation. Libertarian is all about decreased Government spending, and d
Re:Nice numbers (Score:4, Insightful)
"It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.
"Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans."
Bobby Kennedy - June 6,1968
Te strength of our society lies not in our GDP, but in the health of our communities. When American work is outsourced in this way, it weakens our communities here in the states.
The difference between a First World Country and a Third World Country is essentially the existence of a large Middle Class.
We should restrict H1-B Visa's to protect American jobs just like we use trade tarrifs to protect American producers of Lumber, Steel, etc. Those of you who advocate the H1-B would soon make every job pay what the most oppressed person would accept with conditions that reflect that. Hence, we shall become oppressed people.
Wonder what happened to Allentown?? Flint? The same thing that will happen to the tech industry soon. "Solaris 10.2 - assembled in Toluca, Mexico".
By the way, "them vs. us" is not racist, it is nationalist. I have not seen a post saying that Native born brown folks should not get these jobs. I do not complain about low-end jobs going to Hispanics, but I did when they all got shipped to Mexico.
Slashdot is not liberal. Libertarian, perhaps, but not even Democrat in the liberal spectrum. If anything, they would be considered arch-conservative if the Republican party hadn't been busy in the back room re-defining conservative as neo-christian war hawk. Oddly, the conservative viewpoint would traditionally be to let the market decide. The liberal view would be to enact regulation.
The effects of the H1-B are most accutely felt by the American poor. Here, racism plays a part because the Indian H1-B holder is a far more attractive target for "Tech Worker with a background of poverty whom I can exploit" than are our own Blacks, and Hispanics looking to better themselves. Since Blacks do not have an equal field when looking for employment, you have companies composed of White Guys and H1-B workers.
Finally, a point overlooked by most in this thread, the true benefit of H1-B visa holders is that the employment is temporary. No retirement, no annual raises, no vested employees. So, even if these employees are paid comparably, they are still cheaper because of the lack of accrued benefit.
American workers fought and died for the work standards we now enjoy. Sacco and Vanzetti fought so we could not be forced to work 80 hours a week, that we could have safe working conditions. Immigrant and H1-B labor have been the two major factors rolling back the progress that our - OUR - forefathers extracted from the corporations with blood and determination.
~Hammy
Re:Nice numbers (Score:3, Insightful)
Explain to me please why a programmer should make so much money? Most of the programmers I knew could write the code they were asked to, it wasn't nice code but it got the job done. In other words half assed.
The idea that seems to be in most programmers heads is that they are better then the rest because they write code.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:4, Insightful)
Explain to me why a doctor should make so much money. It's all about training, training, training. A good deal of the motivation behind going to college for four years or more is that you gain the "skilled" designation, which sets you apart from all the low-wage laborers. School and training are investments, and without proper wages (no one said programmers MUST command six figures, but they certainly deserve more than minimum wage, which is where it will head with increased outsourcing) they become a waste.
Tell me, would you prefer our doctors to be replaced by lowest-bidder Indians? Are you still sure they can perform the job just as well or better than the American doctor who commands a higher wage but has certified credentials?
The bigger question to ask with this globalization mess is: where does it stop? Are you comfortable living in an America that has no more jobs for Americans? There's only so much outsourcing you can do before you've sold out the entire country.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:5, Interesting)
We benefit from this as much as suffer from it. Migrant workers, overseas labor towns, etc. It works both ways.
The United States is going to get MORE SELECTIVE about the value it gets from local workers. If cannot cut the mustard (and every employer wants a slightly different flavor), you are going to be replaced.
The US has no high marks for training in technology. Our students are constantly outranked in math and science subjects. Don't like that? The education budget has a little to do with things, and politically, that's out of favor right now. We are getting dumber as a native-born society.
Programmers in particular are simply another service job. There are plenty of non-technical skills required as well. So, you compete on many levels. However, for simply code monkeys, we are at a loss when a company accepts overseas outsourcing.
The country cannot protect itself from globalization and at the same time remain globally competative. I won't delve into this, but suffice it to say there is no reversing the trends of the past 20 years of trade relations.
So what can one do? Well for one, become the most highly skilled most valuable player in the company - don't ever become complacent about a position. And related, I believe one should train in skills that cannot be outsourced. Technical presentations and human interaction-based events are still the methods of businesses. Vote where possible to keep participating global organizations within a legal competative arena. Other than that, I'm open to ideas.
mug
Re:Nice numbers (Score:4, Funny)
Whoa, whoa, slow down cowboy. The Nigerians are too busy moving money between bank accounts at this point to undercut anybody. Get yer facts straight!
Re:Nice numbers (Score:3, Insightful)
I know, but even then the concept's off. Most of these H1B's are educated in this country. We're not talking about a bunch of retards that someone taught Pascal to. And if Sun's hiring them, remind me to stay faaaar away from Solaris.
The point is, if all programming work gets outsourced -- gasp! -- going to college to be a programmer will net you less money than a kid working at McDonalds. THAT is what I don't like.
and...
Yeah, and t
Re:Nice numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
businesses that outsource to india are merely taking advantage of the fact that they live in a third world country with a low standard of living. When they inevitably raise their standard of living, jobs will move to the next place. It has nothing to do with the competiveness of the workers there. It has to do with the fact they live in squalor and will do anything for a sum that is less is even possible to feed yourself, let alone a family, here in America.
