Disney Wins, Eldred (and everyone else) Loses 1292
hondo77 writes "In a 7-2 decision, The Supreme Court gave Disney what they wanted. Story just broke, no details yet." They're talking about the Eldred case, recently argued before the Supreme Court and mentioned on Slashdot many times. The upshot is that no works produced in the United States after the 1920's will ever go out of copyright. Opinions: Majority opinion, Stevens' dissent, Breyer's dissent.
Probably "correct" legally (Score:4, Interesting)
This is awful for fair use, obviously. We've got to somehow get Congressmen elected who can see the folly of the current path, and who are immune to the ideal-destroying effects of large campaign donations. Doesn't look like we'll be reading Faulkner on line anytime soon...
Replying before all the info is in (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, much of the music I listen to is old 80s death metal or thrash metal. All of it is out of print, yet the firms holding the music (and presumably the copyrights as well) won't re-release it onto cd.
No matter, many high quality bootlegs can be found from overseas. And by bootlegs I mean small no-name record companies that have re-mastered the originals onto cd, added lyric sheets, some band photos, etc.
This will continue, the material we want will be available, just not in the US.
That sucks, but if that's the world we live in... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Works can still go out of copyright. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I hate to make this a party-line issue, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
'Justices John Paul Stevens and Stephen Breyer disagreed with their colleagues.
Stevens wrote that the court was "failing to protect the public interest in free access to the products of inventive and artistic genius."'
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,75612,00.html
My favorite quote from the article.. (Score:2, Interesting)
The millions that these companies *could* have lost was the question here, and this article seems to imply that their lobbying easily got what they wanted.
The artists, probably dead or going to die, will not see the continuous profits. It reminds me of intellectual property agreements... things no longer belong to individuals, but companies. Would any of these original artists really mind if someone started using their base ideas more after all this time? They'd probably be happy to see their idea continued.
Re:Suprise!? (Score:4, Interesting)
Active Use Copyrights? (Score:4, Interesting)
But what about something like the Katzenjammer Kids (for a comic from about the same time as the first mickey shorts) that aren't being actively used by anyone. No real reason for something like that to not be in the public domain.
In other words, don't extend copyright for everything, but give extensions for things that are still being actively used (and no, I don't have the time to work out a legal definition of "actively used").
Clarence Thomas book deal reached with HarperColli (Score:5, Interesting)
"Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas will receive more than $1 million for his memoirs from publisher HarperCollins.
Multiple publishers vied for the rights to Thomas' autobiography, which he started writing in 2001, but Thomas liked the package offered by the New York-based HarperCollins, including the editor assigned to work with him, people in the publishing industry with knowledge of the deal said Thursday.
The amount of the deal was not revealed, except that it was in seven figures. "
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=
It's a lost battle, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
Some wrongs can not be resolved by the courts. I think the most poignant quote during the hearing of the case was from Sandra Day O'Connor.
Time to educate the public--and change Congress's mind. Hard, but not impossible.
P.S. Washington Post has an AP article [washingtonpost.com] up and some links to background on the case.
Is this really going to change anything? (Score:2, Interesting)
Obviously, the government has missed the boat in this age of information dissimination. The nice part is, they were only passengers, and not part of the crew. The internet community will continue to do as it pleases because there really is no way to stop it, and I think they're going to be hard pressed to find a way to. They can make all the laws they want and throw a few people in jail, but I doubt they want to throw most of the American youth in jail for trading music, or back episodes of the Mickey Mouse Club.
So, what does this ruling really mean for the common American who just doesn't care?
Will I have to care? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Replying before all the info is in (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah...there are some problems with it, but at least that would keep the works available one way or another. At least it would help seed ebay, used stores, or whatever...you'd be more likely to find something released in the last 10 years than 20+ ago.
Re:Why don't they... (Score:5, Interesting)
No they don't. Or at least not in the case of intellectual property. If we are talking a physical item, then yes, ownership makes sense. But the fact is that all works are derivative works, derived from the input that society gives the artist. All of society help an author write a book, a painter paint a painting, a musican write a song.
We give them a short term monopoly on their work as a repayment for coming up with it, but then it should get turned over to the society that helped make it happen.
That is the reason for the public domain, and to me, it's a damn good one. This decision really pisses me off.
Re:EVER?! (Score:3, Interesting)
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=%22supreme+
Supremes are probably right on this (Score:2, Interesting)
The only thing the Supremes can talk about is "What does 'limited times' really mean". Basically, as long as the law doesn't say one billion years it's OK.
So basically, 90 years or whatever it is currently isn't long enough to trigger a ruling of "Ok, this is effectively infinite copyright".
I would also imagine the Supremes were a little wary of ruling on the whole idea of "infinite extension = infinite copyright" because that deals with Congress's ability to pass a _future_ law. That would be the judicial branch tinkering with the business of the legislative branch's opertaion. That's something the Supremes are probably very wary of.
It's time to get retro (Score:4, Interesting)
I know it sounds so 60's, or was it 70's or 80's? I don't know but the point is that it's high time we took this to the streets.
Don't discuss this on the level of some tech-geek thing. People glaze over and go stupid real fast.
This needs to be presented plain and simple. Disney is stealing from the past and locking it up for themselves (Grimm for example).
It's time to actively boycott Mickey Mouse. Does anyone know where I can get a bumper sticker with a Mickey Mouse outline and a bit red circle+slash?
How can they extend copyright on existing works ?? (Score:2, Interesting)
Who would think that extending a different contract - copyright - would give them the power to extend the existing contracts ? In no other instance would this be even remotely Legal, let alone constitutional.
