Sun Sued Over H1-B Workers 1382
heli0 writes "The Boston Globe is reporting: 'A lawsuit filed yesterday in California alleges computer giant Sun Microsystems Inc. laid off thousands of American high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.' Could this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?"
Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Insightful)
Illegal???? (Score:3, Insightful)
I have to wonder if the USian labor force isn't partly to blame by pricing themselves out of the market.
Um... (Score:4, Insightful)
I have no problem with H1B's (Score:5, Insightful)
Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
Umm... (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see how this is wrongful termination because it's done for business reasons, and I don't see how it's racial discrimination, as Sun probably has hundreds of employees of different races working for them.
If the cheap workers were (white) Americans this wouldn't even be news. Sure worker visas are being exploited, but it's not illegal. American workers are pricing themselves out of jobs more than anything else.
No big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't see this as being so evil. I have always been of the opinion that if someone else (or a machine) can do your job better and cheaper, have fun at the unemployment line. If this is the case, then, sorry for the unemployed, but I doubt they would have taken a pay cut. Hell, they're lucky that Sun took so long to figure out that there are a lot of highly trained Indian coders.
Then again, maybe Sun will regret firing such a huge experience base. That may be.
I will say one thing - I don't hear people complaining about when overpaid middle-management types get canned for a new batch of college grads (from this country). I hope we're not indicating that we're bitter about foreigners taking American jobs? Because that would be a bit silly.
Re:I have no problem with H1B's (Score:2, Insightful)
Why should Sun employ foreigners if they were as expensive as the Americans? They have to compete with the Americans and they do it by beeing cheaper. They are willing to do it, since in India they erarned less.
When you required from Sun to treat them the same as Americans, you would take away the chance for foreigners to become Sun's employees.
I cannot see, how this would help them from their desperate situation.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at it this way, because we have minimum wage laws in America, and there are none in India, the company can hire out engineers, techs, manual labor, or whatever at a cheaper rate than I can legally compete with. I don't have the option to program for $4 an hour. I agree that it helps impoverished people worldwide, but I don't think American corporations should be allowed to treat foreigners any worse than they treat Americans. I think they should be forced to adhere to minimum wage, provide all benefits given to an american counterpart, including health care insurance, and pension. Global competition should be based on merits and qulity of work, not on the lack of labor laws or taking advantage of the financial chaos in still developing countries. Not only will this greatly increase the impoverished areas were work is outsourced, it will prevent American companies from taking advantage of people in need.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:3, Insightful)
why not forming a union? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Insightful)
The case is simple they should not be doing this, but if one business can get away with it then others will follow (sometimes not as quick) but maybe you should be looking at other people who are doing it as well, dont hate Sun cause they are playing the game!!!
Re:Um... (Score:3, Insightful)
"Your Rights are On the line"
The way I see it, if you're a legal resident of the US and are just as skilled as the H1-B candidate, you have the right to first hire.
About Time (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Illegal???? (Score:2, Insightful)
To some extent, maybe...but what it comes down to is people need a living wage. But is sounds like to me Sun is taking advantage of a law that was meant to help the tech companies hire foregin labor because there is not enough local labor. When Sun does something like this, it is obviously doing this to save money, which they have a right to do but they also have a social responsibility to obey the spirit of the law and to not take advantage of such programs. In then end, it helps no one as they are stuck having to get new engineers every year or so (when the visa runs out) and they have lost a lot of trust among their current employees. They appear to be taking the short sighted approach to save a couple dollars which often will hurt them in the long run.
Then again, perhaps this is more evidence the tech industry should unionize to prevent things like this.
Maybe American tech workers need to expect to make a bit less, at least in this bad economy as well. But they should also expect to work regular days then as well.
Also, as many people may worry about this trend, I wouldn't worry too much, if you are good at what you do then you will always be in demand. I've seen people actually get higher, better paying positions, because they were talanted American engineers and were promoted above a H1-B worker, because they were American.
Sun support seems to be harder to understand... (Score:5, Insightful)
I would hang up and try to get someone who speaks english more clearly if I had the time to do so when the raid array on the oracle server is acting up and I have lots of people pissed off.
My opinion of the (very expensive) support sun offers has taken a turn for the worse because of this. I don't mind speaking to an indian or any other person as long as they speak english clearly when I call the english support line.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is capitalism at its worst, not its best. In America, we hire Americans. We don't sublet to another country to save money and backstab our own people. At best, this is an atrocious act of business and a slap in the face of ever American. At worst it's an act of slavery and the exploitation of both our countries. I hope Sun gets dragged over hot coals on this one.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:2, Insightful)
So you're point is that American developers dont have families to provide for. Since we can only put one roof over our children's head we are less worthy than if two could be housed elsewhere?
"If you are not a racist and think that Americans are better than Indians"
Thats not racism it's nationalism (or more derisively jingoism). If the contention was that caucasions were being replaced with Indians then that would be racism.
"If you are either a customer or shareholder of Sun then you should also applaud them: they either make more profit or able to sell at lower prices."
Lowered operating costs dont always translate to lower costs, usually it means higher profit margins. Customer benefit is suspect at best.
m2c,
Justin
Re:I would not complain... (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do you think that countries have import laws? To prevent people with lower costs of living and lower wages from doing what you are doing. The relative poverty in India puts the U.S. at a disadvantage if the companies can import products from India cheap. It will destroy the competitive market of the same products in the U.S.
Tariffs and trade agreements are designed to prevent this, as are employment regulations. Breaking these only serves to crush local competition since they cannot reduce their costs signifigantly enough to remain competitive. And if they did, YOUR wages would drop, and you would be put in the same boat as India.
The global villiage does not bring the poorer nations up to our level, it drags the richer nations down to theirs. And it the Greed of the multi-nationals which ensures that this happens.
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Illegal???? (Score:3, Insightful)
yes but if your cheaper help is an immigrant who is here under false pretenses, you just might be going to jail.
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:5, Insightful)
"The H-1B visa allows a professional worker from abroad to be employed by a U.S. employer" [usvisanews.com] with a couple caveats. It requires workers be paid prevailing wages, so it shouldn't be used as a tool to get cheap workers. It's a temporary visa--it's not meant to permanently replace citizen employees.
And most importantly, it's meant to fill positions for which qualified legal workers are not available. If the Rolling Stones want to tour the USA, sure, let 'em in. No one here does quite what they do. However if a company is not only laying off workers and replacing them with folks with H1-Bs, but also not paying them the prevailing wages citizens get, that company is breaking both the spirit an the letter of the law.
In the end this case boils down to who has the better lawyer. Sun has already had similar suits dismissed.
H1B has to change (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason for getting an H1B is that the worker supposedly has skills that cannot be found in America. In reality, most of the time this skill is the ability to work for meager pay. If we follow the spirit of H1B, the worker is valuable to the US economy because of his special skills, not just to one corporation.
It's time to let H1B recipients have the right to change jobs, demand more pay, and be treated like [american] humans. US workers should not fear this unless they lack skills themselves - all it will do is dry up the pool of conscripted foreigners. US corporations should not fear this, unless they intend to treat H1B workers poorly - good corporations should be able to retain American and H1B employees.
Suspend H1B program (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd be alot happier with globalization if I, as a consumer, saw some more of the benefits. As it is, it's mainly the to the advantage of large corporations, not the consumer. Look at things like region coding for examples.
