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UK Home Office plan: ID Chips in Everything 223

Posted by michael from the infopocalypse dept.
LauraLolly writes "The BBC ran an article on how booksellers in the UK hope to use Radio Frequency ID chips to report on the entire life cycle of a book, including ownership and second-hand sales. There were throw-away lines about how the Home Office plans to use these chips in all goods, and their current use in U. S. libraries. And you thought that voluntary medical chips were bad..."
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UK Home Office plan: ID Chips in Everything More

UK Home Office plan: ID Chips in Everything

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  • Buy your books... (Score:5, Funny)

    by danamania ( 540950 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @01:57PM (#3506494)
    Buy a book legitimately

    walk out of the shop

    take it home
    microwave it on high for 15 seconds

    enjoy :)

    a grrl & her server [danamania.com]

    • Re:Buy your books... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by alienmole ( 15522 )
      Darn, you just ruined the market for my EMP blaster [slashdot.org], which message will now no doubt be modded down as redundant and generally ignorant and uncreative...

    • 18 years late... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by The Monster ( 227884 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @04:01PM (#3506938) Homepage
      take it home microwave it on high for 15 seconds
      Be arrested for circumventing protocols designed by the Ministry of Truth to facilitate 'recall' of books in need of 'correction'...

      After all, the UK is Oceania, isn't it?

      • "After all, the UK is Oceania, isn't it?" - eh? I know we're surrounded by water but that doesn't make us a place called Oceania!
      • Be arrested for circumventing protocols designed by the Ministry of Truth to facilitate 'recall' of books in need of 'correction'...

        After all, the UK is Oceania, isn't it?

        Doubleplus ungood, but thanks for playing. The UK is Airstrip One, part of Oceania, one of the three superstates together with Eastasia and Eurasia. Oceania includes the territories that oldthinkers know as North and South America, Britain, Australia, and the southern portions of Africa.

        Please report to MiniLuv (the Ministry Of Love) for your malreporting and crimethinking against the Party and Ingsoc. For members of the Brotherhood, such as yourself, Room 101 awaits.

        Remember, Big Brother loves you.

        War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.

        (Check out http://www.newspeakdictionary.com for more, including the full text of 1984.)
        • The UK is Airstrip One, part of Oceania
          But if you reread my original statement:
          After all, the UK is in Oceania, isn't it?
          you'll see that it was quite correct. The oldthink UK has always been part of Oceania. And, despite your
          feeble attempts to charge me with crimethinking by eliminating the word 'in' when you quoted me, the word 'in'
          has always been part of my original statement. Any transcript that omits that word must be in error, and the
          appropriate Ministry of Truth agents will be disciplined for dereliction of duty for not having corrected this omission.

    • Buy a book
      microwave it on high for 15 seconds

      Damn it! Now I have to go out and buy a new microwave.

      My course book Blasting and Demolition came packaged with sample materials.

      -

    • A better idea (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Darby ( 84953 )
      Bring the book to the counter, let them ring it up and pay for it.
      Then rip the chip out drop it on the counter and say loudly enough for nearby customers to hear (not the whole store, yelling just makes you look loony), "Just because I purchase a book from you does not entitle you to track me everywhere I take it, so you can keep this".

      Generating bad feeling for the store stupid enough to do this works better than just disabling one.

      • The chip will probably be embedded in the book's cover, in the same way that magnetic anti-theft coils are hidden in battery packaging, razor blade boxes and, for all I know, book covers. So to remove the chip you'll have to rip the cover off the book, which means you won't be able to re-sell it, which means you'll always be listed as the book's owner, which means They will no longer need to track the ownership of the book. :-/
      • How's this instead: Buy the book. Take it to a library and swap it for one of theirs.

        Oh, wait, now you're in possesion of a stolen library book. Nevermind.

  • I predict a small but strong market in EMP blasters - just run your books through, and The Man will no longer be able to track them...

    And to think there was controversy over the subpoena of Monica Lewinsky's bookstore receipts - what an innocent time that was!

    • I have a feeling that the punishment for destroying ID chips will be greater than the punishment for the crime they are supposed to stop.

      Look at the RIP act (the encryption key one). Say you are coordinating an assault on a convenience store and your communications with your partners in crime are encrypted. The crime will cost you 1-2 years in jail, but if you choose not to give them the evidence to prosecute you by not turning over your encryption keys, you'll get 4 years.

      Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?
      • Look at the RIP act (the encryption key one). Say you are coordinating an assault on a convenience store and your communications with your partners in crime are encrypted. The crime will cost you 1-2 years in jail, but if you choose not to give them the evidence to prosecute you by not turning over your encryption keys, you'll get 4 years.

        Interesting - I'm thinking this might not be possible quite so directly in the U.S., where the Constitution's Fifth Amendment allows one to avoid self-incrimination. Turning over one's encryption keys would seem to qualify!

