Cognitive Dissident: Interview with John Perry Barlow 140
Bob Hellbringer writes "Mother Jones Magazine has an online interview with John Perry Barlow of the EFF, on the things that all slashdotters love: 'the Total Information Awareness project, online activism, file sharing, and the prospect of a digital counterculture.'"
speak for yourself (Score:1, Insightful)
Speak for yourself. I for one am utterly bored with the political direction Slashdot has taken in the past couple of years. And it's not even good politics! When the issues of the day are domestic and international terrorism, the war in Afghanistan, the prospect of war in Iraq and elsewhere, the economy, or even the space shuttle, the prevailing topics of discussion on Slashdot still center around that same list of drivel: the RIAA, Microsoft, and stories about "chilling effects" that are just barely more than "we hate the government but we don't know why" flamefests.
If Slashdot wants to get political, at least get political in ways that people give a damn about. Otherwise, let's stick to the stuff that made Slashdot a fun place to hang out in the beginning: news for nerds.
Re:speak for yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably gonna get flamed for this, but:
The chilling effects people on
Re:speak for yourself (Score:3, Insightful)
I think this is one of the points he's trying to make. The "war on terror" is being used to distract people from the constitution-trampling our fearless leader is currently engaging in. When I see that 3/4 of the "issues of the day" revolve around the OssamaTerrorSaddamIraqWar, it just shows me that it's working. Personally, I'm far more worried about Bush taking away my freedom than Saddam Hussein throwing some empty chemical warheads at me.
Speaking of getting political (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:speak for yourself (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:speak for yourself (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:speak for yourself (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh, please. "Constitution-trampling?" Get a sense of perspective. The simple fact that you can climb on your computer and post a message about "Constitution-trampling" is a sign that the Constitution is alive and well.
This is basically my problem, in a nutshell. Slashdotters-- not all of us, just a vocal and strident minority-- get on here and post sarcastic remarks about the government and about their freedoms without (1) any facts to back them up, and (2) any sense of perspective that allows them to interpret their perceived offenses in context. If I were to get my news only from Slashdot, I would think that copyright term extensions is the biggest issue facing our country today. Slashdotters don't talk about the war because they typically don't understand it, or even know that it's going on. Slashdotters don't talk about deficit spending because they typically don't know what the term means.
Personally, I think Slashdot is a textbook example of a culture of affluence. Your average Slashdotter has never wanted for anything in his life, so he can't really internalize concepts like living in fear of a terrorist attack, or being unable to feed his family. So instead we get incredibly passionate screeds on the importance of source code and the long-term dangers of copyright extension, issues that even the most cursory examination reveals to be trivial in the extreme.
Okay, way, way off-topic now. Oh, well. I guess I'm as guilty of being vocal and strident as anybody.
Re:And what about.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, intelligence about the enemy in any situation gives you power over them. In this case, you (any random citizen) are in the position of enemy.
Sure, we all know that nobody like J. Edgar Hoover ever really existed, right? And people in power deserve all the power we can give them, because, after all, they're only in power to help us. Right? [/sarcasm]
The problem with your perspective is that, even if people are doing nothing wrong, they are not "fine." Not if someone with access to the information has a reason -- political, financial, or personal -- to use that information against the surveilled.
Good interview (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyhow. His view on the current laws on cyberterrorism is exactly my view (i'm contributing to BoF [www.bof.nl] (Bits of Freedom) a dutch "EFF" if you want).
It frightens me that the US government is taking these steps and stands. The country which used to be known for his freedom is slowly turning into a country like Irak itself. Controlling it's own people. It would not surprise me if even the American press is being controlled. I used to dream of leavin my own country and live in the USA. That dream has been destroyed over the last couple of years when it became clear that what constitutes freedom in my mind did not have the same meaning in the USA.
I'm so disappointed in my countrymen.