I don't think it is WRONG to outsource, but I dont' like it. It is much better for my country if the talented peopel from overseas come here and contribute to our culture, technology, and promote american ideals. And I do everything I can to not support the companies that do it.
No, I take that back. It is wrong to outsource. Americans should have some sense of national pride and interest in investing in our county and our ideals. It's not all about saving 50 cents on a plastic toy. And notice how software and widgets NEVER become cheaper to the consumer after manufacturing or coding goes overseas. Ever. american companies that don't support american workers and the america system are useless, greedy, and will gut the country that made them what they are.
And pulling out the racist card is just plain stupid. Not wanting your country's economy and your high tech industry to get sucked overseas in a mad dash profit grab is not racist. Nobody thinks, damned, i'm in the unemployment line due to greedy unchecked capitalists using unfair competition that I have no control over, but at least some other country got the jobs! This would not be realistic, and it's not racially based. People want to eat. that's the bottom line.
I support H1Bs, but i think they should be paid more fairly. I love getting talented people to work with. But no, they shouldn't replace americans just because they are cheaper. if they are younger, more energetic, and smarter, fine. that's teh problem that we have in tech. youth rules this industry. less so in semiconductors where i work, because experience is priceless. software that isn't the case so much.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:4, Insightful)
These days it's not good enough that you make money. It's not good enough that you make a little more money. You have to make more money and convince the market that you will continue to make "more" money. If you don't, your stock price drops, people sell it off, you can't get the capital necessary to expand and compete... Pretty soon you AREN'T making money any more, and a viable company has been flushed down the tubes.
This is what is wrong with companies now. This is why we are outsourcing everything. No one is happy having a stock that grows slowly. They want instant increase. 10-20% growth in that mutual fund every year or else they dump it.
If you have a 401(k) that owns stock or mutual funds you are part of the reason. If you directly own stock or mutual funds you are part of the reason. Don't hold yourself blameless.
America is at a turning point. We have the largest middle class in the world, but we are having to compete with countries that have manufacturing technology equal to our own (thanks to American companies exporting it) that have NO middle class. It will take YEARS for them to develop one, and until then we are in big trouble. Expect to see either the decline of American middle class, or massive massive trade barriers in the future.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:4, Insightful)
What happens is then the HR droids say, "If you're so desperate that you have to take a pay cut, you mustn't be any good because you couldn't find anyone to hire you without the pay cut."
Re:No big deal (Score:3, Informative)
Joe
I manage offshore developers (Score:3, Interesting)
w.r.t "programming is not like working at mcd's", this is increasingly less true, relatively speaking, given the huge number of unemployed skilled developers. it's supply and demand -- when there are a large number of skilled programmers/QA engineers/etc able to live comfortably on less than 1/2 their western counterparts, economics101 says, that's who will get the jobs.
Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:5, Insightful)
People do not have a right to two cars, a huge house, overseas vacations, etc. They do however have a right to a government that looks out for the well-being of their own nation, their own people.
Why the fuck do I pay taxes? It's for services rendered. One of those services is that my government does not sell me and my community out so that one guy can have twenty-two cars, a huge home abroad and a two week vacation here.
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere. If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
You can fuck right off, and take your fucking multinationals with you.
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:5, Interesting)
True in part, but you can't get that by cutting taxes, somehow the government has to pay for it, so either you have to pay the appropriate taxes for this or you have to look out for yourself. Normally the people screaming about too much regulation are the ones that start screaming for the government when they want something from it. You can't have it both ways.
Why the fuck do I pay taxes? It's for services rendered. One of those services is that my government does not sell me and my community out so that one guy can have twenty-two cars, a huge home abroad and a two week vacation here.
True enough, but I am sure you were all in favour of the latest tax cuts?
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere.
Wrong, that is how companies would like to see themselves portrait but at the end of the day for them (and their shareholders) it is all about profits. Sure they like to say: "Stay out of this government, we can take care of it." But they will only do just enough to look at least halfway good.
If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
There has to be a tradeoff: You can't grow indefinetly and as such you have to give up one of your cars in order for someone else to be able to use the resources. You can easily lower your standard of living (well most people can) without really impacting your QUALITY of living.
You can fuck right off, and take your fucking multinationals with you.
If you would revert back to a time before the "globalization" and produce everything at home your standard of living would diminish even faster. The costs for the companies would be higher, the companies would look for other ways to cut corners and in the end you wouldn't be better off.
There have been studies done that show very clearly that the countries (as a whole) who profited most from Globalization are the first world countries.
All your government owes you troll (Score:3, Insightful)
If one person can't take care of him/herself, then how do you expect a small group of people like the government to be able to take care of a much larger group like whiny IT workers?
If people are not personally responsible for themselves, then the government wont be either. That's just how things are.
If Jobs go overseas, then do something else!!! P
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:5, Insightful)
See, here's where I think you're a bit off. The government's job is not just to protect corporations and their profits. That may seem like what they're doing now, but it's not what they're supposed to be doing. A while back (around the time of the Civil War), one of our presidents put it better than I can hope to do here, "...Government of the people, by the people and for the people..."