        • Re:The next market opportunity... (Score:1, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward
          The 5th protects you from testifying against yourself, not concealing evidence. If you locked papers in a box, they could force you to give them the key.

      • Re:RIP (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Denny ( 2963 )

        On the other hand, if you're running a paedophile ring or something equally nasty, that should get you a long sentence, say 20 years or whatever, then refusing to hand over your encryption keys will get you 4 years instead of handing them over for the full 20.

        So this law has given people a fairly easily exploitable Get Out of Jail Quicker card...

        Regards,
        Denny

    • I've got a really good EMP blaster already, It's this amazing device called a microwave.

      Ooops, I guess that's radiation. I wonder what 10 minutes on 1000 Watts would do... It could be the latest book craze, reading on those cold winter nights.
  • Or in front of the bulk eraser should solve that RFID problem quite handily for you.
    • In a previous slashdot sumission on RFID Tags I had put forth this very same idea. It was shot down on the grounds that it would only affect magnetic devices and not RF devices. I suppose if RF Tags only use discrete logic or EPROMs then this would be true.

      Of course the Microwave tactic would only seem to me to be feasible if it generates enough heat to melt the components.

      Does anyone know of any reference material on what environment factors RF Tags can operate within?
      • Have you ever seen what happens to a CD when you put it in the microwave? That's what that Microwave at work is there for (I wouldn't suggest doing this at the house if you have an SO -- it'll lead to a seriously pissed off SO. Especially if you microwave their Barbera Streisand CD...)

        I don't think any consumer electronics could survive in that environment. Maybe some NASA equipment could...

      • You're not destroying the electronics by heat, you're inducing a huge amount of current in it, instantly frying all electronics. The RF thing necessarily has an antenna lead (probably very short, but there) so that it can pick up the tiny RF signal that it uses for power. Now, you're feeding it many thousands of times more power than it's designed to take.
        Stick a CD or pop-tart wrapper in the microwave sometime and see what happens. The arcs are caused by the high voltage induced in the conductive parts.
        BTW this won't hurt the microwave but it does stink.
  • I was just thinking I really need a whole lot more electromagnetic energy going through my skull.

    This is wonderful news!

    KingPrad

  • Hmm (Score:4, Funny)

    by NiftyNews ( 537829 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @02:03PM (#3506525) Homepage
    They plan to put them in everything, eh?

    So where can I buy ID chips for my ID chips? "This ID chip belongs to NiftyNews, please don't spoof me."
  • The article didn't say how strong these things are. Will, say, a few seconds in a microwave oven damage them? "Cookbook" might make for a good pro-privacy slogan.
    • Another part not covered is sales from one person to another not involving a store. In America we have yard/garage sales, which is when people sell there old unwanted stuff to other people. This would require everybody to have a reader/writer for this chip if they wanted to do a yard sales. Otherwise, someone might think you stole the book--even if you bought it legally from someone.

  • All goods (Score:3, Funny)

    by MarkusQ ( 450076 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @02:06PM (#3506537) Journal
    ...Home Office plans to use these chips in all goods...

    That should be fun. Even assuming that "all goods" excludes things like food, there are still a wide range of products that I sure wouldn't want to track.

    --- MarkusQ

  • Lets make this open source!

  • Please, not more of this crap... (Score:5, Informative)

    by slipgun ( 316092 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @02:10PM (#3506551)
    The UK government already want to put something in your car which tracks your movements (and there is a camera system which more or less does just that on the M25). The police are already entitled to break up a meeting of more than three people on a whim (Prevention of Terrorism Act 2000). They can see what you are looking at on the net, they control who gets to own weapons (apart from criminals, of course). And now they want to control what books you can read. (No, I know that this article didn't mention that, but seriously, of course they're going to try and do it if they think they can). Blunkett is a dangerous man, and I am so afraid of what this government is trying to do that I am going to be voting for The Other Lot next time round.

    I am really starting to hate what this country is becoming. Is it any better over your side of the pond? Failing that, maybe it's time to move to the Far East...
    • Come on. We need to fight eurasia. Big Brother must stop all terrorists at all costs. Infact yous sure sound like one and need to go to the ministry of love for physic evaluation. WHat? Slipgun who? He doesn't exist and he never did exist? Anyone who says so otherwise is a terrorist and we need mics in every home to make sure no one ever heard of this guy. after all who opposes big brother? I can't think of anyone who ever existed who did.
    • The bit about the police breaking up meetings of more than 3 people was the 'Criminal Justice' bill. There was a big stink at the time but the government just had the newspapers print that only 'anarchists and criminals' didn't support the bill.

