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Australian Federal Police Raid Major ISPs 357

Posted by timothy from the overzealous-or-regular-zealous dept.
pflodo writes "The Australian (newspaper) has an article about Telstra the major Australian ISP and other 'declined to name' ISPs that have been raided by Australian Federal Police to 'seek the identity of particular subscribers' in relation to their activity and files stored on the ISP's servers. I imagine they will eventually raid some domestic homes and make a scapegoat of some unfortunate teenagers."
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Australian Federal Police Raid Major ISPs More

Australian Federal Police Raid Major ISPs

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  • "Valuable" Music (Score:5, Funny)

    by kevinatilusa ( 620125 ) <kcostell@nosPaM.gmail.com> on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:35AM (#5447312)
    "According to sources, the wholesale value of the allegedly pirated music may be as high as $60 million"

    Then again, the music could be mostly Backstreet Boys, Brittney Spears, and N'Sync, in which case the value of the music is closer to $60.

    • Re:"Valuable" Music (Score:5, Funny)

      by gid13 ( 620803 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:34AM (#5447489)
      as in "i'd pay $60 for someone to murder these singers because i'd rather bathe in acid and razor blades than hear them sing another note"?

    • Re:"Valuable" Music (Score:5, Funny)

      by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @06:52AM (#5447973) Homepage Journal
      I love it when they estimate the value of something like this. I remember from my college days when there would be a big pot bust, and the cops would say "x pounds of pot were seized, with a street value of $y," and after a quick calculation, we'd see that the cops are obviously overpaying...

      • Re:"Valuable" Music (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ratamacue ( 593855 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @08:25AM (#5448162)
        What's really ironic about drug raids is that the "street value" they quote is a function of prohibition, not market economics. Government sets the price of illegal drugs, not drug dealers! The higher the level of prohibition, the higher the price of black market items. The more tax money they throw at the "problem", the more money the drug dealers can make. And the more money the drug dealers make, the better their chances of avoiding the law. It's a win-win situation for government, which profits not only in revenue but power over the people, and it's a win-win situation for drug dealers who are clever enough to avoid the law. The only losers here are the tax payers, who pay not only in tax dollars but liberty (including but not limited to ownership of your own body) and security (which decreases proportional to the violent crime stimulated by the black market).

        Am I concluding that prohibition is designed specifically to benefit government at the expense of the people? You bet I am.

  • Can somebody explain Australian law for me? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Rev.LoveJoy ( 136856 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:36AM (#5447315) Homepage Journal
    I admit my ignorance here, but why would the police actually "raid" the ISPs in question rather than just subpeona the information they require through the court system?

    From the tone of this article it strikes me that the police suspect the ISPs of criminal complicity in regards to their subscriber's alleged actions.

    Is this how it normally works down under?

    Cheers,
    -- RLJ

    • They probably seized the servers in question for evidence. They'll be returned as soon as the forensic folks are done making a "tamperproof" copy. (Not the word I mean but it's nearly time to go home and I can't think.) Less disruptive to take the hardware and make a copy off-site and then return it than to try and make their equipment function on-site. Coupla days she'll be right mate.
      • They definitely wouldn't have dared taking the servers for evidence - not only is it illegal without express permission but it'd disrupt Australian internet. You're talking about the three or four biggest ISPs in Australia holding thousands of websites!
    • that the ISPs were accessed without prior warning and traffic monitored for a small amount of time, and previous traffic recorded, as well as reviewing all of the websites held on the server. As I understand it it is not unheard of in America either.

    • Re:Can somebody explain Australian law for me? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Wild Wizard ( 309461 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:55AM (#5447373) Journal
      they have gone through the court system the raid is when they turn up with the nice little court documents that says they can look at whatever they want

      big corporates get the same treatment that your local drug dealer gets its called equality i know thats a hard concept for some to grasp

      • Give me a break. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by thatguywhoiam ( 524290 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @10:32AM (#5448640)
        big corporates get the same treatment that your local drug dealer gets its called equality i know thats a hard concept for some to grasp

        I do have a hard time grasping that, mostly because of its extreme variance from the truth.

        I mean, I don't even know how to rebut that. Its so painfully, blatantly obvious that large corporations get preferential treatment in nearly all matters, vs. private citizens (and yes, drug dealers). Tell me, when's the last time you heard about a corporate office tower being raided at 4 a.m. with flashbangs and shotguns?

        Sorry, not insightful.

    • Re:Can somebody explain Australian law for me? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by SQL Error ( 16383 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:12AM (#5447435)
      It can happen that way.

