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Peer-to-Peer Networks Blocked in NZ 382

mjl writes: "It seems that Time Warner is not the only ISP that limits bandwidth of residential customers. In New Zealand, Telecom is also blocking the use of well known P2P applications. What Telecom fails to recognise is that these people are pushing the envelope of what the Internet can do, and will drive the technology economy in years to come."
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Peer-to-Peer Networks Blocked in NZ

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  • by LadyLucky ( 546115 ) on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:01AM (#3357100) Homepage
    Here, all DSL modems must go through Telecom's networks, as they own the lines, the exchanges, everything. You always pay around NZ$30 (around US$13) per month for the privilege of a DSL enabled line. The remaining NZ$35 or so you pay to whomever your ISP is, which is for many people Xtra. This gives you a 128kb connection, (in theory) unlimited traffic.

    It seems Xtra has done this throttling, but that won't cause problems for those of us who dont you use Xtra (that's me!). It seems silly to say "people are using too much bandwidth, so rather than capping bandwidth (like most do), we'll try a round about way of doing that...". Strange. If the problem is too much traffic, well, then limit the traffic.

  • by 91degrees ( 207121 ) on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:08AM (#3357121) Journal
    Of course they are. The amount of piracy throught these networks is incredible. In fact, the non-pirate data is almost non-existent.

    By allowing their users to use these to pirate music, videos and software could result in the BSA, the RANZ and the NZMPA suing the ISP's for lost income. The court may even agree to partial damages. Even if the court only sides 10% with the IP industry, the cost to the ISP's could be unfeasably large.
  • Go TelstraSaturn (Score:3, Interesting)

    by freitasm ( 444970 ) on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:08AM (#3357122) Homepage
    What happened some time ago was a father complaining about the 10GB download in a month - his son was using AudioGalaxy... Then Telecom decided to block ports because of this - and bandwidth.

    I use TelstraClear cable-modem service. There's no port blocks and their Terms and Conditions tell me I can run any server I want - including pop3, smtp or http.

    Also, one can get a fixed IP instead of dynamic. Very handy...

    Just ditch Telecom NZ!
  • by rbeattie ( 43187 ) <russ@russellbeattie.com> on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:11AM (#3357132) Homepage
    No biggie... it just means that p2p clients will have to add in ports to their other forms of locating peers. For example, right now Gnutella queries well-known UltraPeers to prime the p2p pump and helps you locate peers around you (instead of spamming your network with random ping packages).

    Well, obviously this "priming" will have to switch to use port 80 if others are blocked, then the response servers can give your client information about the "port of the day".

    Personally, I think the P2P clients should use different ports for different uses. (And it's already enabled to change the port and client name in each Gnutella client). Music could have one port, eBooks on another, video another, and pr0n on another. This would be great so my quieries for "Bare Naked Ladies" brings up music instead of jpgs...

    -Russ

  • by silvaran ( 214334 ) on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:17AM (#3357145)
    They say they're "managing" the use of P2P apps, and that's all they say. Nothing about blocking. And you may still use these file sharing services, only you are subject to a restricted download. What did the writer say, sub-kb speeds? That's about what I get from most users on Kazaa.

    On a lucky streak, I can get several kb. A little more now that my winbox is masqed behind my linux box (and I'm not subject to windows crappy IP stack as the bottleneck). Xtra must really be doing some heavy filtering on their server side to discriminate against P2P apps, if that is the case. Consequently, my connection is DSL, I'm in Canada, and I usually get around 150kb on a good day.

    The reference to vampires and blood-sucking indivuduals gets tiresome. Talk about editorializing.
  • Er, what? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by IamTheRealMike ( 537420 ) on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:28AM (#3357178)
    What Telecom fails to recognise is that these people are pushing the envelope of what the Internet can do, and will drive the technology economy in years to come.

    No! The people who invented P2P apps maybe are pushing the envelope of what the net can do - but 95% of the people on the biggest P2P networks are just downloading free music. They're not pushing anything other than their luck, because they're basically massively abusing the system.

    I'd love to be in NZ right now! Now all the kiddies that think downloading music and burning it to CDs for their friends constitutes a "business" - like some people I know - have had their access blocked, it means better connections for everyone else who does in fact respect the law. I think this should happen more.

  • by Plug ( 14127 ) on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:29AM (#3357180) Homepage
    There has been a case in New Zealand where a user successfully took Telecom to court when he received a $7000 DSL bill on his Jetstream (pay-per-mb DSL) connection. His kids ran Morpheus, and of course it was sending files out left right and center. He didn't think he should have to pay for that, and neither did the judge it seems.