Re:Um... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I would not complain... (Score:3, Insightful)
It may be good for Sun's shareholders and/or customers, but it's illegal.
Re:I would not complain... (Score:2, Insightful)
Do you even realizing what you are saying? The article is talking about SUN specifically targeting Americans for termination and preferring Indians over other nationalities. How does it make me a racist if I don't applaud that?
Re:Illegal???? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes.
Isn't that sort of the way business has been done for a million years now?
Yes.
It's not like the auto industry hasn't been doing this for years by building plants in other countries to take advantage of their cheap labor.
It's exactly the same thing. Except that now it's white collar jobs that are leaving. A better analogy would be like Ford firing all the factory workers and importing Mexicans to have them work in factories here, but paying them half. They can't do that though. It's illegal. They don't have an h1-b program because anyone can be trained to be an auto worker. So they moved the factories elsewhere. Ultimately, that's what will happen to IT. So it's a losing battle. I plan to get out of IT.
Unfortunately, IT workers don't have a labor union or trade organization to defend us. Doctors are numerous all over the world. Why don't they come here and charge half? Because of the AMA. It's extremely difficult to get your medical training in another country, then come here and practise medicine. IT workers require no licensing, have no organization, and can be trained anywhere. Hindsight is 20/20. It was sort of inevitable.
I have to wonder if the USian labor force isn't partly to blame by pricing themselves out of the market.
This is more like shit happens. IT workers don't set the rates. Wouldn't they make it higher now if they could? The rates are set by the market.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:3, Insightful)
Plus, to assume that Sun prejudiced themselves based on the info given in the article is very weak. I haven't heard of any ppl getting turned down when they were hiring again. Did nobody apply, or what?
And about Sun not hiring back oild employees, hello! They were chosen as being sub-standard employees! Why would you hire them back?
Why it's illegal (Score:5, Insightful)
What if other option was to shut down? (Score:3, Insightful)
I am not suggesting that Sun is in such a situation, the question is somewhat philosophical.
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not so simple though. You can berate the U.S. for it's general consumption, etc, but if you're an individual, how can you compete with foreign labor that's earning less than the poverty line in the U.S.? Should you emigrate to another country just to be able to compete with their much lower cost of living.
I realize that competing in a global market has its cost, but the people making the big money only make more from the short term gains.
So my concern isn't so much with foreign workers (I think everyone should be able to play on a level field), but with the erosion of the middle class that's inherent in such a system (and when Country X's engineers start to demand more, then Country Y will have its resources grown and allocated)... if you repeat this long enough, and assume that all resources can be tapped, then you'll have a global lower class with an elite upper class. I think increasing the economic conditions for people in (e.g.) Ethiopia is a very good thing, but I think that the consolidation of wealth for a very few (typically corporations) in an age where we have thing like the DCMA being passed etc is a bad thing. I'm just not sure if this is the best tradeoff.
And I really hate even touching on arguments like these, because it's very easy for other people to throw ethnicity out there, etc, but I'm not concerned about U.S. Citizens (who can be of any ethnicity) but about foreign citizens (possibly also the same). So it's not about race, at least directly.
Hopefully the courts will wake up (Score:2, Insightful)
Now now. I quote from the article to defend my first claim.
citing as evidence statements made this year by Sun's Indian-born cofounder, Vinod Khosla, on the CBS television program ''60 Minutes.'' Khosla was quoted as saying that at Sun, people from India ''are favored over almost anybody else.''
The second is this site www.fuckthatjob.com. Some of those reports are just sad... Companies want everything for as close to nothing - and some want it for free. Work for us for free till you find a job keep your skills sharp.
Of course companies will just move operations totally overseas. They do it to avoid taxes they'll do it to pay a real wage. Of course eventually whatever country they move to will catch up. That or the customers will get tired of asking "Could you repeat that please".
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
When you lose your job that way your opinion is gonna change reaaaal fast...
Different Work Culture (Score:2, Insightful)
Programmers from India, on the average, do tend to be better educated than American programmers. Not that there aren't highly educated and skilled American programmers, but there are more from India, though.
If you were an HR person, or an IT manager, and you had to choose between hiring a less-educated American who charges more and a better educated Indian who charges less, you would have to be a socialist (or a nationalist) not to choose the Indian.
In any case, we should stop whining and meet the competition--whether it is from Russia, Poland, India, etc--by ourselves being more competitive than we are right now.
Talk To Your Congressman (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't mind H-1B's when unemployment numbers are low and there aren't many qualified candidiates available. But right now I have a lot of buddies chomping at the bit for any kind of gigs like SUN has right now.
I would be interested to see how many H-1B's are at M$ and IBM since they both have a big presence in India as well.
Re:H1B has to change (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:1, Insightful)
The fact is you get replaced by cheaper alternatives, yes, its time to wake up and realise there are so many college graduates and skilled IT workers that you are are just a commodity too.
Re:No big deal (Score:3, Insightful)
1. H1B can't earn less than average salary. So while people would complain they can't get $60k/year any more, they still can compete in terms of salary by asking for average (while average, certainly, can slowly spiral downwards, a few high paid positions usually don't let it collapse)
2. When position is transferred to another country, there's no average. So it effectively turns into $10k/year for the company, which makes it think "Hm... now THAT's how we'll make our investors happy!".
3. What happens to spending resulting from that average H1B salary? It vanishes. No car payments, no rent/mortgage, food, electricity, misc bills. All of those businesses will see a slight drop in their business. And again, and again (as jobs get transferred) until it boils down to one manager instead of manager and a bunch of programmers.
4. Who is going to maintain all of this, in case of problems? Given unstable Geopolitical situation, what happens if foreign branch gets temporarily cut off and there's something that has to be done NOW? Dependency is not always a good thing.
Re:Illegal???? (Score:2, Insightful)
The blame game is always fun. Think of a classic resource depletion example. Overfishing. You're in a small village. There are only a certain amount of fish. If you gather enough fish to live comfortably and everyone else does the same, then everyone lives happily ever after. If you overfish, then you reap great short term profits, but everyone starves in the long run.
But even if you got really whacky and assumed that individual people could all prevent this from happening by taking less pay for their work (and one thing you learn very quickly is that people defect much more than you'd expect with no controls) this still isn't a resource depletion, as the companies were making lots of (albeit paper) money. So blame the stock market, the system which encourage short term gain (b/c you can just flip) and people to fudge reports etc.
Doctors and lawyers are safe, because there's such a high barrier to entry (you can't practice law until you pass the bar, and you need med school/residency/etc), but there's little of that in the tech industry. In fact I'd argue that it's easier to start from scratch to be able to convince someone who's not tech savvy that you have skills in software development than it is a trade (carpentry, construction, welding, etc).
And vendor based certifications aren't the answer.
Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:5, Insightful)
People do not have a right to two cars, a huge house, overseas vacations, etc. They do however have a right to a government that looks out for the well-being of their own nation, their own people.
Why the fuck do I pay taxes? It's for services rendered. One of those services is that my government does not sell me and my community out so that one guy can have twenty-two cars, a huge home abroad and a two week vacation here.
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere. If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
You can fuck right off, and take your fucking multinationals with you.
Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
If that's the case, why isn't Americas marketing and executive class full of H1-Bs? If India is competant at generating engineers then I'm sure they're highly skilled at generating MBAs and marketing people, too.
The fact is that H1-B is solely an excuse for corporations to keep engineering pay low. There's just no other logical conclusion you can reach.
