Sun Sued Over H1-B Workers 1382
heli0 writes "The Boston Globe is reporting: 'A lawsuit filed yesterday in California alleges computer giant Sun Microsystems Inc. laid off thousands of American high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.' Could this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?"
For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:2, Informative)
rus
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:5, Informative)
It was originally intended to allow employers to fill jobs when they cannot find legal residents to fill them.
To be able to use this, the employer must certify that they not only are unable to find an employee who is a legal resident. They are also supposed to certify that no terminations would happen to the non-H1b employees because of this hire (ie. termination/layoffs shortly after).
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:3, Informative)
The visa is typically valid for three years and renewable for only three more years after that. By that time if you haven't managed to complete your green card (permanent resident card) processing you have to leave the country - though I believe nowadays H1B visas can be extended beyond the usual 6 years in increments of one year provided your green card processing is in an advanced stage. I've been working on an H1B myself for the last 4 years.
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:1, Informative)
L1 Visa program ,too ... (Score:1, Informative)
Businessweek says employers have lots of loopholes, not just H1-B
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Informative)
I myself being a H1B worker can attest to that fact is that I get pretty good amount of money - well above the average salary (even compared to time when the market was hot) for the given position. This despite the fact my bargaining power was considerably less because 1) I was in a hurry to switch my last job for personal reasons 2) most companies did not (and still don't) want to hire H1Bs (more than 60%). 2) has been true from the time I was looking for jobs after graduation from a US university (1995).
Re:This happens everywhere. (Score:4, Informative)
Besides it being a tough environment to work in (almost all communication was in Chinese, most of the engineers spoke little to no english and my Manderin sucks except for curses), it also meant that I ended up doing all the traveling even though it wasn't in my job description. It made me miserable -- I'm just not the sort of person who enjoys flying to client sites on 24 hour notice, working in someone else's machine room, being away from home alot and etc.
I stayed for the same reasons as you, but was eventually laid off for not coming in on Christmas day. Trust me: keep the job for now, but start looking around heavily. There are other jobs out there if you're willing to put in the work to look (aka, don't just hit Monster). I spent five months unemployed and burned through 98% of my savings, but it was worth every second and every penny to be happy at work again and have stabilized my relationships with my family.
Re:No big deal (Score:3, Informative)
You could go even further with your comment about globalization keeping costs down, however. Look at the pressure to increase quality - the average car built today is light-years ahead of those from just a decade or two ago. Instead of hoping that a car lasts 100,000 miles, these days they can last 250-300K if properly maintained.
Bottom line - the consumer sees a great deal of the gains from globalization. They just don't think about it...
There is in America (Score:2, Informative)
Your argument holds if the company is based in some other country, and is told by its government to hire only American workers. Obviously there is no justice there.
I'll say again, the United States government has a right, perhaps even a mandate, to protect American jobs for Americans. After all, if our government is not out to protect the interests of its people, what good is it? The United States government was _founded_ on the very idea that the reason for its existence is to serve the interests of its people. Clearly allowing jobs generated by American companies, on American soil to be given to foreigners when qualified American workers are available would not be protecting the interests of the American people.
I also disagree with your assessment "...the quality of american programmers going down...". Though a number of unqualified American programmers exist after the
Overall, I'd say your post is tainted by your own bias. Consider if the same situation were occurring in your own country. Would you want your government to allow jobs in your country to be filled by low paid foreigners, or would you rather your government protected your interests?
Re:I have no problem with H1B's (Score:3, Informative)
1) H1B's can work for a very low wage
A) FALSE: The dept of labor has a prescribed minimum wage for H1B's.
Anecdote: A company that I know had a paycut, but did not cut some of the H1'B salaries because they would then fall under the dept of labor's limit.
2) H1B's are equivalent to slavery
A) FALSE: They come on their own wish. They can leave to their country whenever they want to (often much richer, 'cuz the spare money saved here equates a large amount in, say, India).
For instance, one could live in many parts of India for over a year comfortably with 5 to 10k dollars. So, if someone saved up 100k in a six year job stunt in US, he/she is set for life in a poor country.
3) H1B's are coming from exploitative conditions
A) FALSE: Many are highly educated in their countries, often coming from families placed higher in the social/economical hierarchy. The really poor ones in India, for example, are *really* *really* poor.
4) H1B's fear being sent back to inhumane conditions
A) FALSE: Many companies in India, for example, are looking for US trained/US experienced employees for handling outsourced projects. The competition may be tough though
Be careful of ripple effects... (Score:5, Informative)
1. Sun loses suit...
US companies have to hire us folks; competitive pressures force innovation to stay competitive or they die/merge/go bankrupt...
