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Juno And Privacy 198

Posted by michael
from the water-and-oil dept.
Karl Weiss writes: "Section 2.5 of the Juno Privacy Policy has some very interesting statements in it - you authorize them to download an app to track your usage and you can't do anything about it, you are to keep your computer on 24/7, or give them the right to make your computer call out at their desire, and they can install a screen saver on your computer with ads, and you can't get rid of it. Obviously this bothers me, but the real kicker as far as I'm concerned is that they will allow third parties to use the downloaded software. Does M$ looking for pirated software sound like a player? Or what happens if someone cracks the software? Does that open your hard drive data to anyone? As the senior network instructor at a large private computer school, I have advised faculity and staff to not use Juno due to these requirments." It looks like the few remaining free ISPs are searching for ways to make up advertising income during the dot-com meltdown, and the "solution" they've come up with is to make use of their users' computers to do distributed processing. Will Juno users realize what they are agreeing to?
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Juno and Privacy

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    "Does M$ looking for pirated software" M$? Sure, Slashdot can be taken serious.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    LOL.

    Distrubuted.Net for Dummies. SETI@home for the Stupid. Process Tree for Poseurs.

    Annoying, Pedantic, Asshole.
    There is no contradiction

    This Post Was Brought To You By Kiss The Troll
  • .. because US citizens put up with it. Plain and simple.

    Companies arrogantly push this sort of intrusive shit without so much as blinking only because people because they know they can (and will) get away with it. Please, educate the people. And get the government out of the hands of big business.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    > And oh yeah, this time I won't make the mistake of installing linux on it!!

    So you'll install FreeBSD ?
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Wrong. Lots of people here use modems.
  • does not track any usage outside of the Juno browser.
    How do you know? Have you read the source code?

    and it's not tracking where you go.
    Again, how do you know?

    What's the difference? And part of the contract requires the application to make connections to the internet and install software... the software it's installing is new banner ads and updates to the browser.
    There's a huge difference. Did you actually read the privacy policy? Only the last 2 points of the previous comments are being sarcastic. The policy really does say that Juno can download their software onto your computer, change your screensaver (which you aren't allowed to disable), and require you to run your computer 24 hrs/day (and not pay for the electricity, hope you don't live in CA).
  • there's no such thing as a free ISP.
  • Juno Countermeasure: "I guess we'll have to start running our stuff at a regular priority instead of just idle. Now your computer is slow all the time. Thank you for fucking with Juno, have a nice day."


    ---
  • Has anyone ever tried this: I was thinking that one could run Windows in a vmware session, have it connect through one of these win-only services, and then route packets through the virtual machine to the linux machine underneath. I don't know if this is possible or not. Doesn't Win98 have "intenet sharing" or something. Win2K should be able to route packets, although i've never tried it. You'd just have to figure out somewhay for it to be the default gateway.

    If you could figure this out, then you could launch your vmware session, connect it to the free service, then minimize and go on. Of course, you have to give up all that ram running vmware.

  • My father quit using Juno's dialup software as the closest number is a regional toll call.

    So far, there appears to be no problem with his Juno Webmail access (well, besides the slowness of it all).
    --

  • This brings up a good point.. Is there possibly a good time for "spam"? I think so. In this case, I would look at a mass email to *.juno would kind of be like spam civil disobedience.
  • Advertisers don't care what's selling, but they care a whole lot about what's selling to WHO. Ie, is the person who bought product A likely to buy product B, too?

    Ie, its all about DIRECTED marketing, not just marketing.
  • I don't intend to allow my children to keep a computer in their room. At this stage of the game, it is too dangerous. In the family room only, please, allowing overt monitoring of their activites online. Games et al will be handled with headphones, should the noise level get too high.

    I darn sure don't want to get a call from the FBI because my son has tried to be 733t hax0r.

    I guess the old TANSTAAFL, my personal motto for years, still holds.

    Mike
    The old curmudgeon
  • Hey,

    I said I was old, didn't I? That meens I don't know how to do leet speek.

    Bah.