I've had this discussion with numerous marketing execs before and in the final analysis they have the idea that engineers are ALWAYS worth less than marketing and must always be paid less, and that much of their motivation for seeking H1Bs has been driven largely by the fact that they can't justify driving marketing salaries any higher in response to market-driven increases in engineering salaries.
The market-driven reality should have been that marketing salaries went lower than engineering salaries, simply due to market demand. But this didn't happen, due to some weird class system that values the marketing/executive class above all others, even when the market will not sustain it!
Nice numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
First, please back up these numbers. As someone BEARING an H1B replied to you, you're not even close.
Second, not that it's even relevant, but if an Indian can live on it IN THIS COUNTRY (remember, Sun's not shipping the work overseas), you can too.
Third, I love this "them vs. us" crap. The racist overtones in this thread are nauseating, especially for a site that is (supposedly) nice and liberal. Seems people tend to get a little more conservative when it's they who are threatened by the foreigners. Or did you also complain when low-end service jobs went to Hispanics?
Re:About Time (Score:3, Insightful)
yes, BIG deal actually (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a great movie out by Micheal Moore called "Roger & Me". It is about Moore's attempt to get an interview with the CEO of General Motors (named Roger). Moore is from Flint Michigan, where General Motors had most of it's factories. Until they were shut down and moved to Mexico. Flint turned into a hell hole. Crime skyrocketed, many people were kicked out of their homes. There just weren't enough jobs to go around when that factory left. The city, in it's stupidity, just built more jails to deal with the problem. I think we are going to see a lot more of this as globalization takes root.
I think the only people benefitting from globalization are the 3rd world countries, and those just entering their industrial/technical revolutions (eg China).
The economy is more than just cheaper imports. Think about the jobs that are gone because of those cheaper imports. And don't give me this "Oh well, have fun in the unemployment line" because this offshore movement thing is moving up the ranks. We are seeing tech jobs go overseas. This isn't manufacturing that any kid with a GED gets a job at.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:5, Insightful)
The only problems with that theory are:
H1-Bs are to be paid the prevailing wage. If I'm making $100K, Fred is making $100K, Joe is making $100K, etc... then the H1-B damn well better be paid $100K, not $50K.
H1-Bs are only for jobs that cannot be filled with American labor... the necessary skill set doesn't exist.
No Americans are to be laid off to create the position that the H1-B fills.
Note that these are not "nice to haves". These are part and parcel of the law allowing H1-B visas.
Other than that, you're right.
Re:Quality of Indian coders (Score:3, Insightful)
There are bad Indian workers out there, of course. But not all of them are that way. Judge by the individual, not by the group.
I did interviews for Sun, when our group was hiring (the same time Guy Santiglia of the pervious lawsuit's fame was fired.. Guy had a tech job, but the soul of a manager; guess why he was let go). I was told to skip over H1Bs. If it's a problem at Sun, it's only in a small area, not company wide.
Free market will increase price of outsourcing (Score:2, Insightful)
There will always be a demand for workers in the U.S. itself; companies always need wokers locally, and will be willing to pay more for them because of the convenience.
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:2, Insightful)
I hate people that have no ambition then bitch about jobs. If you do not go out and earn some money, you do not deserve to have any money.
H1-B isnt such a great deal for the Indians either (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the comments so far are from the point of view of the displaced worker, but the H1-B program has a lot of pit falls for the foreign nationals who come to the USA.
First, H1-B is a temporary visa. People come here, settle down, buy a home, start a family, become part of the community. But unless they take steps to achieve a more permanent status, such as citizenship or having a green card, they can be kicked out of the country at a moments notice. And with the current political climate, I wouldn't recommend overstaying your visa in the USA right now.
Second, H1-B is sponsored by a company. The worker only has the legal right to work for that company. Don't like your working conditions? Don't think you're getting a fair wage? Fine, then leave your home, family, and friends and leave the country. H1-Bs can't quit a job and look for other work. It's hard not to get settled in and used to a place after a couple years, so there are plenty of stories of people who thought of themselves as permanent residents getting shipped off.
Third, part of the requirements for H1-B is workers get paid prevailing wages. One of the ways companies get around that is bringing in people with little experience. "Sure, the H1-B doesn't get paid as much as the citizen engineer. But one has 1 year experience and the other has 10, so you can't make a direct comparison." But what happens as the years go by as the worker with the visa gets more experienced and worth more in the marketplace? As the disparity between the prevailing rate and the H1-B's salary grows, the company as two choices. They can give the guy a raise. Although if they wanted to do that, they could of kept the original citizen worker that got laid off.
The other option is to ship the guy or gal back to India and replace with a fresh new import. I'm not knocking India, but remember, this worker has spent years in the USA. May be married. May have kids who are citizens. But if that worker is H1-B, and the sponsoring company says buh-bye, then worker is taking a little one-way trip.
Abuses of the H1-B program hurt the native workers here in the USA AND the foreign nationals who come here.
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
I think H1-B visa holders should be paid more than others at the same company with the same position - like 25% more, to insure that companies are filling those positions with qualified foreign workers, not low cost foreign workers.
It's time to... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:H1B has to change (Score:1, Insightful)
Right now H1B workers are basically indentured servants to the corporations who hire them. Corporations can make them work in tiny cubicles for 80 hours a week and the workers' choice is basically to suck it up or to quit and risk being sent back. The corporations are not upset with this situation.
Then you say:
It's time to let H1B recipients have the right to change jobs, demand more pay, and be treated like [american] humans.
In all seriousness, what you said in the first paragraph applies to American workers as well. Right now I don't know too many tech people who are out there looking to change jobs, because there aren't any. Demanding more pay? This ain't 1998. If you have a job, you do what they tell you because there isn't much of a job market.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:3, Insightful)
Explain to me please why a programmer should make so much money? Most of the programmers I knew could write the code they were asked to, it wasn't nice code but it got the job done. In other words half assed.
The idea that seems to be in most programmers heads is that they are better then the rest because they write code. Reality is that being a programmer is most of the time nothing more than being a seceretary or if you want to have something more "artistic" a newspaper editor.
The reality is that the "hero" image that programmers like to see themselves in is completly unjustified and so is the idea that you should pull down six figures just because of it.
Sure there are some really really visionary and genius programmers out there but those are far and in between. The average programmer is not and as such you have to live with the realization that most of the coding can easily be done by someone in India with the same quality.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Insightful)
Given that reality, how some people can blame the Republicans just goes to show how blind people can be when they want to be.
Re:No big deal (Score:2, Insightful)
when you are buying that coat, dress or blouse.
Remember somewhere our union's sewing,
our wages going to feed the kids, and run the house.
We work hard, but who's complaining?
Thanks to the I.L.G. we're paying our way!
So always look for the union label,
it says we're able to make it in the U.S.A.!
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:H1-B isnt such a great deal for the Indians eit (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Be careful of ripple effects... (Score:2, Insightful)
90% of the time, this will never happen.
Execs are looking for the golden egg. Make it, get it, get out, live on the beach earning 20%.
Dirk
Re:Nice numbers (Score:4, Insightful)
Explain to me why a doctor should make so much money. It's all about training, training, training. A good deal of the motivation behind going to college for four years or more is that you gain the "skilled" designation, which sets you apart from all the low-wage laborers. School and training are investments, and without proper wages (no one said programmers MUST command six figures, but they certainly deserve more than minimum wage, which is where it will head with increased outsourcing) they become a waste.