So while I fully acknowledge that I have no entitlement to a job and take full responsability for find a job every time I get laid off, it is the government's job to make every effort to keep jobs in this country. It should do this if only to maintain the tax revenue generated by a working public. A skilled worker at Sun making $80k/year will pay about $15k per year in federal taxes and about $5k in state taxes. That same job filled by a skilled Indian worker generates nothing for the government. When you add in unemployment compensation and everything else that goes along with shipping jobs overseas, I think we all have a right to cry foul to our government when we see them making policies that do not discourage companies from laying off American workers.
Basically, were I to be unemployed (I'm not, lest you think by the argument that I'm making that I am), I would have no right to complain to the government about my personal situation. That is my own responsibility. But I have every right to complain about the broader situation that we as a country are facing. Our government should represent us first, not our employers.
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Interesting)
I make less than $20k a year & always have in the tech industry, but it's the tech industry on the east coast (& heck it's not even really 'coastly' unless you count lake Erie). I can barely pay for a car, apartment, insurance, & food with a little extra... I have problems getting another job because the companies would like to outsource rather than hire me for a little more than I make now (maybe I could buy a house or pay back those college loans that would make it so I'd have to live in a box to pay them back atm)...
The problem isn't just in the bigger cities of the west coast, it's everywhere. They have a much lower cost of living (especially if actually in... say... India) & often even those coming here stick together, which to be honest we (the ones already in this country) don't so they can live on less...
It has nothign to do with people insisting on having "two cars, a huge home, a boat, a 2 week overseas vacation, etc", it has everythign to do with making a living in a global market we are ill prepared for as a workforce...
it's about corporate greed (Score:5, Insightful)
Does it go to help starving babies in africa? no.
Does it go to help starving babies in china? no.
Does it go to help starving babies in the US? no.
Or even:
Does it go to Sun's R&D dept? no.
The money goes into the wallet of the rich men who did it in the first place.
We have hired the government to "promote the general welfare" is how it is worded in the preamble to the constitution. For this service, we pay taxes. The government is supposed to defend the common man from the powerful and greedy. That includes greedy corporate executives willing to remove the big screen tv from your living room and put it in his own.
If you think losing your job to a foreigner with an H1B is nothing to get upset over - try doing it yourself sometime.
Most people in this thread are missing the point. It's not about racism. It's not about losing our jobs to the "damn foreigners". It's about protecting private citizens from corporate greed. That's one of our government's jobs, and they're sucking at it.
Re:No big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd be alot happier with globalization if I, as a consumer, saw some more of the benefits. As it is, it's mainly the to the advantage of large corporations, not the consumer. Look at things like region coding for examples.
Re:No big deal (Score:3, Informative)
You could go even further with your comment about globalization keeping costs down, however. Look at the pressure to increase quality - the ave
yes, BIG deal actually (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a great movie out by Micheal Moore called "Roger & Me". It is about Moore's attempt to get an interview with the CEO of General Motors (named Roger). Moore is from Flint Michigan, where General Motors had most of it's factories. Until they were shut down and moved to Mexico. Flint turned into a hell hole. Crime skyrocketed, many people were kicked out of their homes. There just weren't enough jobs to go around when that factory left. The city, in it's stupidity, just built more jails to deal with the problem. I think we are going to see a lot more of this as globalization takes root.
I think the only people benefitting from globalization are the 3rd world countries, and those just entering their industrial/technical revolutions (eg China).
The economy is more than just cheaper imports. Think about the jobs that are gone because of those cheaper imports. And don't give me this "Oh well, have fun in the unemployment line" because this offshore movement thing is moving up the ranks. We are seeing tech jobs go overseas. This isn't manufacturing that any kid with a GED gets a job at.
Re:yes, BIG deal actually (Score:3, Insightful)
Case in point: Flint Michigan. What happened to all the neighborhoods and businesses when the GM plants were closed? Go rent "Roger & Me" by Micheal Moore for an explanation.
If you work at a restaraunt, and suddenly the plant/company employing most of the local population goes offshore/out of state, who is going to be able to afford to go to your restaraunt?
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not so simple though. You can berate the U.S. for it's general consumption, etc, but if you're an individual, how can you compete with foreign labor that's earning less than the poverty line in the U.S.? Should you emigrate to another country just to be able to compete with their much lower cost of living.
I realize that competing in a global market has its cost, but the people making the big money only make more from the short term gains.
So my concern isn't so much with foreign workers (I think everyone should be able to play on a level field), but with the erosion of the middle class that's inherent in such a system (and when Country X's engineers start to demand more, then Country Y will have its resources grown and allocated)... if you repeat this long enough, and assume that all resources can be tapped, then you'll have a global lower class with an elite upper class. I think increasing the economic conditions for people in (e.g.) Ethiopia is a very good thing, but I think that the consolidation of wealth for a very few (typically corporations) in an age where we have thing like the DCMA being passed etc is a bad thing. I'm just not sure if this is the best tradeoff.
And I really hate even touching on arguments like these, because it's very easy for other people to throw ethnicity out there, etc, but I'm not concerned about U.S. Citizens (who can be of any ethnicity) but about foreign citizens (possibly also the same). So it's not about race, at least directly.
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
When you lose your job that way your opinion is gonna change reaaaal fast...