2. Sun wins suit/has it dismissed...
As more jobs move overseas, domestic markets dry up (who is working? who can buy?). Watching the US market die is not good for a company...will lead to global unemployment...
I have no qualms with new jobs being created overseas (hey, that's capitalism at it's best), but reducing headcount (and hence customers) in your biggest market is not too swift...
My vote: first option for existing jobs and get innovative. The US didn't get this dominant (economically) simply by copying what others do...we figured out how to do it better and new ways to do it (quick nod to Britain and the EC members for various technologies-like radar and jet engines-that we licensed and enhanced)...
And if a company can't innovate, should they be left to die? Maybe...
But one thing that must happen is that company need to focus more on their long-term survival instead of always pushing to improve short-term profits. This is a major driving force behind this exodus, and it will continue to kill many companies until this unhealthy view stops. Profit is essential for a company, but not at the expense of it's future.
How to change focus, you might ask? More R&D but also have management really monitor it; and have marketing do real market analysis, not sales and sales support.
Look back in the pre-80's business and economics textbooks...they had it right and it still is right...
Re:For us non-US'ians what is H1-B? (Score:2, Informative)
It is not the only time I have come across that sort of people. It is hard to get the right people for the right job.
Not just H1B ... (Score:2, Informative)
I worked at Sun a few years back ... and one of the factors
that led to me quitting was when my (Indian) Director kept
promoting Indian co-workers over more-deserving non-Indians.
(Another was being fed up with
an organization that was so focussed on empire building
rather than delivering what customers kept asking for.
But that, and other such reasons, would be offtopic.)
It was clear bias ... these were people
that didn't have a track record of producing results.
They did have a clear record of obstructing other
workers who did produce the results
consistently, on-time, under-budget, and high
quality (low bug-count etc); results that successfully
got the company into some rather big markets.
These were significant promotions (E-12 for
those of you who know what that means), given
to folk with track records of not being innovative,
delivering late, and having big overruns and
buggy results. (Quick quiz: Which approach
is better for the bottom line? Which is better
for empire building?) The managers
in the groups hushed some of the promotions
up for months,
since they were so obviously unfair to other people
who were clearly more deserving.
(But who didn't happen to be Indian, like that Director.)
And yes, I know exactly how the "Indian Contractors" end up being so popular. Part of it is that they can be hired/fired on short notice; another is that they're relatively cheap. And then, big surprise, they have a leg up on becoming full-time ... as opposed to someone
who didn't need a visa, but wasn't already
"part of the team". Then lo and behold, when it
comes time to cut costs, do you think the lower-paid
workers are at the top of the layoff list? Even if the law
about their visa status says they should be???
To be clear: I've had plenty of Indian co-workers I'd work with again. Some of them were a pleasure to work with. But never would I work with that director who had such blatant biases in promotion policy; and never with the people that got such undeserved promotions.
With the Human Resources department backing such actions in at least one part of the company, I can't possibly believe that one of these lawsuits shouldn't eventually succeed.
Re:why not forming a union? (Score:2, Informative)
A:
www.sage.org -- Systems Administrators Guild
www.programmersguild.org -- Programmers Guild
www.ipgnet.org -- International Programmers Guild
Now the question becomes, are these guilds really unions in the full sense of the word, are there tasks that must be done to make it a legal guild..
The harder problem is getting companies to hire union workers if its a non-union shop.
Re:No big deal (Score:3, Informative)
Joe
Here is how it works. (Score:3, Informative)
1. Employer is requred by law to advertise the position, a job already filled by an H1-B holder. These ads are easy to identify, they are very, very specific, and are low-cost small-type ads. They specify US citizenship required.
2. Clueless folks that can't smell these ads send in resumes.
3. Employer is required to document why each and every respondent doesn't qualify.
3a. Some resumes are so far off that an HR drone can check a box and file the resume in a drawer.
3b. Hiring manager (ie, the schmuck knowns as "yours truly") gets to phone interview all the rest. Are you a US citizen? No? Buh-bye. Then a list of very specific questions, all referencing the ad. No recent experience with very specific CAD tool? Buh-bye. Schmuck checks appropriate box, ships stack of paper back to HR.
4. Immigration lawyer completes paperwork.
At my employer, salaries for H1-B were the same as anyone else. Nothing except "what have you done lately?" mattered at salary time. We had a lot of H1-B's, and a lot of open reqs, so no jobs were going to H1-B's that would not have gone to citizens. But of course, times were different then....ie: hot. I'd hate to see the stack of resumes an H1-B ad would pull today.