      I've actually seen this first hand (under slightly diferent circumstances). They don't charge in with guns drawn, but they do appear without notice, in considerable numbers, bearing appropriate warrants and court orders, and secure anything that they might consider evidence. Which may be your mail server.

      The idea is to preserve the evidence, but the way they go about it is misguided and unnecessary more often than not.

    • Re:Can somebody explain Australian law for me? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Goldberg's Pants ( 139800 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:15AM (#5447448) Journal
      Wouldn't be the first time the AFP have overreacted.

      Just got done reading this [underground-book.com]. When it comes to computer "crime" they do seem to have the approach of trying to swat an ant with a sledgehammer.

      They're also a bunch of racist bastards if the book is to be believed.

  • wow (Score:4, Funny)

    by rigelstar ( 243170 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:36AM (#5447316)
    Sounds so Orwellian for an American groupie country. Whats going on?

  • Anyone with specifics? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by johny_qst ( 623876 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:36AM (#5447317) Journal
    Does anyone know if the ISP's were monitoring the users pipes? Or is this simply a case of 'If you left it in your user space on their machine you're up the creek sans paddle'?
    • I am unsure of the specifics of this case, but I have previously done quite a bit of work inside the one of the Crime Commission offices in .au

      The techos were quite proud of the fact that with a quick phone call to Telstra (and a warrant of some sort I imagine), they can mirror *ANY* broadband (read: xDSL or Cable) line to a residential home/apartment. At the back end, they have sniffers written by a major commercial company which are unavailable to consumers for purchase. I don't know the details or the level of the decode these sniffers can perform, but would imagine it is VERY good.

      Apparently they have caught quite a few dealers and other small crims soley by using this.....

      From all the news sources though, this sounds like a raid on ISP infrastructure rather than mirror of some users internet links.

  • big problem here... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TWX_the_Linux_Zealot ( 227666 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:36AM (#5447319) Journal
    Why would someone committing computer-related illegal activities store anything on their ISP's servers? That's just begging for the systems administrator to find it themselves, and report you for something (assuming it violates their ethics code).

    One of the strongest truths in anything that isn't necessarily legal, or could be interpretted as not legal, is that you don't leave any evidence that others can control. If you're really smart, you leave no evidence at all, period, but if you do leave something, make sure that it is in your control, and your control alone.

    The other thing that I'm shuddering about is the possible downtime effects that this has on everyone else who uses the equipment for fully legitimate purposes. Suddenly, the possibility of server outages, network outages, and other miscellaneous service problems ensue, especially if a federal entity decides that equipment itself is to be confinscated as evidence, and they don't take care to properly handle what mess they leave behind.
    • The last time I checked the majority of criminals weren't very bright. Of course when you start talking about "copyright infringment" most people don't even fully understand the laws and so are more likely to do something illegal ( or stupid ). Add to this the fact that most of your mp3 traders are probably not your most technically elite and there is a better chance these files are on the ISPs servers as well as home computers.

    • Re:big problem here... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sm.arson ( 559130 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:05AM (#5447414) Homepage
      One of the strongest truths in anything that isn't necessarily legal, or could be interpretted as not legal, is that you don't leave any evidence that others can control. If you're really smart, you leave no evidence at all, period, but if you do leave something, make sure that it is in your control, and your control alone.
      That is a good point; clearly, most of these "criminals" are just young kids out there looking to make a "name" for themselves by hosting the most mp3s and warez. They don't take the extra precautions because they don't think they are commiting any real crime.

      The real criminals (IMHO) are the scum that try to sell pirated CD-Rs and DVD-Rs in the backalleys of New York, and I'm 100% in support of corporate and government efforts to crack down on these guys.

      I don't, however, agree with the RIAA's apparent goal of making a multi-million dollar example out of some 16 year old kid. Just direct complaints to the ISP and have them shut down the account after it's been proven to host pirated files. No need to bust down doors and put people behind bars...

      • Re:big problem here... (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Dillan ( 547965 )
        IF you go to any location where NATO or UN troops are operating you will find a "CD alley" either just outside or even inside the camp.
        Last place they were selling DVDs for 5USD. why don't the RIAA go after the UN and NATO, that would be more fun to watch.

    • Re:big problem here... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by supabeast! ( 84658 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:38AM (#5447494)
      "Why would someone committing computer-related illegal activities store anything on their ISP's servers?"

      You assume too much. Some of the sleazier warez groups and many child porn groups share hacked servers. If someone at the ISP was involved in such activities, raiding the criminals first may have lead to destruction of evidence by the bad guy on site. By raiding the ISPs directly, the authorities get the servers, secure the hard disks, and then arrest the bad guys later.