Re:No big deal (Score:3, Insightful)
1. H1B can't earn less than average salary. So while people would complain they can't get $60k/year any more, they still can compete in terms of salary by asking for average (while average, certainly, can slowly spiral downwards, a few high paid positions usually don't let it collapse)
2. When position is transferred to another country, there's no average. So it effectively turns into $10k/year for the company, which makes it think "Hm... now THAT's how we'll make our investors happy!".
3. W
Apples to Oranges: H-1B's are endentured servants (Score:5, Insightful)
Then flood different professions equally! Allow auto mechanics, doctors, etc. to just flood in also, then things will be more even.
Also, the gov should have given people time to switch careers rather than just ruin their life over night. First it should issue formal warnings that it intends to kill IT careers with cheap foriengers so career planners can give better advice. Right now the gov predicts *more* IT jobs in the future because they did not factor cheap foreign labor.
Second, an H-1B is essentally an indentured servant. H-1B's cannot job shop in the US. If they are fired, they have to go back to India. Thus, they work their tail off to keep their job.
Nobody should have to compete with slaves!
Re:No big deal (Score:3, Interesting)
Not if you're shifting to a maintaining phase as the principals exit out of the company, eliminating their equity and dumping out of the slowly dying entity.
Not that anyone would claim this strategy, but some analysis on Ford indicates this may have taken place and may limit their ability to survive. Years of slashed reinvestment, shifting revenues to payouts to shareholders, and the loss of most of the competent decision m
Re:Quality of Indian coders (Score:3, Insightful)
There are bad Indian workers out there, of course. But not all of them are that way. Judge by the individual, not by the group.
I did interviews for Sun, when our group was hiring (the same time Guy Santiglia of th
Re:Unlikely (Score:3, Interesting)
I doubt it. Besides the fact that Sun already has one foot in the grave, Sun does a lot of business with the US government. If something like your scenario plays out, it could kiss future contracts goodbye.
Illegal???? (Score:3, Insightful)
I have to wonder if the USian labor force isn't partly to blame by pricing themselves out of the market.
Re:Illegal???? (Score:3, Insightful)
yes but if your cheaper help is an immigrant who is here under false pretenses, you just might be going to jail.
Re:Illegal???? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes.
Isn't that sort of the way business has been done for a million years now?
Yes.
It's not like the auto industry hasn't been doing this for years by building plants in other countries to take advantage of their cheap labor.
It's exactly the same thing. Except that now it's white collar jobs that are leaving. A better analogy would be like Ford firing all the factory workers and importing Mexicans to have them work in factories here, but paying them half. They can't do that though. It's illegal. They don't have an h1-b program because anyone can be trained to be an auto worker. So they moved the factories elsewhere. Ultimately, that's what will happen to IT. So it's a losing battle. I plan to get out of IT.
Unfortunately, IT workers don't have a labor union or trade organization to defend us. Doctors are numerous all over the world. Why don't they come here and charge half? Because of the AMA. It's extremely difficult to get your medical training in another country, then come here and practise medicine. IT workers require no licensing, have no organization, and can be trained anywhere. Hindsight is 20/20. It was sort of inevitable.
I have to wonder if the USian labor force isn't partly to blame by pricing themselves out of the market.
This is more like shit happens. IT workers don't set the rates. Wouldn't they make it higher now if they could? The rates are set by the market.
Re:Illegal???? (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not at all the same thing. The equivalent is software shops that outsource their development to a foreign contractor or subsidiary. Even then, the cars are subject to significant transport costs and import tariffs. Neither of these constraints apply to software.
Um... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Um... (Score:3, Insightful)
"Your Rights are On the line"
The way I see it, if you're a legal resident of the US and are just as skilled as the H1-B candidate, you have the right to first hire.
Re:Um... (Score:3, Insightful)
I have no problem with H1B's (Score:5, Insightful)
H1B has to change (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason for getting an H1B is that the worker supposedly has skills that cannot be found in America. In reality, most of the time this skill is the ability to work for meager pay. If we follow the spirit of H1B, the worker is valuable to the US economy because of his special skills, not just to one corporation.
It's time to let H1B recipients have the right to change jobs, demand more pay, and be treated like [american] humans. US workers should not fear this unless they lack skills themselves - all it will do is dry up the pool of conscripted foreigners. US corporations should not fear this, unless they intend to treat H1B workers poorly - good corporations should be able to retain American and H1B employees.
Re:I have no problem with H1B's (Score:3, Informative)
1) H1B's can work for a very low wage
A) FALSE: The dept of labor has a prescribed minimum wage for H1B's.
Anecdote: A company that I know had a paycut, but did not cut some of the H1'B salaries because they would then fall under the dept of labor's limit.
2) H1B's are equivalent to slavery
A) FALSE: They come on their own wish. They can leave to their country whenever they want to (often much richer, 'cuz the spare money saved here equates a la
Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
If that's the case, why isn't Americas marketing and executive class full of H1-Bs? If India is competant at generating engineers then I'm sure they're highly skilled at generating MBAs and marketing people, too.
The fact is that H1-B is solely an excuse for corporations to keep engineering pay low. There's just no other logical conclusion you can reach.