      Beware if you have more than a couple of relatives over for christmas... the police now have the right to break your door down and arrest you.
    • Atleast you vote, which I did too. I live in Hilsea, Portsmouth, which was won by the conservative (for the benefit of non-uk readers, right-wing) party on the strength of two votes. (neither of which were mine) I've never missed an election, but with four out of five people not even bothering to vote, we have a problem.

      On a related note, however, the BBC is running a story about how smart tickets will be being introduced on the London Underground. [bbc.co.uk] If these can work from a few feet away, how many lamp-posts, bollards, and other street furniture will turn into covert tracking devices?


    • Is it any better over your side of the pond?

      You can't even drink a Coke without being hassled by the police in the US. I'm serious. They come and check to see if you've slipped something alcoholic in it. And woe betide you in the States if you walk through the street with an alcoholic beverage. The mistake is to take the lid off. If you leave the lid on it looks like you've just come out of McDonalds so it's OK.
    • ...Blunkett is a dangerous man...

      Blunket (current UK Home Secretary, ie the government minister responsible for amongst other things the criminal justice system and the police) is not the primary problem. I wouldn't even say that the problem lies primarily in his department, the government's Home Office, despite its prediliction for using any and all pretexts to restrict civil liberties and reduce the accountability of itself and its agents. The basic underlying problem is that the UK's unwritten constitution is based (simplifying very considerably) on the concept that authority derives from the monarch, and that ministers of the crown are exercising this royal prerogative under the oversight of the crown's subjects - not citizens - through their representatives elected to Parliament.

      Unfortunately, Parliament is now typically dominated by the party of government and has long ceased to be a check on the executive, which in the current Blair administrations is effectively equivalent to the Prime Minister and a small number of senior ministers and other cronies who have the PM's ear, for one reason or another. And as for Mr Blair: he's so utterly convinced in the rightness of what he's doing and that it's for the good of everyone that he's effectively uncontrollable. He's the government, and he's here to help you. Shudder and run.

      You might want to consider just moving to the European mainland. There's a reasonable choice of states which aren't organised as elected dictatorships, and there's even one (Switzerland) where the citizens have direct authority to make decisions at the ballot box. As a Brit, of cource, you won't get to vote, just pay the taxes :-(

  • se7en (Score:2, Interesting)

    by __aajqwr7439 ( 239321 )

    from what i understand, they're already doing this. it's how they caught kevin spacey.

    SOMERSET: For a long time, the F.B.I.'s been hooked into the library system, keeping accurate records.

    MILLS: What? Assessing fines?

    SOMERSET: They monitor reading habits. Not every book, but certain ones are flagged. Books about... let's say, how to build a nuclear bomb, or maybe Mein Kampf. Whoever takes out a flagged book has their library records fed to the F.B.I. from then on.

    xox,
    dead nancy
    • There are a lot of other uses for this UK chip plan--install readers for them in public places, and you can identify people carrying "problem" books, i.e. those promoting political discord, and track their movements.

  • I'd assume that after you bought the book, it would be illegal to simply remove the device. At least here in the states it could possibly be seen as a violation of the DMCA.

    Overall, I don't have a problem with people wanting to prevent theft, but I do have a problem with them continuing to track the book after its sold. Why do the powers that be insist on taking every last bit of privacy away from me?

    • As i sit back and relax for a good read wearing my tin-foil cap, i'll just have to resort to wrapping my books in tin-foil as well.

      It should work fine right up until the courts rule that tin-foil is a circumvention device under the DMCA...

      once that happens the aliens will finally control us all!
    • How would they know you removed it?
    • The DMCA is not the Digital Millenium Theft Act. This does not protect copyrights, thus it can be removed. Of course if you do remove them, you better save the reciepts because removing them would look pretty suspicious when you get accused of stealing them. Of course new leigsttion could make the removal illegal.

  • Home Library Use (Score:2, Interesting)

    by wsloand ( 176072 )
    I personally think that this would be a really good and easy way to make my home library catalog. I could just hold up my rf scanner and get the info direct from the books themselves.
    • True, but I'll stick with the existing UPC codes and my declawed CueCat (thanks, digitalcovergence, and may you rot in hell), thank you very much.
      • Instead of the UPC, use the ISBN number. It's much quicker to identify the book if you check it out to a friend who fails to return it. Then you can bill for the replacement in court.
        • UPC product codes don't have enough digitsto encode every book uniquely. Books encoded using UPC usually have only a code for the producer, and the price, eg the book I have in front of me is ISBN 0-553-58150-3, and has UPC of 076783-00699, and costs $6.99.

          EAN codes on the other hand are 13 digits long, and there is a direct 1 to 1 mapping between ISBNs and EAN codes, the same book has an EAN of 9780553-581508, which is the ISBN with the prefix of 78, and the check digit.

          On most paperbacks, the UPC is on the back cover, while the EAN is on the inside of the front cover. ON hardbacks, usually they only have an EAN, on the back cover.