I have given up on the US Government quite a while ago.
Re:Why expire? (Score:4, Interesting)
We need access to things like Mickey because everything in our culture and our knowledge is based on something that came before. Look at Disney's movies. All are based on some old fairytale or myth, or are an adaptation of a book. Imagine if those works had never become "public domain". Disney would never have created any of those movies! Copyright is a double-edged sword. If you are a strong supporter of long copyright terms, you'd best check that the things you create your works from are not based on public domain works.
The constitution states that copyright was created "to promote science and the useful arts". Giving a creator a limited monopoly on their creation does just that. But when the creator is long dead and the evil, bloated corporation that he founded is still sucking every dime they can from the same old characters, it hardly seems that "science and the useful arts" are getting anything back.
We need Mickey because along with him, we'll get a vast catalog of early films, books songs, and other works. IF we don't get them soon, they will disappear altogether. And once they're gone, they're gone for good.
Copyright is supposed to have a limited term. Almost 100 years can hardly be construed as "limited".
The Crow and the Owl (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure Louise Szente won't mind
THE CROW AND THE OWL
Louise Szente
The glow of the fire against the night sky was comforting. A smell of roasting meat permeated the air. The family sat quietly watching the fire and listening to the night sounds.
A morose old man sat to one side poking the fire with a twig. His thoughts were lost in yesteryear when such an occasion would have been noisy and full of laughter. Stories would have been told and lessons would have been learnt. But, now... now they cannot tell stories anymore. Now tradition is lost.
"Tata" said one of the children "please tell us about the times when you were young."
"Oh my boy" lamented the old man "those days are gone, I am not allowed to tell the tales that I heard from my grandfather, but I have been thinking. I can tell you the story about the Owl and the Crow, because I have just made it up. Listen and listen well."
Once a long long time ago, the Owl was the custodian of all the stories of the land. Every night all the animals would gather around the Owl and listen to the stories. And oh, what wonderful stories the Owl told. He passed on all the knowledge of the world.
Every night the Crow sat with all the other animals listening to the Owl. But, Crow grew jealous. "Why should Owl have the right to tell the stories, I am sure I can do a better job and makes lots of money."
Crow spent his days thinking of a way to take away the right of the Owl to tell the stories. He craved the power to have all the animals listen to him. He thought and thought because he knew that he could get very rich if he had the right to all the knowledge of the land.
One day Crow went to the Owl and very politely asked Owl if he could write down the stories that the Owl told each night. "Just think" said Crow "if I write down the stories, the children can read it during the day and never forget the lessons all the stories teach. The animals could use the stories to gather plants for healing purposes. Why they could even learn how to live peacefully together.:
The Owl spent days pondering Crows' request. He admired the cleverness of Crow. To think that the children would be able to learn during the day as well, maybe then he would be able to appoint a successor much sooner than tradition dictates. This made the Owl very happy, because it always took a long time to train somebody to take over the position of Custodian of Tradition.
Every day Crow would go to the Owl and in a smooth voice tell Owl of all the benefits the land could reap by having its tradition in writing. The purpose of all the medicinal plants would forever be available. The way children should be brought up traditionally would forever be there for parents to follow. Why, it would make the land a better place to live in because all the knowledge of the land would be saved for prosperity.
As Owl sat and listened to Crow each day, he wondered at the plan of Crow. He never for one moment thought about what Crow would benefit by such an idea. Oh, he knew very well that Crow was a sly and devious creature, but he thought Crow had changed. Perhaps Crow was getting old and was afraid that he would be forgotten. Be that as it may, the Owl thought about the idea and eventually said to Crow that he may write down all the stories.
This made Crow very happy. He rushed off and prepared a document for the Owl to sign. "Why should I sign this document?" asked the Owl.
Crow went into a long explanation about how some of the animals to not trust him and if he had this document, he could proved that he had the Owl's permission to record all the stories. Pleased with the foresight of Crow Owls signed the document that he did not really understand. He knew the animals did not trust Crow and he knew that they would query the fact that Crow is recording all the traditions of the land.
For years Crow sat at the feet of the Owl every night recording the stories. During the day Crow would ask the Owl how many stories he still has to tell and Owl would reply that there are many stories to be told and many lessons to be learnt.
One night a new generation of animals gathered to listen to the stories of the Owl. It so happened that the Owl decided to repeat a story. Immediately Crow jumped up and stopped Owl.
"You are not allowed to repeat that story," said Crow, "that story belongs to me"
"No Crow, you are wrong, that story belongs to all the animals of the land. It is my duty to tell this story. All the animals need to know everything about the land," replied the Owl.
"That story belongs to me," replied Crow " you gave me the right to that story, so you have to ask my permission to repeat that story. Come to think of it, I think that all the stories have been told. Now, all the stories are mine. If you want to tell the stories you will have to pay me"
"But,,, But what is this" stuttered the Owl "since the beginning of time the stories of the land have been told to the children every night. We always sat around the fire and the Custodian of Knowledge would tell stories. That is how the children learnt!"
"Not anymore." replied the Crow "from now on there will be no stories at night anymore. If you want to continue with the stories you will have to pay me. And, I am going to charge entrance fee from each and every animal attending the story time. Nothing comes free in this life Owl."
"What is this?" cried all the animals.
With an evil grin on his face Crow replied:
"THIS IS CALLED COPYRIGHT"
"You see children," said the old man "that is why I cannot tell you the stories of the times past. All the stories have been told. I can only tell you new stories that I had just made up and then I must be very careful that the Crow does not hear me, otherwise he would take my stories, sell it, and nobody would benefit from it. If the Owl had not given away our tradition to the unscrupulous crow, night times would have been the happy times it was.