I've had this discussion with numerous marketing execs before and in the final analysis they have the idea that engineers are ALWAYS worth less than marketing and must always be paid less, and that much of their motivation for seeking H1Bs has been driven largely by the fact that they can't justify driving marketing salaries any higher in response to market-driven increases in engineering salaries.
The market-driven reality should have been that marketing salaries went lower than engineering salaries, simply due to market demand. But this didn't happen, due to some weird class system that values the marketing/executive class above all others, even when the market will not sustain it!
Umm... (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see how this is wrongful termination because it's done for business reasons, and I don't see how it's racial discrimination, as Sun probably has hundreds of employees of different races working for them.
If the cheap workers were (white) Americans this wouldn't even be news. Sure worker visas are being exploited, but it's not illegal. American workers are pricing themselves out of jobs more than anything else.
Reason for H1B Visas (Score:4, Interesting)
That being said, my wife is currently here on an H1B, and I am fairly sure that there are not many people that can do her job and I believe she is working via an H1B on all legal issues.
Here is how it works. (Score:3, Informative)
1. Employer is requred by law to advertise the position, a job already filled by an H1-B holder. These ads are easy to identify, they are very, very specific, and are low-cost small-type ads. They specify US citizenship required.
2. Clueless folks that can't smell these ads send in resumes.
3. Employer is required to document why each and every respondent doesn't qualify.
3a. Some resumes are so far off that an HR drone c
why not forming a union? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:why not forming a union? (Score:3, Flamebait)
The problem is that the corporations have been using every tactic to keep unions out of the skilled engineering field. Employees are fed propoganda that unions are counter-productive and that employees already have the benefits that unions have historically fought for for decades (health insurance, disability insurance, vacation time, retirement funds, etc). Corporations screen applicants for any history of un
This happens everywhere. (Score:5, Interesting)
Three of them are US Citizens. I am one of them.
We will see job postings go up in our break room, and submit the resume's of people we know who need jobs, but the job listings are basically a reprint of the resume of the H1B that the company has selected. So, they have all this extraneous stuff that you wouldn't use in that job, but they are considered "job requirements" and THAT is how they can tell the INS that "We can't find an equally qualified citizen."
I guess it wouldn't be so bad if we didn't work for clients and have to travel on site, and many of our clients will ONLY want US Citizens. So, that leaves the three of us to do ALL of the travelling, even if there has been a personal tragedy in our life. (And one of us has a newborn child, so she's not travelling either...)
I guess I can look at this a few ways. A) My life is a wreck right now because I can't stay home, but B) I have insane job security, something that is a very good thing to have in today's economy.
Re:This happens everywhere. (Score:4, Informative)
Besides it being a tough environment to work in (almost all communication was in Chinese, most of the engineers spoke little to no english and my Manderin sucks except for curses), it also meant that I ended up doing all the traveling even though it wasn't in my job description. It made me miserable -- I'm just not the sort of person who enjoys flying to client sites on 24 hour notice, working in someone else's machine room, being away from home alot and etc.
I stayed for the same reasons as you, but was eventually laid off for not coming in on Christmas day. Trust me: keep the job for now, but start looking around heavily. There are other jobs out there if you're willing to put in the work to look (aka, don't just hit Monster). I spent five months unemployed and burned through 98% of my savings, but it was worth every second and every penny to be happy at work again and have stabilized my relationships with my family.
Silly gook ... (Score:5, Funny)
Australians, Canadians, British, and Irish, are all de-facto Americans (in that order, decreasingly so,) generally with funny but mild accents.
They eat American food, can be understood on the phone by other Americans, bathe daily (well not sure about the Brits, but
Sun support seems to be harder to understand... (Score:5, Insightful)
I would hang up and try to get someone who speaks english more clearly if I had the time to do so when the raid array on the oracle server is acting up and I have lots of people pissed off.
My opinion of the (very expensive) support sun offers has taken a turn for the worse because of this. I don't mind speaking to an indian or any other person as long as they speak english clearly when I call the english support line.
Suspend H1B program (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Suspend H1B program (Score:5, Interesting)
Fees are paid by the hiring company that supposedly pay for enforcement. However, it's clear that the Dept of Labor (that handles the labor certification process) is woefully underfunded and unskilled, and that imigration lawyers can (legally!) game the system just by writing the applications in a certain way. DoL sees language they recognise, and rubber-stamps the application because they don't have the resources to check it out.
If the legislation was properly enforced, this would be a non-issue. The H1-B laws are actually pretty good.
Why it's illegal (Score:5, Insightful)
It has to be said... (Score:4, Funny)
This May Be Unfortunate for H-1B Opponents (Score:3, Interesting)
It is of most vital importance that it be made clear to Joe-six-pack that heavy users of H-1B visas are going out of business during the economic down-turn faster than their rivals who did not rely so much on H-1B visas -- and that the use of H-1B has not been the solution -- it has rather evolved into the problem.
H-1B visa opponents are not savvy politically and therefore have to meet extraordinarily impressive standards of evidence that H-1B visas are destructive -- the standard of evidence they must reach to show their case is vastly in excess of the standards that are applied to convince executives to displace their US employees with H-1B visa programs. All the H-1B advocate has to say is "The H-1B programmers don't cost as much." Those H-1B advocates never have to answer for the destruction wraught on the companies by the H-1B visa employees then hired. They're protected by political favoritism toward those that promote "diversity", "anti-racism", "global markets", etc. The corporations destroyed by executives who are so shallow as to presume H-1B visas will raise profits need to have no excuses handed to them at the last minute.
