Americans And Chinese Internet Censorship

chowbok writes: "The Weekly Standard writes that despite expectations, the Chinese Government has been very successful in suppressing free internet access for their citizens. Key to this success was the assistance of Cisco, who built a giant firewall tailored to the state's needs, Yahoo (who helpfully censors search results and monitors online chats), and other Western companies."

Subverting Chinese Government Censorship

[Anonymous Coward]

(posted anonymously for obvious reasons)

A friend of mine spends a large amount of time on business in China (5+ months a year) and has found the sources for world news there woefully inadequate. I decided to help him out by mirroring the largest news stories from CNN [cnn.com] on my web site, then protecting it with htaccess. I know it is not completely secure, but at this point he is still able to access it. The password protection at least prevents search engine spiders from indexing the news I post and adding it to a banned list or whatever the Chinese government uses.

My point is that censorship will never be 100% effective in a country that has such international significance. Neither my friend nor I are Chinese citizens, and because of this, we have little to fear as far as government retaliation goes. As long as the the benefits outweight the risks, people will do what they can to make information free.

Re:The Ovens of Corporate America

[Eloquence]

Corporations are amoral. Their only purpose is to maximize shareholder value, i.e. sales and profits. If they act in a way that reduces their shareholder value, e.g. by acting "morally responsible", they can even be sued by their shareholders under certain circumstances.

The same corporations that create airplanes also manufacture weapons that are sold into the third world. The insurance companies lobby for safer cars, but also for less privacy to create better consumer profiles. The clothes corporations employ kids under deplorable conditions. The oil corporations support corrupt regimes in order to get drilling rights. And so on ad infinitum. Cisco supplying tools that can be used for censorship is hardly the worst crime that corporations can be accused of. The whole arms industry thrives of death and suffering, and it is in their corporate interest to create more of it.

That's why corporations need to be regulated. You just can't expect them to do the right thing, that would not only be idiotically naive, it would be fatal.

Re:Capitalism

[SGHarms]

It is my opinion that you've hit on the most powerful aspect of Cisco selling to China.

In the long run, the free market will be the undoing of totalitarian regimes. This thesis is played out in a creatiwe context in Asimov's _Foundation_ series.

Remember, Marco Polo entered China through the back door weilding commerce as the weapon of choice - it is to Cisco's credit that they recognize this opportunity for what it is: a chance to make the most populous nation a nation of consumers.

Re:Please...

[donnz]

The average Chinese citizen does not want your revolution. They want orderly, nonviolent change. The US companies are just doing business, no more and no less, and that business helps along that change.

Not that that desire helped them much during the Cultural Revolution, the excesses of the "Gang of Four" or Tianeman Square...

[Update] Chinese Hypocrisy

[Anonymous Coward]

Before we become all bent out of shape about what some American companies are doing in China,
we should look closely at what the Chinese, Chinese companies, and Chinese in the USA
are doing to support mainland China. Allow me to list several facts that have escaped the
radar of good-hearted but naive Americans.

1. Most Chinese in Hong Kong support the return of Hong Kong to mainland China. A CNN/Time
survey showed, in fact, that 60% of the Chinese in Hong Kong support the return of Hong Kong
to mainland China. (reference: "Poll: Hong Kong residents optimistic" http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9706/26/hong.kong.democra cy/index.html )
While East Timorese fought and died for independence from the oppressive
Indonesian government, the Chinese in Hong Kong cheered the mainland Chinese government.

2. The constitution of the Chinese living in Taiwan supports the integration of both Tibet
and Mongolia into mainland China. While Tibetans suffer and die at the hands of the Chinese
People's Liberation Army, the Chinese in Taiwan support integrating Tibet into "One China".

3. The Chinese son of the chairman of a powerful conglomerate in Taiwan has joined with the son
of Jiang Zemin, the butcher of Tibet, to build an advanced silicon-wafer factory in Shanghai.
(reference: "Sons of prominent Chinese team up on chip venture",
http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2000/05 /11/story/0 000035539 )

4. Senior Chinese military officials retired from the Taiwanese military have gone to mainland China
and given military secrets about the American F-16 fighter jet to the Beijing government.
(reference: "Military secrets on sale to China"
http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2000/07/11 /story/0 000043316 )

5. Most Chinese, including those living in the United States of America, support the territorial
ambitions of mainland China. Most Chinese support integrating Tibet into mainland China.
Most Chinese support integrating the Spratleys into mainland China. Most Chinese support
integrating the Senkaku islands into mainland China.