    Mike
  • I'm fairly sure it was Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress [amazon.com]". I have a copy around here somewhere, gotta read it again sometime.
  • I use Juno maybe 3 hours a week. I've whacked any ActiveX control, any service, and any process I don't recognize. I hibernate the machine 'cause I'm on dialup. There's no reason to keep it running [I do my surfing at work; where'd you think this post is coming from?] Nothing's happened so far.

    If anything, I receive messages now and then that my usage pattern is just fine and dandy with them, and there are Stygian tortures awaiting those that abuse the service. I think these people will be getting the extra features.

    Not worried about Microsfot; I work for them.
  • Whine, Whine, Wine -- [hint, hint, wink, nudge, nudge, grin, grin, wink, wink]
  • ianal, but i do know a bit about US contract law, and this particular clause would be found if you went to court. you cannot agree to a contract when you are not aware of the terms.
  • We need to spam them for their own good. We should also spam them with a make money at home email so they can afford a real ISP....
  • At work we've just got mandatory setup for NT, desktop, screensaver colours, everything. This kinda messed with the guys doing spectrogram processing, 'coz the OpenGL, unturn-offable, screensaver sucks the cycles. Solution? Get an old mouse, glue the ball to a magnetic flea stirrer and leave it clamped in a stand over the revolving magnetic base; an always-moving mouse and the screensaver doesn't turn on! Just don't try this energy-friendly trick in California...
  • >There ought to be a law!! Get the FCC or someone to rule that ANY ISP must support ANY operating system, AND at the SAME price. (The one I use now has a much lower priced version than what I'm paying, but it's another damn Windoze-only ad-based version!)
    >

    So you say they ought to provide something for nothing, by law, eh?

    Yeah, and they ought to pass a law that everyone should do 10+ hours of volunteer work at a local charity. Think of the good _that_ would do!
  • >One by one, we have watched free ISP services dry up and blow away. Now we are getting onerous usage agreements. Folks, I expect that this is the death knell for the free ISP.
    >

    The market works by the free exchange of goods and services, that are mutually beneficial. If one side doesn't like their part of the deal, they don't make it. The free ISP model is: the ISP gives you access and service; you give something. Supposedly, both parties benefit. Too bad for the ISPs, what they ask from users, the users have hated to give, or what they got from users wasn't worth anything. The only way to survive is to ask users to give something that's worth something to somebody, and the users don't hate giving it.

    1) eyeballs looking at seizure-inducing banner ads? Didn't work, users hate it and it's not worth squat.
    2) CPU cycles for distributed computation? I don't think it will work, I hate the idea of dialups in the middle of the night and who knows what info they're collecting?

    What would you give that's worth something to the ISP, that most people don't hate to give? I'll tell you what: a small amount of cash (~$20/month), and that model is what is working, with ISPs you pay for.
  • > don't know any major national ISP that allows the above. You can usually get local access if you know someone at an ISP, but you know that that friend leaving is likely to be the end of that option. I came across one DSL operator that offers all of the above and they don't operate in my area.

    How about a bunch of us /.-ers doing this? Surely this is an untapped goldmine! Maybe we could do an IPO soon? Surely there are lots of investors whom we could show that our proposal is an unstoppable money maker!

    Better yet, let's get the government to make it happen. Why not get the government to do the dirty work (coercive taxes) of funding to let us do our noble task of wiring the world to the internet. That will vastly improve everyone's life, they can order water and food online using PayPal! (or a gov't version of PayPal, where they get welfare credits) And why should some redneck spend that money going bowling. What a loser sport! Better they "voluntarily" pay that money to my noble cause.

    (OK, sorry for the ranting, why are so many people so ignorant of the market, is that why we have so many socialists and Marxists? For a real education in economics, go to http://www.mises.org)

    BTW, the reason the service a few of us want (run services, big bandwidth [not related to big bands]) is so expensive is that it's a pain for companies to do that nationally for a small market. You _can_ get this (T1+), but you pay the bucks. You have to play to the market to make money, and we are a pitiable minority.
  • I guess the absurdity of forced "volunteer" work escaped you...it's just a form of slavery.