    A DDoS on a Jetstream customer has the potential to cost them many thousands of dollars.
  • p2p (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:44AM (#3357224)
    Yeah I guess the rampant music/software/movie piracy on P2P networks is going to be what is driving the new economy in years to come.

    Sure it's a generalisation, but I defy you to say that 95% of it isn't illegal use at this point in time.
  • by ukryule ( 186826 ) <slashdot&yule,org> on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:51AM (#3357250) Homepage
    OK. If the problem is that some users are hogging all the bandwidth, what about this for a solution:

    You monitor the total bandwidth usage over the month for each user. Then you adapt the priority of each connection dependent on the usage:
    User A has only used 2MB bandwidth this month, so you give their requests priority over User B who has already downloaded 200MBs.

    In prinicipal, this is easy and seems a fair solution - the more data you download the slower your connection becomes. I'm sure this has been thought of/implemented already - so why aren't ISPs using something like this?

  • not that it matters (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nzhavok ( 254960 ) on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:54AM (#3357259) Homepage
    not that it matters too much at the moment as telecoms most popular "high-speed" package is 128kb ADSL connection (about $30 US BTW), oh and apparently 128kb is too much for any single connection so they limit you on each particular file you download to about 56kb!!

    I used to have a high speed satellite connection through IHUG which would peek at about 2500kbps but then they did the stupidist thing they could do and capped it at 512MB per month! Thats write the high-speed, high bandwidth connection was capped at 512MB, which meant you could use your month quota in under 30 minutes, and still not get a single ISO.

    We are getting some faster connections through cable company saturn, they offer you higher speed connections such as 256kb or 512kb, however even though these cost more, the monthly data cap is a lot less. IIRC 128 was capped at 10GB and then the 256 (which costs more) was capped at 5GB. Saturn mainly targets businesses. Again that's not such a problem since only a small proportion of people are connected by this anyway. So in short, sure it's a hassle but the bandwidth here is so limited that it's no big deal anyway.
  • by PhilHibbs ( 4537 ) <snarks@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @06:55AM (#3357262) Journal
    If the problem is too much traffic, well, then limit the traffic.
    If I were in charge of doing this, I would be inclined to implement some kind of adaptive throttling, so the more you downloaded over the last week, the slower your downloads run. So, if you are a low-volume user that needs to get a big file, it comes down quickly. If you run a Gnutella server, a Freenet server, and soak up the rest with a bit of spidering, then your connection slows down to a crawl. I would introduce a higher-usage rate that doesn't slow down as much. These slowdown rates would be adjustable on a quarterly basis with three months notice of the throttle change.
  • This article... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Bnonn ( 553709 ) <bnonny@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @07:04AM (#3357289) Journal
    ...is garbage. I'm a bit disappointed in the standard of writing for the Herald, considering it's the largest newspaper in this country. Not only does the article not examine many sides of the issue, such as how many people are using Kazaa enough to be considered "vampires" (please, what a ridiculous term; this isn't even an editorial, it's a personal rant--stop throwing your toys out the cot Burton) and what Telecom's profit margins are on the service, but it blatantly omits several key points that turn the article into little more than fud.

    For example, Burton says in the article that he sometimes gets as little as 0.02 kiBps on Kazaa, and an average of less than 1 kiBps. Erm, entry for Duh Magazine, anyone? I mean, I'm only on dialup so I can't speak for 128k Jetstart, but I regularly get less than 1 kiBps even when my connection is completely idle. It's a huge p2p network; it's invariably pretty slow. Sure, the average he states does seem a bit low, and perhaps Telecom is throttling bandwidth a bit, but the range of download speeds he states (if we are to take his word; I see no actual figures) seem to indicate that there's something more at work that simply that. Assuming that sometimes bandwidth is throttled more and less, it's still disingenuous to suggest that the only cause for such slow downloads is due to Telecom.

    I also find it ridiculous that he suggests, "to be consistent Xtra [Telecom's ISP branch] should be limiting bandwidth used by Microsoft Update and Messenger software which act as servers too." Microsoft update is a necessary feature for many people, and neither it nor MSM, ICQ or IRC is going to be sucking anywhere near the bandwidth that filesharing apps do. This is either just a completely skewed viewpoint, or plain ignorance. In my view it's the latter, since Burton (the Herald IT editor) doesn't seem to even know enough to differentiate between GB (gigabytes) and Gb (gigabits).

