Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
typodupeerror delete not in
  • Preferences

Comments: 408 +-   Attorney Sues eBay over Negative Feedback on Saturday January 25 2003, @06:53PM

Posted by michael on Saturday January 25 2003, @06:53PM
from the thin-skinned dept.
court
government
humor
news
Mephie writes "MSNBC is running a story on an attorney who is suing ebay over negative feedback a seller left about him. It sounds like a classic case of buyer leaves negative feedback for seller; seller responds accordingly. The plaintiff claims he'd not be filing the suit if he didn't feel ebay's policy needs revision, stating 'They can control content and for them to fail to do so is unconscionable.' Yeah. That's great."
story

Related Stories

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.

Attorney Sues eBay over Negative Feedback 50 Comments More /

 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.

  • Better not say anything bad about him here... (Score:4, Funny)

    by MissMyNewton (521420) on Saturday January 25 2003, @06:55PM (#5159084)
    ...or he'll sue you too!

    ("sue you! sue everybody!" - Jerky Boys)
    • Don't mod the above post down... or you'll be next.

    • He's welcome to try (Score:5, Interesting)

      by msobkow (48369) on Sunday January 26 2003, @02:21AM (#5160641) Journal

      It's this kind of "lawsuit" that is turning the US into a joke and killing it's industry.

      I've said it before in this thread, and got modded as flamebait. Go ahead and mod me down again. Karma is useless, and I don't give a rat's fat ass whether I offend the so-called "lawyer" involved.

      Any societal leech who thinks this kind of lawsuit deserves anything but being laughed out of court with court costs levied against the suitor deserves to suffer the economic damages the US is working it's way up to.

      Here's one finger on high for the lawyer who initiated this case. Another for those who were offended that I challenge the useless sack of flesh to try such a lawsuit outside the US. And a third for anyone stupid enough to think this is an anti-American rant. And a pair for anyone else wasting society's time through such frivolous self-serving bullshit lawsuits.

  • let this serve as notice... (Score:5, Funny)

    by macsox (236590) on Saturday January 25 2003, @06:57PM (#5159096) Journal
    i am issuing a subpoena to all reader to be deposed in my action against CmdrTaco, et al., for damage done to my technological reputation by poor or uninformed moderation of my comments.

    it is clear that the macintosh operating system is indeed superior, indicating that a recent 'troll' moderation was slanderous, and it is too funny to make that beowulf cluster joke -- another indication of improper and damaging moderation.

    my lawyers will be in touch.

  • The comments... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 25 2003, @06:59PM (#5159107)
    ...are the best part about eBay's system. It doesn't always work, but it seems that the honest half of the honest/dishonest feedback ratio is much higher than in normal venues.

  • Horray! Lawsuit time! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gatesh8r (182908) on Saturday January 25 2003, @06:59PM (#5159110)
    "I was selling various pieces of crap, er... 'Fine Wares' and I got negative feedback from one of the sucke... er, 'buyers', and he's lying to destroy my image! SUE! SUE! SUE!"


    C'mon, you idiot. Not everyone is going to be pleased with your business, and eBay can't say "Only say positive things about the buyer, even if they screwed you over!" People have opinions, and eBay allows you to voice them on the buyer. eBay isn't going to change their policy now over something that has made them sucessful. Deal with it; not everyone's going to distrust you if you manage to keep your positive feedback up.

    • Re:Horray! Lawsuit time! (Score:5, Informative)

      by TCaM (308943) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:12PM (#5159193) Homepage
      While the line may appear to be fine at times, there is a difference between libel and a simple statement of fact. If you are ripped off by someone on ebay simply document it as much as is possible. Then condense this factual information into your feedback. When you use the feedback as a tool to make statements about someone that are not provable or are a personal attack then you are veering into the area of libel or slander.