  • Actually I didn't think that (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Henry V .009 ( 518000 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @02:18PM (#3506582) Journal
    I didn't think that voluntary medical chips were that bad, actually. There are different reasons to give up privacy. We can give up privacy for commercial reasons (all the supermarkets nearby where I live issue frequent shopper cards so they can monitor everything I buy -- I hate it). We can give up privacy for law enforcement reasons (depends on how much you trust your government). And there are a myrid of other reasons we can give up privacy.

    I don't think that anything that encroaches on privacy is automatically bad. In fact, I'd have to say that encroachmetnts on privacy are only generally wrong because the possibility of demonstrable harm as a result of invasion of privacy can generally be shown to be a real possibility.

    In specific cases I can support a mass (usually voluntary) invasion of privacy.

    Police states are generally bad because of the baggage that comes along with them. Abuse of power, lack of freedoms, what not. They aren't bad because of the two words "police state".

    If technology has progressed far enough to give us the positives of very effective law enforcement and monitoring without the baggage, well more power to it! As a first step, I would support voluntarily allowing tracking systems to be implanted (or worn like ankle bracelets) for the purposes of more effective protection from murders and kidnappers and what not. I think that our government's legal systems -- though not nearly perfect -- have progressed far enough to permit systems like these to be used without bringing along the baggage of fascism and totalitarianism. There is no possibility that they would be 100% effective, but neither would they be ineffectual.
    • They aren't bad because of the two words "police state".

      I see where you're going with this, but I dissagree. Police states are bad because the WILL get abused, not because "sometimes abuse happens within a Police State". This is where it's extremely critical to agree on the fundamental principle that we as humans are inherintly (Evil|Greedy|Bad|etc.). A lot of systems would work great (eg: Communism) if this weren't the case.

    • Re:Actually I didn't think that (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ciole ( 211179 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @03:16PM (#3506790)
      If technology has progressed far enough to give us the positives of very effective law enforcement and monitoring without the baggage, well more power to it!

      Also being against murder, i can see where you're coming from. However, "very effective law enforcement" is bad to the extent that laws are poorly written, oppressive, or otherwise unjust. We need limited means of technological enforcement of crimes until the laws that define them are deserving of "very effective enforcement".

      There's a reason the abolition movement was closely tied with the (then illegal) Underground Railroad. If people-chipping tech had been available back then, social forces for change would have been greatly hampered. No Frederick Douglas, for example, whose freedom was a result of breaking an unjust law. Remember forced sterilization in VA? Japanese internment? This was all within the last hundred years - many people now living remember these things. i expect that the War on (Some) Drugs will come to be seen the same way. Technology in law enforcement is a major threat to our civil rights.

      Now, your post was pretty reasonably written, as you said, "depends on how much you trust your government". But how much can one trust a government in principle?
    • You don't understand how the world works. "Very effective law enforcement" is a bad thing, because so much of the smooth functioning of a human society depends on things slipping through the cracks.

      Perfect enforcement requires perfect laws, and you should thank your lucky stars that enforcement isn't perfect. The monitor in your car that bills your credit card and charges penalties to your drivers license and insurance rates would have had you stuck at home by now for speeding too much, and you wouldn't be able to cheat and drive anyway, because of the genetic detectors. You wouldn't be able to get work but you wouldn't be able to steal or cheat to get money, either.

      Take a look at the economic figures for the "black market" or "shadow economy" in any developed country, or the numbers of illegal aliens that economies depend on. If you think of these as simply problems that are waiting to be solved, I have news for you: with all due respect, you're a latent totalitarian fascist, but you just haven't realized it yet.

    • Police states are generally bad because of the baggage that comes along with them. Abuse of power, lack of freedoms, what not. They aren't bad because of the two words "police state".

      There is the fundermental problem of "who watches the watchers?" It would be utterly incredible for corruption not to appear very rapidly in such a situation. About the only credible way to avoid this is something like David Brin's idea where information about anybody is available to anyone. Anyone can become a "watcher", but there is no special watcher class immune from being watched over.
  • And soon, there'll be new DMCA-aware photocopier who'll report the copyright infringers to the BSA/SPA/CIA/FEMA... when detecting such a book chip in the item being copied?
  • It looks like Orwells ability to divine our political future was dead on but his predictions on when technology would actually enable it was about 40-50 years off :-(

  • Practicality? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by sisukapalli1 ( 471175 )
    How would a "second hand sale" be recorded in a book? What about subsequent sales? Would I have to go through an agency (ala dept. motor vehichles service -- DMV) where there will be a "change of ownership form" every time someone sells a book? Will I have to wait in long lines as I do at the DMV? Will they justify all this by saying "reading is not a right, it is a privilege?"