This is a pretty harsh remark but i guess it's right on the mark for most of the people i know who live in the US. They all share the feeling that their countrymen look deliberately the other way because they are afraid that if they speak up they would be branded anti-patriotic. The worst part of it is that they too look the other way. They refuse too admit it but whenever i want to discuss the TIA they just response with the phrase "It's for the protection of us all" and that's it.
I hope that the EFF can create enough momentum to turn the tide. Otherwise we are facing a grim future.
What are your expectations? (Score:5, Insightful)
For now, the threat on peoples lives comes from both terrorists and the reckless United States Governement with their wars against defensless countries like Iraq, like you said. But these days the theme of slashdot is quite detached from real world suffering and distruction. Slashdot is news for nerds, a suppliment to the regular news to bring us things of particualar importance for net-dwellers. And for this special esoteric news the villins are not terrorists, not uncle sam, not faulty heat sheilds but those who want to change our environment (the net and our own computers) forever. People like Microsoft, the RIAA and legislators that want to turn information into something that is tightly monitored and unacessable even on ones own computers are what the slashdot community (the bulk of them) are most threatened by.
People come to slashdot. They insult it on the forums they created. They insult the bulk of the community by calling them repetitive. They use words like karma-burn to discribe their posts to make moderators feel guilty to give them the -1s they deserve and they dare to try and change it to fit them!
Slashdot is getting political in a way people give a damn about. It gets political in a way as its readers and community gives a damn about with the exception of those who consider it some matter of their vain pride that they attend it to mock their opinions in a medium created for them. If you want to see war, turn on the TV, there is death, poverty, flaming astronaughts, germ bombs, guncrazy preasidents threatening to use nukes. Then you can discuss them, with friends and family over dinner. You could join a political party, join some demonstration, write a letter to the newspaper or member of parlement, write an alegorical novel, take up sculpture and express yourself that way, become a vidgilante and linch someone, join a terrorist organisation, or you could even go as far as posting your conserns at a different website... there are plenty out there that would love to hear you opinions about "real" political issues. Even post to slashdot when they post their numorous stories about your beloved reality (the space shuttle was mentioned twice). Get political about something that people give a damn about, but don't stop us from getting political about things that people don't.
TIA scares the shit out of me (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And what about.. (Score:4, Insightful)
You have to be a trusted individual. Trusted by whom?
I agree, they are more about analysis and synthesis. These initiatives strive to identify patterns that may indicate dangerous activity. The only problem is: before a crime has been committed, no crime has been committed. It's a problem that is firmly rooted in the nature of the universe.
These initiatives attempt to bypass the problem. They will try to do so by creating a large, steady stream of suspects, many of whom will spend long periods of time in detention for no real reason. If you doubt that this will happen, I suggest you look around. It is already happening, primarily to people of Middle Eastern descent.
You say, "We had the data." Who exactly had the data? Some people in government may have had suspicions or scattered facts, but there is a large leap between these and the knowledge of a plot. A system like TIA would not have connected those facts.
TIA was not proposed to assemble pre-determined government agency suspicions into a final, central bundle of crime knowledge. If it were, and if such a thing were possible (which I doubt without the aid of artificial intelligence), then it might have helped. But this is not the case. TIA was proposed to gather together all available commercial data on all people in order to perform blanket filtering and pattern-matching queries.
Re:speak for yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
or the poster is in another country. sure you seppos have 'freedom', but you can't buy fresh milk in the shops can ya now? that's the freedom you want to impose on the rest of the world? the freedom to work for minimum wage for some mega-corp? the freedom to join the army or die in a ghetto? heck a huge proportion of amerikans don't even have the right to vote! freedom? don't make me laugh. contrast to europe. there you are free. free to say what you like, free to smoke pot in public, free to move from one country to another without restriction (you yanks can't even go visit cuba without repercussions -still think you are free?).
the great shame of america is that you just can't see the bars of your iron cage. travel the world a bit and you'll see what real freedom is about. what you have is non-fattening-dairy-free artificial freedom substitute.