Re:Why don't they... (Score:5, Interesting)
And it's even worse because Disney got to steal from the cultural works of their fathers and grandfathers, but if you decide to do something based on "the little mermaid', there is a chance you could get sued. Or what if your grandkid decides to do some derivative work off 'Lilo and stitch'? He could get sued. Now that's just plain wrong...aka "we can do it, but you can't".
Happened to music already. (Score:3, Interesting)
There are limits to how much corruption an economy can effectively function with. We have widespread corruption built into the foundations of both legislation and court law making the current winners in our system forever protected until the system collapses. Expect the 21st century to be interesting....in the Chinese curse sense.
What about music artists? (Score:4, Interesting)
Would I be right in assuming that this basically means that all composers who sign contracts with U.S. companies are now no more than indentured servants who will never be able to own the rights to their own creations unless they become rich enough to buy back the copyright on their work from the record companies? I realize that it was basically this way before, but now it seems the record companies have unlimited control.
Would any artist in their right mind ever sign with a U.S. label again? Why not just find a label in a country with much saner copyright laws, say... Canada [justice.gc.ca]? Seriously, if enough artists get pissed and just bypass American media corporations altogether, this could be the beginning of the downfall of the U.S. corporations control of the music industry. This idea could work for other types of artists as well, such as screenwriters.
Then again, musicians could just self-publish their work and retain their copyright fromt he beginning.
Is this idea naive? Yes. Is it unrealistic? Yes. Could it ever work? Probably not, but I'm not quite so jaded as to give up hope.
Re:Why expire -- public domain is good. (Score:3, Interesting)
think of what life would be like if works would have never gone into the public domain: there would be no free access to the works [promo.net] like shakespeare, poe, bible, bach, beethoven, puccini. as a consequence disney wouldnt have been able to make things like snow white, the jungle book, peter pan, etc. people take these things for granted, but a world where nothing enters the public domain would be a very depressing one.
another issue has nothing to do with mickey. many works are essentially abandoned. they are sitting on bookshelves not being read and will disappear. eldred [eldred.cc] wants to take many old works, transcribe them into digitial form, and make them available to a new generation of readers. these works are making no money for the copyright holders, and in many cases the copyright holders are unknown. under the current copyright laws, these will never enter the public domain -- all this to protect mickey.
i'm sorry but a corporations desire to earn money does not trump the constitution in my opinion. it's sad the justices dont think in the same manner.
No, seriously, explain this! (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, from a Lessig interview:
Re:Works can still go out of copyright. (Score:2, Interesting)
I.e. if something is under copyright in its country of origin, then the laws of the country where you currently are can also apply.
That means if something was copyrighted in Canada, in the States, American copyright laws would apply to it. I expect, however, that when the Canadian copyright expired (50 years after the author's death, normally) no copyright would apply in the States either. Is this true?
On the other side of things, this means that even if something is copyrighted in the States, it could be expired elsewhere.
For example, as far as I can tell from the laws, any movie released in the States before 1952 is currently unprotected by copyright in Canada. The same goes for other material where the author died in 1952 or before.
With that in mind, I'd LOVE to host a large internet archive of movies, books and recordings online here in Canada - things that are out of copyright here, but still under copyright in the States. It would surely cause a stir, but it's completely legal here.
Of course, doing anything like that would be very expensive... but maybe starting small - an extension of Project Gutenberg here, for example, just for texts which meet the above criteria.
Abuse of the law leads to disrespect for the law (Score:2, Interesting)
When the law is unreasonable, people will simply defy it, out of resentment or sometimes out of simple necessity. This leads to loss of respect for the law and further problems in society. We can expect the file traders and other 'pirates' to flourish now. The public now has no hope of any relaxation of this extremism and will simply defy the law. And of course the corporations will run to the government for help curbing the 'pirates'. The Feudal rulers were really annoyed at those peasants and serfs poaching 'their' game just because they were hungry. Funny that the direst punishments could not stop this behavior. People are just not 'smart' enough to become what the law dictates they should be. They have this funny thing called 'self interest' that leads them to try to lead their own lives instead of serve the self-appointed powers over them. I guess we can expect warfare, open and otherwise, between the public and the corporations for the foreseeable future.
Re:Replying before all the info is in (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem is "publication" is loosely defined. It's one thing to get a CD for whatever the going rate is, but what if the publisher prices things out of the hands of the average customer? For instance, CD X would still be "available", but each person to order it would have to pay for the mastering process, artwork being reprinted, etc... The CD (or book, or DVD, etc) would still be "available", but most people would be unable (or unwilling) to pay hundreds of dollars extra for a copy of their favorite CD.
The Internet doesn't change the situation. If the songs are made available by the publisher as 96Khz 24-bit WAV files, and then connects the server to the Net with a 1200 baud modem, it would be effectively impossible to get them.
If there's a loophole, a company with money to spend on lawyers will find it. That's one of the things that truly pisses me off about the music industry -- the entire concept of "out-of-print" could have been eliminated; the industry could be making money off their backcatalog and the fans would have the media they want. Instead, the industry is ramming artificial scarcity down the consumer's throats.
Re:Why does everything have to be free?? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not everything has to be free. However, the original point of Copyright, as I understand it was to allow owners of Copyrights to temporarily hold exclusive rights on the distribution of their creations for the sake of profit, then allow it to fall into the public domain _for the greater good_.
It is better for everyone if all media is free.