      • Re:Has anyone read the article? (Score:4, Informative)

        by unitron (5733) on Sunday January 26 2003, @02:11AM (#5160616) Homepage Journal
        Re-read that article some more (it is rather confusingly worded). Grace bought stuff from Neeley, then posted negative feedback about Neeley. Neeley then replied to the negative feedback with his own harsh words. We don't know for sure whether the buyer's complaints were true or not, and that has a lot to do with whether the buyer slandered the seller or the seller slandered the buyer. Or maybe being in print makes it libel instead of slander.

        Besides, the important part is the way the buyer has tried to rig the suit to get the government of California on his side:

        The lawsuit also demands that buyers and sellers, who use aliases in eBay transactions, register their screen names with the state of California as fictitious business names, and that eBay be forced to collect state sales tax.

        In other words, if that provision of the suit had already been in effect, when I bought that pair of speakers from somebody who turned out to live here in the same county in North Carolina, California would have gotten some of the money even though North Carolina didn't collect any sales tax on the deal. Then again, if you have to register with the state of California just to buy something off of eBay, it might be a good time to unload your eBay stock.

  • Suit asks for filters (Score:5, Insightful)

    by instantkarma1 (234104) on Saturday January 25 2003, @06:59PM (#5159112)
    Although libel is obviously not protected under "freedom of speech", the banning of certain words (such as fraud, liar, cheater, scam artist, con man) as proposed by this lawsuit, certainly lends itself to a slippery slope.

    How can individual words represent libel out of context? Who is the judge of this libel-ous words? Where does it stop?
    • The suit may not, however, also be calling for bans on words such as l1ar, ch3ater, 5cam art1st, c0n man, etc.

      The words themselves may not be libellous, but when they're put into feedback regarding a particular user, the whole statement probably is libellous. IMHO, IANAL, RTFM, RSVP, RSPCA

  • Why is this in the lawsuit? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by happyhippy (526970) on Saturday January 25 2003, @06:59PM (#5159113)
    "The lawsuit also demands that buyers and sellers, who use aliases in eBay transactions, register their screen names with the state of California as fictitious business names, and that eBay be forced to collect state sales tax."

    Is this an underhanded way of getting ebay to pay tax? And the rest of it a smoke screen?

    • Re:Why is this in the lawsuit? (Score:5, Informative)

      by raju1kabir (251972) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:20PM (#5159243) Homepage
      "The lawsuit also demands that buyers and sellers, who use aliases in eBay transactions, register their screen names with the state of California as fictitious business names, and that eBay be forced to collect state sales tax." Is this an underhanded way of getting ebay to pay tax? And the rest of it a smoke screen?

      Nope, exactly the opposite.

      The sales tax thing is a way of putting pressure on eBay to settle; this is a classic crooked lawyer blackmail tactic (go ahead and sue me, Grace; you're a disgrace to the profession and this is the sort of barratry that would see its perpetrator disbarred in more genteel times). It's potentially far more costly to eBay than any judgment they could reasonably expect to pay for the bogus libel claim. eBay throws him a bone, he stops making noise about the sales tax, everyone signs the papers and goes home.

      • That's the problem. EBay shouldn't be the one to hold the liability for the customer's libel (if it is such). This is an area where libel law falls down in the Internet age. Historically, the owner of the printing press could be held liable for libel. However, (as Slashdot's little reminders constantly tell us), in an era when every post is its own little printing press, the Web site owner should not be held liable for the words of the customers.

        I have no problem with the feedback-leaver being sued for libel. However, holding EBay liable for its users' libel isn't the way things should work. The law must adjust to the new medium.

  • He's right that it needs revision (Score:5, Interesting)

    by York the Mysterious (556824) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:00PM (#5159114) Homepage
    Last summer I stopped selling on eBay. I had been selling since Nov of 97 to make a few bucks on the side. I'd probably sold 2000-3000 items and 99% of the transactions went perfectly. Over that summer I had a huge number of people leaving me feedback for totally bogus reasons. People would pay with a money order with no return address and no note of what it was for even though I e-mail out detailed instructions. When I didn't mail the item (since I didn't know what the payment was for) they would just leave negative feedback without e-mailing me first. I would also get negative feedback from people a week after they made payments. They claimed I had failed to ship items even though these people were paying for parcel post mailing which takes up to 2 week sometimes. I think that there is a new wave of people on eBay that forget they are dealing with people and not businesses. Remember catalogs quote 4-6 weeks. Dont expect a week off ebay. If you need it the next day go to CompUSA or Fry's and pay full price. If you dont want to pay full price dont expect lightning fast delivery and perfect items. They're on eBay for a reason.