    About microwaving books, will a person be fined if his book is "not standards compliant"? Will there be an annual inspection (like motor vehicles) for each book?

    Since it is the "Mother's day", I will not call the advocates of this policy sons of ******.

    S
  • Move along citizens, there's nothing to see here.

  • "Ownership" of goods (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Graspee_Leemoor ( 302316 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @02:34PM (#3506635) Homepage Journal
    They can't make it illegal to take out or destroy the chip without seriously changing the way things are sold.

    Right now, if I buy a book I can quite happily rip the cover off and even re-bind it with all the pages in the wrong order if I want, it's my book.

    Are we heading for a future where nothing is ever owned ?

    This computer game is yours, but you aren't allowed to reverse-engineer it.

    This book is yours but you're not allowed to tamper with its chip.

    This movie is yours but you're not allowed to watch it in company, or more than once a month.

    This CD is yours but if you want to put it on your mp3 player you have to pay again.

    This TV programme is being beamed at you, but if you watch it you have to watch all of it, including the adverts.

    Do you see how close we are ?

    graspee

  • What a load of crap, next thing you know, you will have to break a seal before you open the book saying "by breaking this seal you agree to all terms and conditions of this book" these T&Cs will obviously include not damaging or removing the chip.. except ofcourse by "accident". People will reverse engineer the chips, build their own re-programmers and sell the books with new serial numbers, just like absolutely every single stupid protection system ever made. Although, on another note, these chips could be kinda cool - for finding lost stuff, just stick a chip on your tv remote, fav. pen or wallet and you can use your little tracking device to find it down the back of the sofa. Someone could mass-manufacture them on sticky things so you could just stick them on stuff. That would be uber.. otherwise... who cares, i'll just "accidently" stick my books in the microwave, before realising, after a few seconds, my mistake and taking them out again.. perfectly legal.
  • Justification for piracy of books on the internet: Found

    But seriously, this is another one of those brilliant corporate ideas that fuels internet piracy, just like $20 for a music CD with a couple of good songs and several rushed throw-away tracks on it, the movie industry's insistence on stopping the horrific evil of importing DVDs that aren't available in your country, and several different industry groups' attempts to rob us of any fair use rights, or in some cases, any rights that we might have at all (especially in the case of the artists).

    And they're going to go crying right to their legislators when internet piracy suddenly picks up a week or two after their bone-headed idea is implemented...

  • More info on RFID Tags (Score:3, Informative)

    by bihoy ( 100694 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @03:06PM (#3506746)
    The Fowler Company [fvfowler.com], makers of the TagLogic RFID Tagging System [fvfowler.com] says on their product page:

    Tags retain data for a minimum of 10 years, and have a minimum of 100,000 read/write cycles. They are impervious to electrical noise, magnetism, dirt and grime and all but the most extreme temperature conditions.
    Apparently these devices can withstand temperatures of up to 105C!
    • A friend of mine was working on something like this tag. His company was designing a tag which was passive like the Fowler tag, but I think it did not have any rewrite capabilities, and he said the range was on the order of tens of meters. He said the tags were nearly invincible and cost only a couple cents apiece. This sort of thing would be much better for widespread usage than the other tags, although you couldn't record on the tag when it was sold... you'd have to do that on the internet or something.

    • News at 11: Illegal oven found in hackers lair (Score:4, Funny)

      by zenyu ( 248067 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @03:29PM (#3506835)
      Police say the felon heated his books to
      200C to disable the rights management chip.
      [Ad]
      Police say he provided the illegal heating
      service to as many as 10 other criminals
      and this is his third strike.
      [Ad]
      His previous two convictions were for reading texts that were no longer in print and removing
      jingle players from books to block part
      of the advertizing.
      [Ad]
      His crimes are estimated to have cost 15 Billion dollars in lost revenues according to The Corporation(TM).
      [Ad]
      The death penalty has been granted, but the judge has reserved the right to choose the method. His trial is scheduled for Sept of 2008.
      [Ad]
      This station is a wholly owned subsidiary of AOL-Time-Warner-Microsoft-Disney(TM), which is a wholly owned subsidiary of the US-UK Government(TM), which is a wholly owned subsidiary of The Corporation(TM).
      [Ad]
      All rights reserved.
      [Ad]

  • Look, let's get this straight, once and for all: (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Rogerborg ( 306625 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @03:17PM (#3506794) Homepage
    • Information is not an object. Tagging it is an attempt to turn it into an object. Tagging of data adds a false layer of psuedo-reality with the clear intent to turn information into property, to restrict it and to create an artificial market. Tagging of data is inherently bad.
    • A physical object like a book is a unique entitry. It can be bought, sold, owned, given, lent... and stolen. Tagging it just helps to identify that it's a particular object (which it is). It's neutral information, with no inherent evil purpose.