However, media isn't produced (in our very money-centric society) for free, so giving those who create media money to create it gives us more media. Those media should eventually be free, however. Not free at a cost to the creator (that is, it should not be the onus of the creator to give the product away), but free in that all people with access to that media can reproduce it and redistribute it freely (and I would of course argue, with credit given to the author(s)).
That is how a society becomes educated; I have a significant problem with RMS sometimes, but search for his essay on the future of people going to university and not being allowed to share books.
Also, consider reading Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (free online book; also available in dead tree version) for some of that author's thoughts on a future where money is replaced by respect.
Links:
Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom [craphound.com]
GNU Philosophy [gnu.org]
Re:Why don't they... (Score:3, Interesting)
Did they? I mean, really? Is there a history of mickey mouse book out there that I am missing that details how disney gave birth to the mouse through someone else's idea?
That sounds sarcastic, but it's not. I would like someone to come out with the information and prove this arguement, because otherwise it's baseless.
Re:Why don't they... (Score:5, Interesting)
Hmmm... that's obviously true for something like a wagon or a bale of hay, but let's see if that statement applies to IP:
Nope. The institution of IP was explicitly predicated on the progress of science and useful arts. Securing rights to IP is specified as a means to that end, not an end in itself.
IOW, IP exists because society as a whole has a right to useful arts and sciences, not because authors and inventors have some god given right to claim ownership of swaths of information space. The ownership of IP is an accident of implementation, not an entitlement for you or your family.
This nation is full of simmering frogs who have fallen for the last century of creeping featurism in the concept of IP.
Now the fun begins (Score:2, Interesting)
Winnie the Pooh comes to mind, Aren't they being sued over that? Any other movies they've made that come from books written this century?
Hell, lets make a cottage industry out of it. Go through every movie made and see if they own the rights to the book, then contact the writer and help him sue.
Get rediculous about it. Sue for using words that were coined by people in the last nine decades, Sue for having photo's of famous art in a movie without paying the artist. Sue for using the backdrop of a building without paying the architect. Sue for hairstyles that have been copyrighted. Hit them again and again with ramifications of this STUPID law they made. Let them suffer for it.
If we make enough of a mess out of the law, they will eventually junk it.
The slashdot crowd prides itself on using the rules against their creators. That's what hacking was originally about. looks like the board has been set, and the rules defined. Let's play.
Re:The first thing this makes me think is... (Score:4, Interesting)
What's wrong with 14 years of copyright protection? Why is "lifetime of creator plus 90 years" a good thing?
Slashdot Challenge 2003 (Score:4, Interesting)
TO BE USED TO INNUNDATE SLASHDOT EDITORS WITH REQUESTS FOR POSTING TO ASK SLASHDOT
Why can't we accomplish anything? The Slashdot community is fair sized and to me seems more intelligent than most. So why is the biggest and best thing we can accomplish shutting down any misbegotten website that has the misfortune to put up something interesting without having industrial-strength bandwidth?
What would your top issues be if you could REALLY organize this and other online communities? A candidate for president? Maybe a mutual fund - we could work out several dozen tech stocks that we think deserve support and agree to put in money, grit our teeth, and keep it there for the longer haul - say three years? What else? How would YOU organize the support? What would the system be for input, dissent, advice, decisionmaking? Would we ever be able to agreee on a sufficiently common groung? If we really put our better than average minds to it, could we actually DO something?
Okay, so get posting. For my part, I will post this myself, and if it actually gets up there I will participate in the discussion, and participate in anything that comes of it. Go on, why not? Waste another five minutes, it's just work. Stop talking and give anarchy by collective agreement a try...
Re:Probably "correct" legally (Score:5, Interesting)
The Aberdeen Shore Porters Society [shoreporters.com] was founded in 1498 and is still trading - and, indeed, is still in the same business it was in 500 years ago, which says something for consistency. It is reputedly the oldest company in Britain.
There are four companies in the United States [businesshistory.net], even, which date back to before independence.
Absolutely agreed.
Re:Death of culture. (Score:4, Interesting)
"Heaven forbid anyone should maybe get off their lazy ass and write a new fucking 'happy birthday' song and use that instead of complaining and whining. Sheesh."
Mike Jittlov ended up doing exactly this for his movie The Wizard of Speed and Time. (I feel fortunate in owning a laserdisc copy of this wonderful film - only 6000 were made before it got yanked off the market due to copyright disagreements.)
Originally, Jittlov had a scene where a group of people were singing the classic Happy Birthday song, but he then found he'd have to pay significant royalties on it, so he wrote his own "Merry Birthday" song and used that instead. It's actually quite good!
Some restaurant chains have their own compositions as well for when the servers come out to wish a guest a happy birthday in song.
Spider Robinson's Melancholy Elephants, referenced by others here, beautifully expresses a downside to extending copyrights to infinity.
Re:The first thing this makes me think is... (Score:5, Interesting)
No kidding, eh? I know this decision has made *MY* respect for copyrights, our entire judicial system, and the government in general, go way up. Golly. Better "plug that analog hole", aka our eyes, by chipping our brains right away, Fritz, 'cuz my opinion of your "rights" just hit bottom. Time to start violating copyrights to material I don't even *want*, just for the sake of civil disobedience.
As an independent artist I can tell you that copyrights are the only thing that can protect us from people taking advantage of our work.
And as a recent article about the dojinshi phenomena in Japan shows, that doesn't quite hold true.
However, I *do* respect you, and thank you for producing works that I (or others, if not me) might enjoy. Seriously, no sarcasm intended.
However...