    • Re:He's right that it needs revision (Score:5, Interesting)

      by kmellis (442405) <kmellis@io.com> on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:20PM (#5159241) Homepage
      Tim,

      Aside from the fact that your customers were acting stupidly, you undermine the main point of your post:

      I think that there is a new wave of people on eBay that forget they are dealing with people and not businesses.
      ...with these two phrases at the beginning:
      ...to make a few bucks on the side. I'd probably sold 2000-3000 items...
      Dude, you were a business, not a person. You weren't someone selling a few knick-knacks they found in their attic.

    • What gall! (Score:4, Interesting)

      by philosophyandrew (598363) on Saturday January 25 2003, @08:19PM (#5159496)
      Let me get this straight -- it is Ebay's fault that a seller can't keep straight what he has sold and ends up not being able to associate payments with auction. And what gall: to complain about buyers who have the termerity to give negative feedback when the item they paid for never arrived!
    • No kidding. I had an auction for some items my company asked me to sell, so I placed a large Dutch Auction. Unfortunately, the company took just over half the items out of the auction (*sigh*). Bidding was starting to pick up and I didn't know what to do -- I had enough product to cover the existing bids but didn't have the quantity stated in the auction any longer. I checked with eBay and realised I needed to cancel the auction. My first cancellation.

      A number of people contacted me and inquired what had happened. Most asked if they could still get the item. I told them I would honor the opening bid price (which was realistically what the winners would have paid, anyway, due to the large number of items in the Dutch Auction). Almost all of these people bought the item.

      Then there was one guy who wrote to me and said: "This is bullshit! I will have you banned from eBay." I wrote back and explained what had happened and that I was not B.S.'ing but rather trying to be honest by cancelling the auction in accordance with eBay policies. I also told him that every other inquiry I received showed decorum and respect and I had worked out a way to get the product at the low price that was bid to those who asked. He responded, "Sorry, I didn't know the policy. new to ebay." I wrote back and told him to check his bleeping attitude and, no, I would not be working out a way to help him.

      People are behind the "screen names." Learn it, live it.

      • Re:He's right that it needs revision (Score:5, Insightful)

        by karnal (22275) on Saturday January 25 2003, @11:26PM (#5160127)
        To be honest, though, when I buy things on e-bay, I expect feedback after the seller RECEIVES PAYMENT. At that point, my end of the transaction is complete, and the seller should have already updated my feedback profile accordingly.

        Anyone who waits for the buyer to leave feedback (regardless of what that feedback is) is just waiting to ding the buyer if said buyer is unsatisfied.....

  • they don't censor (Score:4, Interesting)

    by diamond0 (456988) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:01PM (#5159122)
    eBay doesn't censor user feedback, so wouldn't they be considered "common carrier" and therefore immune from liability for libel?

  • New News article (Score:4, Funny)

    by MimsyBoro (613203) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:02PM (#5159129) Journal
    ISRAEL, Jan. 24 An Israeli programmer who says he was libeled in Slashdot Inc.'s "comments" section of its Web site has sued the online Geek News site for refusing to remove statements he says damaged his Karma. Analysts say the case, sparked by an online comment about Linux, cuts to the heart of what makes slashdot work: the power of moderators and meta-moderators to keep an eye on each other.
    In his lawsuit, MimsyBoro demands 2.5 million Karma points in punitive damages from Slashdot and [(-5) Redundant] from Neeley. A spokesman for Slashdot said the company would not comment on pending litigation.

  • Well one things for sure (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:04PM (#5159139)
    In soviet russia the lawyer sues,...um, well I guess thats just in the US.

  • Please... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Heem (448667) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:04PM (#5159141) Homepage Journal
    According to the article...

