Ellison's ID Card Plan Gets More Attention 701
fredbox writes: "A Mercury News article reports Oracle CEO Larry Ellison and John Ashcroft have been meeting to discuss creation of a national ID database including fingerprints, facial scans, etc. Other supporters include Sen. Dianne Feinstein, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNealy. They claim these cards would be 'voluntary', much as the act of leaving your home or purchasing groceries are voluntary activities." Update: 10/18 01:48 GMT by M : Hah! btempleton writes: "Here is a prototype of Larry Ellison's new national ID card."
Too hard to keep up with... (Score:4, Insightful)
huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
heh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to mention have email...
Re:heh... (Score:3, Insightful)
What the hell for? (Score:5, Insightful)
Guide to air travel in America (Score:5, Insightful)
The cards also would be instantly checked against a new national database. That database would base would link existing criminal and immigration data to screen out potential terrorists.
But AFAIK, none of the terrorists HAD criminal records. They were perfectly good citizens as far as anyone knew up until getting on those planes. So criminal data's no good.
Ah, but they did just emigrate from Afghanistan, or Iraq. That would show up on the immigration data.
So what this suggests to me, is that if you've just immigrated from Iraq or Afghanistan, I'd be allowing another thirty minutes at the airport, to deal with all those 'are you a terrorist' questions. Because that's the only thing that separated all those terrorists from the rest of the travellers.
It'd be good to see a policy from the US that didn't assume that terrorists have a big flashing sign on their forehead that says "I AM A TERRORIST." Because that's how I think they're planning on telling Osama Bin Laden from all the other robed, bearded guys carrying AK47s in Afghanistan.
We already HAVE national ID cards!... (Score:5, Insightful)
When was the last time you heard of any US citizen being able to do much without presenting their social security number?
How long before Feinstein sells (ahem, I mean, "legislates") access to this database to major publishers and media conglomerates? After all, with all the talk of encryption crippling and government-mandated copy-prevention lately, perhaps the mysterious terrorists are financing their operations by selling bootleg DVDs (perhaps even with secret terrorist messages steganographically embedded in the signal! Gasp!) and using hacked no-back-door versions of commercial encryption software, so, just in case, we should probably let MPAA and BSA use the database to correlate with any 'suspicious' activity they might notice...
You know, as recent as a year or so ago, the above would have sounded like paranoid ranting to me. It worries me that it no longer does...
Ninety days? (Score:4, Insightful)
On that note, does anybody know what kinds of legislative action really would be needed to put this together? It strikes me as requiring a pretty close-coupling of business and government interests, OR the federalization of a whole lot of currently private organizations.
-schussat
Re:SSN, anyone? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:driver's license argument (Score:2, Insightful)
That's what you think. By a strict definition of crime, that is, causing harm to another person (and even then "harm" is fuzzy), neither am I. But what about those web sites you visited lately? Slashdot is known as attracting quite the subversive crowd. And I'm sure that there might be something suspicious about that lye you bought a few days ago. You bought a copy of Fight Club, I see. Well, well, you also have bought a copy of the hacker OS linux? On top of all that, your grandfather is Arab! This isn't good at all; clearly something is going down. In the best interests of preserving our liberty and tradition of small-government, I'm detaining you indefinity on suspicion of being a terrorist.
I know, this post should probably be scored -1, redundant, but I had to post it. It's not the collection of the information that's the bad thing, it's the amassing of information in the hands of the paranoid that will result from this anti-terrorist initiative.
Ashcroft & Fienstien like it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
The SSN system has been so exploited by big business it's not even funny. This is a dream come true for those that want to track your life. I guess it's voluntary if you don't need to work, eat or receive health care. Sad.
Pherris
Re:Hmmmm, SO? (Score:3, Insightful)
In a country that had the most infamous dictors of the 20th century, I would think this sort of thing would be strongly opposed.
Anybody who can track you, can control you.
What if you go into a shop, make a legitamate purchase. the next day, the shop gets raided by law enforcement for some illegal activity.
You are now under investigation. Being under investigation goes into your record. Do you think that won'r effect you if you want a government job?
What happens when you do something that become illegal? now they have reason to suspect you.
Not to mention the marketing nightmares.
You bought something every company that has anything to do with that product is now spamming you one way or another.
In this case there is also the fact of tying the whole thing to a propritary database company. as opposed to a company that ir responsible for the ID casr, but can choose the DB based on requirements, noy on what they allready sell.
It would be funny if they were not serious (Score:5, Insightful)
Later of course we could expand it for more specific information like your health records, financial status, political slant, religious affiliations and employment history. Of course you would not have to provide this to anyone else, but then again they would not have to hire you, provide products or services, and extend credit to you.