    • Re:big problem here... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ATMAvatar ( 648864 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:45AM (#5447517) Journal
      The other thing that I'm shuddering about is the possible downtime effects that this has on everyone else who uses the equipment for fully legitimate purposes. Suddenly, the possibility of server outages, network outages, and other miscellaneous service problems ensue, especially if a federal entity decides that equipment itself is to be confinscated as evidence, and they don't take care to properly handle what mess they leave behind.

      This bothers me as well. There's a good chance that raids like this can do far greater financial damage than the piracy they are trying to combat. How many online businesses will be affected? What happens if valuable subscriber data is lost as a result of the raids?

      It sickens me how the authorities and lawmakers bend over backwards for the recording/movie industry without so much as considering the negative consequences of what they are doing. I suppose this is just another glaring example of how you can buy "justice." It's only a matter of time before stuff like this happens in the US, and I wonder how many times I can look forward to lose 'net access because some tard using my ISP leaves his linkin park (or some other equally worthless band) mp3 collection on his webspace.

    • Re:big problem here... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Phroggy ( 441 ) <slashdot3@@@phroggy...com> on Thursday March 06, 2003 @04:43AM (#5447662) Homepage
      Why would someone committing computer-related illegal activities store anything on their ISP's servers? That's just begging for the systems administrator to find it themselves, and report you for something (assuming it violates their ethics code).

      Every system administrator I've known who has done anything to crack down on users hosting illegal content has first checked to see if the user has any good MP3s or movies they don't have yet, and saved them before taking action against the user.

  • Lately... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by asparagus ( 29121 ) <koonce@gm a i l . com> on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:36AM (#5447321) Homepage Journal
    It seems like the Aussies have taken a page or two from the US's "Big Book O' Terrorism" manual.

    Any .au geeks that have lived in the US and would care to compare/contrast the two in terms of rights, both real and perceived?

    • Re:Lately... (Score:5, Funny)

      by nathanh ( 1214 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:07AM (#5447422) Homepage
      It seems like the Aussies have taken a page or two from the US's "Big Book O' Terrorism" manual.

      No way! All Australians are prepared to combat terrorism. I've got my Government Endorsed Anti-Terrorism Fridge Magnet and I'm completely safe now!

      • Not only have we had really lame television advertisements about the increased threat of terrorism telling us to be "alert, but not alarmed" and very little else of use, the government has sent out an "information brochure" with a cover letter from the Prime Minister, containing information on what to do in case of a terrorist attack and fridge magnet listing handy numbers to call in case of seeing "suspicious activity" to every friggin' household in Australia, at the cost of 20-odd million dollars (the rough equivalent of a 200-million dollar spend in the US federal budget).

        The brochures contain absolutely nothing useful, it's just the standard natural-disaster guff. The general reaction has been that it's a gross waste of money and an exercise in scaring people into sticking with the incumbent government.In fact, many thousands of people, myself included, have written "return to sender" on the wrapper and dropped it back in the post... :)

    • Re:Lately... (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      To broadly generalize, Australians have no constitutional rights in the sense that Americans do. OTOH, most of them think they do, and the government mostly respects that belief, to a greater extent than the American government does anyway. They are then terribly surprised when their government decides to (legally) trample all over those non-existant rights, unlike Americans who are less surprised when the government violates their constitutional rights.

      I hope this clears things up.

    • Re:Lately... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I've lived in Australia and the States... Australia is a country that teeters on a knife-edge between over-the-top socialism and an over-the-top police state. Pretty much the worst of both world, in my opinion. Australians have no constitutional rights in the sense that Americans do, and the only people willing to actively support civil rights are generally the same people who lean to the left. Libertarianism is not very popular in Australia, neither in name or in theory.

      America, on the other hand, benefits from being a larger country, so more people can speak out when rights are being infringed... plus there are constitutional rights to infringe in the first place! That said, the lack of a decent social welfare network really drives a wedge between the rich and the poor - and i don't mean the Very Rich - i mean the people who can afford to go to university (which is probably most people reading Slashdot). And the impression i get is that the poor rarely bother registering to vote, so things are tipped strongly in favor of the rich. Not so in Australia where everyone is forced to vote (by law). But then that has lead to the horrible socialist police state i mentioned above.

      In short, we're all fucked. Blame Canada ;-)

  • Crikey! (Score:5, Funny)

    by stevezero ( 620090 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:38AM (#5447326)
    Does this mean I have to give up my downloaded copies of the 'Crocodile Hunter'?

  • It's about Music Privacy, not Anti-Terrorism... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:42AM (#5447337)
    "EDERAL police have executed search warrants on Telstra and internet company Eftel in one of Australia's largest investigations into alleged music piracy, which could be worth up to $60 million.