    "alleging in the online forum that the magazines he bought had arrived late and in a worse condition than advertised"

    It's not like he said anything all that bad - They probably did arrive late, which could be blamed on the shipping company or any other factor, And the part about them being in worse condition then advertised was also probably true, but that is open to interpretation.

    Why do people have to be such whining little babies these days? so someone left you bad feedback, which, was more then likely true. EBay gives you a chance to publicly reply to feedback - simply reply there stating your own side of the story and leave it at that. If a user has to worry about being dragged into court for leaving negative feedback, then nobody is going to leave feedback and the system is going to be ruined.

    And where does he get these figures?

    "In his lawsuit, Grace demands $2.5 million in punitive damages from eBay and $100,000 from Neeley."
    I'd like to see him prove that one bad feedback is going to cost him that much.

    • Re:Please... (Score:3, Informative)

      by cduffy (652)
      What he started the lawsuit over was the fellow who sold him the magazines (yes, probably late and in worse condition) left retaliatory feedback calling him dishonest, saying he should be banned from ebay, and otherwise making him out to be a Very Bad Person to do business with simply because he called the magazines late and in worse condition.

      Then when ebay refused to remove the seller's retaliatory feedback, all this happened. Yes, the lawyer's making a bigger deal out of this than he should -- but the seller is scum for calling him a con artist (and such) just because he said in feedback that the magazines were late.

    • Why do people have to be such whining little babies these days?

      Well, duh. He's a laywer.

      "In his lawsuit, Grace demands $2.5 million in punitive damages from eBay and $100,000 from Neeley."
      I'd like to see him prove that one bad feedback is going to cost him that much.

      Again, lawyer.

      Christ, if I brought lawsuits against everyone who ever said a negative thing about me I'd --

      wait a minute! I'd be filthy rich!

      I'll sue you!

      I'll sue you all!

      I'll sue you all to hell!

      Bwahahahahahahahhahaahaha!

  • Feedback headaches (Score:5, Interesting)

    by King_TJ (85913) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:04PM (#5159143) Homepage Journal
    Actually, I figured it was only a matter of time before this happened. I believe eBay does caution you to state your complaints concisely and accurately, without letting it reflect negatively on the individual themself. (I don't recall the exact wording, but they do try to warn you about it right before you leave a feedback comment.)

    I can see how it could be taken as libel/slander if a negative comment was left in a certain manner.

    Generaly, it's been my observation that the feedback feature is very useful, but needs to be taken with a few grains of salt, too. I know I've had times where I wanted to warn others of a problem with a produce being sold, but didn't want to completely "slam" the seller - so I left neutral feedback. Sometimes, this seems to anger the sellers so they retaliate by leaving me negative feedback for no good reason.

    (EG. I recently bought 4 sticks of memory for a PowerMac 7600. The eBay seller said the memory being sold would work in a 7500, 7600, or several other Mac models. When the RAM arrived, it was not the right type for my 7600. I was able to get an RMA for a quick refund of my money (good!), but the inflated shipping price I initially paid was *not* refunded. In essence, I was out over $20 because of an incorrect statement on the auction listing.) I left a neutral feedback to warn others that it didn't really work in 7600's - and the seller left me negative feedback saying "Don't use feedback for this! Use our RMA process." (Duh!)

  • Excuse me? (Score:5, Funny)

    by analog_line (465182) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:05PM (#5159150)
    Although eBay has successfully fended off similar suits, an erosion of the feedback system's credibility could be devastating, said Rashtchy.

    Excuse me? This is eBay we're talking about here, right? You mean the feedback system actually has credibility? Did I wake up on an alternate Earth?

  • What an administrative nightmare (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Occam's Hammer (463213) <occam444-slashdot@yahoo.com> on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:06PM (#5159162)
    If Ebay was somehow responsible for every feedback left on their site, they would shut down rather quickly. Fortunately these kinds of lawsuits are being thrown out of court at a pretty good pace (most recently Obesity v. McDonalds)

    Ebay clearly states: "WARNING: Once placed, comments cannot be retracted. If you later change your mind about someone, you may leave a follow-up comment to explain the misunderstanding. See the Feedback Forum for an explanation about how your comments affect a user's feedback rating.... eBay cannot remove a comment once it is submitted, nor edit a user's feedback profile. For this reason, we encourage you to contact your trading partner directly by email or by telephone before leaving a negative feedback comment."