  • Better yet.. sign it, and then violate the hell out of the motherfscker. Remove the screensaver. Turn your PC off if you want to. Whatever. Nothing bad will happen to you.
  • This gives idiots a chance to use the Internet. Not necessarily a good thing but they generally just go to web-based chatrooms and play with the emoticons anyway. I doubt a person using Juno could figure out how to pirate software.
  • ...and the server at work just blew up. But can your boss contact you? Nope, Juno is using the phone line without your knowledge. You sleep contently until the next night, when you worry about where you are working next.
  • and please actually get a clue about the service and stop accepting what people post here as gospel truth.
  • privacy policy [juno.com]

    We are proud to be a member of the TRUSTe certification program. TRUSTe is an independent, non-profit initiative whose mission is to build Internet users' trust and confidence in the services they use by promoting TRUSTe's principles of fair information practices. In accordance with TRUSTe's principles, we disclose our information practices and have agreed to have TRUSTe review our practices for compliance.

    When you see the TRUSTe mark, you can expect to be notified of:

    What types of information are being collected about you
    How you can update or correct such information
    How the information will be used
    With whom the information will be shared

    We use the information our subscribers provide to personalize their Internet experience and to meet the needs of our advertisers. For example, while all our members see advertisements, they don't all have to see the same advertisements. If we know that a particular user loves to ski, we might show her an ad for winter vacations; a user who indicates that he has young children might see an ad for pre-school toys. By targeting content in this way, we can make it more likely that the marketing messages and offers on Juno are of interest to the people who see them, which serves both our subscribers' and our advertisers' interests. You agree that we may use Member Profile and other information you provide or relating to your use of the Service to, among other things, facilitate the distribution of information to you by others and administer the Site and maintain and improve the Service.

    We also collect data to help us operate our services.
    We will not intentionally monitor or disclose any private e-mail message or online communication, although we reserve the right to monitor accounts that are believed to be acting in violation of the Service Agreement, Guidelines for Acceptable Use, or any applicable law or regulation; to protect the integrity of our Service or the Internet community as a whole; or pursuant to request of governmental or legal authority.

    In addition to the data you may provide through the Member Profile and other surveys, we may collect information relating to how you use the Service (including, for example, information relating to your frequency of use, navigational information such as the uniform resource locator (URL) of the Web pages you visit, configuration information such as the type of Web browser you are using, your Internet Protocol (IP) address, processor type and operating system, and information relating to the display of any advertisements transmitted to you).

    We keep confidential any personal information that might identify you. Some of the information we collect from our users could identify them personally. Such "Identifier Information" includes a person's name, address, e-mail address, credit card number, and telephone number. We will not share any individual's personal Identifier Information with a third party without that individual's consent (except as required or requested by law, regulation or governmental authority -- it is Juno's policy to cooperate fully with legal authorities -- or as set forth in this Privacy Statement). We may disclose to advertisers or other third parties statistical information derived through the aggregation of information you provide or relating to your use of the Service with information associated with all or some subset of the other subscribers to the Service -- for example, we might inform an advertiser interested in marketing a product on the West Coast of the number of Juno subscribers who live in California -- but we will not share the names or addresses (or other Identifier Information) of any of those subscribers without their consent.

  • ...to their customer base. The underhandedness will inevitably backfire. If they had offered the functionality of "background processing" to their users, possibly partnering with some other entity (can you say SET@Home?) for "an exciting endeavor -- fun for the whole family!", perhaps they'd smell like roses instead of crap.
  • How about nursing?
  • by dave-fu (86011)
    I've got my P/100 (with a whopping 16 MB of RAM) running Win95, and a 5 node Syncrhonet BBS [synchro.net].
    It'll stay up for weeks at a time (power outages aside). Plus I play NetHack on it. I've even used Word now and then because my newer box still doesn't have a perfectly legitimate backup copy installed onto it yet.
    I'm still wondering how I haven't killed that box yet.
  • Something about being my full-time computer for three years of college; many, many "backup" copies of various and sundry software was installed and uninstalled, sometimes multiple times. It just keeps on ticking, and I'm not really sure how.
    Standby mode? Ha ha. This old clunker doesn't have it. I leave a screensaver on, but the monitor stays off unless I need to get at the BBS to fix an issue with the doors hanging, so it's a moot point anyhow.
  • All you have to do is run one of the countless "mouse-wiggling key-typing" simulator programs that were used to defeat anti-idle mechanisms in AllAdvantage and then you're once again home free.

