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Java Programming Your Rights Online

JavaRanch gets Cease And Desist From Sun 41

Posted by timothy from the someone-patent-lawyermace dept.
demultiplexer writes: "JavaRanch, a not for profit, volunteer-driven site dedicated to Java and probably the world's most popular Java website outside Sun, received a "cease and desist" letter from Sun's lawyers earlier this year for alleged trademark violations. It is being asked to rename to something like "The Java(tm) Technology Ranch" or "The Ranch, a friendly place for Java(tm) technology greenhorns." Quite a mouthful. Negotiations with Sun have failed so far and the ranch now considers renaming to GeekRanch and broadening its scope. Read the full story in all its gory detail."
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JavaRanch gets Cease And Desist From Sun More

JavaRanch gets Cease And Desist From Sun

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  • At the bottom of the main page, they say:

    Java and Java-based marks are trademarks or registered rademarks of Sun Microsystems, Inc.
    JavaRanch is not affiliated with Sun Microsystems, Inc. in any way. Except we like them a lot.


    Well, I guess they don't like Sun that much anymore...
  • I mean, look at the situation here: .NET has come to the party late and intends to kill the thoroughly rolling Java bandwagon; In an effort to prove that common sense doesn't exist, the open source community starts embracing C# (ffs) and the CLR - Miguel DeIcaza is spotted blowing Steve Ballmer at CeBit; So Sun do what any sensible threatened competitor would do - start suing their mindshare.

    Fsck's sake, I can understand them wanting to ensure that people remember Java=Sun so please buy our nice purple boxes, especially with IBM's increasingly successfuly campaign to do a runner with both Java and Linux's mindshare. But... suing a fansite? A _BIG_ fansite full of people who like to walk around persuading people to use Java?

    Once again: Head->Table... Bang! Bang! Bang!

    Dave
    • Sun isn't up to anything. Notice that they aren't making demands like "Stop using our trademark!" They're just saying, "If you use our trademark, you have to follow standard trademark rules." This is something they have to do if they want to continue to own the Java trademark. Note these are not Sun's trademark rules -- these are trademark rules that have been part of case law for decades.

      When I was at Sun, we were all summoned to a seminar given by the corporate IP lawyers. We were told that we could only use the word "Java" if we followed exactly the kind of bizarre rules that Sun is imposing on JavaRanch. Nobody liked it, least of all the technical writers. But you can't get around the fact that this is the only way for Sun to preserve a billion-dollar IP asset. Measured against that, having to follow strange rules and imposing them on others is a small price to pay.

      • We were told that we could only use the word "Java" if we followed exactly the kind of bizarre rules that Sun is imposing on JavaRanch.

        Perhaps a quick mail to the webmaster at JavaRanch?

        Heh, BTW your .sig is beautifully reciprocal.

        Dave
      • It is true that if Sun doesn't enforce their trademark, it will become un-enforceable in the end. So we are asking them to sell us a license (preferably for a symbolic fee). That way, JavaRanch can remain JavaRanch without weakening Sun's claims on the Java name. No joy so far.

        The infuriating thing is not that they try to take care of their Java(tm) trademark, but that they are being so inflexible and non-cooperative about it.
      • How about StewpidLitigiousHasBeen Ranch? Would Sun see that as a trademark infringement?
      • So, the way to make your product a household word is to add the "tm"? And this is claimed to be necessary to protect the investment? In what way? As long as the trademark is enforced then its use without "TM" should not be any big deal. Maybe they can add (PBUs) - "praise be unto Sun" instead.
    • Once again: Head->Table... Bang! Bang! Bang!

      Head.Bang(Table);

  • ...the only thing that separates Sun from Microsoft is market share.

    • Re:Sadly... (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      That and that Microsoft actively encourages fansites and user groups through giveaway programs.

      Sun delivers subpoenas...
  • Change it to "The friendly place to drink java, discuss politics in Java, and talk about code."
  • It is just like Windows is a plural form of something that predates microsoft by many millenia (i assume its been around at least for 1 millenia).

    I hate coffee, I drink tea. Specifically, Orange Pekoe.
    (2002: Company comes up with Language called Pekoe, and suddenly i am infringing...)
  • They should hide behind legal precedent and rename their site the "Java Sucks Ranch".

  • Lousy language (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If they had created the PerlRanch, it would be a simple one-liner to change the name to whatever was mandated.

    Java's going to require at least 10 or so LOC.