    The purpose of the ebay feedback system it to create social governance. If you have one or two negative feedbacks out of a hundred or so, I will still buy from or sell to you. If, however, you have a 50% negative feedback I will not. That is the point.

  • Does anyone know his EBAY ID? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Proudrooster (580120) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:10PM (#5159181) Homepage
    Does anyone know this loser's EBAY ID or email address? I would like to give this guy some direct negative feedback. In case you didn't read the article, not only is he whining about his (allegedly deserved) "negative feedback" but

    The lawsuit also demands that buyers and sellers, who use aliases in eBay transactions, register their screen names with the state of California as fictitious business names, and that eBay be forced to collect state sales tax.

    So not only does he want better EBAY Karma, but he wants to try and destroy EBAY via judicial legislation. I don't think the court has the power to make every Ebay'er in California register, but you never know how judges will interpret the law in these uncertain times.

    Ebay is the world's largest yard sale and should remain sales tax free!

  • Read the last P (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mlknowle (175506) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:11PM (#5159191) Homepage Journal
    Obviously, the guy is a whiner... but the last paragraph of the MSNBC article is interesting:

    " The lawsuit also demands that buyers and sellers, who use aliases in eBay transactions, register their screen names with the state of California as fictitious business names, and that eBay be forced to collect state sales tax."

    This seems to have little to do with his complaint; but making everyone register with the state Secretary of State would be a big deal! So your name would be Your Name, d.b.a (doing buisines as...) screename. Christ, what a mess... Can someone who is a Calfornian and or a lawyer comment on paying sales tax on USED items? I know that here in RI, sales tax is only on (some) new sales - used goods (and many new goods) are exemt.

  • Dear Internet, (Score:3, Funny)

    by leerpm (570963) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:18PM (#5159233)
    I am suing you for the slanderous use of my name when exploding in emotion while experiencing blue screens of death, spam from Alan Rasky, and those lovely pop-up ads :)
    Love,

    God

  • I'm suing /. !! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Metallic Matty (579124) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:21PM (#5159252)
    Clearly, the anonymous cowards who troll me should be handled accordingly by slashdot. I am offended to receive their negative feedback; and I hold slashdot fully responsible! /end insanity

  • $20 feedback removal (Score:5, Informative)

    by EABinGA (253382) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:31PM (#5159307)
    From: Squaretrade [squaretrade.com]

    You can have your negative feedback removed as part of an arbitration process, IF both parties agree and pay $20.

    Q. What circumstances will eBay will consider removing Feedback?

    A. In limited situations eBay may remove feedback without a ruling or settlement agreement from SquareTrade. See eBay's Feedback Removal Policy for more information.

    eBay will remove feedback after filing a case with SquareTrade in two situations.

    1) Feedback can be removed after you file a case with SquareTrade and there is no response to your case filing if:

    -At least 14 days have passed since you filed your case;
    -The feedback was left less than 90 days prior to this case filing;
    -All necessary case notices were sent to the respondent and SquareTrade received no response either online or by email;
    -Filer used the same item # and eBay IDs as recorded in the feedback record (note that a separate case must be filed for each item #); and
    -The item bought or sold must not violate the marketplace policy.

    2) Feedback can be removed after you file a case with SquareTrade and receive a response from the other party if:

    -You have obtained the help of a SquareTrade Mediator;
    -Both parties agree to the removal in a Settlement Agreement;
    -The item bought or sold must not violate eBay marketplace policy; and
    -All other terms of the mediated settlement have been completed.

    {Note: there is no time limit to resolving problems - feedback can be removed through mediation even if more than 90 days has passed.
  • 6 months ago I would have said this guy is a crackpot like everyone else on the forum -- but then a complete idiot left me negative feedback on my 200th or so sale on eBay -- the only neg I've ever gotten.

