Microsoft Applies For .NET Patent 628
Wojina writes "Microsoft has applied for a comprehensive patent on what appears to be the entire implementation of the .NET CLR (Common Language Runtime) and the framework APIs. Microsoft's CLR is an implementation of the CLI (submitted to ECMA for standardization). Does this bode ill for the Mono project? See the CNET News story." And a chaser: Nept points to this interesting Microsoft-funded .NET obfuscation project.
CNET Article Text (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft declined to elaborate on its plans for the patent, but intellectual property attorneys said that if it's granted, the company could dictate how, or whether, developers of software and devices can link to the
"It looks pretty broad," said Jeff E. Schwartz, a partner with McKenna Long & Aldridge. "It could be fairly significant."
The patent is one of several that Microsoft is applying for related to
IBM is the most prolific patent generator, topping the list of corporate patent awards for the last 10 years. Big Blue landed 3,288 patents in 2002, bringing its total over the past 10 years to more than 22,000. Lately, the company has been focusing on patenting technology related to its computing-on-demand initiative.
Patents have become an increasingly common way for software makers to exert control over their intellectual property. One of the concerns about the proliferation of technology patents is the impact it could have on standards development. Some developers fear the trend will let a few patent holders dictate the direction of standards.
It's unclear what effect the Microsoft
One person affiliated with the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), another major standards body, said it's difficult to comment on the
IBM said last year that it would not charge royalties on patented technology that is part of an e-commerce Web standard.
More and more, the patent debate is pitting companies like IBM and Microsoft--which are looking to patents to protect and recoup the millions of dollars they spend developing products--against members of the open-source and free software movements, which say the patent process stifles innovation by covering processes that are common on the Web.
People like Free Software Foundation guru Richard Stallman have urged boycotts of companies that aggressively enforce patents.
Meanwhile, Bruce Perens, a consultant and leader of the open-source movement, worries that Microsoft's patents could shut out alternative software development. "Microsoft is being careful to patent every aspect of APIs related to
Open-source developers are already hard at work trying to build open-source implementations of
Re:implementation? (Score:5, Informative)
If it did then GIF editors not written by Unisys wouldn't have to pay fees.
It's a patent on techniques for implementing .NET, techniques that must be applied to be .NET compatible.
I'm waiting to see Mono's reaction.
Patents & Antitrust (Score:5, Informative)
... When a patented or copyrighted product is one of many products competing in a market, antitrust issues typically do not arise from unilateral conduct. However, when a patented or copyrighted product is so successful that it evolves into its own economic market, succeeds in garnering a large market share, or is essential to compete in a market, the antitrust laws and the intellectual property laws collide. The antitrust laws' primary purpose of preserving competition is frustrated when the holder of a patent or copyright exercises the exclusionary market power that comes with those rights.
The United States Supreme Court has yet to deal with these knotty issues, although the Court apparently is seriously considering doing so....
Cheers, Joel
It's just the web services part (Score:3, Informative)
Okay (Score:5, Informative)
Question 122: Could patents be used to completely disable Mono (either submarine patents filed now, or changes made by Microsoft specifically to create patent problems)?
No. First, its basic functional capabilities have pre-existed too long to be held up by patents. The basic components of Mono are technologically equivalent to Sun's Java technology, which has been around for years.
Mono will also implement multi-language and multi-architecture support, but there are previous technologies such as UCSD p-code and ANDF that also support multiple languages using a common intermediate language. The libraries are similar to other language's libraries, so again, they're too similar to be patentable in large measure.
However, if Microsoft does patent some technology, then our plan is to either (1) work around it, (2) chop out patented pieces, (3) find prior art that would render the patent useless. Not providing a patented capability would weaken the interoperability, but it would still provide the free software / open source software community with good development tools, which is the primary reason for developing Mono.
Letters of Objection to the PO (Score:1, Informative)
claims are insane (Score:5, Informative)
How are, for example, a web server (handles requests submitted by remote devices) and web browser (interface to present functions used to access resources) not covered by this claim? The next independent claim is:
Like, e.g. SETI@Home over TCP/IP? Or PVM [ornl.gov]?
Or claim 19:
...like, say, Mozilla.
Of course, there are dependent claims that try to make this more specific (ooh, using XML documents over a network, that's original). And, of course, the whole thing could be rejected by the patent office.
Still, it's like they didn't even make an effort to try and avoid the most obvious prior-art objections. Almost like they have complete contempt for the patent office, and confidence that no one will dare to challenge their multi-billion-dollar legal war chest if they ever do assert patent rights over someone. But no, that's crazy.
Re:Linux? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, and with the current state of the Patent and Trademark Office (as for the last few years), just about any patent applied for gets granted, especially if the applicant has deep pockets.
The PTO gets paid more for issuing a patent than for declining one, and the PTO is "self-funding". Furthermore, there's no penalty to the PTO if they're found to have issued a patent they shouldn't have (ie for prior art, obviousness, whatever) -- the penalty is all to those buying, er, obtaining the patent, and to the public for suffering bogus patents.
