Ask Ed Felten About Watermarking Analysis And More 191
Dr. Edward Felten is in a funny position -- or perhaps not so funny. He's the Princeton researcher who took up the challenge posed by the music industry to find flaws in the SMDI watermarking scheme, but didn't enter into the 'no-telling' bargain (here's the click-through agreement [pdf]) which would have made him eligible for a reward, so wasn't bound by non-disclosure terms. When a scheduled academic presentation on the weaknesses [pdf] that he and his colleages found in SDMI became the object of lawsuit threats from the RIAA, and caused him to cancel the planned presentation, Felten decided to turn the tables, and in cooperation with the EFF, sue them instead, for interfering with his scholarly research. Though he did eventually get to present his research, the legal action is still going. Dr. Felten is at a hearing today in Trenton, NJ, but he's agreed to answer questions from Slashdot readers. Please confine your questions carefully (one per post), and we'll pass the highest-moderated ones on for his answers.
Best case outcome for your lawsuit? (Score:5, Interesting)
What is the best case outcome for the lawsuit that you and the EFF have started. Is it possible that the DMCA (or parts of it) can be found unconstitutional? Or would a "best case" just be a weaking of the DMCA, where for certain purposes people would be allowed to discuss their findings regardless of the DMCA.
Also, how likely (in the opinion of you or your lawyers) are the different possible outcomes of this case?
If you were the RIAA (Score:5, Interesting)
Research and its applications (Score:5, Interesting)
This gets down to a licensing issue, on the public being charged twice for the research and it's benefits.
Eric Gearman
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Academic Integrity (Score:5, Interesting)
As an academic myself, I am gratified by your colleagues and your decision to publish your findings instead of claiming the $10000 prize (personally, I find the $10000 "prize" for the HackSDMI challenge measly, and even bordering on insulting.).
The fact that you are suing the RIAA for intefering into your academic activities indicates your stance on the issue of academic freedom to research. However, the RIAA has deep-pockets, and the fight has just begun. It is not inconceivable that in the future, the academia may come under the control of rich corporations manipulating research for their own selfish ends.
So, my question is, do you see a bright future for a "free academia" or do you see a academia that willi increasingly be locked down by corporate interests and their lawyers/lobbyists?
Lawsuit (Score:3, Interesting)
Or is it more likely that the judge will actually tackle the real issue of the DMCA stifling research (and now foreign visitors presenting papers re: Sklyarov)
-Jerry
A couple questions (Score:5, Interesting)
First, when you started your research, did you ever expect that you would be at the forefront of a legal battle to keep academic speech free and protected? Do you ever have any misgivings about taking a high profile in this matter? I know there are some researchers (some of my colleauges included) who shy away from anything legal and would rather just do work that might not be as controversial. It's good to see you getting involved and make sure that our rights as academics are preserved.
Secondly, what has it been like working with the EFF? I have a great deal of respect for them and have been a member for a couple of years now. I am just curious as to the 'behind-the-scenes' process that you and the EFF lawyers have been persuing as this case pans out.
Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Advise For Others In Your Situation (Score:5, Interesting)
Thank you
Was this a trap? (Score:5, Interesting)
I am not talking about breaking the watermark itself, but the planned presentation and then you not presenting because of the RIAA threat?
Crypto Protection vs Copyright issues (Score:3, Interesting)
Research Disruption vs. Precident Case (Score:4, Interesting)
I understand the reasoning behind countersuing for disruption of research, but why would you choose this option over a direct countersuit to challenge the DMCA? Your victory could theoretically mean the end of the DMCA by setting a valuable precedent.
Lockpicking and decrypting (Score:5, Interesting)
(now to my question)
It seems that if laws against breaking and entering were not enforced, people (particularly those who wanted to protect themselves and their valuables) would be a lot more concerned about lock-picking. What do you think can (or should?) be done to enforce our existing copyright laws so that measures such as the one you are fighting will eventually be unnecessary?
How to balance circumvention research and security (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't think that anyone on this site would argue for an instant that current law has had a chilling effect on researchers such as yourself. The government has forbidden legitimate research into security circumvention tools, essentially sticking its head in the sand and pretending that crackers and citizens of foreign countries won't continue security research themselves.
That having been said, the events of September 11th really came as a shock to the system for a lot us here. Suddenly, the idea of someone, say, cracking Triple-DES and distributing the crack on the Internet seemed a little more scary than it did on September 10th. If someone (*cough*Al Queda*cough*) were able to read our military secrets, you can bet there would be a real loss of human life associated with it.
