Hiding Your Choices And Saying You Made Them

An anonymous reader writes "Lawmeme's Paul Szynol describes how during installation RealPlayer hides checkboxes that elect that the user receives spam, making it look like the user chose to make the selections when in fact he probably just didn't see the options. "This is essentially a cheap and dirty marketing tactic which creates an illusion of informed acceptance by the user where no such acceptance really exists." Other people have posted similar examples from other applications. Is this illegal, or just annoying?"

Cyber-fine print

[stratjakt]

I doubt it's illegal so long as the information is present and available if you look for it.

I dont think it has to be obvious.

Probably falls into same field as minimum textsize

[TibbonZero]

While I don't know the laws on minimum text size, I am sure that a company cannot make you sign something in .001pt Times New Roman. This is probably very illegal for them to do, and they will probably get away with it...

No kidding

[kableh]

This has always bugged me about Real Player. Their newest player installs a lame little executable, that isn't easy to get rid of, that starts up their little message center in the system tray. It was bad enough with their old version which loaded RealPlayer every time you booted, but at least you could turn it off.

These days, if it is encoded in Real it isn't worth my time to watch. I make sure everyone I know is aware of this too.

If you're stupid enough to use your real address..

[Flounder]

then you deserve to get spam. That's what Hotmail is for. Gives you a free address that you don't care about, and soaks up bandwidth that Microsoft has to pay for. It's a win-win.

Default options

[Junior J. Junior III]

Maybe software should come completely unconfigured, with all options set to some kind of null value. It'd be a lot less user-friendly that way, but in another respect it'd at least be user-respectful.

I can't stand Real media, and haven't had their player installed on my systems for a few years now. Unfortunately, it means I have to pass on a lot of content that is only available in that format -- including NPR archive broadcasts, of all things. It's particularly galling that *public* funded radio archives are made available to the public in a format that is not Free.

Why can't websites publish streaming video in some kind of open format that doesn't suck? What's wrong with ogg or mpeg?

Already knew that.

[da3dAlus]

I noticed that quite a while back when I installed RealPlayer. I say it's annoying just because I have to remember to disable those checkboxes. I also say it's gotta hurt them, because it makes me place my feelings about Real (the company) at a very low level. I don't think it's illegal, and I know they're out to make money like everyone else. However, I say don't screw over your customers, and they'll come back. Piss them off, and you will certainly regret it later. And yes, I know the RealPlayer I download is the free version, and I'm not technically a customer, but if they pull that stuff with me on the free products, I can only imaging the "features" they'll put in the big version I pay for. Again, my opinion of them is quite low because of their tactics.

Re:spam account

[squarefish]

This is where your email spam account comes into play.

Actually you don't even need to use your spam account for the realplayer setup- it doesn't authenticate the address for you to use the player.
Mine currently set for '[e-mail]'

Re:And?

[bafu]

I scroll down to all the hidden items in the install and uncheck everything, etc., etc., but yeah, they don't get a real email address from me, either. Other than dusting off and nuking them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

What's more annoying to me is the way that RealOne on my Windows box kept clamoring for attention after awhile (telling me I have "a message", etc.). I turned off everything I could find to turn off and it kept it up. Finally I turned off RealOne and went back to rp8. If that option ever becomes unusable, I'll just do without entirely. I don't know what their business model is, but the more it involves annoying me, the less I am inclined to keep it around...

Quick and Dirty Intro to US Law.

[CrazyDuke]

"Is this illegal, or just annoying?"

Companies screwing people == legal.

People screwing companies == illegal.

People get pissed at companies screwing them == lay off 20,000 peons, do nothing to the higher ups that caused the problem.

Wealth, power, and might = right.
Poor, intelligence, and reason = wrong.

Want proof? Find it yourself. These are my opinions.

Re:Illegal?

[John Hasler]

Which may very well make the clauses on the second page unenforcible.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

The acceptance-by-omission deception goes further than that. Hotmail and yahoo both have neat tidy pages that allow you to opt-out of receiving mailings from them, however once that big feel good is over and dealth with, they will reveal to advertisers any email address you email to without mentioning that they do. Why? because you didn't tell them not to - it's not a current Real Big Concern so it's not in your mind when you accept their conditions.