  • I do not see the problem here (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Decado ( 207907 ) on Thursday March 21, 2002 @09:30PM (#3204874)
    Ok I have read the article, then went back and re-read it paying close attention to the mails from Sun. As far as I can see they are doing their best to resolve this amicably. They sent an email mentioning the problem, in it they were polite, they did not tell the JavaRanch people that they had to change their name to "The Java(tm) Technology Ranch" they just offered that name as an example of a valid usage of their trademark. The people sending that mail do not have to come up with the new name, they just have to give some examples of valid usage.

    So what do the JavaRanch people do? They very maturely shove the mail under the carpet and hope it goes away. They were being discourteous to sun when they didn't respond, then they later have the gall to get their knickers in a twist when Sun dont get back to them immediately? So it is ok for them to ignore Sun for months, but if Sun dont respond immediately they are assholes? Do I detect a bit of a double standard here? Sun seemed very willing to discuss an arrangment with them, maybe they would have allowed them permission to use the name JavaRanch but it is nieve to think that they will just magically come up with that idea if you don't even take the trouble to respond to their mail. Perhaps asking Sun if you can do that would be a good idea? You think?

    Sun HAVE to look after their trademark. They go so far as to list the 8 offending pages (and sorry but claiming one person cannot be expected to singlehandedly modify eight pages is a bit weak). When they offer to work with you in resolving the problem then the smart thing to do is to send a reply to their email. Voice your concerns, discuss your options with Sun before you decide you are under siege. All the Sun correspondance seems to have an amicable tone. So what if they dont offer you a huge sponsership deal just to comply with their trademark. I cannot believe that no one there just suggested working with Sun to resolve this in the amicable manner in which it began instead of doing their best to force Sun into more action, and Sun still have not taken that action. Adam Cohn described his position at Sun so that the JavaRanch people would realize that sun cared enough to assign someone who could make a decision to their case.

    Here is a quick timeline;

    November 6 2001: Sun send JavaRanch an amicably phrased email asking them to comply with their trademark usage requirements, the mail is concise yet clear and offers examples of valid trademark usage. The JavaRanch people decide to ignore it and hope it goes away (which Einstein there came up with that plan?)

    A few weeks ago? Someone accosts Scott McNealy about it, sun not having troubled JavaRanch about the matter at all in the meantime. So what does Scott do? He gets someone from sun to contact JavaRanch about their concerns. JavaRanch respond and try to talk about a completely different topic. And when the V.P of marketing is busy they assign someone else to the matter. He sends an email and suddenly JavaRanch decide that they are under siege.

    It is unwarranted bad press for Sun. They acted sincerely and obviously seem to be making every effort to an amicable solution. Sorry, but it is the JavaRanch people who are being unreasonable (I daresay even childish) here and they need to start behaving in a much more mature manner. They have now put Sun on the defensive and may force Suns hand. They have switched from accidental non-complience to opponents of sun over a minor issue.

    Grow Up.
    • JavaRanch people add a space becoming Java Ranch. You then tell Sun that Java is an adjective in that name, Sun who obviously wanted an amicable solution agree that Java is an adjective in that context and everyone is happy. Add a small (tm) after Java in your logo and all thr troubles go away.

  • Copyright (Score:4, Insightful)

    by erasmus_ ( 119185 ) on Thursday March 21, 2002 @09:39PM (#3204917)
    Now I'm as much against silly lawsuits as the next guy, but Sun is being awfully nice here, and the letter did not strike me as at all menacing. I mean, Sun does own the trademark, and whether the word has other meanings in other contexts is entirely irrelevant.

    They don't want to shut down the site, they just want the site to honor the trademark in an appropriate way. The article post specifically talks about how the JavaRanch people hoped it would all go away - if they started slowly updating the site at the URLs Sun wanted, they would have been done by now. Sun mentions in the letter that they appreciate what the site has done, and some pretty high-ups in the company want the site to stay. I don't think updating a logo and a couple URLs is too much to ask. But perhaps I'm wrong.

  • Legal Issue (Score:2, Insightful)

    by cassandy ( 557648 )
    I don't think that this is so much a matter of Sun wanting to call JavaRanch on this matter, but I think it's more that they have to.

    You can't sue one person for trademark infringement (ie, M$) just because you don't like them, but not so much as send a 'cease and desist' to another (JavaRanch) just because you do. If JavaRanch is the biggest non-Sun Java site out there, Sun can't claim ignorance on JavaRanch's trademark infringement.

    If Sun is trying to set up a major legal case against some one else (and we know they are) then this could just be a way of fixing a glaring hole in their prosecution.

    It's too bad tho that JavaRanch is taking it so hard.
    • While that is true, informing the JavaRacnh people of that would have been helpful in explaining to them why this was unfortunate but necessary.