American Idiots (Score:3, Interesting)
The company is selling the product for the same price, regardless of where the labor is. The only difference here is how much money the American CEOs et al. can squeeze out of their own people. If they can not squeeze enough to buy that extra fleet of jets, fire the Americans and hire elsewhere.
How does one come to blame the Labor force for this level of greed???
Why dont we fire the CEOs and hire some from China? We'd save a lot more money...
I here that people like working for Honda in Ohio assembly plant a lot more than they like working for the Big3...
Be careful of ripple effects... (Score:5, Informative)
1. Sun loses suit...
US companies have to hire us folks; competitive pressures force innovation to stay competitive or they die/merge/go bankrupt...
2. Sun wins suit/has it dismissed...
As more jobs move overseas, domestic markets dry up (who is working? who can buy?). Watching the US market die is not good for a company...will lead to global unemployment...
I have no qualms with new jobs being created overseas (hey, that's capitalism at it's best), but reducing headcount (and hence customers) in your biggest market is not too swift...
My vote: first option for existing jobs and get innovative. The US didn't get this dominant (economically) simply by copying what others do...we figured out how to do it better and new ways to do it (quick nod to Britain and the EC members for various technologies-like radar and jet engines-that we licensed and enhanced)...
And if a company can't innovate, should they be left to die? Maybe...
But one thing that must happen is that company need to focus more on their long-term survival instead of always pushing to improve short-term profits. This is a major driving force behind this exodus, and it will continue to kill many companies until this unhealthy view stops. Profit is essential for a company, but not at the expense of it's future.
How to change focus, you might ask? More R&D but also have management really monitor it; and have marketing do real market analysis, not sales and sales support.
Look back in the pre-80's business and economics textbooks...they had it right and it still is right...
Well... (Score:3, Interesting)
H1-B isnt such a great deal for the Indians either (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the comments so far are from the point of view of the displaced worker, but the H1-B program has a lot of pit falls for the foreign nationals who come to the USA.
First, H1-B is a temporary visa. People come here, settle down, buy a home, start a family, become part of the community. But unless they take steps to achieve a more permanent status, such as citizenship or having a green card, they can be kicked out of the country at a moments notice. And with the current political climate, I wouldn't recommend overstaying your visa in the USA right now.
Second, H1-B is sponsored by a company. The worker only has the legal right to work for that company. Don't like your working conditions? Don't think you're getting a fair wage? Fine, then leave your home, family, and friends and leave the country. H1-Bs can't quit a job and look for other work. It's hard not to get settled in and used to a place after a couple years, so there are plenty of stories of people who thought of themselves as permanent residents getting shipped off.
Third, part of the requirements for H1-B is workers get paid prevailing wages. One of the ways companies get around that is bringing in people with little experience. "Sure, the H1-B doesn't get paid as much as the citizen engineer. But one has 1 year experience and the other has 10, so you can't make a direct comparison." But what happens as the years go by as the worker with the visa gets more experienced and worth more in the marketplace? As the disparity between the prevailing rate and the H1-B's salary grows, the company as two choices. They can give the guy a raise. Although if they wanted to do that, they could of kept the original citizen worker that got laid off.
The other option is to ship the guy or gal back to India and replace with a fresh new import. I'm not knocking India, but remember, this worker has spent years in the USA. May be married. May have kids who are citizens. But if that worker is H1-B, and the sponsoring company says buh-bye, then worker is taking a little one-way trip.
Abuses of the H1-B program hurt the native workers here in the USA AND the foreign nationals who come here.
Re:H1-B isnt such a great deal for the Indians eit (Score:5, Insightful)
After world war II, there was a big grassroots movement to buy only American made cars and such. I'd like to see it taken one step further and only buy software, hardware, or services from tech companies that replace thousands of american workers with cheap exploitable foreign labor.
Another reason for immigration reform (Score:4, Insightful)
The INS wants to deport Hitesh Tolani [wofford.edu], but gave renewed the 9/11 terrorists visas - AFTER 9/11! The whole system is bad and needs to be reformed from the ground up.
Then we can talk about solving this problem.
No one will probably read this, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
It is perhaps a sign of the times that the same principles do not apply when it comes to immigrant workers.
It is astonishing to me that the same people who want free, open markets when it comes to selling American products abroad (including software), want a protected, closed market for employment in US alone. Why this hypocrisy?
For those who argue that every foreign worker who gets a job is taking away an American's job, can I say the same thing about American exports? Everytime a foreigner (individual or company) buys software from America, many jobs are taken away from that country! After all, if the same software had been written in that country, many of them would have been employed!!!
Let us do this - let us stop all immigration and close the borders completely. All jobs will go only to (native-born) Americans. Hooray! However, we should also stop exporting software to other countries so that they can enjoy the same benefits. How about that?
Seriously though, if you want foreign workers to demand a higher pay, abolish H1B visas and other such bureaucracies. Give a green card to anyone who comes to work in America. This way, without the noose of H1 visa, foreign workers will also demand a higher pay as per free market dictates.