Those copyrights don't *NEED* to protect you after you die. Current copyright terms *will* last longer than any of us will, unless science "cures" death in the next few years. The idea of "to the author's death plus 70 years" seems quite adequate to me.
As for your "legacy"... Face it - If your work doesn't make you wealthy in this life, it won't do so in the next. At most, someday your kids might make a few bucks selling the distillation of your life for some company to use in a commercial. Yay, the thought makes *me* want to go out and create.
I think a lot of people have missed the big *philosophical* issue involved here. Corporate America has us so brainwashed to believe in their "rights" that we don't even realize the true nature of such rights. Many of us think it MORALLY wrong to "steal" 80-year-old copyrighted material. Yet, the US constitution *only* allows copyrights "to promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries."
For THAT reason, all Americans should feel outrage at this decision. The supreme court has sold us out. Unlimited extensions ala the Sunny Bono act do not equal "limited" copyright terms as allowed in the constitution.
I'll skip getting into the obvious rant about erosion of fair-use rights as well.
Well, at least you Europeans don't need to worry about your artistic heritage vanishing into the past because something ceased to exist (think nitrate film) because it became unprofitable before its copyright expired. Perhaps when (if) the US gets some sanity back, you'll lend us a copy so we can enjoy the past as well?
Re:Why don't they... (Score:1, Interesting)
Sleeping Beauty
Cinderella
Aladdin
Hunchback of Notre Dame
(their latest flop) Treasure planet
To name but a few
Re:What has happened to the USA? (Score:4, Interesting)
"Wall street owns the country. It is no longer a government of the people, by the people and for the people, but a government of Wall Street, by Wall Street and for Wall Street."
Take hope, however. In time, most of the Populist reforms were enacted. Which leads me to another quote, better known, from Mother Jones:
"Don't mourn, organize!"
Re:Why does everything have to be free?? (Score:3, Interesting)
This is part of the problem. In the minds of most people today, there's little to no delineation between intellectual property and physical property.
I believe that the framers (and most people, when they think about it) would not acknowledge a natural right to restrict others from using an idea just because you had it first. That the right to intellectual property is a fundamental, or natural right, is just what Disney, AOL/TW, and just about every other media company on earth would like you to believe.
In reality, the entire point of copyright (and, for that matter, patent law) is to provide incentives to expand the pool of public knowledge. It's a comprimise to provide incentives to be creative, not an acknowledgement of perpetual ownership of an idea just because you had it first.
Disney Corp wants to keep control of it's very identifiable mascot, Mickey Mouse. And why shouldn't they? What would Walt Disney think if some 40 years after his death, somebody with a computer and an internet connection was making porn cartoons with the characters he created? And nobody could do anything about it.
You're right. No one could do anything about it. But that's part of the bargain! Disney was granted a time period with some exclusive rights to their work. They used that time to (greatly!) profit. At the end of the term, anyone is free to do anything they want with your original creation, within the wide bounds of free speach.
If you want to create something, create something original. Don't depend on the work somebody else did decades ago to be your only creative outlet. It's still legal to get inspiration from other works. And until they take that right away from us, use it. There are still original ideas being created every day.
Under this reasoning, Ford should be paying big time royalties to the estate of Thrack, the homo erectus who invented the wheel. Having unbounded intellectual property rights would not only seriously degrade the quality of life of the average person, it also is dangerously close to creating thought-crime
Re:Why don't they... (Score:5, Interesting)
"The Little Mermaid" was written by Hans Christian Andersen. Disney took the story, mangled it a bit, didn't credit the original author, and now protects it like a rabid bulldog. Same with "The Hunchback of Notre Dame". Written by Victor Hugo. He's not credited either. "Pocahontas" was a (more or less) true story. "Mulan" is based on a Chinese legend. "Atlantis" is an adaptation of "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea" (and draws many compelling comparisons to "Nadia: Secret of Blue Water"). "The Lion King" was a direct ripoff of "Kimba, The White Lion", an original work done by Osamu Tezuka. "Cinderella", "Snow White", "Beauty and the Beast" and "Sleeping Beauty" are all widely known faerie tales.
Disney most certainly got to "steal from the cultural works of their fathers and grandfathers".
Re:Other nations (Score:3, Interesting)
The two that spring to mind are Proper Records, a UK label that issues 4CD box sets with annotated sleeve-notes for about the price of a single CD, and Naxos, a German based classical music company that has subsidurary labels that issue archive Classical and Jazz recordings. There also used to be Document, an Austrian company specialising in blues compilations. There are, of course, many more, some really low budget.
Re:*Sigh* Read between the lines (Score:3, Interesting)
By 1928, Oswald was a hit, but Walt clashed with his corporate masters when he asked for more pay, they booted him and hired other animators (eventually Walter Lantz) to produce Oswald cartoons.
Disney (and Iwerks) bailed from Universal Studios and created a cartoon replacement for Oswald. Since cats and rabbits had been done, they created Mickey (ne Mortimer) Mouse.
So not only is Mickey a copy of a copy, he sprang from a designer/corporate dispute!
Copyright Cartel (Score:3, Interesting)
Copyright was supposed to spurr innovation. They are abusing their intellectual property rights by controlling access to IP in much the same way DeBeers controls access to Diamonds.
The only innovation I see is in marketing.. evil evil marketing.
S
Somewhat scary use of precedents... (Score:3, Interesting)
Seemingly a large part of the reason that this law is being upheld as legal, is that Congress has extended copyright terms before, successfully.
So it would seem, that we're being victimized in this case, because in 1790 nobody successfully fought the terms of the original copyright law, being enacted to cover both existing, and new creations.