    No idle = no screensaver = no cycles for Juno

    Right?

    - JoeShmoe
  • With Telocity DSL you are connected 24/7 (duh!), get a static IP address, are able to run "personal" servers, and in BellSouth areas is about $50/month. Of course, if you abuse the service, I suspect they'll yank your service. For an extra $10/month they will give you extra IP's and some silly firewall service too. They are not perfect (they had some really horrible problems about a month ago), but they are not too bad.
  • Consider your numbers, and apply them to a company of 20,000 employees. That's 800,000 lost minutes or 13,333 lost man hours per week. Given an average salary of $15/hr, that's $200,000 a week, or $10.4M a year!
  • I would think that they thought of that, but you never know.

    Wouldn't the DMCA also prevent this, making it illegal to install a program on your computer that moves the mouse. When will the insanity end?
  • Yes they can. It's binding on the non-minor party and voidable by the minor.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    And in exchange for agreeing to the above, Shell will give you unlimited free gasoline.

    Can you imagine how many people will accept that?
    They'd drive the other companies out of business...
  • by Anonymous Coward
    What happens if we have a rolling blackout? Will Juno sue me for not buying my own generator?

    2.5 ... You agree that, as between you and Juno, you shall be responsible for any costs or expenses resulting from the continuous operation of your computer, including without limitation any associated charges for electricity. If you are a resident of the State of California, Juno may require you to purchase and operate a power generator or other alternate energy source in order to ensure the continuous operation of your computer. Juno is not responsible for the costs associated with the operation of any power source. If you are a not a resident of California, Juno may still require you to purchase and install an Uninteruptible Power Supply (UPS). Furthermore, you must obtain written permission to reboot your computer. You agree to set your screensaver to activate after 5 seconds of inactivity. Juno may require you to disconnect your mouse and other input devices which may interfere with the operation of the screensaver (which is an integral part of the service). You must monitor your computer continuously in case the "Computational Software" locks-up or requires assistance. This assistance may require the user to perform simple math. In case of a system lock-up (crash), you must reboot your system in a timely manner (within 30 seconds). If these duties are not performed properly (as determined by Juno), you agree that Juno may -- at its own discretion -- sieze your computer and operate it in accordance with this contract at a location of Juno's choosing until the expiration of your contracted service. You agree to pay any costs associated with operating the computer during this time, including electricity and storage fees.

    Ok, I went a little overboard...
  • Have you looked at folding@home?

    On my P600, I only got through one or two 'batches' in a day if leave it run, and this I would condiser to be an mid-to-top range system. The people that will be using Juno will most likely have low-to-mid range PCs (why else would they be using a free Juno), and I would expect one 'batch' of folding@home data would take several days to complete.

    Thus, if I were Juno, all I know is that I would have to send enough 'batches' to last a month on one of these systems, and expect that the user would be calling up every week or so, as to get their results and then to put another new week of problems to be solved.

    You need to remember that the way most of the distributed programs work is that they work in large, independent chucks of data; they don't have to talk to the controlling process as often as typical pallarel processing data.


  • If you don't like it - don't sign it.

    Mind you, they obviously think that they will be left with enough subscribers after all the complainants have gone to make the system viable.

    It's like using e-mail at work - if you don't want someone else to control your machine, move.