      Now it just looks like a lawyer got out of control. Sending cease and desist letters to friendly supporters is not a smart thing to do (ok, it's an extremely stupid thing to do and the responsible marketing/legal drone should be kicked out for incompetence and doing major damage to the Java/Sun brand).

      This will find its way to the press and it will result in lots of bad publicity for SUN. In other words its already costing them and it will even cost them more in the near future.

      Sun needs to get it's marketing department in better shape, there've been several major fuckups lately:
      - this ugly incident
      - the convenient get Java thingy on sun.com and java.sun.com still points to jre 1.3.1 rather than jre1.4.0 even though it's been out for weeks, has better/more features, etc.
      - Days after launching jre 1.4.0 a feature/marketing article on sun.com informs us of how great 1.3.1 is, never even mentioning 1.4.0.
      - Java webstart is launched without any compelling webstart applications.

      I mean what company invests millions in developing a product and then starts marketing the old product?? That is just nuts. It's been pointed out to them by among others me on several occasions. But they just don't get it.

  • Call me stupid... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by coyote-san ( 38515 ) on Thursday March 21, 2002 @10:00PM (#3204993)
    Call me stupid, but what's the problem here? They're talking about the Java(tm) language and libaries developed and promoted by Sun, so the latter is well within its rights AND OBLIGATIONS in asking them to remember to add the "(tm)."

    Changing the URL may be overkill, but it's still very reasonable for "javaranch.com" to be the short name and the preferred name (title, first use in all documents, etc.) to be the more verbose form.

    As for comparisons to Microsoft Windows, this situation is totally different. "Window" has several specific meanings within the technical literature (Windowing GUI system, "window" and "viewport" in computer graphics, "window" into paged memory (a hack to get more memory than a processor's address space can handle into a system), etc.) In contrast, I'm not aware of any "java" use within the technical literature except as the beverage of choice for many developers.

    • Wrong (Score:1)

      by benb ( 100570 )
      > They're talking about the Java(tm) language and libaries
      > developed and promoted by Sun, so the latter is well within its
      > rights AND OBLIGATIONS in asking them to remember to
      > add the "(tm)."

      No. JavaRanch is a third-party, and unlike what companies try to tell you, you *can* /refer/ (!) to a product by its sole name, without adding the (TM). That's called the "Fair Use" clause in the U.S., other countries have special unnamed exceptions for that in law.

      Everything else would be utterly silly. If asked which car you drive, do you have to say "I own a Ford(TM) Explorer(TM)"? Come on...

      BTW: Sun seems to be *especially* obsessed about its trademarks. According to *them*, you may not say "I like to use Java for such tasks", but you have to say "I like to use the Java(TM) language (or technology) for such tasks".
      Sure, dream on....

      What trademarks *do* protect against is that somebody other than e.g. Sun tries to make it look as if they had *the* Java environment. I.e. trademarks protect you from other companies making clones or other products which fool customers by giving it a name of your well-known product.

      IANAL.

  • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • It causes some stumbling in the writing sometimes too, but they believe it's the right thing to do.

      Sony does the same thing with the PS/2 memory cards. "Insert the memory card or the memory card for PS/2 (8 MB). If the memory card or the memory card for PS/2 (8 MB) is full, insert another memory card or memory card for PS/2 (8 MB). If you have two memory cards or memory cards for PS/2 (8 MB), you can use both memory cards or memory cards for PS/2 (8 MB) at once. Do not remove a memory card or memory card for PS/2 (8 MB) while it is being accessed."

  • We are happy to inform you that Network Associates Inc. has obtained the patents for DNS resolution naming convention, TCP/IP technology and terminology, twisted pair, T1, router, and cofee pots. Please remove the infringing items from your posession by calling 911 and asking for you local HAZMAT team to contain and remove the technology owned by Network Associates Inc. Thankyou for your time.

    Sincerely,

    -Bob Tootle (RBGSeqT, 1963)

  • Another non-profit discussion site, JavaJunkies.org, based on the E2 engine and modeled after Perlmonks.org, apparently just had a similar tuffle with Sun on this. From what I understand and read, all they have to do was to put the appropriate TM's on the main pages, and to make sure they go by "JavaJunkies.org" as opposed to "JavaJunkies", in addition to removing a few images that involved a logo that looked like a steaming cup of coffee (as per Sun's Java logo). Most of it easily fixed on their end, and got confirmation from lawyers that all was well after various changes.

  • Hm (Score:1)

    by sulli ( 195030 )
    They should just open a coffee plantation. The product would be better too.
  • What about when I just want a cup of Java (tm)?

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