Re:Copyright expiration is part of the business (Score:3, Interesting)
Look, the justices know the law. Their comments during the arguments phase made it abundantly clear that they understand it is ridiculous from a POV of constitutional law to retroactively extend copyrights.
But they also live in this world. The economy is weak and not so stable right now, and if they rule against the Bono Act, they also rule against previous copyright extensions, which makes several decades of copyrighted work public domain. This would be a colossal economic hit to the major media companies, and to the US economy. This was also something they noted during arguments.
So they noted it was stupid and passed the buck back to Congress. They lack spines and/or didn't want to do things to make the Bush administration's life tougher by causing the value of the large media companies to take an instant hit.
Re:EVER?! (Score:3, Interesting)
just my idealism (read: youth)
I've always wondered why idealism and youth were so closely associated... and why people have weird ideas about what a "grown up" is (boring).
Grab one of Disney's "family" movies and watch for concepts they are pushing. These ideas are being pushed into your brain from a very young age. Are they really worth anything? Are they even harmless? (I would have to argue that they aren't.)
Right to control (Score:3, Interesting)
The argument makes me imagine Disney had made a comedy about a bunch of dark-skinned guys taking over a plane to fly a kidney to New York to save a cute alien's life and it opened on September 7. Clearly, they'd want to deep-six that film, but the 'use it or lose it' idea would let us all make Disney ashamed/embarrassed forever.
Undoubtedly, this conception of rights doesn't really fit with the purpose of "promotion" of new works discussed well in the dissenting opinions, but my point is that plenty of living authors may consider it critical. Moveover, not even the dissents envision depriving either the public or private interests of their current rights, so while 'use it or lose it' might be a nice idea, it can't go anywhere without the wholesale appropriation of existing intellectual property from authors.
Re:This is GOOD news for content creators...sure! (Score:4, Interesting)
sometimes not even then. There are stories of movie studios burning prints of the films that are about to enter the Public domain to prevent them from competing with their current releases. Not that anybody will have to do that anymore, film stock will be long gone before the copyright expires now.
Re:Not the end - if we don't let it be the end (Score:3, Interesting)
(The only quasi-exception I can think of is Plessy v. Fergesson later being overturned by Brown v. Board of Education, but that wasn't really an overturning - the court held that separate but equal was still legal, but that the present situation was not equal and that it could not likely be made equal, and therefore that if equality could not be guarenteed then separation by races could not continue. Hence the ruling was basically overridden but not overturned.)
The only way to change copyright is to have copyright law change. Vote in people who are willing to change the law. The Supreme Court turned up the ruling everyone with half a brain expected - that current copyright law is constitutional. And it will remain constitutional even if it is continuously lengthened with a limited time. Limited time is quite clear - a definitive time, not infinite. So if it becomes life + 120 years, that's still limited.
This is the end of pursing this through the courts (which is the wrong way to do it). You can only continue it by trying to change copyright law. So what're you waiting for? Go for it!
Re:Destroying the diversity of works... (Score:2, Interesting)
I am personally a great fan of Krazy Kat [ignatzmouse.net], a comic published in from 1913 to 1936 in the Hearst newspapers and generally considered as one of the greatest comics ever published. Unfortunately, it was not really popular. So it is no wonder that it has never been published since then.
So basically, that means that this comic strip that I love, I have NO WAY of reading it - unless I want to spend all my free time in some museums reading microfilms. And this is really sad.
I have started a project to republish all its content up to 1920 but I cannot go past that date for legal reasons. So what? For of the sake of copyrights these companies have the right to hide and bury very deep some gems of the last century? This should be considered as a crime!
Trying to keep the KKK bedsheets hidden in cellar (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's a fairly tame example [sickopath.com] of Disney's fears. They produced piles upon piles of literature that - while not meant to be degrading at the time - would be a serious embarassment if they were made widely known today.
My grandfather has a few of the Donald Duck comics he used to get at his gas station in 1940s Dayton, Ohio. In these, Donald refers to various and sundry brown people as "porch monkeys" and "cotton pickin tar babies" - let alone the dozens of people of color portrayed in pitiful stereotype. Native Americans, negros, hispanics, etc. etc. all shown as lazy, drunken, slobs or as murderous psychopaths.
The least of Disney's worries is their animated/live action film "Song of the South" - which they have pulled from shelves. This movie actually celebrated the rich culture of blacks in the 19th century south and in treated the subject with respect.
With the works I'm talking about, there was no respect present. Such as that shown in the example - the stereotyped character was put on display as an oddity.
that, I think, is Disney's major motivation for keeping an iron grip on copyright.
Noble effort, but wrong branch of government. (Score:2, Interesting)
While I think your attempt was noble, I believe it was misplaced. You state you are looking for what the "Framers of the Constitution" wanted? If you read the constitution, the Framers did not want a strong judiciary. In fact, Thomas Jefferson was so appalled when John Marhsall illegally decided judical review was the court's power he stated, "In the hands of the Judicary, the Constitution is but a ball of wax, to be molded and shaped to their desires."
Surprisingly, I agree with the decision. The responsibility for changing bad laws is Congress. Congress is the branch empowered to write laws, and also the branch responsible for changing laws. Even if you grant the Supreme Court the ability to strike down unconstitutional laws, there must be a *clear* and *direct* violation. Any amount of time is not "infinite", even if it is _practically_infinite_.
You speak as though the effort is over. Why not spend your energy now on educationg members of Congress on why this is a bad law and get it repealled? In essence, this is what the Supreme Court is telling you. There is a new house majority leader taking office this very month. If you don't try, you never will know if it will succeed.