    This is what happened: Newbie buyer provides mailing address (this is for a Half.com transaction BTW -- where Half is a huge middleman in the operation) of something like 100 North St., with ZIP code, etc. I ship the item Media Mail as specified... 2 weeks later it comes back to me No Such Address. I file a trouble report with Half.com. Hear nothing. File two more. Hear nothing. Eventually after 3 weeks have passed, the newbie tracks me down and angrily wants to know where his package is. I tell him what happened, and by this time I've already fully refunded his money. He is completely oblivious to what's going on -- does not believe I shipped the package (I even scanned the envelope and forwarded the original order with his bogus address -- "That's not my address!" he tells me...) All to no avail. He dings me with a negative feedback claiming I didn't ship the item.

    Eventually I take this up with eBay but apparently the guy has been such a nuisance his account has been deleted. They won't do a thing about it, even though a dozen emails explain the situation... and after several weeks even the buyer says he FINALLY understands what happened and will remove the negative feedback. Alas, he's been deleted, so he can't remove it.

    I sell a lot of junk on Half and eBay and though I have a 240something rating, there are some buyers who simply will not bid if you have a single negative rating. I can certainly understand that, and I may or may not take the time to dig down as to why negative points were received. I don't blame the idiot for giving me the negative point -- I blame eBay for not employing common sense in removing it.

    The lawsuit is right in that the policy is totally unworkable and is abused frequently. His call for fictitious business names and tax collecting might be a bit much, and in the end I doubt this guy will win his case. What will have far more effect is when a similar case becomes a class action lawsuit -- and then eBay might finally realize how rife the system is with abuse.

  • Troll sues Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)

    by Adam9 (93947) on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:47PM (#5159376) Journal
    Breaking news: After an attorney won a lawsuit over Ebay for receiving negative feedback, a well-known goatse.cx troll was awarded 20 karma by the district court after winning a lawsuit placed against Slashdot (OSDN). The troll claims that the ASCII art of the main picture on goatse.cx was "Interesting" and "Funny."

    CmdrTaco recently stated that Slashdot is already planning for an appeal.

  • Does this mean... (Score:5, Funny)

    by nochops (522181) on Saturday January 25 2003, @08:09PM (#5159459)
    Does this mean that I can start suing the moderators who mod me down as "Flamebait" or "Troll"?

  • if he wins (Score:5, Funny)

    by 2MuchC0ffeeMan (201987) on Saturday January 25 2003, @08:30PM (#5159539) Homepage
    if he wins, i'm gonna sue everyone on every internet forum who has ever flamed me.... who's his attorney again?

  • It's the apocryphal .com step 3! At last! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Rogerborg (306625) on Saturday January 25 2003, @08:39PM (#5159566) Homepage
    1. Build up a reputation on eBay selling any old junk.
    2. Stop delivering and wait for a negative feedback.
    3. Sue eBay for $2.5 million
    4. Profit!

    All these years, I've wondered what step 3 could be. I should have realised that the only people that every profited from the .com boom were lawyers. We humans can learn much by observing their strange behaviour.

  • Judge's decision (Score:5, Funny)

    by PanBanger (465405) on Saturday January 25 2003, @08:42PM (#5159576)
    Trial was great! Would preside over again! A++++!!

  • I just had negative feedback removed. (Score:5, Informative)

    by rtphokie (518490) on Saturday January 25 2003, @10:56PM (#5160056)
    I put a WiFi access point I was no longer using up on eBay, within hours someone had clicked on "buy it now". I emailed the guy a bunch of times but he never responded. After 7 day's I'd had enough so I left him negative feedback, within minutes he'd retaliated leaving me negative feedback.

    Looking at this clown's feedback, this looked like this was how he got his jollies. Usually used "buy it now" so that the seller wouldn't have a chance to remove the bid.