6. Most Chinese support Beijing's attempt to use torture and murder to crush the Falun Gong.
Indeed, the Beijing government has funded anti-Falun-Gong meetings within the United States
itself. These meetings within the United States are attended by the very same Chinese who fight
with tooth and nail to stay permanently in the United States of America.

7. The Chinese from "poor, little, scared" Taiwan have invested more than $50 billion into more than
50,000 businesses in mainland China. How did this phenomenon happen? Immediately, after the
Tienanman Square incident back in June 4, 1989, the American government and businesses curtailed
investments in mainland China. The Taiwanese (and the other Chinese in Hong Kong) seized this window
of opportunity and accelerated investments into mainland China. The rate of investments from
Taiwan into China has skyrocketed to the present levels; investments continue to grow at
double-digit rates.

8. These observations are not an exaggeration of any kind. At your university, attend your local
meeting of Amnesty International. The engineering and business schools will have plenty of Chinese
people, but there will be virtually _NO_ Chinese faces in a meeting of Amnesty International. Chinese
(and other Orientals) are over-represented in engineering and business schools, but they are
under-represented in meetings of Amnesty International. Why?

So few Americans really know anything about Chinese society. We Americans are kind-hearted
and naive. We simply assume that the Chinese are "just like us" and that the Chinese are simply
(financially) poorer versions of ourselves. In reality, the Chinese are not like us. They are poor, but
they are _NOT_ like us.

And GTE helped this thing too.

[Anonymous Coward]

GTE helped lay a ring of fiber betworks around the country about 8 years ago. A circle of fiber where every communications in or out of China passed through that fiber ring. The concept was to 'modernize' their infrastructure. As a GTE employee and stock holder, I pointed out in emails to GTE officials that it was actually to do this very thing, to supress the free flow of communications for the Chinese citizens. I also pointed out that it was a way to improve communications links for the PLA on the frontiers to use. The Chinese citizens are paying dearly for the "help" we gave them.

The Pentagon Papers

[shani]

While what you say is more or less true, let's not forget that in the hands of bad people, the US system is not as happy and carefree as you suggest. The classic example of this is President Nixon.

Now I know Nixon is a big conservative hero, but the reality is that he used his power, both political and military, to opress political opposition to further his own ends.

The best example of this is probably not the whole Whitewater scandal, but rather the Pentagon Papers. For those not in the know, this was a book written by the Pentagon designed to be a report of the US involvement in Vietnam. When a newspaper (NY Times) got a hold on it and started printing it, Nixon arranged to have the first order against a newspaper printing a story in the history of the US issued.

Now mind you, this wasn't a list of current battle strategies or logistics, but a history of the war that had been going on for 7 or 8 years at this point. The newspaper was vindicated in the end, but not before suffering attacks and threats.

This isn't liberal innuendo, it's the facts [encyclopedia.com].

Re:Why?

[maxpublic]

Although it seems rather silly to point this out, government is not a neutral entity that will impartially issue you permits and provide information no matter what group or interest you represent. Having worked for government I saw countless examples of information getting 'lost' until it was too late to be useful, permits denied for a variety of reasons (e.g., lost the paperwork, paperwork incomplete, 'anonymous threats', etc.), peaceful gatherings raided by police using the quite illegal 'hold and release' tactic, intimidation by forming up riot lines against a rally (somewhat amusing when there are more police than folks at the rally), documents destroyed or altered against all records laws when said documents might lead to problems, etc. etc.

The list of abuses I personally witnessed is a long one. Very few people in government at *any* level give a rats ass about the law; if you think otherwise I suggest you stop deluding yourself. Government is interested only in furthering its own goals (whatever they might be) and the law doesn't amount to a hill of beans if it interferes with the pursuit of those goals. The average citizen, especially a citizen that objects to government action, is held in utter contempt.

The playing field isn't at all level and nothing about it is fair. Censorship in the U.S. is quite real and happens regularly, even if you, the guy on the street, has no idea it's happening. It isn't what's going on in China, but it's alot worse than what you might think.

Max