Tell me, would you prefer our doctors to be replaced by lowest-bidder Indians? Are you still sure they can perform the job just as well or better than the American doctor who commands a higher wage but has certified credentials?
The bigger question to ask with this globalization mess is: where does it stop? Are you comfortable living in an America that has no more jobs for Americans? There's only so much outsourcing you can do before you've sold out the entire country.
Apples to Oranges: H-1B's are endentured servants (Score:5, Insightful)
Then flood different professions equally! Allow auto mechanics, doctors, etc. to just flood in also, then things will be more even.
Also, the gov should have given people time to switch careers rather than just ruin their life over night. First it should issue formal warnings that it intends to kill IT careers with cheap foriengers so career planners can give better advice. Right now the gov predicts *more* IT jobs in the future because they did not factor cheap foreign labor.
Second, an H-1B is essentally an indentured servant. H-1B's cannot job shop in the US. If they are fired, they have to go back to India. Thus, they work their tail off to keep their job.
Nobody should have to compete with slaves!
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:1, Insightful)
That's life (Score:2, Insightful)
You find another line of work that's more profitable. Once your job is commoditized, you're screwed... and when you consider the ease with which programming jobs can be exported, any attempt to prevent workers moving to America will merely ensure that the jobs go to the workers abroad.
As Andy Grove from Intel put it: "If the world operates as one big market, every employee will compete with every person anywhere in the world who is capable of doing the same job. There are lots of them and many of them are hungry."
That's the world we live in today: deal with it.
All your government owes you troll (Score:3, Insightful)
If one person can't take care of him/herself, then how do you expect a small group of people like the government to be able to take care of a much larger group like whiny IT workers?
If people are not personally responsible for themselves, then the government wont be either. That's just how things are.
If Jobs go overseas, then do something else!!! People are always complaining here that the music industry is like the horse and buggy making industry - are you saying the government should lock down those jobs and makes sure the music industry lasts forever just as it is? Those jobs aren't even going to go overseas, they are just going Poof!! At least with the jobs overseas companies still need a US liaison to oversee what is being done.
As for jobs, you said it yourself - you can always go work in a munitions factory. Or join the army and do something that really protects your family instead of whining how your $80k a year IT job might go overseas.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
businesses that outsource to india are merely taking advantage of the fact that they live in a third world country with a low standard of living. When they inevitably raise their standard of living, jobs will move to the next place. It has nothing to do with the competiveness of the workers there. It has to do with the fact they live in squalor and will do anything for a sum that is less is even possible to feed yourself, let alone a family, here in America.
I don't think it is WRONG to outsource, but I dont' like it. It is much better for my country if the talented peopel from overseas come here and contribute to our culture, technology, and promote american ideals. And I do everything I can to not support the companies that do it.
No, I take that back. It is wrong to outsource. Americans should have some sense of national pride and interest in investing in our county and our ideals. It's not all about saving 50 cents on a plastic toy. And notice how software and widgets NEVER become cheaper to the consumer after manufacturing or coding goes overseas. Ever. american companies that don't support american workers and the america system are useless, greedy, and will gut the country that made them what they are.
And pulling out the racist card is just plain stupid. Not wanting your country's economy and your high tech industry to get sucked overseas in a mad dash profit grab is not racist. Nobody thinks, damned, i'm in the unemployment line due to greedy unchecked capitalists using unfair competition that I have no control over, but at least some other country got the jobs! This would not be realistic, and it's not racially based. People want to eat. that's the bottom line.
I support H1Bs, but i think they should be paid more fairly. I love getting talented people to work with. But no, they shouldn't replace americans just because they are cheaper. if they are younger, more energetic, and smarter, fine. that's teh problem that we have in tech. youth rules this industry. less so in semiconductors where i work, because experience is priceless. software that isn't the case so much.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:3, Insightful)
I know, but even then the concept's off. Most of these H1B's are educated in this country. We're not talking about a bunch of retards that someone taught Pascal to. And if Sun's hiring them, remind me to stay faaaar away from Solaris.
The point is, if all programming work gets outsourced -- gasp! -- going to college to be a programmer will net you less money than a kid working at McDonalds. THAT is what I don't like.
and...
Yeah, and then, when (let's say) the Turkish start moving in and undercutting the Indians and the Nigerians move in and start undercutting the Turkish, we'll have reached the same conclusion -- skilled labor commanding unskilled labor wages (if that).
Both of these assume that more people can write code well than can flip a hamburger. I'll say this - if your code sucks THAT BAD, you don't DESERVE a job programming. The point is that even when an economy goes global, competition exists, and most coding jobs aren't such that you can hire twice as many people for half as much and get more done. Again, if your skills are at that level, you're screwed. If not, you have nothing to worry about, and you will easily outcompete the floods of ill-trained coders - domestic or foreign.
Why do you think this is a GOOD thing?
Because dropping labor costs generally drops prices in a competitive market. Cars would be about $1000 cheaper if we didn't tariff steel (Japanese cars stay higher domestically too because of the weaker competition). And if software companies don't pay their incompetent employees more than they deserve, then I get cheaper software without a drop in quality.
You do realize that this whole argument only applies to the barely competent? Because a good programmer will always be in demand.
Another reason for immigration reform (Score:4, Insightful)
The INS wants to deport Hitesh Tolani [wofford.edu], but gave renewed the 9/11 terrorists visas - AFTER 9/11! The whole system is bad and needs to be reformed from the ground up.
Then we can talk about solving this problem.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Nice numbers (Score:2, Insightful)
So, one would think that the number of H1-B visas being issued would decrease or the program be disbanded as the market conditions change, but quite the opposite is happening. Large companies are lobbying to *increase* the number of Visas issued over the coming years so that they can maintain their cheap labor force.
I don't understand where the 'racism' angle comes in either. I think most workers in the US want domestic companies to act in the best interests of US citizens. If Germans were to take the place of Indians, I believe that these concerns would still exist.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nice numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:5, Insightful)
Read the complaint, he says they contrived a way to sack more expensive OLDER workers and replace them with YOUNGER H1-B's by evaluating the workers as underperformers but not including newer people in the evaluation.
They might be paid the same as the other youngsters, but it wasn't youngsters that were sacked.
"H1-Bs are only for jobs that cannot be filled with American labor... the necessary skill set doesn't exist."
Oh please, you're telling me that *Sun* requires skills that its *OWN* people don't have, and those skills are so rare that *America* doesn't have these people. But India has some magic technolgy that means they do have it?
Get real!
Re:Nice numbers (Score:2, Insightful)
Again, you don't understand what is being said. If programming wages fall to minimum wage levels, then NO ONE, not even The Most Talented Programmer In America will pursue programming since a talented programmer would only command twice minimum wage or so, which is just plain NOT enough money to make it worthwhile. THAT is the point. Everyone loses out when skilled labor goes for unskilled labor prices.
"You do realize that this whole argument only applies to the barely competent? Because a good programmer will always be in demand."
Yeah, and that good programmer will be making so little money that the whole deal won't even be worth it. Hence, little reason to be an American programmer.
"Because dropping labor costs generally drops prices in a competitive market. Cars would be about $1000 cheaper if we didn't tariff steel (Japanese cars stay higher domestically too because of the weaker competition). And if software companies don't pay their incompetent employees more than they deserve, then I get cheaper software without a drop in quality."