Years back there were no options to 'opt out' of spam, simply because it wasn't a current concern - you signed up for an email address, you expected to get nothing but an email address and the thought wasn't on your mind that the company would do more deception.

Outlining a few things they won't do only leads these big uglies to continue inventing things they WILL do to make money from you.

EULA Rating Service

[SlipJig]

I think the problems here are that:

1) It's a PITA to read through all the legalese in a typical EULA, and this discourages people from doing so;

2) Most users aren't lawyers, and many probably don't trust their own judgment when it comes to evaluating what the real-world effects of an EULA are.

There seems to be an opportunity here. I'd like to see an organization that reviews the EULA's for widespread software titles, and gives them a simple rating according to useful criteria. The rating process could be done by a panel of lawyers or other informed independent individuals. I might even subscribe to such a service, if it were painless to quickly check the rating and block the installation of poorly-rated software.

Re:Illegal?

[AKnightCowboy]

In a physical world example it would be like giving me a contract to sign but removing several pages from it.

But the checkboxes ARE there. He just didn't bother scrolling down far enough to see them that they were checked. They weren't missing or hidden or anything. Sure, it's sleazy but we all know Real is a sleazy company. When I have to uncheck fifteen thousand options to NOT get a shitload of spam from them it should tell you something about the company. Honestly though, does anyone actually put their REAL e-mail address on any of these applications anymore? [e-mail] must get a shitload of my spam.

You gave your address. Duh!

[rdmiller3]

They don't need your permission in a check-box if you're already giving them your e-mail address during the regsitration. They can just put a clause in the license agreement that says you agree to receive solicitations from them. You probably didn't bother to read it anyway.

(My favorite part of most EULAs is how they say, "User agrees to abide by any future changes Company may make to this agreement." How legal can that be?!?)

Technically, they're being "nice" by making it possible for you to un-check the box at all.

It's easier just to give a fake address like other posters have suggested. We've been using that trick ever since Radio Shack started asking for your home phone number.

-Rick

Switched

[Anonymous Coward]

I noticed this a long time ago and thought it was a dirty trick. In fact i was so pissed they would attempt to sneak this by me I uninstalled all of Real's products and now use M$ Media player for everything. At least M$ likes to admit they are going to screw me in the EULA

Legal, but annoying...

[robyn217]

Opt-out marketing is about as annoying of a tactic as a company can employ. They may get the extra eyeballs, or clickthroughs, for some period of time--but they're creating ill-will and hostility toward the brand.

Damaging the brand may not be worth the short-term payoff, and may have devasting long-term effects. Doesn't seem worth it to me... especially not for a company like Real.

stupid

[pummer]

first of all, if you don't scroll through all the choices, that's your fault, and if you don't use a fake email, that too is your fault. Granted, RealPlayer's policy is immoral, but what else can you expect from companies nowadays?

There really is an easy fix to this Real problem..

[zaren]

don't install the fscking software!

After reading about the license agreement in the last batch of betas, I vowed that there will NEVER EVER AGAIN be a new(!) version of RealPlayer that I install by hand on ANY of my computers, or ANY computer that I have a hand in for installing software.

The only content online that this really costs me is the NPR archives and the Dr. Who stuff at the BBC. Should I truly desire to view / hear this content, I fire up an old version of the player that I know doesn't give me hissy fits about spam, because I long ago registered it to an email account that no longer exists.

Real

[Anonymous Coward]

Real Player is, and long has been, the single most obnoxious example of tricky marketing of "free" products. And their paying customers aren't treated much better.

I purchased RealJukebox 2.0 way back when, and it was an okay product. But RealOne Player kills it. I can no longer patch my original purchased version, because any attempt to update it will install RealOne. Supposedly this is a replacement, but naturally, the free player doesn't include all of the features. So, basically, my purchase has been rendered worthless.

For those who care, it's worth noting that the Glaser family supports several of the most extreme animal rights groups. And I don't mean people who rescue stray kittens, these are people who think that stepping on an ant is the moral equivalent of murdering a human. If you agree, that's then go ahead and check all the spamboxes. If you're unsure, do some research before doing business with Real.

How did AOL snuck into my Trusted Sites

[21mhz]

Reading comments on the article, I noticed a related discussion on a sneaky install process that adds one of the AOL's domains to the Trusted Sites list in the IE settings, and reportedly modifies the Trusted zone settings as well, all without user consent. I discovered such modifications done on my system too, and I suspect it was either Netscape 6/7 or ICQ. Any evidence on the origin of that "AOL hole installer", to warn the world against?

