Sun Sued Over H1-B Workers 1382
heli0 writes "The Boston Globe is reporting: 'A lawsuit filed yesterday in California alleges computer giant Sun Microsystems Inc. laid off thousands of American high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.' Could this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?"
Unlikely (Score:5, Interesting)
If, on the other hand, Sun looses this one, then bye bye US jobs and hello nice fat contract for Sun India. Which would be even worse.
Hmmm. (Score:2, Interesting)
Ain't capitalism a bitch?
Reason for H1B Visas (Score:4, Interesting)
That being said, my wife is currently here on an H1B, and I am fairly sure that there are not many people that can do her job and I believe she is working via an H1B on all legal issues.
Re:Unlikely (Score:3, Interesting)
I doubt it. Besides the fact that Sun already has one foot in the grave, Sun does a lot of business with the US government. If something like your scenario plays out, it could kiss future contracts goodbye.
This happens everywhere. (Score:5, Interesting)
Three of them are US Citizens. I am one of them.
We will see job postings go up in our break room, and submit the resume's of people we know who need jobs, but the job listings are basically a reprint of the resume of the H1B that the company has selected. So, they have all this extraneous stuff that you wouldn't use in that job, but they are considered "job requirements" and THAT is how they can tell the INS that "We can't find an equally qualified citizen."
I guess it wouldn't be so bad if we didn't work for clients and have to travel on site, and many of our clients will ONLY want US Citizens. So, that leaves the three of us to do ALL of the travelling, even if there has been a personal tragedy in our life. (And one of us has a newborn child, so she's not travelling either...)
I guess I can look at this a few ways. A) My life is a wreck right now because I can't stay home, but B) I have insane job security, something that is a very good thing to have in today's economy.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:3, Interesting)
I have no problem if foreign engineers get in line with everyone else to get a green card or citizenship in the US. But it's not fair to US engineers to be singled-out for replacement because the high tech industry has bribed the government for special treatment.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:2, Interesting)
This May Be Unfortunate for H-1B Opponents (Score:3, Interesting)
It is of most vital importance that it be made clear to Joe-six-pack that heavy users of H-1B visas are going out of business during the economic down-turn faster than their rivals who did not rely so much on H-1B visas -- and that the use of H-1B has not been the solution -- it has rather evolved into the problem.
H-1B visa opponents are not savvy politically and therefore have to meet extraordinarily impressive standards of evidence that H-1B visas are destructive -- the standard of evidence they must reach to show their case is vastly in excess of the standards that are applied to convince executives to displace their US employees with H-1B visa programs. All the H-1B advocate has to say is "The H-1B programmers don't cost as much." Those H-1B advocates never have to answer for the destruction wraught on the companies by the H-1B visa employees then hired. They're protected by political favoritism toward those that promote "diversity", "anti-racism", "global markets", etc. The corporations destroyed by executives who are so shallow as to presume H-1B visas will raise profits need to have no excuses handed to them at the last minute.
American Idiots (Score:3, Interesting)
The company is selling the product for the same price, regardless of where the labor is. The only difference here is how much money the American CEOs et al. can squeeze out of their own people. If they can not squeeze enough to buy that extra fleet of jets, fire the Americans and hire elsewhere.
How does one come to blame the Labor force for this level of greed???
Why dont we fire the CEOs and hire some from China? We'd save a lot more money...
I here that people like working for Honda in Ohio assembly plant a lot more than they like working for the Big3...
Well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Suspend H1B program (Score:5, Interesting)
Fees are paid by the hiring company that supposedly pay for enforcement. However, it's clear that the Dept of Labor (that handles the labor certification process) is woefully underfunded and unskilled, and that imigration lawyers can (legally!) game the system just by writing the applications in a certain way. DoL sees language they recognise, and rubber-stamps the application because they don't have the resources to check it out.
If the legislation was properly enforced, this would be a non-issue. The H1-B laws are actually pretty good.