    So I filled a non-paying bidder complaint, and a request to have the feedback removed. Ebay not only removed the feedback (mine and his), they suspended the idiot's account, and refunded the fees on the auction, all within 36 hours of my complaint. Sure Ebay has a few hoops to jump through but they dont make it needlessly hard. If this lawyer really thought the feedback was wrong and it was going to cause him harm he should have gone through things the right way and not run off to court. Heck he could have hired an arbitrator for $20 and gotten it removed.

  • eBay feedback system sucks anyhow (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Arethan (223197) on Saturday January 25 2003, @10:58PM (#5160063) Journal
    Honestly, I'm not surprised by this. eBay has had a poorly implemented feedback system for quite a while now. The main problem with feedback, is that the other guy gets to see the feedback you left right away. This causes 2 problems.

    Firstly, no one wants to be the first to leave feedback, since they are then helpless to react if they leave nice feedback and get bad feedback in return. Secondly, the idea that you can retaliate to the feedback you were given is completely fucked.

    The best way to fix eBay's feedback system is to make a transaction's feedback completely invisible until the transaction is fully completed. That means that you don't get to see what feedback the other guy is leaving you until you've BOTH left feedback. This keeps everyone honest. If the deal goes sour in one person's eyes, then it will be reflected appropriately.

    The biggest drawback to this system is the ability to stall feedback from showing. By never leavnig feedback, you could effectively keep a transaction in limbo. Thus, if you knew you fucked the other guy over, you could easily just never leave feedback and your rating would be unaffected. The solution to this is to enforce a timelimit on feedback. Once the other person leaves feedback, you have 30 days to leave feedback of your own. If you let the time limit pass, then you are assumed to have left neutral feedback, and a nice generic comment. Something like "".

    Anyways, until eBay fixes this, I pretty much ignore the raw numbers that feedback provides. The aggregate data is completely useless. *shrug* Maybe they'll catch a clue and fix it one day.

  • Found his eBay ID (Score:4, Informative)

    by topher_k (622399) <.moc.gnitsrek. .ta. .rehpot.> on Sunday January 26 2003, @12:04AM (#5160227) Homepage

    This guy (Roger, not Robert, by the way) uses the ID rgrace@metnews.com.

    You can view his feedback profile at http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPI Command=ViewFeedback&userid=rgrace%40metnews.com&i tems=25

  • The suit asks a judge to force the cyber-auctioneer to filter words like "fraud, liar, cheater, scam artist, con man" from the site...

    That's amusing. A lawyer demanding that Ebay filter all words that most people use when describing lawyers.

    Those are exactly the words my father used when his attorney charged him $600 for a three-minute phone call that blew the $25,000 deal my father was negotiating.

  • EBay -- having their cake and eating it too? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by swb (14022) <mobocracy@gmail.com> on Sunday January 26 2003, @10:18AM (#5161662)
    I wonder if maybe EBay isn't just interested in having their cake and eating it too. One of the reasons Ebay is so monumentally successful as a business is that they have all the margin and none of the responsibility. Get ripped off? Not our problem. Get untrue feedback? Not our problem. Not our problem. Not our problem. We didn't get our cut of your sale? Now its our problem, and our only problem.

    I've bought only 2-3 things off of Ebay, primarily because I don't want to get ripped off and I'm a little disgusted with their willingness to create a marketplace but not enforce any rules of fairness or any kind of justice.

    I'm not naive -- I know that the more they get involved in sales, the less profitable it is for them. But because their sole interest is making a percentage off of sellers they seem to have every incentive to just generate sales of any kind, regardless of the integrity of the sale.

    I'd have more faith in Ebay if they didn't just create a market, but created a market that did more than just pay lip service to honesty and justice.

    • Re:I agree with this (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 25 2003, @07:21PM (#5159248)
      Personally I find people take online opinions too lightly

      You are right. Where were our manners. The opinions of the goatse man and all the hot grits, natalie portman, etc trolls were overlooked. We appologize as a community. Now get a fuckin clue Stan. If you base your choice of lawyers on his e-bay feedback, I'm sure you choose your doctor on what he's ranked at Yahoogames. I hear DocJones395842 is the man at Hearts.