    Tagging a physical book is not sinister, it's not anti-privacy, it's not 1984. Nobody is going to care - ever - that you bought the latest Pratchett, then sold it to your friend, who donated it to a charity shop, who then sold it to a guy who gets drug conviction. There is no nightmare "Enemy of the State" scenario, because it's small potatoes. What this tagging is for is exactly what it say it's for: to identify specific objects to help convict habitual or large scale thieves. That's all it will do, and that's good, because it means those of us who do pay for books won't have to pay for the stolen ones too.

    I guess if we don't have at least one anti-privacy conspiracy story on a weekend, we have to find one, huh?

    • Re:Look, let's get this straight, once and for all (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Nobody is going to care - ever - that you bought the latest Pratchett, then sold it to your friend, who donated it to a charity shop, who then sold it to a guy who gets drug conviction.


      Blah, blah, blah -- I've got nothing to hide, so why should I worry?

      Please stop with this tired anti-privacy and anti-freedom argument. Truth is, if anybody implements any tracking device on anything I own, it's out the door immediately.

      Is owning stuff really _that_ important, for us to accept a lasso around our necks?
        • Blah, blah, blah -- I've got nothing to hide, so why should I worry? Please stop with this tired anti-privacy and anti-freedom argument

        You're creating a straw man to push your own agenda. That's not what I said, and it's not what I meant. This isn't just lack-of-evil, it's actively good, for you and for me.

        Instead of a (tired) knee jerk reaction of looking at this as "them" tagging "you", think of it as you being able to identify your stuff. Seeing as how that's exactly and only what it is.

        And don't quote me out of context. The important adjunct is: nobody will care about your purchases because it's small potatoes. If you believe for one second that law enforcement or government in the US don't already have the technology and the leglislation to track every single purchase, deposit and withdrawal that you make then you're living in a happy dream world. Your life is already transparent. You have no privacy. The only issue is whether "they" care enough to peel you like a grape, and whether they will use any of your activities as evidence against you. Chances are that they won't, but either way product tagging won't make a blind bit of difference to the information that the MiB can obtain about you.

    • Who on gods earh steals books, you can just go to your local library, take it of the shelf and read it if you need it that desperately, books stolen from libraries is more than paid for by the charges encured by late return fees, no one I know would ever concider copying more than a page or 2 from a book and the'll probably end up buying it anyway if it is of any use, and how would taging prevent someone copying a page or 2 anyway?

      It only helps comerce and the government, would you like to have been tracked geting a copy of a few books by the author Karl Marx during the last century? Do you want to get yet more junk mail because you happen to have bought 2 cook books in the past month?

      If so, I'm sure theres easier ways to achive your goals than taging every book sold from x point onwards.
        • Who on gods earh steals books

        People who cant punctuate or spel?

        Don't assume that because you wouldn't do it, it isn't done. Bookshops (and libraries) are full of small, portable items that are so easy to just slip into your jacket. The value is low enough that a significant minority of people might not even view it as "real" theft. Before you gasp in outraged horror, ask any office worker how they feel about liberating office supplies.

        Unrelated to this story, I heard an anecdote from a friend last week about casual bookstore theft: the mother of an errant child brought it back in to the bookstore to hand over a book that it had just slipped into its jacket. The child was about eight, and seemed utterly unrepentant, and the mother slammed the book down with a curt "Here's your book," then stormed off, as though it was the bookshop's fault that her offspring had taken it.

        The part that surprised my friend was that the mother had even brought it back. He says that most of the people they get browsing their books are the sort who have to follow the words with their fingers, and they lose a lot of stock to casual - sometimes very casual - theft. People often don't even bother hiding the books, they just calmly walk out of the shop with them.

        Now, tagging won't help to catch the most casual thieves, but if they do it once too often, it will help to convict them. Perhaps you think that this is a bad thing? Or perhaps you're confused about whether the purchases that you make on a credit/debit card are already logged and tagged to you. They are, and that information is already available to law enforcement [salon.com].

        Tagging of books (or any retail object) doesn't breach any privacy that you already have (which is almost none). It is targetted exactly and only at actual thieves.

        Regarding your argument buying Karl Marx, it's very clever and sinister sounding, but considering that the USA already ban books [ala.org] it's overly hypothetical. How about finding out how few rights you have now rather than imagining lesser evils in the future?

    • Re:Look, let's get this straight, once and for all (Score:5, Insightful)

      by hughk ( 248126 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @05:29PM (#3507263) Journal
      Nobody is going to care - ever - that you bought the latest Pratchett, then sold it to your friend, who donated it to a charity shop, who then sold it to a guy who gets drug conviction.
      Then why record which book I have bought and who has bought it later? Perhaps somebody might care that I have a copy of the Koran and the Los Alamos Primer? A word and a number, Farenheit 451.
          • Nobody is going to care - ever - that you bought the latest Pratchett, then sold it to your friend, who donated it to a charity shop, who then sold it to a guy who gets drug conviction.
          Then why record which book I have bought and who has bought it later

        Sigh. So that when it's stolen, it can be uniquely identified so that the thief can be prosecuted, and so that it can be returned to you. It's quite clear from the article that this is the intent, and really, it's the only practical use. It can't be used to track goods moving from one retail purchaser to the next. It's not invasive, or sinister, it's for your protection.