Re:Linux? (Score:5, Informative)
It is most likely that Microsoft are applying for the patent for purely defensive reasons. I have had many patent shits apply for patents on the work I have done, often many years after it became public knowledge. Getting the patent in first is always a good idea.
Microsoft might possibly go after Linux, but it is much more likely to go after Sun and Java. Their real beef is that Sun has been playing silly buggers with lawyers. That may not be such a hot move when Microsoft have the engineering power to out patent Sun.
While the broader claims of the patent are likely going to be rejected it is almost certain that some claims will be allowed. If so expect Microsoft to make the terms for Sun every bit as unreasonable as Sun's terms for Microsoft.
There is no reason to beat up Linux though, Microsoft does not want to get 100% of the market, they want more like 85% so they don't keep getting slammed for anti-trust issues.
I have been planning to develop with .NET (Score:3, Informative)
I like developing on Windows as long as the tools are good, and despite the early bugginess of VS
Re:Wow, they are patenting RPC and Web Browsers (Score:4, Informative)
Personally I had trouble understanding the claims one at a time. I have no clue as to what is actually covered here, and so far I have not heard from anyone else who has a clear idea, so it is a little early to judge whether there might be prior art problems.
Where the did you get this? (Score:2, Informative)
Also From Mono's FAQ: Question 666
I don't see a question 666 in the official Mono FAQ page [go-mono.com].
Thus ensuring that Microsoft does not "cut off our air supply"
The word "air" does not appear in the Mono FAQ page.
I'm assuming that the parent comment was original humor, but it had me there for a second. Good job.
Tcl-DP is prior art (Score:5, Informative)
Claim 1 reads:
Tcl-DP provided an application configured to handle requests submitted by remote devices over a network (the RPC server), and an application program interface to present functions used by the application to access network and computing resources of the distributed computing system (the dp_RPC command protocol). The client application mentioned in the dependent claims is provided by any application configured as an RPC client.
Re:Al Gore will have something to say about *that* (Score:3, Informative)
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."
Yea take it out of context and we have the rampant 'Al Gore Created the Internet' bullshit. All he is saying is that he took the initiative ( The right or power to introduce a new measure or course of action, as in legislation; as, the initiative in respect to revenue bills is in the House of Representatives. ) to support the creation of that network which you call internet.
Now; what does that mean. He isn't saying he made it. He isn't saying he thought it up. He's saying 'I thought this was a damn fine idea, and look! I was right, vote for me because we both use email!)
Please stop raping the dead horse that is this joke. Yes, amuzing at first, now all I can say is 'Get over it and look at the facts.'
Examples please (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Who buys Obfuscated code? (Score:5, Informative)
This is where the obfuscators come in. They start renaming your functions, parameters, types, etc., but only in the MSIL that's in the assembly, not in your source code. There are other levels of obfuscation that some products support, but most of them will at least do this for you. If you don't think that's a big deal, go here [ioccc.org] to see for yourself. Staring at code that has all functions named "a1, a2, a3" and so one, combined with a similar naming scheme for other variables...well, it'll drive you to the bottle.
Many
Don't Panic - Yet (Score:5, Informative)
First, this is a patent application, not an actual patent grant. I doubt that the application would last very long in its current form - it's too broad, even by the USPTO's narrow criteria for broadness.
Second, because Microsoft is standardizing this technology through the ECMA, as an eventual lead-in to ISO, they will be in a difficult position if they start demanding royalties or playing RAND games.
They backed off on the Kerberos thing, and they could be made to back off here too - blatantly targetting the only two competitors in the CLR space (Mono and Portable.NET) won't win them any PR points.
Third, most of what is discussed here has precedents in prior art. If Mono and Portable.NET infringe, then so does the JVM, and that's definite prior art.
We perhaps need to organise a bit to lobby on this one, but it isn't the end of the world - yet.
More information on Portable.NET here [southern-storm.com.au].
Re:CNET Article Text (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe, but they have never used patents to do so. Based on some quotes from billg, I even get the idea that he's opposed to it.
Octothorp (Score:2, Informative)
STUPID? Well... (Score:5, Informative)
If not, I'd appreciate a reference where MS states the intention of making ASP.NET, Windows Forms, ADO.NET etc. ECMA standards.
Re:Examples please (Score:5, Informative)
The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux remains to be investigated.