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Informative)
Both of these statements are false. See this FAQ [ucdavis.edu] from Norm Mattloff (UC Davis professor and leading H1-B antagonist).
Re:Nice numbers (Score:3, Informative)
The racist overtones in this thread are nauseating, especially for a site that is (supposedly) nice and liberal.
Haha! Whatever gave you the impression that /. is liberal? I'd say it has a libertarian tone, given the views of most cyber-addicts. Most of us are intelligent, peaceful, and wary of our rights being taken away.
Liberal, in the American sense of the word, is all for increased Government spending, and decreased social regulation. Libertarian is all about decreased Government spending, and decreased social regulation.
Now, if you are talking about Classical Liberalism, which you probably are not, then you would be saying "Every man for himself, and you don't have a right to hinder his rights." This does, in effect, allow racism among other noxious diseases.
Do go calling this place liberal, expecting to get away with it.
What is dismaying... (Score:5, Informative)
...here is a good deal of the comment content defending the H1B program that simply skirts reality.
Re:Apples to Oranges: H-1B's are endentured servan (Score:2, Informative)
now. Both times I've changed jobs I've had
multiple job offers.
According to salary surveys I make well over the
average salary for comparable positions.
Who is the slave here? Me or you?
Next time you feel compelled to post something
on this subject, would you please do me a favor
and use some original thoughts and don't quote
what you read on some closet-racist's pseudo
study.
Proletariat of the world, unite to kill ignorance
Quoted out of context (Score:3, Informative)
In the article, the author stated that Sun's cofounder, Vinod Khosla, said on 60 Minutes "that at Sun, people from India 'are favored over almost anybody else'." This quote has been taken out of context. The 60 Minutes piece in question was a report on a very prestigious technical college in India, the Indian equivalent of MIT. When Mr. Khosla said certain people were favored, he was referring specifically to graduates of that university, not to Indian people in general. If you read the transcript you will see this. His statement was no different than saying Harvard Law School graduates are favored at law firms.
It's a small but important point.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:2, Informative)
What you described in your post is illegal. That off course is not the norm. I am an H1B holder who gets pretty good salary (more than the average market rate). A good portion of the H1Bs are graduates of US universities (yes you heard it right - I came as a foreign student, graduated, changed my status to H1B). These H1Bs have comparable educational qualifications as their US counterpart and are not getting cheated by some fly by night contracting company.
Re:No big deal (Score:2, Informative)
The bargaining power is less for H1B holders for two reasons:
1) Majority of the companies will not hire H1Bs. That has been my experience when I graduated, when I changed my job. Right now, I would change my industry if I could (it is not doing too well). When I look at the job boards, again, I see whatever jobs out there, they are explicitly saying that they are not going to sponsor H1Bs.
2) If you are in the green card process, you cannot change jobs as readily as the application is tied to your current employer. It used to be lot worse where if you changed your job anytime during the process, you had to start from the scratch wasting a lot of time. Currently, if you are passed a certain stage, you can change job, as long as they similar, and continue with your green card process.
Re:Sux it down Sun... (Score:1, Informative)
Sun isn't the Only One (Score:1, Informative)
I currently work for a Fortune 10 company who has agressively RIF'd it's native and naturalized workforce in favor of H1-B visa holders. Most of our workforce doesn't come from India, though. They are from Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, etc. They get into fights with the Hindu Indians who do work here. I've been in meeting that where one of the Muslim attendants said "I don't like that idea. He brought it up and he's not a Muslim". We were told that we would have to work Christmas Day, because "it's not a Muslim holiday, so we don't recognize it therefore you will need to report to work."
We've had multiple RIF's in past 3 years that I've been here. All the people that have been RIF'd have been replaced with some type of contractor who is almost always an H1-B. We had a senior Vice President annouce that he was refusing to interview anyone who isn't Muslim any more.
It's not party for the H1-B's either. Ours get told that they will work 90 hours and bill 40 every week. Many have "other" responsibilites that are a condition of them maintaining their employment - things like picking up the boss' dry cleaning or babysitting his kids. They are told that if they don't do these things that they will be fired and sent home.
Based on my experience here with the H1-B visa program, I would say that it's been a failure. The workers here are abused by being undercut by cheap foreign labor working for companies that still charge "Made in the USA" prices. The workers from overseas are abused by the system. It should be ended.
Over & Out,
Queen B