To handle these issues I am certain we will be asked to trust them. And should it prove to be an issue You they will take it up in a future bill.
I am reminded of the principle of SAM (Specific, Attainable, and Measurable). I then ask the simple question (the same I posed for cryptography "back doors"), "If this was in place on 9/11, would it have stopped the terrorists?" Ding-ding-ding, I am sorry, but at last count something like 14 of the hijackers were unknown to anyone. They would have had cards that allowed them to get on without an issue.
"But what about the others? They would have been stopped." No, they would not have been on to begin with, or they would have paid someone to create or reprogram cards.
So what will work? With regards to planes, no one on a plane will believe a hijacker is anything but suicidal. Even if they are not, and really just want money. Sorry, we are going to be looking out for ourselves and each other. The best security you can ever hope to find.
Ellison is a lying sack of shit (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. What's in it for him is a death-grip on the identities of the entire country. What's in it for him is becoming as important as a public utility, but having all the benefits of a for-profit corporation. What's in it for him is that this is the only way he'll ever get richer and more important than Bill Gates, and he's got a woody the size of Florida.
National ID card = eBay rating system (Score:5, Insightful)
It may make you *feel* safe, but when it comes down to it, anyone with a card or a good eBay rating can really screw you over.
By all accounts, many of the terrorists were quiet, neighborly people. An ID card will only allow for these people to be registered. Secuirty is not something that exists. This card is just something to make us think that it does.
Re:What the hell for? (Score:5, Insightful)
Having an ID card won't accomplish anything unless someone actually checks the data.
How the *NEXT* president responds after *NEXT* WTC (Score:3, Insightful)
Not yet. As AT&T used to say, "You will".
This is a dangerous approach to take. If we actually need a 'National ID system' to solve a specific problem (many Americans are unconvinced) then it should be designed and implemented in such a way as to solve the problem at hand, with inherent safeguards to prevent abuse, now or in the future.
If we build a system that has the potential to be abused by individuals, by corporations, or by the state, then it will be abused.
As little trust I have in our current government, I have even less reason to trust in a future administration's response to future threats.
Re:huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've bought a six pack of Bud (it lasts the week) and a large pizza most every Friday night for the last few years. In turn:
Coors wants to me buy their beer and sends me coupons. Time to deal with more junk snailmail/email.
My auto insurance company decides to "adjust" my rates because I drink. Time to work a little overtime.
My employer also decides that my eating and drinking habits could cost them money in lost hours of productivity, possible tardiness, an "on the job" injury or just too fat and drunk to show up in the future. Time to find a new job.
The police, while on a routine cruise, have been automaticly been running everyone's license plate checking for possible criminals. On Saturday morning they run my plate, see I normally have a few cold ones on Fridays and want to see if I'm sober. Time to assume the position.
Whatever happenned to the idea of privacy? What people do in their own lifes, so long as it doesn't hurt someone else, should not be the business of any goverment or companies.
pherris
Re:Hmmmm, SO? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sometimes the change was slow and carefully planned; often the change came about due to some incident that destabilized the government (or the people's voice in government). We are currently facing a situation that should make the average member of our vulgar mass of citizens sit bolt upright and drop their tv remote. Your elected officials, those politicians that are IN FACT funded by the McWorld corporate machine, are taking this crisis as the perfect opportunity to eliminate liberal democracy and replace it with intolerant conservatism.
Now is the time to guard against threats to American ideals. Not vulgar American ideas of an SUV or two in every garage and a big-screen intellect-destroying machine in every living room or ideas that are instruments of corporations gone crazy with power, but IDEALS of American freedom.
A basic freedom to pursue my life (a peaceful and non-criminal life, by the way) without fear of unreasonable interferance.
My fear might stem from the fact that I support liberal democracy and individual rights. I do not support anarchy and lawlesness and I maintain there must be laws to protect each citizen, but how long will it be before supporting liberal democracy is a crime? If the McWorld corporation figgures out a way to do it, I will be silenced because I would rather defend my rights as a free citizen than be hypnotized by the big-screen.
My fear might stem from the fact that I am a philosopher, and philosophers are usually in the first group to be put against the wall by a government out of control. Double jeapordy, so are teachers and I teach.
If you are willing to give up one iota of the freedom that I fought for (I am an honorably discharged veteran of the US Army), then shame on you. One of your responsibilities as a citizen, perhaps the most urgent and basic, is to keep a watchful eye on your government (which is supposed to be made up of the citizens, not artificial citizens called corporations) and make absolutely certain your rights and freedoms are not eroded.