Examples from Here [ffii.org] include:
ASF: changing copyright rules by means of patents [ffii.org] Microsoft has prohibited a Free Software programmer from writing import/export filters for its Advanced Streaming Format (ASF). The programmer wanted interoperability with a format that Microsoft is promoting. But for Microsoft, interoperability is in this case doubly disadvantageous: besides reducing the lock-in effect, on which Microsoft's platform strategy relies, it also can circumvent the locks on unauthorized copying, by which Microsoft wants to attract content providers to its ASF platform. Whereas in the DeCSS case a court ruling was necessary to enforce new draconian copyright provisions of the highly disputed Digital Millenium Act, in the ASF case a simple patent suffices to achieve the same legislative goal.
and
Microsoft bars GNU software from interoperating with CIFS [ffii.org] During the 1st week of April 2002, Microsoft published a license for its new specification CIFS which it is trying to establish as a de facto communication standard. This license says that free software under GNU GPL, LGPL and similar licenses may not use CIFS. It bases this ban on two broad and trivial US patents with priority dates of 1989 and 1993. Preliminary search results suggst that these patents to not have EP (European Patent) counterparts. But there is nevertheless an EP patent which could possibly be used by MS for the same purpose. Critical network infrastructure such as Samba as well as new projects such as Mono seem to be affected.
There's also this [linuxuser.co.uk] account from Linux User (Warning: It's a pdf file):
Asked by CollabNet CTO Brian Behlendorf whether Microsoft will enforce its patents against open source projects, Mundie replied, "Yes, absolutely." An audience member pointed out that many open source projects aren't funded and so can't afford legal representation to rival Microsoft's. "Oh well," said Mundie. "Get your money, and let's go to court."
There are, I'm sure, other examples which could be provided, but this is just a small sample of Microsoft attitudes with respect to Patents and Free Software.
Re:And a collective exclamation of.... (Score:5, Informative)
What?! Oh I see, it's Icaza's fault that MS is trying to patent technology so vague that it even affects Apache.
Or are you saying that nothing is worth doing because someone may try and patent it later?
First of all, this patent only applies to "web services". Mono is so much more than that.
Second of all, Mono was started before this patent was filed, and it hasn't been accepted yet. Say what you will about the patent office, they still reject 75% of all patent applications.. why are you so sure this one will go through?
Re:Mono is evil (Score:1, Informative)
See the Mono FAQ at
http://www.go-mono.com/faq.html#licensing
"The C# Compiler is released under the terms of the GNU GPL. The runtime libraries are under the GNU Library GPL. And the class libraries are released under the terms of the MIT X11 license."
"The Mono runtime and the Mono C# Compiler are also available under a proprietary license for those who can not use the LGPL and the GPL in their code."
Mono is not the only implementation of the Microsoft
There is Microsoft's Shared Source CLI (also known as Rotor) and is open sourced for only
non-commercial research. It works on Windows, FreeBSD, MacOS X, and Linux.
Then there is the Intel ORP at Intel Research.
There is the DotGNU Portable.NET implemenation as well.
I'm sure other companies, such as, HP and IBM have their own internal implementations to play with especially since they took part in the standards process.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Examples please (Score:2, Informative)
Bzzzt. Broad claims can stand on their own. (Score:4, Informative)
See also my other post [slashdot.org] in reply to another person who was similarly confused about patent law.
Re:Linux? (Score:0, Informative)
The Java VM wasn't designed to support multiple languages, the .NET CLR was.
The .NET package is more integrated than a Java/Linux solution (eg deployment is easier using .NET)
Re:uhhhhh (Score:2, Informative)
It's an octothorpe, silly! (Score:4, Informative)
# is not. It's a hash.
And to think I've been incorrectly referring to it as an octothorpe all my life (except for that brief period when it was simply a "tic-tac-toe board"). I would never think to call C# "C sharp" unless I was talking about musical notes....
Re:dear miguel, et. al., (Score:3, Informative)
Mono neither a bet nor a gamble. As laid out quite clearly in their FAQ (you have read it, right?) Mono is an implementation of a CLR, so allowing the construction of applications written in many different languages. A much cleaner framework than the current Gnome implementation.
Whether
Disclosure (Score:5, Informative)
Re:wait a minute (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Who buys Obfuscated code? (Score:3, Informative)
And many
There are further problems with obfuscation; your program losses large abilities with the reflection API, serialization may break, and encrypted crash stack-frames make it hard to glen useful info from a testing department.
I have a different protection system available:
http://thinstall.com/dotnet [thinstall.com]
which does not exhibit any of this short-commings. However this solution prevents the resulting EXE from running on Mono.
Re:legally irrelevant, but shows bad faith (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft started filing this patent in July 2001. I think that predates most of the Mono effort.
And what about having opened the specs up in the form of an ECMA standard, doesn't that make it a bit harder?
The patent looks like it applies to .NET, not ECMA C#.
In any case, Microsoft's patent is probably legally completely useless anyway. What it tells us, though, is their intent and wishes. And why battle with Microsoft over this? C# isn't worth it (Java isn't either).
Enhydra? (Score:2, Informative)
Much of the rest seems like the old UCSD Pascal p-code system and, more recently, Java touch upon.
A few years ago I worked in a logistics company and we were evaluating Enhydra and already using several packages, plus in-house developed software, to perform much of what the patent application is claims as Microsoft invention.
Opinions?
flip side (Score:3, Informative)