        • Perhaps somebody might care that I have a copy of the Koran and the Los Alamos Primer?

        Are you aware of the definition of clinical paranoia? It's not specifically "they're out to get me!", it's generally seeing patterns that aren't there, attributing significance to insignificant things, particularly with regard to yourself. That's a pretty solipsistic attitude you've got there, buddy. Nobody cares about you. Nobody will ever care.

        That aside, how exactly does this identify you any more than it already does? If you buy a book with a card, the purchase (against the book code) is already recorded (gasps of horror!). If you buy with cash, you're anonymous in either case. You think that we're going to ban anonymous cash purchases? OK, then say that, and we'll debate that.

        • A word and a number, Farenheit 451.

        Yes, that's a very nice work of fiction. Rather than worrying about speculative censorship and information control, why not worry about the books that are banned in the USA right now [ala.org]?

        • That's a pretty solipsistic attitude you've got there, buddy. Nobody cares about you. Nobody will ever care.
          Sorry they do care. In this post cold-war world there are a lot of underemployed intelligence operatives who like to see conspiracies. It doesn't matter whether you are in the US, the former USSR or anywhere imbetween. Is this all protection?

          Are you aware of the definition of clinical paranoia?
          Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get me?

          Now of those law enforcement agencies, who do we trust with an all-encompassing portfolio, why people like John Hanssen. Please believe me, I have probably travelled a little wider than you, and giving the government a lot of extra information is never a good thing unless they really have a specific case to need it.

          Tagging objects is a fine idea, but I would like to know where the information stops. Why do they need to know what an object is if it is physically in front of them?

    • Nobody is going to care - ever - that you bought the latest Pratchett, then sold it to your friend, who donated it to a charity shop, who then sold it to a guy who gets drug conviction. There is no nightmare "Enemy of the State" scenario, because it's small potatoes.

      Kenneth Starr's office subpoenaed Monica Lewinsky's book receipts from a bookstore she had frequented. That was a classic case of investigating someone for reasons other than the interests of society. Bureaucrats can be dangerous people - just because you've never experienced that directly doesn't mean it can't happen.

      You only have to go back to the 1950's, around the time to which the current article applies, to see a truly egregious example, in McCarthyism. The people who think "that can't happen again" don't realize how every one of the freedoms that are chipped away at day by day bring us closer to the day when some person or organization, well-meaning or otherwise, will find themselves in a position to abuse the end result in unfortunate ways.

      In the Jurassic Park series of movies, there's the line about "life will find a way". You could make a similar statement about "abuses of power will find a way". History has shown this over and over.

      I, for one, will destroy any tagging device I didn't specifically request, on principle. I'm no Luddite, either - I'm a software developer who develops financial services systems, and I love the concept of greater automation in our financial markets (an area of interest of mine) and in our lives. But another cliche is "with great power, comes great responsibility".

      Unfortunately, governments, corporations and individuals have shown time and time again that they will abuse that responsibility, if given the opportunity. Don't give them any more of an opportunity than they already have, and certainly not without good reason. There's no good reason to electronically tag books.

    • Perhaps the government can install readers for these in public places, you can identify people carrying "problem" books, i.e. those promoting political discord, and track their movements.

      Anyone from the UK here? You guys are saps for government intrusion. You don't even live in a democracy, but you think you do.
        • Anyone from the UK here? You guys are saps for government intrusion. You don't even live in a democracy, but you think you do

        I'll bite. I (the poster you're responding to) am a UK citizen. Now, let's see. We can be sued for contributory copyright infringement for bypassing DRM [hmso.gov.uk], but we didn't make it criminal offence [loc.gov]. We don't already habitually hand over book purchase records to law enforcement [salon.com]. We don't have banned book lists [ala.org]. We have exactly the same fucked up first-past-the post electoral system as the US, but we have five parties that regularly win seats in parliament [tagish.co.uk], and we don't return 90% of incumbents [ala.org], nor did we choose to re-invent the idea of a near-absolute head of state appointed not by democratic process, but by a council of picked power brokers (if you know your history, the 2000 Presidential election was fascinatingly similar to the Anglo Saxon selection of a monarch by the witan [uta.edu], a council of aethelings and eoldermen appointed, influenced by and loyal to various factions in contention for the throne).