    Warrants were also executed at several other un-named internet service providers, with more warrants possible as the investigation continues.

    It's understood the police were seeking information about the identities of particular subscribers, as well as music files that may have been stored by them on servers.

    According to sources, the wholesale value of the allegedly pirated music may be as high as $60 million - making it one of Australia's largest copyright infringement investigations.

    A police spokeswoman confirmed that officers, accompanied by computer forensics experts, visited a Telstra facility in Melbourne and Eftel's Perth offices, as part of ongoing investigations.

    Search warrants were also executed at several other ISPs, which she declined to name.

    She said the execution of these warrants was part of "related investigations".

    The Australian understands that the investigations are at an early stage, and that more ISPs may yet be searched.

    Simon Ehrenfeld, the chief executive of Eftel parent company Datafast Telecommunications, said the company had co-operated with police, and had provided information relating to a subscriber. The ISP had also closed the subscriber's website.

    "We are a large ISP, and we get police in frequently with warrants asking for information relating to the activities of particular subscribers," he said.

    A Telstra spokesman confirmed a police search had been undertaken, but said "these things happen all the time".Eftel has about 50,000 subscribers. Telstra has about 1.4 million.

    The investigation comes as the music industry lines up against alleged pirates at some of Australia's top universities.

    In an unrelated matter, music labels Sony, EMI and Universal have taken the University of Sydney, the University of Tasmania and the University of Melbourne to the Federal Court in an effort to secure information about alleged piracy.

    The three universities have agreed to preserve possible evidence, but they're expected to fight any attempt to get them to hand this over when the case resumes later this month.

    Overseas, the recording industry is suing Australian-run file-sharing network Kazaa, which allows users to swap music files stored on their personal computers."

  • steganographic "chat" (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Orthogonal Jones ( 633685 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:46AM (#5447352)
    Maybe P2P could masquerade inside chat channels if actual English words mapped to byte values.

    In other words, each side has a copy of the Oxford English dictionary, where "aardvark"=1, "zylem"=N, and then write stuff like:

    proletariat inches gullible xenophobia ...

    to get a music file across. If N is really large, the efficiency may not be bad (?)

    An eavesdropping program would have to understand at least joint probabilities of adjacent words to make a case. So we could force the RIAA to participate in natural language program development. Make them do something useful for once.
    • You'd only need 255 "words" (to cover all the standard binary characters) but for steno purposes, you could assign all words of a given group to each character -- say, 1/255th of words beginning with each letter would be assigned to each binary character.

      Hell, use random made-up words for that matter, just to confuse the issue. Mix in other languages too.

      Hmm. Ya know those crapfloodings on Usenet, that are long strings of random gibberish? :)

    • What prevents the RIAA from obtaining this P2P client and letting it do the decryption (or whatever tool is used to turn the chat back into a music file)?

      Also, transforming each byte into a multi-byte code word would increase bandwidth usage several times over, as if it wasn't bad enough already.
      • What prevents the RIAA from obtaining this P2P client and letting it do the decryption (or whatever tool is used to turn the chat back into a music file)?

        For starters, I'm sure the Oxford English Dictionary is a copyrighted work and they'd need a license to use it legally.

        Also, transforming each byte into a multi-byte code word would increase bandwidth usage several times over, as if it wasn't bad enough already.

        Thus increasing the market for faster broadband connections. Some cable companies are already beginning to offer double-bandwidth packages.

  • Copyrighted Material? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ChibiTaryn ( 646855 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:50AM (#5447363) Homepage Journal
    What I want to know is, what exactly constitutes "copyrighted material" legally here in Australia.

    I have a bunch of SNES ROM's and anime (series, music and movies) that have no licencing in Australia. I also have some PlayStation ISO's, same deal. The anime/game wasn't released in Australia (or in any PAL territory, with some of them), so the only way that I could get it was online.

    If it were possible for me to have acquired this stuff another way, I'd have done it...

    Is that kind of thing considered illegal?

  • Something fishy there? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Aropax20 ( 636154 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:50AM (#5447366)
    It seems strange to me (as an Aussie) that our Federal Police would have nothing better to do than the legwork for a music industry lawsuit.

    Chasing child pr0n-ography - yep.

    Keeping Australia free from terror - yep

    Those sort of raids are all about upholding current laws

    But chasing up a bunch of mp3 downloaders?

    Pull the other leg, it plays JingleBells.mp3

  • Cops aren't just sniffing for drugs anymore... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by skogs ( 628589 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:52AM (#5447367) Journal
    Now they can read whats on your computer screen! Whats next? Roaming through college dormitories in search of students downloading music and porno when they aren't over 21 yet? Do we need to bring a legal fiasco [isp-planet.com] back into the mix? Did those admins that knew what was being downloaded really deserve to be locked up instead?