    • Re:I DO NOT agree with this (Score:4, Insightful)

      by wesmo (181075) on Saturday January 25 2003, @08:09PM (#5159461)
      This is totally bogus, and you know it. Accounts on ebay are simply that: an account. There is nothing that says: use your real name or your real business name (mind you, most selling on there (right now) is mostly individuals).

      If some company is relying on feedback on ebay for your employment, then it isn't a place anyone should be working at. Anyhow, the point is that feedback on ebay should be held within the context of ebay, not towards anything else. It is an ebay transaction, and nothing more: not personal, not political, and not anything astrological!

      In the broader scope, on-line slander is one thing. There is definitely a line, but people have a right to their opinions about a person, place, or thing. Not everyone will like you, and that is one guarantee in life. If they put it in print, so be it.

      Anyhow, back to the topic at hand, feedback is feedback. If you get negative feedback, you have the option to respond, permanantly, to it. When future buyers investigate your feedback, they see the negative and neutral (does anyone leave neurtral?!) comments and your responses.

      It is the truth about the transaction! Why hide it? It is up to the future buyer to weigh your overall record and your response to the negative feedback before they decide to trust you with regards to a purchase.

      For example, if I buy from someone, I check their feedback. Mentally, I make a couple of rules:
      o Buying online from some joe schmoe out there is risky. I don't care who it is or via what forum (ebay, newsgroups, etc), you still have no idea who they are.
      o No one describes their product as "slightly worn" or "damaged piece of crap I want to unload." Everyone describes their items as being "MINT" or "Nearly MINT" or "slightly used". Consider reality when purchasing a product.
      o People with no feedback, sunglasses next to their name, or very very little feedback should be dealt with gingerly as they have a limited record of transactions.
      o People with a LOT of feedback (doesn't matter if it is 50 or 50000) can be trusted only slightly more than those with little or no feedback.

      With those rules in place, I always look at the feedback. Negative feedback from one person doesn't usually mean crap. There are a whole mess of people out there with chips on their shoulders, and they are usually trying to get something for nothing. However, the feedback record will show trends.

      For example, over Christmas, how many people were selling those ZipZap knock-off cars? And how many of them were so overwhelmed with sales that they couldnt keep up, and hence, people left them negative feedback? I would see that and skip right past them because it would show that they could not handle the intense load, but otherwise were good sellers.

      YOU need to evaluate the person you are purchasing from. Experience in BUYING as well as SELLING helps make sense of it all.

      Don't let one bad apple (or feedback) spoil the whole bunch.

    • I don't (Score:4, Interesting)

      by PotatoHead (12771) <doug AT opengeek DOT org> on Saturday January 25 2003, @08:18PM (#5159495) Homepage Journal
      So rather than change the entire Internet, why not consider carefully what you do online. We spend our young lives dealing with conflict resolution only to get online and regress back to age two. Sheesh, why do people do this?

      This guy is acting the fool. Before ebay, nobody heard of him and whatever reputation he has was of little consequence to anyone but the locals in his area.

      After the ebay transaction, a few more people get to know him but are very likely not to care. Sure you can bring up the google thing, but I think that is far less important than this guy makes it out to be. So, he quits ebay, or changes id, or some combination of the two along with a short explanation about his side of the story. Wait a while and it all goes away.

      After seeing this would you seriously consider that minor exchange to be an issue? I would not because I understand how the Internet works and would consider the matter accordingly like any sane adult would.

      Now he files suit and makes the front page of /. Sure, this is a smart move because now everyone knows and will pass judgement far more easily. Kind of hard to undo that one now isn't it?

      Would you hire him now?

      It is not reasonable to change the workings of the Internet just to make it easier for people like this to exist online because they are the problem, not the structure of the Internet.

      Put another way, this is a people problem, not an Internet problem. When you have large groups interacting this will happen and everyone knows it.

      This guy should have considered some advice before doing anything rash over something as minor as an ebay negative feedback. If he had, the obvious consequences would likely have resulted in some other course of action than this lawsuit...

Search
Stamp out philately.

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2010 Geeknet, Inc.