Re:No one will probably read this, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
- We want free open markets, except our agricultural markets
- We want to stop maniacal leaders having the option of using weapons of mass distruction, but we'll keep our nukes, thanks.
- Competition and free enterprise is the one true way, as long as it doesn't threten our jobs or our standard of living even if we can;t be bothered to get off our fat, lazy arses and work harder and/or innovate.
And by the way, you're either with us or against us, so don;t try and point out our hypocracy, otherwise you'll be in the axis of evil before you know it.
Labor Gripes (Score:4, Insightful)
Why? Because you like to get cheap electronics, automobiles (relatively speaking), and food.
Where were you when Kenworth shipped their jobs to Mexico? Where was the outrage from tech workers when automotive assembly jobs were being shipped overseas?
Face it: Your skills have become a global commodity that can move to regions of lower wages just as easily as the employee working the assembly line. The only way you can preserve your jobs for Americans is to purge yourself Free Trade rhetoric and start signing the song of protectionism.
But that would eventually end up costing you more of your annual income. When you get protection for your profession, other industries will be lining up to get theirs. Pretty soon you are paying $8US for a head of lettuce because you have to pay minimum wage to a US citizen rather than $2/hr to an illegal.
And as has been already been pointed out by other posters, these people need to make a living too. The money they send home improves the standard of living in their own country which stabilizes their society and lessens the possibility that the US will have to intervene with foreign aid, or worse, the military.
When you push on one side of the balloon, the other side starts to bulge.
There are no easy answers to globalized labor.
What is dismaying... (Score:5, Informative)
...here is a good deal of the comment content defending the H1B program that simply skirts reality.
H1B for domestic employees (Score:4, Interesting)
What if other option was to shut down? (Score:3, Insightful)
I am not suggesting that Sun is in such a situation, the question is somewhat philosophical.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:5, Interesting)
BTW: Before everyone yaps on about how the US worker had better suck it up and deal with it or they'll relocate to India, let me give you a more realistic scenario - Nothing is stopping the next Sun or Microsoft or Oracle or Intel from sprouting up as a home-grown venture in India, or wherever, given the supposed incredible talent and work ethics. Why haven't they?
Why haven't they? Because the culture is broken. (Score:3, Insightful)
"Nothing is stopping the next Sun or Microsoft or Oracle or Intel from sprouting up as a home-grown venture in India, or wherever, given the supposed incredible talent and work ethics. Why haven't they?"
They haven't because the Indian Hindu culture is, in some ways, one of the most disfunctional in the world. When a U.S. company hires a Hindu worker, it usually gets someone who accepts the caste system, for example. The worker generally has a long history of accepting things the way they are and overlo
Re:Why haven't they? Because the culture is broken (Score:4, Interesting)
The H1-B didn't come about because of lassez-faire, capitalist economics. It came about because of GOVERNMENT REGULATION. The government passed a law which made it possible for companies to hire foreign workers and pay them below market wages. Because H1-B workers can't switch jobs easily, they have no leverage in negotiating salarys. In effect, this is govermnent subsidy that benefits corporations.
I would argue that the solutions is to have the government stop passing regulations and give H1-B workers the freedom to ask for a raise or leave for a better job.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:5, Insightful)
The only problems with that theory are:
H1-Bs are to be paid the prevailing wage. If I'm making $100K, Fred is making $100K, Joe is making $100K, etc... then the H1-B damn well better be paid $100K, not $50K.
H1-Bs are only for jobs that cannot be filled with American labor... the necessary skill set doesn't exist.
No Americans are to be laid off to create the position that the H1-B fills.
Note that these are not "nice to haves". These are part and parcel of the law allowing H1-B visas.
Other than that, you're right.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:5, Insightful)
Read the complaint, he says they contrived a way to sack more expensive OLDER workers and replace them with YOUNGER H1-B's by evaluating the workers as underperformers but not including newer people in the evaluation.
They might be paid the same as the other youngsters, but it wasn't youngsters that were sacked.
"H1-Bs are only for jobs that cannot be filled with American labor... the necessary skill set doesn't exist."
Oh please, you're telling me that *Sun* requires skills that its *OWN* people don't have, and those skills are so rare that *America* doesn't have these people. But India has some magic technolgy that means they do have it?
Get real!
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:5, Informative)
It was originally intended to allow employers to fill jobs when they cannot find legal residents to fill them.
To be able to use this, the employer must certify that they not only are unable to find an employee who is a legal resident. They are also supposed to certify that no terminations would happen to the non-H1b employees because of this hire (ie. termination/layoffs shortly after).
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:3, Insightful)
Plus, to assume that Sun prejudiced themselves based on the info given in the article is very weak. I haven't heard of any ppl getting turned down when they were hiring again. Did nobody apply, or what?
And about Sun not hiring back oild employees, hello! They were chosen as being sub-standard employees! Why would you hire them back?
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:3, Informative)
The visa is typically valid for three years and renewable for only three more years after that. By that time if you haven't managed to complete your green card (permanent resident card) processing you have to leave the country - though I believe nowadays H1B visas can be extended beyond the usual 6 years in increments of one year provided your gree
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:5, Insightful)
"The H-1B visa allows a professional worker from abroad to be employed by a U.S. employer" [usvisanews.com] with a couple caveats. It requires workers be paid prevailing wages, so it shouldn't be used as a tool to get cheap workers. It's a temporary visa--it's not meant to permanently replace citizen employees.