    Wow. Search warrents for allowing people to download music...hope it doesn't trickle down to everybody.

  • Preferred Name (Score:4, Funny)

    by B3ryllium ( 571199 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:58AM (#5447390) Homepage
    I prefer to call them the Federal Austrailian Police, or the FAP Squad. *fapfapfap*

  • ISP premium privacy services... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by megazoid81 ( 573094 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:58AM (#5447391)
    If the legal framework allows it, there should be ISPs who offer separately secured hardware and better assurances of privacy protection and non-disclosure to paranoid subscribers who are willing to pay a premium for this purpose. I, for one, would gladly pay up for such assurances. Any other takers?

    Presumably, there could be some kind of ISP credit rating to add accountability and prevent consumers from rapidly switching ISPs to circumvent scrutiny. Privacy premium Internet access could be granted based on records of responsible online citizenship and satisfaction on the ISPs part that the subscriber wouldn't do anything illegal and get them into trouble.

    Would it be possible to convince ISPs to implement such an 'Iron Curtain' feature or would it qualify as aiding terrorists, like purchasing narcotics does? *sigh*

    • Re:ISP premium privacy services... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by rainwalker ( 174354 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:16AM (#5447452)
      Although it sounds like a good idea, that would make me even *more* paranoid...after all, which subscribers are you going to target for surveillance (assuming you don't have the resources to monitor everyone), the regular people, or those who opted for a "high-privacy" connection? After all, they *must* have something to hide!

      What we really need is a better anonymizing service, or perhaps a distributed proxy system. When I use our university's internet connection, I set up an IPSEC tunnel between my notebook and my home network, as I don't want the IT people logging my browsing and watching for subversive sites (2600.com, etc.). It would be great if a tool was available to do this on a mass scale. Something like Freenet, but for short-term web caching instead. Encrypted communication between hosts with requests spread over a large number of peers, squid-esque caching, 'bogus' packets to defeat traffic analysis...feel free to let me know if such a beast exists :)

  • $60 million---How do they know? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by release7 ( 545012 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @02:59AM (#5447397) Homepage Journal
    Estimating of the cost of infinitely reproducible 1s and 0s is probably futile and ultimately an exercise in the absurd. Journalists need to stop reporting such numbers as fact without explaining where exactly how this amount is arrived at.

    My guess is that these dollar figure likely assume that every copy of a song downloaded results in a lost record sale so the record labels can cry "boo-hoo" all the way to the bank. However, just because I have the Rocky theme on my hard drive doesn't mean that I would have run out to the store and plunked down $13 bucks for the CD otherwise.

    • You're right about that, "Police think that there were a whole lot of 1s and 0s" just doesn't grab headlines. But even if the numbers are total BS (and I expect they are) there is the underlying understandable concern that music swapping eats into sales. I purchased 80+ CDs before Napster, 3 since and I'd be curious if other people have done the same. If you've got to complain to the judge that people are costing you money you might as well go in with the highest number you can get away with. That being said I also think that the fact that the price of CDs and quality of the music would have me paying $10 per song I want is a factor.

    • My guess is that these dollar figure likely assume that every copy of a song downloaded results in a lost record sale so the record labels can cry "boo-hoo" all the way to the bank.

      I download music too.. not from Kazaa but from the less know WinMX [winmx.com]. I download - usually the 128kbs or less copy if I can find it - anything that I'm either recomended or has picked up on the radio as sounding interesting. Then I listen, decide weither or not it's worth my money. If it is, I make a note and keep an eye out for the CD... if it isn't, I delete the file

      So yes, every downloaded song that I delete cost them a recordsale - but I don't buy records which I havn't checked out yet.
    • I think whichever record industry(ies) we're talking about here just did a simple AD&D calculation:
      1d10 * 10 million dollars.

      They rolled a `6' so they tell the world: $60 million!

  • Why Raid the ISP (Score:2, Interesting)

    by cyril3 ( 522783 )
    A request through the Court system would usually be in the process of discovery after a charge has been laid. Even in the USA I think search warrants are served by police in the investigation process and seizure of the machines would only be contemplated where the person holding the machine might destroy evidence.

    Raid is a strong word and in this case a little excessive I think. The report says te police turned up with a search warrent and computer forensics experts. I suspect they got the cooperation of the ISP rather than close down Telstra (which has i dunno 50% of the internet market in Australia) by taking away servers.