Re:Probably "correct" legally (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes and No. You are not misinterpreting it in the sense that the right initially attaches to an individual (the author/inventor). The question is whether that right should be alienable, i.e. can it be sold. Some rights in society are deemed to be inalienable, like Jefferson supposedly touted on about in the Declaration of Independence. For instance, you have a right not to be murdered, but you cannot sell someone the right to murder you. Other rights are alienable. You have the right to own land and quietly enjoy it, but you can sell that right to a buyer.
So, you are correct in thinking that the Constitution authorizes Congress to grant certain rights to individuals; however, the Constitution does not require that those rights be inalienable, and in fact, to do so would make no sense in the context of what the framers were trying to accomplish. An author has a right to his work, but even Jefferson et al. knew that he would have to license (i.e. sell) that right to a publisher to have it actually provide benefit to society.
The Constitution generally provides for the creation of alienable rights. Congress can make no law abridging the freedom of speech (meaning you have a right to speak your mind), but you can sign a contract with a private party agreeing to say only certain things, or refrain from saying other things (e.g. a confidentiality agreement).
Quote of the day (Score:4, Interesting)
"Eldred v. Ashcroft"
Need more be said?
Screw retro... Let's get midevil! (Score:3, Interesting)
I say we assassinate Mickey Mouse.
Make a Mickey Mouse and the 7 dwarves porno cartoon.
Make a Mickey Mouse ultra-violent video game.
Spread stickers with pictures of Mickey smoking a roach with Walt.
And on each of them put "In response to the Sony Bono Copyright Extension act. Have nice day."
Re:Noble effort, but wrong branch of government. (Score:4, Interesting)
The law is constitutional - that is now a fact thanks to this ruling. I've thought since the beginning that this was the wrong way to go about things. Pushing this case through reminds me of school children playing a game - a small group finds the rules to be unfair, and instead of trying to find a solution with rest of the children, they instead run to the teacher and complain that the rules are unfair and that the teacher should strike them down. Hmm - that was a bad analogy. Ah well.
What we need to do - if we truly believe that copyright law is an injustice - is to organize rallies and get the word out! If a bunch of Farscape fans could run ads to push for the show, then I would hope that people who believe strongly against copyright could push this issue in time for the 2004 Presidential elections. Get the public outraged. Educate them on the issues and hope that some will decide that this issue is indeed important to them.
I highly doubt that most people either understand copyright or see it as anything wrong. We live in a world of perpetual copyright - people honestly believe that it is right for someone to have a monopoly on their works for all eternity. Asking the Supreme Court to change this is the wrong way to do it. We need to get the laws changed. If copyright can be retroactively extended, then it can be retroactively reduced. Stop trying to get the Supreme Court to overrule the will of Congress, and make this an issue that people have an opinion on!
C'mon - if people could organize protests against Dmitry being jailed, I really hope we could organize on the issue of copyright. If people can lead a case against copyright, I would hope that they can lead a group of people towards getting people to have an opinion. Let's see if we can get the law changed through the lawmakers and not go crying to the nine "teachers" that the law is unfair.
Forever Ever?! Sorry, Miss Jackson.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Some of what he discusses were individuals and companies lobbying congress to grant them patents on inventions within the public domain, occasionally for years. I can't help but wonder if that's prescient foreshadowing. Why bothering inventing new stuff when you can buy congressmen and have them grant you monopolies on older, proven inventions? Yeah, I'm going to file for a business method patent on that one.
But don't worry, in the distopian future I'll create with my impending stranglehold on the future technology of yesterday, everyone gets a free Atari, and not the 2600, the 5200, and two free games! Rejoice future subjects.
Re:Probably "correct" legally (Score:2, Interesting)
Because corporations are considered people, they have the right to free speech. This allows them to lobby effectively, and will likely lead to sharp changes to the McCain-Feingold campaign reform act (which tries to limit that kind of speech, as it relates to elections). However, IMHO there is a central falicy in this definition. The purpose of a corporation (of any business) is to make money for itself and its stock holders. Therefore, all speech performed by a corporation (or any person acting as a representative of that corporation) can be considered to be engaging in commercial speech.
This could lead to some interesting changes in the way the government is run, given that the Supreme Court has allowed strong curtailing of commercial speech...perhaps the CTEA would have never been passed.
Just thought I would drop in my two cents.
Andrew
legal opinion (Score:2, Interesting)
I am very impressed by Justice Stevens' dissent. Justice Breyer's
argument, in comparison, is light weight and easily dismissed. Even if one
does not agree with Stevens, his opinion a very well reasoned and accurate
legislative history of the 1790's.
The court could have easily adopted Stevens' opinion as the majority. I
have always been in favor of giving the constitution's ex post facto clause
more weight, but the court has not agreed with me. Evidently, Justice
Stevens does.
King George was very fond of ex post facto laws, laws which change a
contract or make an action a crime after the fact. Early court ruling from
James Madision (Gibbons v. Ogden) make it clear that the court well
remembered the abuses of their former king. However, over the past 225
years, we have had a collective memory loss about the abuses of the
King. (Now that George is back in power, we would do well to remember
it.) Ex post facto prohibitions are still alive and well in criminal cases
- One cannot be convicted of something which was not a crime at the time it
was committed. However, the civil side of ex post facto has nearly faded away.