And most importantly, it's meant to fill positions for which qualified legal workers are not available. If the Rolling Stones want to tour the USA, sure, let 'em in. No one here does quite what they do. However if a company is not only laying off workers and replacing them with folks with H1-Bs, but also not paying them the prevailing wages citizens get, that company is breaking both the spirit an the letter of the law.
In the end this case boils down to who has the better lawyer. Sun has already had similar suits dismissed.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at it this way, because we have minimum wage laws in America, and there are none in India, the company can hire out engineers, techs, manual labor, or whatever at a cheaper rate than I can legally compete with. I don't have the option to program for $4 an hour. I agree that it helps impoverished people worldwide, but I don't think American corporations should be allowed to treat foreigners any worse than they treat Americans. I think they should be forced to adhere to minimum wage, provide all benefits given to an american counterpart, including health care insurance, and pension. Global competition should be based on merits and qulity of work, not on the lack of labor laws or taking advantage of the financial chaos in still developing countries. Not only will this greatly increase the impoverished areas were work is outsourced, it will prevent American companies from taking advantage of people in need.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:3, Interesting)
I have no problem if foreign engineers get in line with everyone else to get a green card or citizenship in the US. But it's not fair to US engineers to be singled-out for replacement because the high tech industry has bribed the government for special treatment.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is capitalism at its worst, not its best. In America, we hire Americans. We don't sublet to another country to save money and backstab our own people. At best, this is an atrocious act of business and a slap in the face of ever American. At worst it's an act of slavery and the exploitation of both our countries. I hope Sun gets dragged over hot coals on this one.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do you think that countries have import laws? To prevent people with lower costs of living and lower wages from doing what you are doing. The relative poverty in India puts the U.S. at a disadvantage if the companies can import products from India cheap. It will destroy the competitive market of the same products in the U.S.
Tariffs and trade agreements are designed to prevent this, as are employment regulations. Breaking these only serves to crush local competition si
Re:I would not complain... (Score:3, Insightful)
It may be g
Re:About Time (Score:3, Insightful)
It's about consolidation (Score:5, Insightful)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=52446&thresh ol d=0&commentsort=0&tid=98&mode=thread&pid=5198618#5 201316
Here are some other comments I have posted in the past, the text I am replying to is in italics:
Firstly, what exactly are they supposed to do about it?
That's the whole point, free trade makes it nearly impossible for governments to set a fair wage for it's workers. It effectively reduces worker's rights to zero. It gives all the power to corporations to shop for the cheapest labor, while keeping the barrier to market entry extremely high for businesses in 3rd world countries. So, the end result is that 3rd world countries are not enjoying the profits from this labor, since they aren't the ones that own the businesses.
Secondly, how do you figure that it's $60,000 worth of work?
How does a price for anything get set? It's a balancing act of supply and demand and competitive pressure. When there is no longer a balance, then certain things end up being grossly undervalued, while others are grossly over-valued. So, for example, with a huge amount of labor, and competition, wages are kept low, and are getting lower. However, on the top end, businesses are consolidating and are giving people less and less options. The end result is that the current system is creating an artificial imbalance, and yes, it is by design.
I once met a fellow (suburban Chicago) who had a lawn cutting business and worked with VMS systems. The lawn cutting business during the season was earning him more money than the computer work. He had 8 or 9 trucks going out and cutting for him.
It's important to dig deeper and ask why this is so. After all, computers and technology have far more money flowing in than lawn care, so doesn't it seem absurd to you that he is making more mowing lawns? You act as if it's a good thing. Where is all that money going? Can you answer that?
Basicly what you are saying is exactly my point, even though it might not be obvious. I've been talking over and over about the devaluation of labor. And, you are backing my point up by showing that someone can make more money by owning their own lawn care business than by working in an industry that is awash in money. The reason is that the money in the tech industry is going to the owners? Why is it going to the owners? Not because they deserve, even if in some cases they do, but the reason it is going to the owner is because competition at the top is small, while at the bottom it is huge. Then there are barriers to entry in this market that are making it difficult for people to make the jump from employee to owner. The end result is a system which rewards those with power, while undervaluing labor. The way to get rid of this imbalance is by fostering competition at the highest levels. You do this by heavily subsidizing and promoting businesses that have less that 5% market share(yes, the 5% is somewhat arbitrary, but it's important to keep it small, but not too small). By promoting competition on the supply side, and among the owners of businesses, they will be forced to compete. This will ultimately increase the number of businesses, which will increase demand for labor, lower prices, and help rebalance competition.
This is my whole problem with free trade. It is effectively removing barriers to entry that third world workers have in the labor market, while at the same time keeping the barriers to entry that third world businesses are faced with in place. It is further tilting the balance of competition in favor of business owners. While they may be able to start their own small businesses, I won't even laugh at the absurdity of what you are saying. Who cares if they get crumbs if they are not given an equal chance to compete in the more lucrative businesses? What you are saying is that they will get some crumbs and that they should be