Re:Only in our time (Score:5, Insightful)
And besides which, there have been plenty of fervent capitalists who were opposed to personal freedoms -- the ones that they couldn't make money off of, and other people's that interfered with their own profits. See for example the attacks on unions in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Capitalism is not any good at protecting liberty, and that's not what it's for. It's a decently good economic system, but that doesn't make it the best possible or anything. Swearing allegience to capitalism is like swearing allegience to your car. It's just a tool, not an end all by itself.
Re:speak for yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
Copying CDs is not necessarily illegal. It depends on the circumstances. Your blanket statement is wrong.
Oh, you say, but this is infringing on my fair use rights! Guess what? You have no fair use rights. None. If you make certain uses of a work, those uses are defined by the law as being non-infringing. But that's an exception, not a right. If the copyright holder wants to use technological means to prevent you from exercising that exception, they're free to do so. And the law says you have to respect their wishes on that matter.
This is arguably a violation of the Copyright Clause, however since the DRM will effect public domain works. At the very least it is inappropriate for government to grant copyrights to such works, if not simply unconstitutional.
(and of course, the exercise of fair use, and use of public domain works is protected by the First Amendment -- again making government-endorsed as it were interference impermissible)
They don't give a damn about analog copies
Well, first, they used to. Second, it's likely, considering the analog hole and the possibility of a shift towards analog again, that they will eventually attack it again.
The culture of entitlement isn't satisfied with this arrangement, though. The culture of entitlement says that it's every American's God-given right to play CD's on his computer, and that it's every American's God-given right to make MP3's. The culture of entitlement can get stuffed.
Given that copyright is intended to promote public aims and goals, if there is a culture of entitlement, then it has a lot going for it, and its wishes should be seriously taken into consideration in crafting copyright law, if not followed wholeheartedly. Copyright is supposed to work for people, not artists. Thus 'get stuffed' is wrong. A better answer would be 'we'll change things so that you are entitled as much as you want and practically can be.'
Re:Speaking of A Brave New World. . . (Score:1, Insightful)
I think it goes a little deeper than that but you raise a good point.
The big problem with the government tracking people is that we don't have a benevolent government.
Right now they prosecute peaceful people with insane drug laws, and in some areas persecute people based on private sexual behavior.
I'd be a lot less worried about government invasions of privacy if I didn't have to fear they'd do something insane to hurt good people with the info.
Re:speak for yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
Fresh milk? You mean like the radiation enhanced crap that can sit on a room temperature shelf for weeks on end? Or the non pasteurized stuff straight from the cow? I've had it. Doesn't sound too fresh to me.
the freedom to work for minimum wage for some mega-corp?
No one I know has a minumum wage job. Or are you speaking of the 'freedom' to be unemployed? Check the unemployment figures.
the freedom to join the army
I'd rather have the freedom to choose whether I join the military (and I did), rather than be forced to, as is the case in a lot of countries.
a huge proportion of amerikans don't even have the right to vote!
And you know why? They voluntarily gave up their right to vote. Being convicted of a felony can strip you of your right to vote. Want to vote? Don't commit a felony. Simple as that.
Until a few short years ago (1971), 1/2 the population of Switzerland could not vote.
free to say what you like
Really...how is Europe so different from the US in this regard? Specifics please.
free to smoke pot in public
Just as not ALL countries in Europe turn a blind eye on smoking pot, not all States in the US toss you in jail for it either. Learn a little before you make such sweeping statements.
free to move from one country to another without restriction
How soon they forget. Just a few short years ago, people were being shot on sight just trying to go from one part of Germany to another. Freedom? Just a few short years ago, at every border crossing, you had to stop and show your 'papers'.
Freedom to travel to Cuba? Try going from Greece to Turkey. Drive around Albania at night. See how long you last.
Whose country has posted border guards in another country, ostensibly to stop illegal immigrants?
Freedom to travel, as it is in the states, is contingent upon certain rights and responsibilities. it's not quite as 'free' as you imply.