As for educating you, perhaps you should read the Constitution of the United States and The Bill of Rights, along with a concise history of humanity (I suggest Arnold Toynbee). Compare what has been the form of governments in the world (and how they crumbled) with the American ideals summed up in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It will be harder for you now, you should have learned all this in grade school, but the effort will be worthwhile.
It may cause you to proudly proclaim yourself a free American. It may cause you to insist that no part of your rights be taken from you.
This just won't work, they are grasping at straws. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:huh? (Score:2, Insightful)
I live in the world's most motorized city, L.A. and have since 1997. I have never driven.
This, however, is quite different. Obviously, the intention is "security." That means anyone who does not have this can correctly be viewed as "not secure." That is different from being considered a "non-driver."
Re:Hmmmm, SO? (Score:3, Insightful)
Your elected officials, those politicians that are IN FACT funded by the McWorld corporate machine, are taking this crisis as the perfect opportunity to eliminate liberal democracy and replace it with intolerant conservatism.
This isn't a liberal vs. conservative battle. This is simply about CONTROL. Do Republicans want to control us MORE than Democrats? No, they just want to control different things. Liberals want gun control; conservatives want uterus control. I'm sure both camps would like to Lojack us all, given the chance.
Don't make this a partisan issue, you dilute the strength of the underlying message:
1. Governments tend towards more control.
2. To stave off unreasonable controls we must all be vigilant and active in the political process.
(As an aside, I believe that #2 requires strong-willed people to JOIN the government. If NO idealists went to Capitol Hill, believing the system to be 100% corrupt, it seems like things would get worse a lot faster. So become part of the political machine, Joe Citizen -- someone's got to do it.)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
the future... (Score:3, Insightful)
"ID card please."
"Excuse me, sir?"
"Your ID card please," he repeats with an gleam in his eye.
"I..I.. I think it's in my wallet, hold on." Man fumbles with his wallet as the uniformed man caresses the butt of his weapon.
"Ah, yes, this is it." The man hands it over tot he uniformed man, who checks it over.
"Where are you going, sir?"
"Well, I don't see how that's any of your business-"
"EVERYTHING is my business, sir. I'm trying to protect America from terrorists. So, WHERE are you going?"
"Why, that's preposterous! I don't have to answer that! Ever since Black Tuesday, our freedoms have been taken from us! Why, we used to never have to have our ID cards and an approval stamp to travel across the state!"
"That's enough of that!" Uniformed man blows his whistle and pulls out his gun.
"No, people, can't you understand! Help me! Help yourselves! We're being taken over by fascists! Help--"
The man falls limp. The Uniformed man wipes the butt of his weapon ont he man's shirt, after having used it as a club. The other people in the car pretend not to see anything.
"Yes sir, God Bless America. These terrorists are just like Pokemon, gotta catch em all."
Another uniformed man is going through the man's luggage.
"Hey, Joe, look at this. His laptop runs Linux. Yep, he's a terrorist all right."
Except, now we're all at risk (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm concerned about the vast information available to authorities ALREADY at the local level without tapping the ridiculous amount of potentially derogatory or negatively influential information available to federal agencies.
This issue comes up again and again when police officers are asked to consider criminal records when taking actions for otherwise minor infractions. This scares me on Orwellian levels. How can anyone expect fair treatment from authorities when now the federal government can be expected to constantly track their movements? What kind of information do local authorities really need to be able to tap in to? Racial profiling was bad, eh? Try criminal profiling. The answer isn't "if you aren't doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about." The probative value of having a federally-endorsed NATIONAL database of citizens including all types of unspecified information is FAR outweighed by the potential negative impact on the common citizen. Filing "suspicions" of criminal involvement in a database that you have no right to view is pretty fuckin scary, if you ask me.
Re:What the hell for? (Score:4, Insightful)
The difference is that I give that data willingly to these corporations. I decide that it's worth an extra $0.25 off a ribeye steak to let Harris Teeter track my spending habbits. I decide it's ok to tell Joe Bizfwick's Online Supercenter what age and gender I am so they can more accurately target my buying preferences.
It's different when you give the information away
But this is different. When the government, the government which is supposed to protect my privacy, forces me under penalty of fine (and not just 25 cents more for a steak mind you) and incarceration to divulge this information it stops being my choice. Part of privacy rights is not just the right to be left alone, but the right to decide who you tell what to. This card invalidates that. That's what sucks.
Re:Too hard to keep up with... (Score:5, Insightful)
ID cards in Europe inefficient against terrorism (Score:5, Insightful)
What is the point in this proposal? Is it to make the country more secure against illegal aliens that might be dormant terrorists? Is it to prevent criminals from usurping other people's ID?