Re:No big deal (Score:2, Interesting)
This isn't about one person (it's an abstract individual). While I realize that you're a genius by such a pithy reply that speaks volumes on socioeconomic theory, I think most people would be offended if you were to suggest that the average person is the United States is "smarter" than the average person in another country: that with enough education (and health in some cases) they can't be equally as effective in any occupation.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:2, Interesting)
No kidding. I support the outsourcing of jobs to India, and Indian firms, and I say it's better for the global economy. Then everybody flames me, without even realizing how damned racist they are. You call racism and they say, "I am just pro-American".
I'm not sure what the difference is. If my job gets given to someone who can do it as well, for less money, than I am doing something wrong. It just goes into the wonderful American scape-goat of not holding ones own self accountable for their own situation.
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:1, Interesting)
No, but people have the right to be able to get two cars, a huge house, overaseas vacations. Regardless of where they are from, everybody has the right to work towards that. Every year, an average 3.3 million people are laid off in America. This happened before the
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere. If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
There is a reason why people get chosen to be laid off. You insist on bringing your standard of living down. You are responsible, and accountable. If these people were paid comparatively, you would still get laid off because they would probably still do it better. Your standard of living is a direct result of your capabilities, in the environment you are in. You are not entitled to a high paying job purely because you have experience in that field; if you suck, oh well, the unemployement line is over there.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:5, Interesting)
BTW: Before everyone yaps on about how the US worker had better suck it up and deal with it or they'll relocate to India, let me give you a more realistic scenario - Nothing is stopping the next Sun or Microsoft or Oracle or Intel from sprouting up as a home-grown venture in India, or wherever, given the supposed incredible talent and work ethics. Why haven't they?
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Illegal???? (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not at all the same thing. The equivalent is software shops that outsource their development to a foreign contractor or subsidiary. Even then, the cars are subject to significant transport costs and import tariffs. Neither of these constraints apply to software.
What a cheap attempt to reshape the argument. The core of this issue here is the enforcement and abuse of an existing US law. Most anyone still in technology today could probably share several anecdotal stories of abuse of the visa system. We have every right to expect our government to enforce our laws to protect our citizens. Sadly, political donations often trump the rule of law, and often reshape the law.
If/when the H1-B visa system is corrected to reflect its legal mandate, then a different discussion will ensue, one which will reflect the actual going market rate and answer your pricing question. The result would be either:
Either one of these outcomes is a welcome change from the status quo. It's simply speculation to base market conclusions on the existing environment of fraud.
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:5, Interesting)
True in part, but you can't get that by cutting taxes, somehow the government has to pay for it, so either you have to pay the appropriate taxes for this or you have to look out for yourself. Normally the people screaming about too much regulation are the ones that start screaming for the government when they want something from it. You can't have it both ways.
Why the fuck do I pay taxes? It's for services rendered. One of those services is that my government does not sell me and my community out so that one guy can have twenty-two cars, a huge home abroad and a two week vacation here.
True enough, but I am sure you were all in favour of the latest tax cuts?
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere.
Wrong, that is how companies would like to see themselves portrait but at the end of the day for them (and their shareholders) it is all about profits. Sure they like to say: "Stay out of this government, we can take care of it." But they will only do just enough to look at least halfway good.
If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
There has to be a tradeoff: You can't grow indefinetly and as such you have to give up one of your cars in order for someone else to be able to use the resources. You can easily lower your standard of living (well most people can) without really impacting your QUALITY of living.
You can fuck right off, and take your fucking multinationals with you.
If you would revert back to a time before the "globalization" and produce everything at home your standard of living would diminish even faster. The costs for the companies would be higher, the companies would look for other ways to cut corners and in the end you wouldn't be better off.
There have been studies done that show very clearly that the countries (as a whole) who profited most from Globalization are the first world countries.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:4, Interesting)
I manage offshore developers (Score:3, Interesting)
w.r.t "programming is not like working at mcd's", this is increasingly less true, relatively speaking, given the huge number of unemployed skilled developers. it's supply and demand -- when there are a large number of skilled programmers/QA engineers/etc able to live comfortably on less than 1/2 their western counterparts, economics101 says, that's who will get the jobs. what we're seeing is very similar to what the hardware manufacturing industry saw happen 10 years ago. the companies that survived moved their plants to asia, now it'd be insane to manufacture in the US.