        There never has been a country, state or city run as a democracy. Athens came close - if you were a free man of property (the premise that both US and UK systems were also based on) - but they got sick of governing themselves and executing advocates of free speech [geocities.com] and more or less acquiesed in their own transformation to a dictatorship. The US system is heavily influenced by Athens, and even more so by Rome and it's wacky dagger-in-the-back machinations. Hurrah!

        Given your .sig, I'll infer that your primary argument is that in the US, you're allowed to own guns. I'm using that wording advisedly. You are allowed to own guns. As long as you haven't been convicted of a crime, and you don't want a concealed weapon, or a fully automatic weapon, or a handgun with a clip in excess of ten rounds, or live in New York and aren't (de facto) employed in government or the legal system, or in any way want arms (not guns specifically) that could actually be used for the explicitely intended purpose, which is "A well regulated Militia" [constitution.org]. You've already lost the gun argument, they're just being taken away (from honest men and women) one shell at a time by men and women with heavily armed bodyguards, until only criminals will have guns.

        Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that the UK is much better than the US. The UK is a nasty, mean little country, but in practical terms, i.e. in practicing what we preach - we are still a little better, although I freely concede that we get worse every day under the auspices of Mr President-Elect Tony Blair.

        New Zealand knocks us both into a cocked hat, of course. But let's not go there, it's always embarrasing when you think you're on the high ground only to find someone dropping moral rocks on your swollen head.

  • Pay up! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by faring ( 547691 ) on Sunday May 12, 2002 @04:35PM (#3507099)
    And once the Movie/Book/Music publishers can track second-hand sales of their products, any guesses as to how long it would take before they start demanding royalties on those sales as well? I'm betting you could measure it in nanoseconds.
    • long it would take before they start demanding royalties on those sales as well? I'm betting you could measure it in nanoseconds.

      Nanoseconds? Nahhh...

      If you stab a dinosaur in the tail it takes a few seconds for the message to reach the brain.

      -

  • The Ultimate Goal (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DarkHelmet ( 120004 ) <mark AT seventhcycle DOT net> on Sunday May 12, 2002 @06:49PM (#3507540) Homepage
    I think the ultimate use of this isn't finding out the life cycle of books, but to track the momvement of information itself.

    Imagine what it would be like if a copy of The Anarchist's Cookbook was tracked to everyone who owned a copy of it. The book is Flagged (much in the same way as a slashdot post) as offensive, and the owner of the book is given a point against him.

    Combined with implanted medical chips, this could be a nightmare. Too many "bad points" on the medical chip, and then you're stopped at airports and train stations.

    But this could be taken to the next level as well. What if you're applying for a job as a teacher, and they see that you like pornography a little too much? Or if you read books about bringing back corporal punishment? They'll either refuse to hire you, or fire you on the premise that you *might* either have sex or hit one of your students.

    That's the ultimate goal, overall. Seek out all the "bad" people before something happens. Make anyone with different ideas public outcasts. Turn everyone into either corporate or government conformists.

    It's never, EVER going to work. True Deviants and terrorists always know how to get around these sorts of things. Information will always be free... if you know where to look for it. The goal is to keep as many people in the dark of that fact.

    But when I think of a motto for these people, I think of a line from the movie Sneakers to justify them:

    "No more secrets, Marty."

  • I'd cut the chip out of the book. Track my reading, will ya?

    One other thing: if the chip's memory is capacious, it occurs to me that you could put the e-text of the book itself in there. Which kind of raises the question: why print the book if you can release it in e-format?
  • According to the article, the objective is to reduce the incidence of books "walking off the booksellers' shelves" without being paid for, and to provide a way of tracing those that do.

    For this, a simple tag that says "this book is part of the stock of such-and-such a bookseller, and has not been paid for" is sufficient. Buy the book, the tag gets cancelled. If you want to, use the tag to record "this belongs to me, if lost, please return". That's fine. Your choice.

    Nothing more is needed to achieve the stated objectives. Anything more is there for the benefit of third parties, and needs to be examined very carefully for potential misuse before being accepted.

    "We regret that owing to circumstances outside our control, 1984 has been somewhat delayed."

    • We've already got systems which detect people trying to steal books. They work on the same principle, except they don't uniquely track the book. There is no advantage in changing the system to prevent thieft - anyone who defeats the existing system can defeat the new system.
  • With more detail!
    And it was rejected - how so?

  • http://www.plans-kits.com/

    Speed cameras? Ooops they don't seem to be working.

  • I was planning on doing this to all my stuff, anyway. I even looked up the chip to use [ti.com]. I was going to build a hand-held transmitter so I could find that pesky blue screwdriver by waving the transmitter around. I was also going to put coils around the ceilings of each room, so I could interrogate each room separately. Cool, huh? Want to find a particular item in a stack of boxes? No problem, wave the transmitter or interrogate the room and find the box the item is in.

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