Last time I checked, software isn't getting any cheaper. And, contrary to what you may think, these Indians aren't exactly pumping out stellar code. It's about as good as you'd expect from an American firm. There's still bugs, there's still delays. You seem to think this is all about quality -- this is primarily about COST. If it were about quality, it would be easy enough to compete on merit. But when you throw in ridiculously low wages, you can't really compete. Understand?
Re:H1-B isnt such a great deal for the Indians eit (Score:5, Insightful)
After world war II, there was a big grassroots movement to buy only American made cars and such. I'd like to see it taken one step further and only buy software, hardware, or services from tech companies that replace thousands of american workers with cheap exploitable foreign labor.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
You are completely and absolutely correct. The fact is that the west (USA in particular but not exclusively) has been sloughing off unwanted jobs on minorities or immigrants or offshore for years. However nobody complains (much) about Chinese sweat shops or Indian taxi drivers. But an Indian programmer? Well that's a different story.
In fact I think it's one of the most troubling stories I've read in many years because the fact of the matter is it says America can no longer compete on its strongest front: technology. As this [cnn.com] article points out, 88% of companies that move technology jobs offshore find they get better value and a mind boggling 71% feel the foreign work is better quality than if it was done by Americans. This is no longer a matter of Mexicans making our VW bugs for us, it's us not having the skills we need to compete in our strongest industry.
To make matters worse you now have people complaining that "people shouldn't be able to come to this country to take our jobs for half the pay" -- well, they also do them better than we do so obviously the problem isn't merely economy. We essentially have a request for welfare here: I don't do as good a job and I cost a lot more but please legislate to have me stay in work. But really the current cure is worse than the problem. Kick all the H1B holders out of the country? Great idea, train them for free at America's best companies and once they're the best minds in the industry hand them their papers and send them home to bolster foreign business. Rather America should be looking to steal great minds from other countries, not shun them. Personally I think this is an issue of titanic proportions, if America is destroying its technology sector by mandating stupidity and _literally_ telling its best minds to "go back where you came from" then I really think the ship has already sailed on American technological dominance.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:4, Insightful)
These days it's not good enough that you make money. It's not good enough that you make a little more money. You have to make more money and convince the market that you will continue to make "more" money. If you don't, your stock price drops, people sell it off, you can't get the capital necessary to expand and compete... Pretty soon you AREN'T making money any more, and a viable company has been flushed down the tubes.
This is what is wrong with companies now. This is why we are outsourcing everything. No one is happy having a stock that grows slowly. They want instant increase. 10-20% growth in that mutual fund every year or else they dump it.
If you have a 401(k) that owns stock or mutual funds you are part of the reason. If you directly own stock or mutual funds you are part of the reason. Don't hold yourself blameless.
America is at a turning point. We have the largest middle class in the world, but we are having to compete with countries that have manufacturing technology equal to our own (thanks to American companies exporting it) that have NO middle class. It will take YEARS for them to develop one, and until then we are in big trouble. Expect to see either the decline of American middle class, or massive massive trade barriers in the future.
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:5, Insightful)
See, here's where I think you're a bit off. The government's job is not just to protect corporations and their profits. That may seem like what they're doing now, but it's not what they're supposed to be doing. A while back (around the time of the Civil War), one of our presidents put it better than I can hope to do here, "...Government of the people, by the people and for the people..."
So while I fully acknowledge that I have no entitlement to a job and take full responsability for find a job every time I get laid off, it is the government's job to make every effort to keep jobs in this country. It should do this if only to maintain the tax revenue generated by a working public. A skilled worker at Sun making $80k/year will pay about $15k per year in federal taxes and about $5k in state taxes. That same job filled by a skilled Indian worker generates nothing for the government. When you add in unemployment compensation and everything else that goes along with shipping jobs overseas, I think we all have a right to cry foul to our government when we see them making policies that do not discourage companies from laying off American workers.
Basically, were I to be unemployed (I'm not, lest you think by the argument that I'm making that I am), I would have no right to complain to the government about my personal situation. That is my own responsibility. But I have every right to complain about the broader situation that we as a country are facing. Our government should represent us first, not our employers.
it's about corporate greed (Score:5, Insightful)
Does it go to help starving babies in africa? no.
Does it go to help starving babies in china? no.
Does it go to help starving babies in the US? no.
Or even:
Does it go to Sun's R&D dept? no.
The money goes into the wallet of the rich men who did it in the first place.
We have hired the government to "promote the general welfare" is how it is worded in the preamble to the constitution. For this service, we pay taxes. The government is supposed to defend the common man from the powerful and greedy. That includes greedy corporate executives willing to remove the big screen tv from your living room and put it in his own.
If you think losing your job to a foreigner with an H1B is nothing to get upset over - try doing it yourself sometime.
Most people in this thread are missing the point. It's not about racism. It's not about losing our jobs to the "damn foreigners". It's about protecting private citizens from corporate greed. That's one of our government's jobs, and they're sucking at it.
No one will probably read this, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
It is perhaps a sign of the times that the same principles do not apply when it comes to immigrant workers.
It is astonishing to me that the same people who want free, open markets when it comes to selling American products abroad (including software), want a protected, closed market for employment in US alone. Why this hypocrisy?
For those who argue that every foreign worker who gets a job is taking away an American's job, can I say the same thing about American exports? Everytime a foreigner (individual or company) buys software from America, many jobs are taken away from that country! After all, if the same software had been written in that country, many of them would have been employed!!!
Let us do this - let us stop all immigration and close the borders completely. All jobs will go only to (native-born) Americans. Hooray! However, we should also stop exporting software to other countries so that they can enjoy the same benefits. How about that?
Seriously though, if you want foreign workers to demand a higher pay, abolish H1B visas and other such bureaucracies. Give a green card to anyone who comes to work in America. This way, without the noose of H1 visa, foreign workers will also demand a higher pay as per free market dictates.
Clearing up some H1-B Myths... (Score:2, Insightful)
Contrary to popular belief, an H1-B visa does not guarantee a green card. These are two different things... H1-B allows you to work in a special field for up to 3 years (with extentions if you're getting your green card), after which you get sent home. A green card can be aquired either through your company, or through marriage. A green card allows you to be hired and fired like any american worker. It's permanent.
I've looked at both methods for getting his green card. We were lucky his second company sponsored him, and we were able to continue it when he was later laid off because he was in the third stage. Had he been in an earlier stage, he would've been sent back.
Getting your green card is a very tough process. It took us three and a half years to get his green card through his company. If you do it through marriage, it's supposedly shorter - but then they question your marriage, your relationship, pull out your wedding photos and ask him to identify a guy in the back row, etc. I'm glad we didn't have to go that route.
Now the REAL problem for Sun here is, if they bring in a significant number of H1-B visa people to replace their tenured staff, then they're going to get a brain drain when in 3 years, all those people have to return to India. There's a population cap for green card applicants based on your country - it's very hard to get a green card if you come from India. So every 3 years they'll have a massive turn-over when all those immigrants go home for the mandated one year, during which they'll bring in new h1-b visas.... costing them lots of lawyer bills and a general loss of accumulated knowledge.
Not a smart move for Sun. Save a buck today, loose important knowledge and spend money on lawyer fees tomorrow...