Also note I am not just a manager, I am a developer too, and my job is more at risk now than it used to be, as feasibility/ease of maintaining offshore teams increases. fortunately, analysis/experience say the sweet spot for optimizing software development includes teams on *both* sides of the globe. for now, at least, the core team is here (boston area) and the long-term contractors (mostly for repetitive implementation work, rather than design and critical work) are offshore.
comments?
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Interesting)
I make less than $20k a year & always have in the tech industry, but it's the tech industry on the east coast (& heck it's not even really 'coastly' unless you count lake Erie). I can barely pay for a car, apartment, insurance, & food with a little extra... I have problems getting another job because the companies would like to outsource rather than hire me for a little more than I make now (maybe I could buy a house or pay back those college loans that would make it so I'd have to live in a box to pay them back atm)...
The problem isn't just in the bigger cities of the west coast, it's everywhere. They have a much lower cost of living (especially if actually in... say... India) & often even those coming here stick together, which to be honest we (the ones already in this country) don't so they can live on less...
It has nothign to do with people insisting on having "two cars, a huge home, a boat, a 2 week overseas vacation, etc", it has everythign to do with making a living in a global market we are ill prepared for as a workforce...
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:2, Interesting)
what is rather amusing is that Sun started doing this three years ago -and i do outsourcing work for them - and now they are losing money hand over fist because of bad management and lack of technical skill, management sent the jobs to india and the india techs suck.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:5, Interesting)
We benefit from this as much as suffer from it. Migrant workers, overseas labor towns, etc. It works both ways.
The United States is going to get MORE SELECTIVE about the value it gets from local workers. If cannot cut the mustard (and every employer wants a slightly different flavor), you are going to be replaced.
The US has no high marks for training in technology. Our students are constantly outranked in math and science subjects. Don't like that? The education budget has a little to do with things, and politically, that's out of favor right now. We are getting dumber as a native-born society.
Programmers in particular are simply another service job. There are plenty of non-technical skills required as well. So, you compete on many levels. However, for simply code monkeys, we are at a loss when a company accepts overseas outsourcing.
The country cannot protect itself from globalization and at the same time remain globally competative. I won't delve into this, but suffice it to say there is no reversing the trends of the past 20 years of trade relations.
So what can one do? Well for one, become the most highly skilled most valuable player in the company - don't ever become complacent about a position. And related, I believe one should train in skills that cannot be outsourced. Technical presentations and human interaction-based events are still the methods of businesses. Vote where possible to keep participating global organizations within a legal competative arena. Other than that, I'm open to ideas.
mug
Here's an idea...what does everyone think? (Score:2, Interesting)
It's not the jobs (Score:1, Interesting)
I have a couple roomies, one is upper-caste Indian, doing a PhD. Well, he wrecked my other roomie's car, and in the courtroom had the nerve to say to the judge "You know, I like America, but the American people suck." F@cking bastard nearly got contempt, wish he would have. No I don't get along with him, but I have dozens of other Indian friends who aren't so arrogant.
My point is this. It's fine if you come over to work or get your education. Sure you may take jobs from Americans. That's life. But if you come over here and start bitching and moaning about how bad it is over here and how the american people suck. Then get the hell out of here. Go back to your homeland where it is "better".
Posting AC because I'm a concientious objector. You know, a coward.
Re:No big deal (Score:3, Interesting)
Not if you're shifting to a maintaining phase as the principals exit out of the company, eliminating their equity and dumping out of the slowly dying entity.
Not that anyone would claim this strategy, but some analysis on Ford indicates this may have taken place and may limit their ability to survive. Years of slashed reinvestment, shifting revenues to payouts to shareholders, and the loss of most of the competent decision makers in management have left Ford rotted out and hollow (I come from a Ford family and drive Ford trucks - I'm not happy about the mess the family has created). Combine that with the new PC "green" focus that sounds nice but ignores the market, and Ford's slipping down the slope.