Hiding opt out - options

[armyturtle]

Yep, this is just like LONG RANTING EULA's that make people not really want to take the time to read them... every company knows that the end user (to which the EULA directly is supposed to address) is just going to click "I AGREE" to get the damn thing working/running.

Another funny situation I saw... two days ago a bus went by me on the street. I had this HUGE ADD on the side of it in 3 foot letters for AT&T long distance. It said something about how you could sign up for unlimited long distance at some low cost... $25 a month or something. The statement had a * at the end. I tried to read the fine print at the bottom for the details... guess how small they were??? About as small as the print in the NEWSPAPER. Try reading that as a bus passes you buy with an advertisement!

It's dirty. I FRIKIN HATE these people and their cheap tactics. They're no better than the Enron execs and should all be SHOT to be removed from this earth on INSTANT.

Re:Tricky indeed - they got me..

[octalgirl]

Around 2 years ago I purchased the real RealPlayer, because I was going to do some video development with it. I bought it online, and the purchase process was horrendous. After I clicked buy it, I was taken to a screen with a ton of things checked off for me, including signing up for their monthly subscription for realplayer maintenance - the gold package I think it was. I unchecked everything, but when I clicked next, there was another screen with different things and the gold player was checked on again. I unchecked everything again. Third screen, same thing.

Since I'm in tech, I would like to think I have some idea what's going on and not get tripped up by this stuff. But I can't imagine how the average user gets through this. Anyway, on the next months credit card bill, there it was, 11 and change charge for RealPlayer maintenence. I swear I unchecked everything. I wish I had taken screen shots to prove it. So I go on their web site to try and cancel. To get to my user account was very difficult (of course I wasn't aware I really had one so I had to figure it out) Under subscription maintenence, I finally found the option to cancel. I click cancel. Up pops a phone number to call to actually get it canceled. I was very busy, lots to do, and I think they counted on that. I had planned to cancel when I got home, but of course I forgot. I kept thinking about it at work, but when I got home I would forget again. Three more months went by, before I finally remembered on the weekend to sit down and take care of it. I had to go through the online process again to get the number, which I finally called and got it cancelled, which of course the guy tried to sell me real player again! Never, never, never again!!!

Re:And?

[AntiNorm]

they will reveal to advertisers any email address you email to without mentioning that they do.

Much as I hate to defend Hotmail (I have recently switched email providers after 5-6 years of putting up with Hotmail's ever-increasing level of BS), my tests have shown that this is a myth. When I was getting ready to switch off of Hotmail back in October or so, I set up a dummy email account elsewhere for the sole purpose of testing whether they do this or not. I fired off several emails from my Hotmail account to this email box...to this date, the dummy email account has yet to receive ONE message.

Re:Real Player is a hideous program.

[hhknighter]

I know exactly what you mean.

This might be old news by now, since I never touched anything related to Real after this incident:

Tried to see a commercial recommended by friends, had to download Real One. I always thought Real was free, but had slight trouble looking all over the page for a link RELATED to the free basic. It felt like you had to pay. Found and installed it, I don't remember if it did NOT allow advanced installing options, or it had it but only allowed you to change directories (real advance there....), but it took over MY ENTIRE COMPUTER. Almost everything relating to media used Real. It had a semi-lousy interface, ads up the wazzo, and best of all, uninstalling means you THINK it's gone. All my media files still ran with RealShit. Some would no longer run because RealShit had no idea how to run it.

So instead of doing tracking and undoing the damages done, I emailed them and basically complained lots. From formal degrading to cuss. Near the end, I somehow managed to get rid of it manually. Never will touch anything ram, rm, or realanything.

Did I mention the file I wanted to see was so friggin blocky and poor quality that I ended up waiting for it on TV? (filesize = 1.5m 12 seconds)

Re:My feeling is...

[Peterus7]

Oh crap...

I installed realplayer on my teacher's computer at my school (realplayer has a monoply on cambodian music, imoho. He wanted me to find him some music from his homeland, and I found some, but it was in realplayer. All of it.)... Oh crap indeed... I don't remember if I used his e-mail address. I hope I didn't!

I too, hope it is illegal. I don't like having to use realplayer.