    I'm no fan of Telecom. I hate them; they're manopolistic and have extremely poor service. But this isn't a valid reason to attack them. They state in the users' contract that running servers (incidentally, I question that webservers running on their service would account for even one hundredth of the bandwidth that p2p does, although Burton seems to imply otherwise) of any kind is unacceptable. Personally, while I think it would be courteous for Telecom to inform their customers that they will actively throttle p2p and server applications (and no, I don't think messenger programs can be classified as "servers" Mr Burton), I don't see how it's a requirement on their part, or a breach of contract as Burton suggests. If you're doing something with their service that you've agreed not to, I can't see how you can complain if they quietly ensure you can no longer do that thing.

    IANALawyer, so I can't speak for the legality of my opinion, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone with a more solid understanding of the technicalities.

  • Interesting snippet (Score:2, Interesting)

    by BenBenBen ( 249969 ) on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @08:59AM (#3357709)

    There was an interview with the legal representation for the IFPI [ifpi.org] on the BBC yesterday that I was listening to out the corner of my ear, discussing the "fall" in industry profits. The phrase that caught my attention was "we are going after the people that run these [P2P] networks, and the ISPs that allow access to them".

    This sounds a hell of a lot like we can expect to see, and be subjected to, things like this [theregister.co.uk] from our ISPs. Not a happy thought.

  • Re:Wrong (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tomstdenis ( 446163 ) <tomstdenis@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @09:10AM (#3357765) Homepage
    The problem though is when you start abusing it.

    Like if you started 8 air conditioners [in one house] in USCA you wouldn't make alot of friends. I wouldn't doubt there are laws concerning power usage [there are when there are water shortages].

    The problem they are trying to fix is that bandwidth is not an unlimited thing they have to give out.

    Of course, I would have addressed the problem differently. Instead of banning ports I would do dynamic capping. e.g. you get 500MB a day at full bandwidth. after that you get 1/4 bandwidth [or something like that]. That way you get

    a) no loss of connection
    b) stops bandwidth hogs
    c) doesn't arbitrarily block random ports

    Personally if I were an ISP I would make it something like 250MB full speed [512k/256k] then the rest at a lower speed [128k/64k] [this is all per day]. 250MB is more than enough to browse through webpages and chat. Its not nearly enough to be a elite haxor or something [e.g. dork on Kazaa].

    But what do I know, I'm just a kid who failed business in college...

    Tom
  • by Beliskner ( 566513 ) on Wednesday April 17, 2002 @11:46AM (#3358854) Homepage
    Per packet is too irrational. What price per packet will you set? Even one cent per packet is too much. Flat rate like AoL is the way to go
    Flat rate, ahh wonderful dreams. Uhh 10 bucks per Gigabyte peak time maybe, 5 bucks per Gigabyte off-peak, free at night. More ideally, proprietary MFC client app installed visible on the taskbar, communicates with a load-measuring server on the ISP, goes red at peak time (heavy traffic), yellow at off-peak, green at night (free)
    The internet isn't an electric company, nor a water company. The resources they're offering isn't as hard to produce and renew like those utilities. A better analogy is the cable company where access is a flat rate, but more can be bought for a price
    Agreed, bandwidth caps with extra $ for unlimited are best - easy to understand, BUT don't forget this article concerns a major ISP banning filesharing, and I get the feeling many others may follow, the ISPs have been bitchin' about filesharing bandwidth for quite some time so clearly they don't agree with you when you say that bandwidth is a lot easier to renew than electricity, it just seems easier to renew than electricity. Imagine a CCIE at your ISP watching a Cisco 12416 [cisco.com] running at 95% usage, or facing having to cost ordering a new OC-192 to the backbone. He sees 80% of the bandwidth is used by port 1214 (Kazaa). His feeling of panic would probably be the same as the electricity distributor in California last Summer. A price rise or shutting down P2P would be the choice facing him, and as we know some dumbass MBA-dropout-type manager will make the decision, not him.

    Either they meter it or they fully itemise it,
    "$500 for new Cisco Catalyst 6500, split between 300 downstream users one of which is you (because 10 of you are using bearshare excessively) => give us a cheque for 2 dollars, plus 3 new T1's to the backbone $1500 each per month split between 1000 users one of which is you => your monthly subscription will increase by $1.50. If you don't pay we'll take you to court" how long do you think it'll be before you're suing your neighbours? (then theoretically electric companies should charge for installing extra transformers - people of California you are requested and required to pay $1.8billion for a new power line for the grid between Utah and California plus $0.2billion for 300kV step-up and step-down transformer array. This is because Utah has 5GW excess generating capacity. Your share of the payment = $500.
    Itemised: 20 million people in California, $2billion cost => $2billion/20million = $500 per citizen. Please pay by Direct Debit or Credit card, thank you) hmmmm could this be a step towards Open Source Corporations?

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