Re:yes, BIG deal actually (Score:3, Insightful)
Case in point: Flint Michigan. What happened to all the neighborhoods and businesses when the GM plants were closed? Go rent "Roger & Me" by Micheal Moore for an explanation.
If you work at a restaraunt, and suddenly the plant/company employing most of the local population goes offshore/out of state, who is going to be able to afford to go to your restaraunt?
Labor Gripes (Score:4, Insightful)
Why? Because you like to get cheap electronics, automobiles (relatively speaking), and food.
Where were you when Kenworth shipped their jobs to Mexico? Where was the outrage from tech workers when automotive assembly jobs were being shipped overseas?
Face it: Your skills have become a global commodity that can move to regions of lower wages just as easily as the employee working the assembly line. The only way you can preserve your jobs for Americans is to purge yourself Free Trade rhetoric and start signing the song of protectionism.
But that would eventually end up costing you more of your annual income. When you get protection for your profession, other industries will be lining up to get theirs. Pretty soon you are paying $8US for a head of lettuce because you have to pay minimum wage to a US citizen rather than $2/hr to an illegal.
And as has been already been pointed out by other posters, these people need to make a living too. The money they send home improves the standard of living in their own country which stabilizes their society and lessens the possibility that the US will have to intervene with foreign aid, or worse, the military.
When you push on one side of the balloon, the other side starts to bulge.
There are no easy answers to globalized labor.
Why haven't they? Because the culture is broken. (Score:3, Insightful)
"Nothing is stopping the next Sun or Microsoft or Oracle or Intel from sprouting up as a home-grown venture in India, or wherever, given the supposed incredible talent and work ethics. Why haven't they?"
They haven't because the Indian Hindu culture is, in some ways, one of the most disfunctional in the world. When a U.S. company hires a Hindu worker, it usually gets someone who accepts the caste system, for example. The worker generally has a long history of accepting things the way they are and overlooking even major defects. (I spelled the word "disfunctional" because I don't like the original spelling.)
Remember that most heads of technically oriented companies are not technically knowledgeable enough to know whether a programmer is doing a good job. They hire on the basis of price and a little understanding.
What hasn't become apparent to the companies that hire Indian programmers is that they aren't getting the same quality of work as they would from U.S. citizens. Good programming requires someone who constantly asks whether what he or she is doing makes sense. Good programming requires constant creativity.
There are, of course, many Indian programmers who are excellent in every way. But most are the followers that their culture requires them to be.
The result is that programs are being written that will have to be re-written, and much sooner than they would if they were done by programmers from a culture that prizes independent thinking. The real cost of Indian programmers is higher than U.S. programmers, not lower.
The U.S. has been through something like this before. In the early 70's it became fashionable in the U.S. to hire PhDs. The reasoning was that better educated people would be better employees. But, after about 12 or 15 years, companies realized that people who had PhDs were often robotic crank-turners. Sure, some PhDs were interested in education, but most had just put in their time getting an advanced degree. The policy of hiring PhDs brought about some spectacular failures; they often did not have sufficient knowledge outside a narrow field.
We are seeing a wave of self-destruction in the United States. The U.S. government has killed perhaps 3,000,000 people and bombed 14 countries in the last 35 years. (See What should be the Response to Violence? [hevanet.com].) United States companies are destroying themselves. (Microsoft is, for example, driving people to Linux by annoying its customers: Windows XP Shows the Direction Microsoft is Going. [hevanet.com]) The U.S. is becoming a country in which law is disregarded and disrepected. (See Airplanes are safe, but laws often crash. [futurepower.net])
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Insightful)
H1B is completely unnecessary today.
Oh and to another point, companies *DO* have an obligation to the communities they are part of. For one thing, large companies like Sun are given significant tax advantages to relocate/stay in the US.
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Nice numbers (Score:4, Insightful)
What happens is then the HR droids say, "If you're so desperate that you have to take a pay cut, you mustn't be any good because you couldn't find anyone to hire you without the pay cut."
Pure BS (from where I stand) (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nice numbers (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you've accidentally illustrated the point of your antagonist. If, as you claim, NO ONE pursues programming at minimum wage levels, then the market will have to adjust wages to a point where it becomes possible to hire again. I could go out and offer minimum wage to coders this very instant, what do you think would happen? These are all natural market forces at work, and while stasis is never present, equilibrium will be attained.
Barring artificial forces (legislation, unions, etc) the wages for programmers will deflate to reflect the degree that coding has been commoditised. Yes, it may hurt if you're caught in it, but whining isn't the way to mke it stop. Get a new career, get some new skills to add value to your skill set, or accept it and stay on your chosen career path - those are your choices, pick one.
Re:Why haven't they? Because the culture is broken (Score:1, Insightful)
I really, am opposed to the view that, Americans are under informed about other cultures and countries, but, I got to say, some people are too stupid to appreciate other cultures!
A Hindu.
Re:No one will probably read this, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
- We want free open markets, except our agricultural markets
- We want to stop maniacal leaders having the option of using weapons of mass distruction, but we'll keep our nukes, thanks.
- Competition and free enterprise is the one true way, as long as it doesn't threten our jobs or our standard of living even if we can;t be bothered to get off our fat, lazy arses and work harder and/or innovate.
And by the way, you're either with us or against us, so don;t try and point out our hypocracy, otherwise you'll be in the axis of evil before you know it.
Re:Why haven't they? Because the culture is broken (Score:3, Insightful)
People living under the Hindu caste system have to work around a dysfunctional and sometimes arbitrary set of rules and structures that they are unable to remove without drastic consequences. This greatly resembles the Win32 API(or C++ or Java or whatever), and as such, in order to get around the limitations and stupidity of a language/programming construct, it is beneficial to be practiced at getting around the limitations and stupidity of social constructs.
In short, I see no compelling evidence for your point of view (or mine for that matter.) Its all just idle speculation with no basis in fact. If you can offer me actual evidence supporting your claim, then we can talk, but to me, this is mostly I-Really-Wish-It-Was-True reasoning.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:3, Insightful)
Get real (Score:5, Insightful)
It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with nationality. I dont give a damn what color the person is, I just dont want US jobs being given to people who are not citizens and haven't paid taxed, or contributed to this country in anyway.
That sounds like ill-informed claptrap to me.
I'm an immigrant living in Canada. I'm pretty certain that most people who have never worked in another country, let alone moved their entire lives to a new country, have no idea how hard it is.
Most immigrants in a technical field have moved to a new country either for personal reasons (i.e. my wife is Canadian) or for the opportunity to work on a project not available in their own country.
And you know what? Immigrants pay taxes too. Most immigrants actually have to bring a sizeable amount of cash with them as well to get setup. At a minimum, any new immigrant is going to be buying furniture, a car and putting two months rent down up front. That ignores the cost of actually landing legally in a new country ($1500 for Canada). All that money goes straight into the local economy.
And countries are not islands without contact with the rest of the world. The days of living in a bubble are gone.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re:Buddy, you don't know poor! (Score:1, Insightful)
Too bad you can't take a trip in your libertarian time machine and go work in a sweatshop in 19th century New York! Laissez-faire so totally rules.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Insightful)
No, he's telling you thats the law. Sun isn't following the law. Therefore Sun is in court.
No one has thought this through yet. (Score:3, Insightful)
Allow me to take the point of view of pure self-interest for the moment.