During the Earl Warren court of the late 1960's and early 1970's, I think
it is likely that Stevens' argument would have been persuasive. However,
since Rhenquist's appointment by Richard Nixon, this court has had thirty
years of conservative, conservative, and even reactionary rulings. This is
just one more safe but conservative ruling for them. Where is William O.
Douglas when we need him?
No matter what one thinks of Al Gore or even Bill Clinton, it just pains me
no end to think that George W. may get to appoint up to six supreme court
justices during his term. If not the presidency, the democrats really need
to take back the senate in two years. It is they who confirm supreme court
appointments.
Otherwise, can you imagine Supreme Court Justice Ashcroft?
OK, now I am really depressed.
you are WRONG! (Score:2, Interesting)
We are the copyright infringing Chinese (Score:2, Interesting)
The Chinese yelled and jeered. "Bring your movies and music!", they cried. "If you wish to sell your entertainment to us, bring your movies and music. Bring out your CD's and DVD's. We are the copyright infringing Chinese. We will fetch your IP from your p2p networks if you don't. Bring out your highly paid superstars."
"The stars stay or come at their own will," said AmericanMediaMogul.
"Then what are you doing here?" They answered. "Why do you look out? Do you wish to see the greatness of our market? We are the copyright infringing Chinese."
"I looked out to see the Protection of Copyright", said AmericanMediaMogul.
"What of copyright?" they jeered. "We are the Chinese: we do not stop the copying for impotent US laws, for US congress or US supreme court. We come to copy, by sun or moon, movie or music, book or software. What of copyright?"
[inspired by prof. Tolkien ]
Not all bad news. (Score:3, Interesting)
The court rejected the argument that an extention of copyright terms would violate 1st Amendment rights, and they gave a pretty good argument for doing so (briefly, if a copyright does not restrain free speach now, then it will not restrain free speech just by sticking around a bit longer). However (and this is the good bit) they explicitly said that copyright legislation is subject to 1st Amendment restraints, and strongly suggested that fair use rights are required in order meet these constraints. This is increadibly good news, and bodes well for future rulings over the DMCA.
Evolution (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine that you live in Plum Creek, a fictitious, medium size town somewhere in the United States. It has two high schools, East High and West High. The rivalry between the two schools' football teams has been a major feature of local culture for decades. Last year, a boy living next door to your home was playing on the West High team. He invited you to attend the season finale, the game against East High. It began with the usual rules; however, East High couldn't seem to move the ball. The team had big, strong players but they were slow, and they had no passing game.
The referees reacted by announcing some rule changes. From now on, a team only needed thirty-nine and one half inches for a first down. And it had five attempts rather than four, but only if it didn't try a pass play. Any forward pass would end a series of downs.
People sitting near you in the stands were quite upset about the changes. They were aware that two of the three referees were uncles, and the third a next door neighbor, of East High players. A committee elected by all the high school coaches in the state had hired the referees. But they had long term contracts, and it was almost impossible to get rid of one who was biased, corrupt, or incompetent.
Many years ago, the coaches committee had also written a rule book, and all the coaches had then voted to adopt it. It stated that no rule could be changed without the written approval of three-fourths of the coaches. It also said, "A first down requires an advance of ten yards or more in no more than four plays." It didn't say anything about special limits on pass plays.
When irate fans complained about the clearly fraudulent rule changes, the referees brushed them off. "You don't understand the rule book," they said, "it's a living document which evolves to meet the needs of changing times. And we have the authority to guide that evolution."
You have just read a rough description of modern U. S. Supreme Court jurisprudence.
(copied from http://ttokarnak.home.att.net/Evolution.html)
Re:I disagree. (Score:3, Interesting)
But that's not his point. The point is that every 20 years Disney is gonna call up their totally owned senators and representatives, give them a couple hundred thousand in campaign contributions, and next thing you know, copyright is extended for another 20 years.
Remember, here in the United States, you don't have to register works to get copyright protection - so they don't have to do anything - they can just sit on the library of 'owned' works, and when in 500 years, for some reason the Uncle Remus stuff becomes acceptable again (ok, not likely) - they can whip it back out. As a result, nothing of our culture's history becomes owned by our culture....ever again...from 1923 on.
Yes - registering copyrights again would greatly assist here. But the reality is that you don't have to, and likely never will again.
Read the F'ing Constitution... (Score:3, Interesting)
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
"Limited times" - Isn't that binding?
What about international copyright (Score:2, Interesting)
Will the copyrights still expire in other countries?
If it doesn't wont this just have the effect of reducing the number of older/classic works being published in america?
Re:Clarence Thomas book deal reached with HarperCo (Score:1, Interesting)
In other words, in the process of considering the merits of this case, Thomas found himself in the position of having to weigh the arguments of the plaintiffs, who weren't paying him anything, against the arguments of an organization representing a client which is personally paying him over a million dollars. That's a huge conflict of interest.
The article states that:
What made HarperCollins decide to pay 10-20 times the going rate for a Supreme Court memoir publishing contract? Is Clarence Thomas that terrific a writer that his memoirs are worth 20 times as much as Rehnquist's memoirs? Does he have a long, distinguished career as a Justice? Is he the author of any major opinions? Is he a guiding force on the court? Is the public clamoring for his memoirs?
What could have possibly inspired HarperCollins to dump such an insanely overgenerous publishing advance in Thomas' lap on the eve of the Eldred decision?
Thomas was either crooked as hell for taking the money, or ignorant as hell for not making the connection. He should at the very least have recused himself. It wouldn't have affected the outcome. The fact that he didn't is inexcusable. It's just another sorry chapter in Clarence Thomas' spectacularly undistinguished and disgraceful career as a Supreme Court Justice.