    I always thought small fry p2p users just opened their home machines to the network. But there have been stories in the Australian papers recently that suggest that ISPs are actually hosting p2p fodder on their own account in order to stimulate traffic. Unless these raids are looking for this type of material or anon ftp sites or stolen space I guess the police are in fact looking at traffic logs a la Verizon.

  • Hell, we raided the library! (Score:5, Informative)

    by ihatewinXP ( 638000 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:10AM (#5447431)
    From the American Library Associations website: http://www.ala.org/alonline/news/2003/030224.html# santafe I was horrified to read that a man was hamdcuffed and brought in for perfectly harmless (but anti-Bush) chat in a library. Read the article and shiver. This story along with the Patriot Act II http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/02200 3Winslow/022003winslow.html has me very scared for my basic rights. These scenarios are coming home fast, it's good to watch Australia and Britan to see what's in store.

  • Let's look down the road, shall we? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by djupedal ( 584558 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:26AM (#5447479)
    "Authorities in [your country name here] today raided several warehouses, looking for beer making components in a widespread crackdown on home-brew that several large consortiums claim is responsible for annual corporate loses in the millions."

    "Authorities in [your country name here] today raided several warehouses, looking for bolts of fabric in a widespread crackdown on home-made garments that several large consortiums claim is responsible for annual corporate loses in the millions."

    "Authorities in [your country name here] today raided several warehouses, looking for metal forging tools and raw materials in a widespread crackdown on home-made bicycles that several large consortiums claim is responsible for annual corporate loses in the millions."

    And keep in mind that your tax monies are paying for the police to take action to support these corporations as they reach further and further into your pockets - and your life. Think this is all a reach? Think again...

    • Re:Let's look down the road, shall we? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Motherfucking Shit ( 636021 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @04:19AM (#5447607) Journal
      I don't think these analogies are really accurate. Of course it's perfectly legal to build your own bicycle, sew your own clothes, and (in some places) brew your own ale. It's also legal to go down to your local music shop, buy a guitar, and make your own music. In all of these cases you're making a creation of your own, using resources you obtained legitimately. You aren't "taking anything away" from anyone or any company.

      What it's not legal to do is hop onto someone else's bicycle parked on the sidewalk and ride away, stuff a pair of Levi's up your shirt on the way out of the department store, or walk out of the gas station with a few Colt 45s. And whether we like it or not, it's also generally not legal to share music.
      • Of course stealing is illegal. Did you stop to think who is stealing from whom?

        I said 'down the road', not 'approaching fast'.

        When these corporations get used to having the police act every time they claim loses, especially when they are as subjective as the numbers the music industry is throwing around today, what's to stop them from pulling the trigger to get the cops to act on something like market control, in the future. What's to stop this kind of activity if Coke Cola decides I've managed to replicate their secret recipe at home? If it's good enough for the scum record industry, it's good enough for the rest of corporate America, etc.

        Think about it...please don't knee jerk react with an obvious 'legal this and legal that' comment, thanks.

        • Re:Not what I said. (Score:3, Insightful)

          by forkboy ( 8644 )
          Would you call the cops if you found out people were stealing from you? I thought so.

          I don't agree with IP laws the way they are written and enforced, but as it stands, pirating music is stealing. Don't like it? Write your congressman so you can make yourself feel righteous.

          Or, a better idea, listen to and support bands that don't use the RIAA-affiliated recording/publishing houses. In a capitalist country, only changes in the bottom line can bring about change.

          Some knees can jerk both ways, see? One direction you have "But its the law" and the other you have "Corporations are taking over all our rights." I'm more inclined to the latter as well, but just being morally outraged is tiresome, I've just stopped buying products or services from companies or organizations whose ethics I do not like. I put my money where my mouth is, unlike the majority of /. who decry groups like the MPAA but still line up 6 months in advance for their movies.

          In other words, come up with some better analogies. (Not so easy...nothing else is quite like our hydrocephalic IP laws)

          • So the fact that I buy directly from artists off the internet isn't putting my money where my mouth is?

            I worked for the largest music retailer in America, and walked away on my morals. Mine, not yours or anyone else's. They are the real pirates.

            The fact that the record industry told us CD's would mean lower prices than what we were once paying for LP's has proven to be untrue. Artists make less than 5% off each CD retail. The record companies steal from us and the artists and it's ok....we steal from them and it's actionable? Sounds like a double standard to me, and I see no reason to feel sorry for anyone that can't see it.

            I've know for a long time that the music industry is stealing from me....funny, tho, I don't think the cops would be amused if I called and reported that kind of theft...perhaps if I told them you suggested I make the call, they might listen?
    • as cliche'd as these analogies and analogie shattering responses have become on slashdot on all the IP stories, I have to put my bit in here:

      Authorities in [your country name here] today raided several warehouses, looking for beer making components in a widespread crackdown on home-brew that several large consortiums claim is responsible for annual corporate loses in the millions.

      your analogies are flawed. If we were talking about people listening to home made music instead of commercial music, or even people listening to indie bands that make their MP3's available on the internet insead of commercial music, then you'd have a point.