In Sun's case, why not outsource the whole thing and shift it to a maintaining model? What has Sun done that's innovative lately, that has made an impact in the market? Java's troubled - even Sun won't use it for anything critical, and regardless of its merits as a language, it appears it has some significant challenges (as detailed by Sun and discussed on
Expensive hardware and an increasingly less competitive OS?
Wind the sucker down...
*scoove*
Re:No big deal (Score:2, Interesting)
Did I answer your question?
oh no, not again (Score:2, Interesting)
Why does anybody think that stopping immigration of engineers would protect American jobs? I have seen several posts here talk about immigration and outsourcing to other countries as if they are the same thing. They are not.
Immigration keeps the jobs in the US, which ultimately is good for the US engineering industry. Outsourcing overseas sends the jobs elsewhere, which long term is very bad for the US engineering industry.
If the H1-B program was cancelled and not replaced with something else (killing off employment related immigration, since this is the only mechanism there is) what do you think would happen?
Despite all of the screams about record unemployment, EE unemployment really isn't that high. I know, of course, that for any individual there are only two levels of unemployment: there's 0%, which means you have a job, and 100%, which means that you don't. But the current level of EE unemployment is still sufficiently low that most companies struggle to find the right people. Today, both Europe and China outstrip the US in terms of EE graduate and PhD production rates. If US engineering companies were restricted any more in who they could employ in (and bring to, if necessary) the US, their reaction will not be to hire more US engineers. It will be to move whatever centers they need somewhere else. If you really think that "restricting the supply of engineers" (in the words of the IEEE-USA) will make for a stronger US engineering industry and greater levels of employment for US engineers, you are truly deluded.
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Interesting)
I have gone and read the FAQ you linked. A lot of those are partially true. When the tech boom was there, a lot of H1bs regularly changed jobs, especially in the parts of the country where it did not take too long to get the green card. I myself have changed job once. My experience, and I am repeating, is that there are more companies out there who would not touch an application with H1B status with a ten feet pole. I still remember when I graduated (from US university, 1995), majority of the companies coming to the school's job fair had the requirement that you either had to be either a green card holder or a US citizen. Same experience when I changed my first job. Both these were at a time when the tech boom was at its full swing.
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:1, Interesting)
I am from India. And I know what poor is ! so don't give me that shit.
Truth about H1-B ( Now and Then) (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:oh no, not again (Score:2, Interesting)
There is a bit of a premium for managers to actually see "butts in chairs" instead of via phone and email.
Apparently - otherwise all the jobs would have been outsourced to cheaper locations. But what happens when you take away all the options?
Despite all of the screams about record unemployment, EE unemployment really isn't that high.
I don't know about EE, but software development jobs are dead dead dead.
I can only talk with any certainty about my own field - but this doesn't really address the point. What is the percentage unemployment rate?
and unashamed racism
Racism? I hate all H-1B's equally.
That's very nice of you, friend. But you didn't really answer any of my points. Just try this one: if H1-Bs went away, do you think the US engineering industry would get stronger or weaker?
Legal to move abroad but not to employ foreigners (Score:2, Interesting)
Is it legal for them to close down a division or department and move it overseas or just lay off people and contract the work overseas?
But it isn't legal to do something effectively equivalent that means some of the cash stays in the country.
irony I said and Rony said "Hi" back
H1B for domestic employees (Score:4, Interesting)
Worked at Sun - H1-B Rules need to be revisited (Score:1, Interesting)
* i worked at sun thru the 90s
* i worked with one large team with many folks
from india (i really enjoyed working with them)
* i worked with a smaller team with the majority beging from india (another great group of folks)
* i talked with folks from india, and many said they would like to change jobs but cannot because they must stayed employed by the same employer for 6 yrs to obtain a green card. this is where the things are not apples-to-apples. a citizen can change jobs and not have to consider the consequences the H1-B person does. they have to be very careful. what i observed is that there is less movement by H1-B people working at sun. i perceive this as a captive audience, and i percieve management being very aware of this situation
* i dont think sun is breaking any laws from my experiences. the rules that are applied have undergone quite a challenge and require an extensive review and adjustment based on our economic conditions
* sun has enough trouble trying to execute, this is the least of their problems
two sides to this coin... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're putting "I require H1-B sponsorship" on your resume, you might as well print below it:
"I am aware that the visa process poses considerable paperwork and expense, so I'll be grateful for a job, I will work for considerably less than an American can afford to, and I am legally constrained from jumping to another opportunity after you've trained me, unlike those fickle Americans who bail as soon as they decide you're company sucks."