If we want to try to stave off the end of the domestic technology industry in the United States, we need to eliminate H1B's, open our borders, and offer immediate, permanent citizenship to skilled technology workers. No questions asked. Friendly service at the airport. Maybe even throw in some tax incentives. 50% off for the first year! Give us your rich, your skilled, your ambitious. We'll take them all.
Follow along closely.
If a programmer is going to compete with me from India, they are going to be able to charge 10-20% of what I charge and work remotely. This is a simple fact of the currency market and the cost of living. That is what's happening now. In addition, unlike cars or textiles, there is no way to tarrif the product as it crosses a border. Remote work in a foreign country has problems, but none serious enough to offset an 80% discount. Left unchecked, this will simply end the entire technology industry in the 1st world as we know it.
H1B's exacerbate the problem, because they come with a time limit. They are basically a self-help industrial espionage program for every 3rd world country in the world. An H1B says, come to America. Make (let's be honest here) 80-90% of what a citizen makes. Mingle with America's best and brightest, and learn on the job. Then, in four years, take your newfound skills and experience back home, and go back to charging 10-20% of what Americans charge. Welcome to your home country's new middle class.
H1B's have one purpose. To accelerate the destruction of our domestic technology industry. Just natural forces alone weren't quick enough for Microsoft, IBM and Sun. They needed to speed up the process, and H1B's were how they did it.
If we opened our borders now while our quality of life is still high (at least in a few parts of the country), we could use it to brain-drain the 3rd world, to suck the talent out of where it can charge 10% to here, where it will charge 100%. If we did this 10 years ago, we might have staved off the current tech industry disaster - a disaster which at this point I believe is driven almost entirely from overseas outsourcing (understandably everyone is keeping numbers about this process quiet - so we're all speculating on this issue. Nonetheless, I'm very, very confident I'm going to be bourne out on this one as the figures come to light). Even if we did this tomorrow, we might see very gradual improvement in the tech job market here over the next 5-10 years. Long term, though, it's probably already too late to undo the damage.
So make no mistake. H1B's are the most pernicious thing ever contrived against the American technology worker. Ironically, not many have grasped why.
Now all that said, even as someone who is losing their livelihood (I am already headed back to school to change careers), I don't know if it matters. At the end of the day. I respect anyone who improves their lot through learning and hard work - individuals and nations. The economic game being played that makes it easy to exploit labor in the 3rd world is cynical and certainly contrived, but we are all relatively lucky to be allowed to play when you take it in the context of history. I feel a brotherhood with my colleagues in India and elsewhere, and I cannot help myself from being happy at their success. In the end it may all be for the best.
Re:Nice numbers (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Nice numbers (Score:4, Insightful)
"It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.
"Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans."
Bobby Kennedy - June 6,1968
Te strength of our society lies not in our GDP, but in the health of our communities. When American work is outsourced in this way, it weakens our communities here in the states.
The difference between a First World Country and a Third World Country is essentially the existence of a large Middle Class.
We should restrict H1-B Visa's to protect American jobs just like we use trade tarrifs to protect American producers of Lumber, Steel, etc. Those of you who advocate the H1-B would soon make every job pay what the most oppressed person would accept with conditions that reflect that. Hence, we shall become oppressed people.
Wonder what happened to Allentown?? Flint? The same thing that will happen to the tech industry soon. "Solaris 10.2 - assembled in Toluca, Mexico".
By the way, "them vs. us" is not racist, it is nationalist. I have not seen a post saying that Native born brown folks should not get these jobs. I do not complain about low-end jobs going to Hispanics, but I did when they all got shipped to Mexico.
Slashdot is not liberal. Libertarian, perhaps, but not even Democrat in the liberal spectrum. If anything, they would be considered arch-conservative if the Republican party hadn't been busy in the back room re-defining conservative as neo-christian war hawk. Oddly, the conservative viewpoint would traditionally be to let the market decide. The liberal view would be to enact regulation.
The effects of the H1-B are most accutely felt by the American poor. Here, racism plays a part because the Indian H1-B holder is a far more attractive target for "Tech Worker with a background of poverty whom I can exploit" than are our own Blacks, and Hispanics looking to better themselves. Since Blacks do not have an equal field when looking for employment, you have companies composed of White Guys and H1-B workers.
Finally, a point overlooked by most in this thread, the true benefit of H1-B visa holders is that the employment is temporary. No retirement, no annual raises, no vested employees. So, even if these employees are paid comparably, they are still cheaper because of the lack of accrued benefit.
American workers fought and died for the work standards we now enjoy. Sacco and Vanzetti fought so we could not be forced to work 80 hours a week, that we could have safe working conditions. Immigrant and H1-B labor have been the two major factors rolling back the progress that our - OUR - forefathers extracted from the corporations with blood and determination.
~Hammy
It's about consolidation (Score:5, Insightful)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=52446&thresh ol d=0&commentsort=0&tid=98&mode=thread&pid=5198618#5 201316
Here are some other comments I have posted in the past, the text I am replying to is in italics:
Firstly, what exactly are they supposed to do about it?
That's the whole point, free trade makes it nearly impossible for governments to set a fair wage for it's workers. It effectively reduces worker's rights to zero. It gives all the power to corporations to shop for the cheapest labor, while keeping the barrier to market entry extremely high for businesses in 3rd world countries. So, the end result is that 3rd world countries are not enjoying the profits from this labor, since they aren't the ones that own the businesses.
Secondly, how do you figure that it's $60,000 worth of work?
How does a price for anything get set? It's a balancing act of supply and demand and competitive pressure. When there is no longer a balance, then certain things end up being grossly undervalued, while others are grossly over-valued. So, for example, with a huge amount of labor, and competition, wages are kept low, and are getting lower. However, on the top end, businesses are consolidating and are giving people less and less options. The end result is that the current system is creating an artificial imbalance, and yes, it is by design.
I once met a fellow (suburban Chicago) who had a lawn cutting business and worked with VMS systems. The lawn cutting business during the season was earning him more money than the computer work. He had 8 or 9 trucks going out and cutting for him.
It's important to dig deeper and ask why this is so. After all, computers and technology have far more money flowing in than lawn care, so doesn't it seem absurd to you that he is making more mowing lawns? You act as if it's a good thing. Where is all that money going? Can you answer that?
Basicly what you are saying is exactly my point, even though it might not be obvious. I've been talking over and over about the devaluation of labor. And, you are backing my point up by showing that someone can make more money by owning their own lawn care business than by working in an industry that is awash in money. The reason is that the money in the tech industry is going to the owners? Why is it going to the owners? Not because they deserve, even if in some cases they do, but the reason it is going to the owner is because competition at the top is small, while at the bottom it is huge. Then there are barriers to entry in this market that are making it difficult for people to make the jump from employee to owner. The end result is a system which rewards those with power, while undervaluing labor. The way to get rid of this imbalance is by fostering competition at the highest levels. You do this by heavily subsidizing and promoting businesses that have less that 5% market share(yes, the 5% is somewhat arbitrary, but it's important to keep it small, but not too small). By promoting competition on the supply side, and among the owners of businesses, they will be forced to compete. This will ultimately increase the number of businesses, which will increase demand for labor, lower prices, and help rebalance competition.
This is my whole problem with free trade. It is effectively removing barriers to entry that third world workers have in the labor market, while at the same time keeping the barriers to entry that third world businesses are faced with in place. It is further tilting the balance of competition in favor of business owners. While they may be able to start their own small businesses, I won't even laugh at the absurdity of what you are saying. Who cares if they get crumbs if they are not given an equal chance to compete in the more lucrative businesses? What you are saying is that they will get some crumbs and that they should be
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:3, Insightful)
Companies do not exist as an entities that serves only themself. For the most part, they are corporations.