Obviously, discussing flaws in SDMI and publishing a Triple-DES crack are two different balls of wax. So, the real question - do you think anti-circumvention legislation is *ever* warranted? Or is any legislation at *all* simply more sticking our heads in the sand?
(proudly wearing my DeCSS t-shirt
RIAA (Score:3, Interesting)
What's your opinion of the RIAA & copy protect (Score:4, Interesting)
One more thing: what do you anticipate will be the end result of the intellectual-property fiasco? Will we be condemned to a world of SDMI and single-use music, or will fair use win out in the end?
How much.... (Score:2, Interesting)
No, really!
Is copy-protection even possible? (Score:3, Interesting)
From a technological standpoint, do you feel the RIAA is wasting thier time or do you think they will reach a certain level of protection that will be worth thier efforts?
Is Copy-Protection Possible? (Score:5, Interesting)
From a scientific point of view, is there any evidence that technologies could be invented which enable producers of digital content to control how this digital content is used, and by whom? Should there be a difference between theory and real life, I'd be interested in an answer under real-world assumptions, that is, there is an Internet and people connect to it using devices fully under their own control.
Do you think an unbreakable copyprotect can happen (Score:2, Interesting)
In my view it seems that no matter what copy protection technology comes out, someone makes something to circumvent and defeat it.
Do you think there will there ever be an "unbreakable" protection scheme?
And how easy/hard is it to "alter" an image or a sound clip to defeat it's watermark?
Thanks.
The impact of new legislation (Score:3, Interesting)
Advice (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you have advice for the curious student, perhaps someone interested in research or experiments similar to yours, but without any resources to assist him in a court of law? I have had a friend who received threats of a legal nature from a large company and he chose not to continue his research since he did not have the resources for a lengthy legal battle.
To conclude my question, what would you recommend to the student who wishes to do as you have done, but does not have similar resources?
Thank you.
R. Suzuka
Leave the country? (Score:3, Interesting)
And in the same context might foreign scientist refrain from coming to conferences in the US for the same reason.
Regrets? (Score:3, Interesting)
As the old axiom goes, "Hindsight is 20/20". At this point in your battle, having become a public representative of academic freedom and constitutionality, is there anything you regret, any decisions you would have made differently if you could do all of this over again?
As an avid slashdot reader & EFF supporter, I'd like to wish you the best of luck in your fight! I'm sure I speak for the entire slashdot community when I say that you are truly an inspiration to us all.
-Mike
IP and the Law (Score:5, Interesting)
Any security protection will deter 80-90%of the people. Of the remaining people, 1-2% will not be deterred by anything and the rest will take advantage of the work of the 1-2%. Copy protection doesn't work in the digital world as well as it works in the analog world. It would seem that perhaps the laws governing the digitial world ought to be different from the analog world, perhaps even different for different types of digital "ideas".
What is your opinion of the best way to implement copyright, patent, or other Intellectual Property protection for authors while protecting fair use rights of consumers?
What would the realistic impact be? (Score:5, Interesting)
Fair Use (Score:3, Interesting)
Do you ever feel like... (Score:3, Interesting)
MicroSoft, RIAA, DMCA...
You're playing with the big boys.
Where do you see yourself ending up?
What about individual watermarking (Score:3, Interesting)
Is it much more difficult (outside of mass distribution issues) to mark each distinct copy with a unique watermark, than it is to use a single generic watermark?
Use of EFF Donations. (Score:3, Interesting)
How did this happen? (Score:5, Interesting)
The RIAA seems clearly out-of-line in their legal attempt to stop the publication of your work. Hopefully your legal case against them will set usable boundaries for Intellectual Property disputes in future.
My question is: How did the RIAA get themselves in this situation? It appears really stupid for an organization of their stature. Didn't they know where to find a good mathematician when they developed SDMI? With all due respect, surely you weren't the only guy out there who could solve this problem. Then to lay it out on the table and bet the world, it couldn't be read. It just all seems like a comedy of bad management.
How did it happen???
The beginning of a new age? (Score:4, Interesting)
Now we have a private entity blazanly attempting to suppress research they didn't even finance because it shows critical weaknesses in their technology (even if they make the weak claim they have a disinterested motivation for their action). Not withstanding the incredible poor taste of telling a professor he can't present his work, after having asked for said research to happen in the first place, because the conclusions the work comes to aren't the ones desired. I am left with the bitter cold feeling that we are slowly slipping into a new era of corporate meddling where all manner of 'unpopular' academic research will find itself the subjects of lawsuits because some crafty lawyer has found a new way to extropolate the clauses of the DMCA in such a way that it protects his clients product in some fashion.
What are your thoughts on this and how do you assess the willingness of america's academia to resist this trend?