America outlawed indentured servitude with the 13th Amendment. It's time to stop pretending that a worker who can be deported at a moment's notice isn't subject to a coercive employment situation.
Re:What is dismaying... (Score:2, Interesting)
The gall of Americans to feel that our government owes us anything. This is going to be a karma burn, but I feel so heated about it, I'm willing to take the chance.
Its called The Market Economy and Capitalism. The whole US economy is built around the presumption that if you can increase supply by lowering costs then do it. All that matters is the profit at the end of the day, and American Workers are Human Capital.
Capital should under all economic doctrines be replaced by capital that is cheaper and can work more efficiently.
This is exactly what the H1B workers do for the US economy, so as far as the government is concerned (especially our current administration) this is a fantastic thing.
This isn't how I personally feel (guess I'm not so right winged) but its how most business people feel that I have met over the last year or so.
Re: Bad Management (Score:2, Interesting)
Their stock is down under 4.00 and headed for the penny stock market.
They gave away the one good software product they have..Java..and the fact that it's become a better product over time is due to the contributions of developers from other companies...the ones that make profits from it.
McNealy's MS bashing is the same failed management defined strategy used by Jobs at Apple in the 80's and Netscape in the 90's. Apple took a big fall after that and we all know where Netscape is. Bashing the competition as a sole marketing strategy for your new product is a sorry excuse for a marketing campaign. I don't doubt that their new 'web services ide' isn't just as much hype as their previous attempts at software product development done without the assistance of engineers from more competent companies and put up for sale.
The fact that multiple former employees are bringing suit is just a PR burn undoubtedly created by bad management decisions. It just shows a complete lack of loyalty between Sun and it's employees and given the debacles at Eron/Worldcom etc it's that's just plain bad PR for the management of the company.
The strength and quality of a company's products is definitely reflected in it's relationship with its employees and requires maintaining loyalty from a company.
Laying people off isn't just bad PR, it shows an incompetent management team that is incapable of marketing and selling products...and obviously too stupid to keep the people that make the products making them. The fact is the management team is unable to get people to produce good quality products that customers need and desire and get those products marketed and sold and that's why they call upon the God Economy and use it as an excuse for their own failure.
The fact is computer systems are used to increase productivity and income so a bad economy should be a better market for computer systems.
Re:Why haven't they? Because the culture is broken (Score:4, Interesting)
The H1-B didn't come about because of lassez-faire, capitalist economics. It came about because of GOVERNMENT REGULATION. The government passed a law which made it possible for companies to hire foreign workers and pay them below market wages. Because H1-B workers can't switch jobs easily, they have no leverage in negotiating salarys. In effect, this is govermnent subsidy that benefits corporations.
I would argue that the solutions is to have the government stop passing regulations and give H1-B workers the freedom to ask for a raise or leave for a better job.
It's the government, stupid. (Score:2, Interesting)
"Don't like that? The education budget has a little to do with things, and politically, that's out of favor right now."
I think that school spending is at an all-time high nationally. A quick search of Google will show that. Here's one link to look at:
http://www.aft.org/research/reports/interntl
According to this article (ironically, also in favor of increasing funding), we rank pretty damn high on that list of money per student.
The politicians who run the public schools have created new regulations and mandated new programs. These are imposed on local schools. We have more bureaucracy and less innovation. We have more red tape and less creativity. More resources are spent on these matters. The cost of education goes up. The quality of education goes down.
And that has nothing to do with money.
God bless the Federal Department of Education and its' 33 year reign of idiocy.