What are corporations? Legal fictions designed to shield shareholders from personal liability. Most people stop the definition at that point. But they are wrong.
Corporations are LICENSED TO EXIST by the representatives of the people of the United States. They do not have a "right" to exist. They have no "rights" to anything -- they are not people, no matter what Supreme Court idiots have ruled.
It is good and proper that businesses exist to enable a free market of goods and services. But they exist to serve the needs of the people of the United States of America. Period.
Is is a two-way deal. For exemption from personal liability, the fictitious individuals known as corporations are subject to the laws of the USA. They should in general serve the public good of the people of the United States.
This point is crucial. We have been sold the lie that businesses exist only to make a profit, and at that point owe no one anything.
But they seem to think that the US owes them free roads, free forests, free education for their workers, free pensions for their retiress, free medical care for those they fire, evironmental exemptions, free access to the power of the three branches of government.
Businesses exist for the people's benefit, and the people of the US in turn pay for the infrastructure in which business operate.
Business owes goods and services in this bargain. THEY ALSO OWE THE COMMUNITY JOBS IN EXCHANGE FOR ALL THE FREE GOODIES THEY GET. AND FOR THE LICENSE TO EXIST AT ALL.
Here's where the radical right wing screaming starts. They no longer believe they owe jobs, or taxes, or even competition for their goods and services. They owe nothing to anyone. Period.
That is no longer a beneficial arrangement. It is a parasitical one. The wealthiest draining jobs and taxes away from the people who have financed their infrastructure, and granted license for them to exist at all.
Business is NOT AN ALTERNATIVE TO GOVERNMENT. It is not independent of it. It is subject to the will of the people who let them exist at all. And those people believe that they should, at the very least, be employed by the companies which are located in their own country.
The eventual outcome of the present process will be twofold: jobs continually pumped to overpopulated countries around the world, where sheer numbers depress wages to pennies on the dollar paid in the US. Massive economic depression across the US. Wages decreasing. Schools starved for money. Price deflation.
At the same time, ever-growing profits pumped to a small number of executives, and indirectly to the service industries which sell to the very wealthy. At this end, price inflation.
The only safe harbor in the businesses-do-what-they-we-owe-you-shit is to be an executive. Everyone else eventually becomes a peon.
There is no break on the cycle once it starts. The reason why European countries are nightmares of strikes and taxes is that they have cut a deal between what they are, with jobs and wages relatively stable, with the crashing cycle that we have embraced.
Communism. Ah, the old boogieman. It never gets old.
Here: the idea of free markets determining wages and prices works -- if there is no hypergrowing population of people who will work for pennies on our dollars. Massive growth in the number of workers will drag wages down for everyone, everywhere. Wages can't rise. Not without a catastrophic adjustment in human numbers.
Business executives know all this, and they are playing to become robber barons of the 21st and 22nd centuries. They don't give a damn what happens to people lower down than their elevated positions. They are social Darwinists. Economic collapse makes them stronger and wealthier, and more powerful.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree with your lassez-faire logic, but I believe that you have reached a faulty conclusion. It was government intervention that caused the H1-B "problem" in the first place. What US workers are asking for is not "protection" for themselves, but for the removal of what is, in effect, a government subsidy to big business.
The H1-B visa program actually disrupts the normal rules of supply and demand. Because it makes it difficult for H1-B workers to switch jobs, they have no leverage with which to negotiate their salary and benefits. Because of this, they are forced to accept below market pay. One "free market" solution would be to allow visa holders the freedom to move from job to job. Companies in return will be forced to pay H1-B workers the market wage, thus eliminating the "subsidy" that companies are given by the government's enactment of this program.
On a related note, I do not think that offshore development is going to take off the way that everyone thinks that it is. As demand for Indian programmers increases, they will demand high wages, thus eliminating the cost savings. Already you hear complaints from Indian shops that they now have to compete with lower cost countries like Vietnam and China. Eventually, costs in these places will be bid up as demand grows. Also, a lot of tech workers in these third world countries are going to want to move to the US and other high standard-of-living countries, depleting the third-world of its tech workers. In a sense, the H1-B visa program actually works AGAINST offshore development, since it depletes the employment pool in these third world countries.
Re:No big deal (Score:1, Insightful)
Salaries are private at our company, but I would guess that I get 20% more than the natives doing a similar job (I am the tech lead).
I have several friends who are H1-B's they are all earning a good salary. In my experience H1-B's get very respectable salaries in comparison to averages.
Another salient point. The company I work for was losing money when I started with them a couple of years ago. This year they're going to have profits in the 10's of millions; and many of our products are exported; several of them to my country of origin. The US is most definately *not* the net loser with the H1-B program.
Re:No big deal (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why haven't they? Because the culture is broken (Score:2, Insightful)
I am an Indian (and nominally a Hindu by birth). There is no such thing as a standard "disfunctional Indian Hindu culture" among Indians. It is similar to making the claim that Americans have a "loud, fat, Christian warmongering" culture.
Indians, just like people of all other countries, come with a wide variety of mindsets.
If Indians were merely sheep who followed management/leadership directives blindly, they would lack the initiative to run an advanced space program, independently develop nuclear technology or even remain a democracy for more than 50 years.
The real reason why we're not seeing the next Microsoft or Intel start in India is that most Indians with the talent and initiative choose to start or join Silicon Valley firms, since India lacks a lot of the infrastructure necessary for these kinds of firms to be based in that country.
Give India another 10 years to get its act together in terms of infrastructure and education, and I guarantee you'll see corporations comparable to Intel or Sony start up in India.
Krishna
Some consulting companies pay a fair wage (Score:3, Insightful)
My last US-based job was with Ajilon Consulting [ajilonconsulting.com], which finished not quite three months ago. During my years with them, I spent about two years as a staff manager, so I knew what my staff were being billed at and what they were getting paid.
Maybe other companies are run by thieves, but Ajilon's salaries were pretty equitable. If anything, some of the foreign H1-B's were paid better than some of their counterparts, usually because they had specialized skills in a toolkit or product used by the clients. Granted many naive people might think the margins Ajilon took off the top were high, but I've got my own corp in Canada so I'm painfully aware of just how much of that margin gets consumed by overhead, and I've worked for companies in the past that took twice the margin Ajilon did.
The horror stories I heard and saw from some of the client sites in the area were another story entirely. Some of the people getting the axe at client sites were among the best I'd worked with, but their jobs were being shipped overseas or "consolidated" at cheaper locations (Texas, Ohio, Florida, etc.)
We (Ajilon employees) were lucky enough to have a CEO and board that understood the value of retaining marketable skills. Some client sites seemed to be trying to maximize the current profit curve to line their top management's pockets and appease shareholders, even if it meant cutting loose the very people who made the business possible.
As I was working on an H1-B myself (Canadian), I was equally impressed that they were open-minded and supportive enough to put non-residents into lower-mid management slots. I never heard of them refusing to sponsor any of their H1-B's for a Green Card. The goal was to expand the in-house talent pool, not to pay the fewest pennies per line of code possible.
Of course when all the client sites are busy shifting work out of country, there still end up being dry contract periods.