How about the 'freedom' to pay crushing taxes to give the slackers of society a free house. Or the 'freedom' to give to every family a monthly child benefit, regardless of need. I'd rather the money go to those who actually need it, not a government handout to a banker in London.
How about the 'freedom' to be forced to give your employees several weeks of vacation, regardless of merit? Yes, it is nice to have significant vacation time, but should I as an employer be forced to do that?
Should we have kept our military home during WWII? (and no, we did NOT win the war singlehandedly) You'd all be speaking German. The ones left alive, that is. Why did you beg for us to help out in Kosovo? Because you lacked the collective political will to do it yourselves.
I have traveled the world a bit. I dare say, more than you. Grow up a little, and get some time perspective. Stop watching the horrowshow on the TV. Learn what actually happens.
It's easy to say America sucks. When you're the big dog, everyone wants to take a shot at you. And no, it is not perfect.
Show me a place that is, though.
one funny way Barlow is right. (Score:3, Insightful)
If you have the Total Information Awareness project working, it might be relatively easy to find everyone who had bought more than a ton of fertilizer and 500 gallons of diesel in the last year, which would be a great way of spotting potential Tim McVeighs -- but it would also spot half the farmers and ranchers in America. But having spotted them, it couldn't toss them out until it'd exposed them to the next layer of search. .... which includes what I consider to be cultural crimes, like say marijuana smoking.
And there, in a nutshell, you have failure to predict and prevent. Who said Tim McVeigh smoked dope? Each "layer" of search is based on someone's idea of what a terroist is, not what one actually will be. What you end up with is a shit list, which may or may not contain a suspect. Before the event you don't know what to look for. Before September 11th, the purchase of a dozen box cutters had no predictive value.
God, things are screwed up. I'm reading Mother Jones and it makes sense while traditional media is clueless or conspiratory.
Re:speak for yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
These rights are only extended to citizens of the United States. Non-citizens are basically at the government's pleasure. There are no guarantees in the Constitution that apply to non-citizens.
Maybe you should explain that to Jose Padilla and why he is being held in violation of the 5th amendment. I'm not saying that's he's not a traitor or a terrorist, but he still is US citizen. For those of you who don't know who Jose Padilla is, you should see this blurb at the BBC [bbc.co.uk] or chargepadilla.org [chargepadilla.org] for more information.
Open your eyes a bit and take a look around before engaging in discourse, you'll find it most enlightening.
Oh the sweet irony...
leaders or no? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, I can't find the article, but I read an opposing viewpoint that promoted a leaderless movement. The biggest advantage was that "they can't stop your movement with one bullet." When I look at history and see how the deaths of MLK, the Kennedys, and more recently Rabin, destroyed a movement, it gives me pause. I don't know how a leaderless movement works, but it is an idea worthy of discussion.
Then again, maybe a leaderless movement can still have institutions.
Re:speak for yourself (Score:2, Insightful)
> True so far.
Be Careful. Just because someone is unscrupulous AND wants to copy CD's rather than pay for them does not mean that their copying is against the law. If their copying falls under the auspices of fair use it is permissable.
No matter how unscrupulous a person is, if they prefer to copy - for their own use - a CD they own, their actions are *for now* covered by fair use.
Lawyers = teh win (Score:2, Insightful)
It makes perfect sense when you think about who they go up against. Big media, big industry, big government, big money. Swift, underpaid non-profit lawyers have a far better chance in the courtroom than swift, underpaid lobbyists would have in Gucci Gulch.
In addition, being in San Francisco allows EFF to connect to that freaky activist hippy vibe community. Also helps that some of the world's largest/wealthiest/most-sympathetic-to-their-caus
Makes pretty goddamned good sense to be in San Francisco rather than Washington, if you ask me. They used to have a one-person-show liasing in DC for them after they moved to SF, but as far as I know, that "office" of the EFF is now gone. And as far as volunteers go, the EFF usually has more in-house than it knows what to do with. It'd be far better to give/raise money for the organization than volunteer your webmastering or Linux skizznils to the cause.