      Here is where I would take your analogy and try to fix it to make it work for this case. The problem is, IP cases DONT HAVE real world analogies, as this is new ground. This is why this is such a big problem and dilema in the first place.

      • I agree with the part about IP cases being new ground, perhaps.

        I wonder if the Swiss banks convicted of holding stolen Nazi monies would work as a precedent....

        Otherwise, the flaw is in your interpretation of my analogies, not the analogies themselves, since I left them open for just that.

  • Note (Score:4, Informative)

    by DiSKiLLeR ( 17651 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:29AM (#5447482) Homepage Journal
    The AFP (Australian Federal Police) is the Australian Equivelant of the FBI.

    Also ASIO is the Australian Equivelant of the CIA.

    I always wanted to work for the AFP or ASIO. But its too hard to get in, and you don't get paid enough....

    D.

    • Re:Note (Score:5, Funny)

      by nathanh ( 1214 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @04:56AM (#5447683) Homepage
      The AFP (Australian Federal Police) is the Australian Equivelant of the FBI. Also ASIO is the Australian Equivelant of the CIA.

      By using the acronyms ASIO, CIA and FBI you have activated the Australian Echelon System. Unfortunately due to budget cutbacks we cannot record your call right now. Please ring again between the hours of 9am and 5pm weekdays and an Echelon Recording Specialist will eavesdrop on your conversation. We value your information and look forwards to eavesdropping on you in the near future.

    • Re:Note (Score:2, Informative)

      by allrong ( 445675 )
      Nope,

      The AFP may share some of the FBI's cross-state and international policing jurisdictional powers, but I think their scope is far smaller, partly because our police forces are state based rather than county/shire.

      ASIO is our domestic spying organisation, unlike the CIA which is supposedly international only and hence is more closely related to the FBI in that regard. (modelled on MI5)

      ASIS is our international spy organisation. (modelled on MI6)

      The Defence Signals Directorate (DSD) is the closest thing we have to the NSA.

  • Making examples out of people.. (Score:3, Informative)

    by SystematicPsycho ( 456042 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @03:50AM (#5447530)
    Sounds like they're about to make some examples out of people. Seriously, kids, you're not going to get out of this one with a note from your mum.

    Anyway, there is some footage of the raids taking place here metallicops [campchaos.com]

  • Holy shit... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MoThugz ( 560556 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @04:00AM (#5447550) Homepage
    From the Article: FEDERAL police have executed search warrants on Telstra and internet company Eftel in one of Australia's largest investigations into alleged music piracy, which could be worth up to $60 million.

    Wow... $60 million!

    Assuming the price of a CD is $20, it means that the pirate has an MP3 collection of equivalent to 3,000,000 CDs!

    Assuming each CD has 10 songs on it, then the pirate has 30 million MP3s!

    Assuming each MP3 is about 5 megs... then the amount of storage required is 150TB!

    Did they raid Kazaa's ISP literally... or is this just one journalist's idea of sprucing up what should have been a normal IP-infringement case?
  • But can't they find more productive ways to [waste and/or] spend our tax dollars. Teenagers with mp3s (or some other common "pirate" commodity). They've already trimmed education _more_ because of the war.

    - Angry student ) :

  • $60 million? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by the_proton ( 257557 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @04:14AM (#5447589)
    Hrmmm, that sounds a bit dodgy to me...

    Lets think about it, assuming each song is worth $5 (a bit generous but let's be nice...), that makes around 12 million songs. With each song being around 3 MB, that'd be 36,000,000 MB... which is about 34 TB.

    Now you can't tell me that any ISP lets customers have that much storage, and they would probably notice if someone, or a small group, was contributing to 34 TB of traffic.

    Sounds like someone might be overestimating by a bit don't you think?

    - proton
  • I mean here in the UK it great to have no worries.

    I mean we dont have the RIP bill that means you can be chucked in prison for 5 years if you wont tell police your passwords, and they don't even need a warrent

    Or that on the average day you are caught on 100 different CCTV cameras

    Or that its a police state but most people haven't noticed yet

    Rus

  • Decidely odd (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ras ( 84108 ) <russell+slashdot ... rt DOT id DOT au> on Thursday March 06, 2003 @04:53AM (#5447680) Homepage

    Copyright violation in Australia is a civil offence in Australia, unless you sell the stuff. Search for the word "civil" here [gigalaw.com].