If these are indeed the goals, then I'd suggest to take a look at developed countries that already have implemented nation-wide ID cards. Namely, Europe. Why, it's fascinating.
Because you see, illegal immigration is totally out of control in Europe. As for terrorism, Spain (Basque Separatist movements), France (Corsican Separatists, Basques, Muslims), UK (IRA), as well as Greece, Italy and Germany have had severe terrorist attacks in the 1990s in spite of strict ID card policies.
How come these countries can harbor terrorists in spite of mandatory ID cards, you ask? It's because ID cards are not a silver bullet against crime. First, they can be forged. Always. France recently replaced its obsolete ID card with an embossed, hologramed, specially printed ID card, the deployment of which was a very expensive program. All this achieved was to raise the cost of a fake ID to about 5000FF ($600-700) on the black market. The best forgeries come of course from corrupt officials who fabricated cards with fake IDs using the state-approved machines.
So unless you have totally non-corrupt officials, all you're going to achieve is put terrorism out of reach of poor students. That's a tempting solution considering what is said in some literature circles after a few vodkas. But I don't think it will be the best one.
Look at Europe, for Heaven's sake, because they already did all the stupid things before us!
Re:huh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Leap in logic (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously, I do not see why the national ID card is so objectionable.
I also do not see how it would help either.
Re:Ashcroft & Fienstien like it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh that's easy: Joe McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover. But I'd be hard-pressed to come up with another two. Feinstein in particular has yet to see a restriction of citizens' rights she doesn't like.
The question I would like to see all of these security-state morons forced to answer is this: What, in your opinion, actually would constitute excessive government intrusion into personal privacy? I'd be surprised if any of them actually had an answer. But worse, we have to deal with BS military rhetoric like this:
At a speech in Salt Lake City last week, former Desert Storm commander Schwarzkopf said he saw nothing wrong with ID cards. ``I've had a military ID card since I was a cadet at West Point and I haven't lost any freedom,'' he told a cheering crowd.
I don't know about you, but my experience in the U.S. Army was about as far and away from individual liberty as you can get outside of prison. That's not a knock against the military, BTW -- the military's job is to defend democracy, not to run one. But career brass like Gen. Schwarzkopf have spent their entire adult lives in a rigidly controlled state-within-a-state, and their qualifications to talk about what life is really like in a free society are limited at best. Of course, it's pretty clear that civilian lawyers are a little hazy on the concept, too:
``You don't give up much,'' Dershowitz said. ``Civil libertarians will come around.''
What Dershowitz doesn't get, surprisingly, is that they never ask us to give up much on any particular occasion, but it adds up to a great deal over time. I find it depressing that, only sixty years after WW2, if you want to enjoy the freedoms your grandparents had, you might want to consider emigrating to Germany. Of course, the Germans have actually had to live under the sort of state John Ashcroft would like to build for us, and of all the things I've read and heard from the people who lived under the Nazi security-state, I can't recall even one saying he felt... secure.
Re:Ex post facto... (Score:3, Insightful)
> We once had a Constitutional
> republic, a government of laws not of men.
>Now we have a tyranny of
> lawyer-politicians.
THIS is the dormant stage of the Constitutional Republic. Give it time. It may take centuries to come around. Revolution would cost much more than
comfort-stricken Americans are prepared to pay.
Let's run out of oil, and be the target of attacks time and time again, instead of just "911". Things will have to get a whole hell of a lot worse before America gets up off its ass and whips itself into shape.
What the hell was so significant about September?
It stands as one of the many national tragedies that the USA has suffered in its long history, in some ways unique, but time will heal even this wound. It started a little desert-storm type of war against an even sillier enemy which is even less capable of fighting a modern war than Iraq was. What else? Did it trigger Great Depression II? Did it start WWIII?
September 11th was neither "unthinkable" or unpredictable (in a general sense). There are
plenty of far more tragic scenarios that would
case more harm and are even more "unthinkable",
but they aren't happening.
Things have to get pretty bad before military men take up arms together with their leadership against the lawful authority of their nation.
Things are not that bad yet. Period. It's even
possible that we are not heading there!!
Re:So much spin my neck hurts ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Hey Ellison, don't drop your crack pipe!
Next time, quote a remotely believable number; 99.99% means 1 in 10,000. This would make ID cards the most decisive decision in the history of mankind.
Hang on, oh now I get it, he must have left something out. What he was going to say was, "I think that 99.99% of Americans will want these cards
Yet, even under these circumstances 99.99% is a stretch. Far more than more than 1 in 10,000 people would choose to die rather than get an ID just so they could survive. (This is very likely given that in 1999 0.01% of Americans were successful in their decision to not continue with life.) That 99.99% must also not include those whom were issued a faulty ID and slowly died of starvation while Ellison and Co. were busy trying to find and correct the error.