Isn't intellectual rights a two way street? (Score:1, Interesting)
It has been my experience that academia tries, or atleast pretends to try to protect intellectual property. I think its really cool you stepped up to the challenge of breaking the watermark, but the course of action seems strange. The industry although bloated and corrupt is trying to protect their intellectual rights, and now you to are trying to do the same thing in a legal battle. So my question is then, why did you take this project on? Was it get your name out there (which is important in academia), to help the industry out (which is why they gave you $10,000), or some reason I missed. It seems strange that you would go public with the watermark information if you are worried about your own rights..
Thanks
The future of digital media (Score:4, Interesting)
"Gambler's Ruin" and the RIAA lawsuit (Score:4, Interesting)
It seems, from the outside, that you are in a position similar to the "Gambler's Ruin" fallecy.
(For those not familliar with this, it works like this: Bob goes to a casino. He bets $2 on a game of chance. If he loses, he plays again with $4, and with $8, $16, $32 etc, doubling his bet each time he loses. The idea is that if he wins, he wins back all the money he lost up to that point, and the odds of his losing streak continuing very deep - assuming reasonable house advantage - are pretty small.
The "fallecy" par crops up in that the casino has access to far greater resources than Bob. Bob's bet gets pretty big in a hurry (and the amount spent is culmulative, until he wins) so the odds are that for reasonable values of Bob's bankroll, the casino can outlast him and take his money in the end)
The RIAA (and Microsoft, and Hollywood studios, and similar offenders) have very deep pockets, whereas individuals like Dr Felten are close to Bob. The problem seems to be that any of these rich organizations can keep the legal battle going indefinately (spending money on lawyer's fees all the while) and eventually bleed Bob (or Dr Felten) dry.
Dr Felten, based on your recent experience
1) Do you agree with this analogy, and
2) How can you expect not to be bled dry, financially, by the process?
.
The University's Role (Score:3, Interesting)
DMSI and Sound Distortion? (Score:2, Interesting)
watermarking techniques, I was curious about
the effect this has on the quality of the recording--especially in classical music.
Are there any audible artifacts?
(even the SLIGHTEST?)
Do the watermark techniques you've seen affect the timbre or pitch?
thanks,
Bill Klemm
Rice University
How about Tarjan's watermarking work? (Score:5, Interesting)
Given that you've been so prominent in demonstrating the weakness of watermarking techniques thus far, how do you like his company's chances of succeeding, and has your academic interest in defeating watermarking schemes resulted in some interesting debates in the lunchroom?
Conflicts in Intellectual Property Law (Score:3, Interesting)
Dr. Felten:
Some commentators would characterize the last 25 years or so as a conflict between patent holders (the manufacturers of consumer technology) and copyright holders (the producers of consumer culture). The landmark U.S. Supreme Court case, Sony v. Universal, was set up as typifying this conflict.
However, it would seem that, many years after the movie studios lost their attempt to prevent consumer VCRs from being sold, the VCR has, if anything, benefitted the motion picture industry.
Similarly, in the recent Napster case, it is worthwhile noting that after the RIAA successfully shut down Napster, their sales started to immediately decline, and have continued to decline. Many have argued that Napster provided a vastly superior method of music promotion, especially for older records, than radio, and its shutdown has resulted in music fans not finding out about records they might otherwise buy.
Do you think that this conflict is more imagined than real? In other words, is it more likely to the benefit of the cultural industries to work with technological development, rather than fight it?
Is any protection possible. (Score:2, Interesting)
We keep seeing cryptographic copy control attempted and broken. DVD-CSS, SMDI, the high bandwidth crypto stuff mentioned on slashdot recently.
Do you think it's at all possible to create a true playback control system? Perhaps using public key crypto and un-hackable hardware? Or do you believe that it is truly mathematically impossible to do
Response to dismissal? (Score:3, Interesting)
It appears that until you or some other legitimate researcher goes forward with publication and is sued or prosecuted for it, the courts may think you are just crying wolf to try to get a law you don't like changed. A number of researchers have stated that they now intend to stop working on analyzing content protection. If this court decision is upheld, that will prevent the DMCA from being overturned.
Are you willing to go forward with research and publication in violation of the DMCA? The only way to stop you then will be to actually use the DMCA against you, and it can finally be tested in court. Will you take this risk when so many researchers are backing away?
Watermarking and Jpeg2000 (Score:2, Interesting)
Watermarking on the other hand seems to rely on hiding in the least significant bits of the data. Pretty soon any images that are supplied in Jpeg2000 format or converted to it would have an automagic way of killing any watermarks present.
I think watermarking has already lost. What do you think of this?
t.