    I know this with a fair amount of certainty, as I was on the end of a similar search warrant during the "drink or die" bust. At the time I was totally mystified as to why, after telling me they were going to search my work place for "copyright violations" and having a search warrant that said they could look for anything illegal under Australia law, they took absolutely no interest in the various CD collections we have, nor did they search any of the workstations for illegal software.

    It turned out the target was a guy who used to work here and who did (briefly) have an IRC chat with drink or die after it had been infiltrated. That was how they got our IP. The cops were interested in IRC logs mainly, but I had cleaned up the servers ages ago. His house was later searched and the fed's did find his collection of 200 odd pirated movies. But it was just a hobby - he did not sell anything. I am presuming that is why he has not been charged.

    It is a weird hobby if you ask me. It costs more here in Australia to download & burn a movie then it does to hire it, a lot more in fact.

    Anyway, there has to be more to this than was reported in the article. For the police to be involved someone must be suspected of selling, or somehow otherwise getting monetary gain out of illegally distributing copyrighted material. Australia's copyright laws may sound lame from what I have said, but if someone is found to of broken the criminal law it won't be a slap on the wrist. They will end up in jail.

  • Really music? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by QueenOfSwords ( 179856 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @04:56AM (#5447685) Homepage
    Is it possible the MP3 story is a cover for an ongoing investigation into child pr0n ? Perhaps that's what the AFP are actually after but they don't want to tip off the crims, they go to ground very quickly.
    There was that story on the news in Australia last night about concern for the whereabouts of a child depicted in a porn photo, those photos don't get out unless someone gets busted. These raids could be a result of that. Just a thought.

  • Interesting quote from afp.gov.au (Score:3, Insightful)

    by djupedal ( 584558 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @04:56AM (#5447686)
    "The challenge facing those who would minimise computer-related crime is to seek a balance which would allow a tolerable degree of illegality in return for creative exploitation of the technology. At this early stage of the technological revolution, it may be useful for individuals, interest groups and governments to articulate their preferences and let these serve as signals to the market. Markets may be able to provide more efficient solutions than state interventions." [afp.gov.au]
  • I mean, this would be the equivalent of raiding AT&T or Qwest in the us.
  • s'funny eh how capitalists love market forces when they support profitability.

    mp3 trading is a supreme example of market forces in action, cd's are overpriced in anyone's eyes. If they were $5 (us) then it wouldn't be worth copying them.

    Keeping them at $15-20 is an insult, it's no wonder people don't want to pay up.

    shame about the aussies, they arfe so laid back in many other ways. How did they get such a dumb govt. Probably to pissed @ the beach to care.

    I know I am (I'm in Aus on holiday 8)

  • My experiences with Law & Carriers (Score:5, Interesting)

    by harikiri ( 211017 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @06:01AM (#5447868)
    When I worked at a major carrier in Australia as a security admin, we had some on staff known as 'LELU' - which from recollection stands for Law Enforcement Lliason Unit. These were the people whom the different law enforcement groups would approach with warrants and requests for subscriber info. Then LELU in turn would approach the security geeks and say 'we need to know which subscriber was on IP address x.x.x.x at 10.30pm GMT+11'.

    Not once do I recall a 'raid' of our subscriber info. The LELU process seemed to be a good mechanism for law agencies to work with the techs at the organisation.
  • .."raided to [..] seek the identity of particular subscribers in relation to their activity and files"..

    .."'declined to name' ISPs"...


    like me, did anyone else think this was regarding child pornography, and not (as is the case) a trickle of users in the sea that is filesharing, arrested at the behest of record companies?

    ..priorities, priorities...

  • Why Shouldn't Police Investigate Potential Crime? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by reallocate ( 142797 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @11:02AM (#5448823)
    If the police have reason to believe that ISP servers hold pirated files (a safe bet), why shouldn't they investigate? If someone had a warehouse stocked with illegal booze, or drugs, would you expect them to look the other way? Or, better yet for this crowd, how about a warehouse full of Linux CD's containing code that violates the GPL?

    Regardless of where you stand on this issue, it's silly and naive to expect the police to alter their behavior because of your political opinions.

  • What's Going on Down There? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ablair ( 318858 ) on Thursday March 06, 2003 @01:07PM (#5449882)
    What's been happening in Australia lately? It used to be known as one of the most open & welcoming societies. But now with increasing incidents like this, like detention camps [bbc.co.uk] for immigrants and the Australian government apparently falling over itself [bbc.co.uk] to out-ape the Bush Administration, it's quickly losing that reputation. Can someone from there explain? I can't see feds cracking down on mp3 trading as a result of the Bali bombing.

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