I submit that a national ID would, in the end, prove disasterous for Oracle. Does Ellison have any idea how much a universal ID would *reduce* the demand for databases? The database industry is as large as it is because of data redundancy. Every business or government agency that wants to store peoples' information has to store the same stuff such as name, address and phone number. With a national ID a lot of this redundant information would be eliminated. Does Ellison think he will make more money selling fewer, albeit bigger, systems to the govenment? I can't think of a situation where the profit margin improves when more companies chase fewer customers. I would think data storage companies would oppose a national ID for the same reason. Conversely, one of the biggest benefactors would be the telco's and telecom equipment makers since everybody would now just "dial in" for the info they needed.
And finally, if we do get a national ID forced upon us, I'd really like to see somebody get a hold of Ellison's and Feinstien's ID number and post it all over the world. The next thing I'd like to see is myself sitting on the jury.
Count one. Not guilty.
Count two. Not guilty.
California already does this... (Score:1, Insightful)
AND, they make you give a digitized thumb-print as well. The photo they take could be used for facial recognition, and the thumbprint is surely entered into some clandestine database somewhere...
What's the difference honestly? Heck, I even bet the DMV is powered by Oracle.
Re:huh? (Score:3, Insightful)
I live in the world's most motorized city, L.A. and have since 1997. I have never driven.
I'm guessing they either have halfway decent public transportation (which most cities don't), or you live very close to where you work.
Re:Hmmmm, SO? (Long) (Score:2, Insightful)
Pull your head out of your ass you moron. Freedom? Highschool kids going through metal detectors in school? 3 times more lawyers than engineers? Corporate States of America? Get mugged once a week, and killed every other month? Free speech gets you in jail because of whatever DMCA related bullshit corporate-sponsored law?
A long long time ago, when you made beautiful cars and put men on the moon and the American Dream actually meant something, yes, then you inspired people. Right now, noone wants to go NEAR the US and we're just waiting for it to implode and hope it will do as little damage to the rest of the world as possible.
And PS, if a German politician would go on TV *nowadays* and say "yeah we bombed the UN, the Red Cross and various civilians and 10 years after the Gulf War we STILL cant make a smart bomb smart enough to not miss by a mile sometimes but hey, them's the breaks" he'd be lynched on the streets. It's your "our civilians are worth inifitely more than yours" attitude that guarantees you will be haunted by terrorism until you get your act together.
Terrorists dont fear freedom, and are not jealous of it. What you sow you reap. And you've sown an awful lot of hate. Now you're reaping. And you know what? You haven't even *started*.
Re:Hmmmm, SO? (Score:4, Insightful)
What's wrong isn't the card, exactly. It's more a mismatch between the culture and the card concept.
I don't have any trouble registering with my Gemeinde here in Switzerland because I know that this information is respected and secured by the government and the people. Swiss people don't think "hey, how can I exploit this for money or power?" It's not part of the culture. And, as such, I feel that I have essentially nothing to worry about.
In America, however, the first thing that pops into anyones head is "hey, how can I exploit this for money or power?" It's the American mindset that grew out of the Wild West and is still strong. There is no way in hell I'd want to register with the my local police department in the US. Because I know what would come later.
The card itself is a tool. It can be used for good or bad. The culture determines which.
Devon
Re:huh? (Score:1, Insightful)
Today millions of fingerprints are scanned to identify suspects and dead bodies. These scans are done without the use of ID cards. These techniques can be used today when looking for suspects and criminals.
I believe that Mr. Ellison is feeling the crunch of the recent down turn of the economy and is trying to capitalize on the current war. Anyone who thinks that ID cards will solve the security problems is a fool. Mr. Ellison is trying to see how many fools are in the federal government. He won't have a hard time finding one in DC.
Mike
Re:Ellison Editorial in the Wall Street Journal (Score:3, Insightful)
Ellison sez:
Two hundred years ago, Thomas Jefferson warned us that our liberties were at risk unless we exercised "eternal vigilance." Jefferson lived in an age of aristocrats and monarchs. We live with the threat of terrorists getting their hands on weapons with the capacity to destroy entire cities.
George II is issuing executive orders left and right, and he's conductiing a war, though none has been declared by Congress. Ellison flies around in a Gulfstream and considers his right to land at night is more important than the San Jose ordinance that forbids it.
These two look like a monarch and an aristocrat to me.
Jefferson WAS a visionary, and his words are even more appropriate and revelant today.