    At least, for these people, there is a choice. There's enough Big Brother gear out there already (or coming) that is a hell of a lot more worrying ...
  • We reserve the right to:

    eat breakfast at your house
    service or get serviced by your wife
    dress up your kids in funny costumes
    sell your dog
    impersonate you while we rob a bank
    take all your money
    make you cluck like a chicken
    tattoo you
    shave your head, laugh at you and point
    take all your money
    spy on you
    threaten you
    prosecute you
    take all your money
    allow other people to spy on you
    allow other people to threaten or prosecute you
    make you dance naked around a fire
    take all your money

    If you can read this you already agreed to it.
  • My wife started using Juno years ago before I had an ISP that would give me multiple email addresses, and long before all the popular Web based email providers (a.k.a., yahoo and hotmail). She has continued to use it because she likes the interface, even though I now PAY FOR an always on cable account (Roadrunner). It's always been a decent service, with a reasonably good interface, and doesn't add any expense on top of the existing ISP.

    However, with this change in the privacy statement, I may encourage her to move over to some other service!!!

    --

  • I must admit I aws someehwat confused - being a regular buyer from the Juno Website - It's my favourite way to get hot Vinyl from the UK....

    Then I realised this was juno.com instead of juno.co.uk.

    juno.com are a load of wankers
  • You've obviously never ran SETI@Home or RC5. The uplink speed is irrelevant to parallel processing. It downloads large chunks of data, analyzes them offline for a while, and then uploads results. It is not a continuous up/down link.
  • What's the origin of TANSTAAFL? The first place I saw it was a Heinlein book... Maybe the Cat Who Walks Through Walls?
    ---
  • Of course, I've read everything he wrote, just forgot my timeline for a second. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was practically a libertarian manifesto, so of course that's where it would appear. Didn't the Loonies even put it on their flag?
    ---
  • Please read this Service Agreement carefully. Together with the Guidelines for Acceptable Use and the Privacy Statement, it governs your use of the Internet access and other information, communication and transaction services (collectively called the "Service") provided to you by Juno Online Services, Inc. ("Juno"). This Agreement, the Guidelines and the Privacy Statement supersede all prior communications and agreements with regard to their subject matter; the current version of each may be found at Juno's Web site at http://help.juno.com/policies.


    So, if you're a Juno user, you have to use the service to tell if there's a new agreement. Conversely, you basically agree to it by using the service, so you're stuck every time you decide to dial-up -- "is there a new agreement which signs all my property over? I don't know...but I'll find out!"

    I hate licenses distributed in this way, changable without proper informing. You'd be a fool to sign a contract in the first place that can be superceded by an update on a webpage.
  • `` I've got an old Pentium 120 sitting in my bedroom ... I'm really considering Linux for that machine''

    Go for it. I have two P100s that I was got for US$0 since the the school that had received them as a donation found they couldn't run Windows well enough to be useful. And, no, they weren't interested in having Linux installed. I hang my head in shame at this advocacy failure). At least I was able make use of these systems and extend the useful lifetime of the local landfill by a bit. One of them found a new lease on life as a nice little system for C programming (the wife was taking a course). The other now lives on, after the addition of a couple of oleder IDE drives, as an LPRng/Samba server that sits in the basement and allows me to print from my Linux boxen and the wife and kids to have more disk space and print from the Windows box in the spare bedroom. I wouldn't even want to consider running Windows on a machine of that vintage. But with Linux it is quite usable (though X is a bit pokey depending on what you're trying to do).


    --

  • I guess you aren't allowed to use Juno from a laptop...
  • As far as I'm concerned, if a company(M$) did this to me, that's stealing cycles, power, and bandwidth.

    Stealing? How can it be stealing, if they:

    1. Tell you ahead of time
    2. You agreed to it
    3. You are receiving something in exchange for it (internet access)
    4. You can always say No and switch to another ISP
    ?

    It will make sense if customer backlash and market forces kill this. It will be a travesty of justice if lawsuits kill this.


    ---
  • by Zugot (17501)
    Who knows what Juno will be doing, they don't tell you.

    Actually, if you read the article that was pointed to on Juno's site, you would realize that they are going to be using it for bioinformatics research. They even hired on a leader in the field to head up the project.

  • Let's see where this will lead:
    1. A lot of people who see and understand this agreement will go through the roof. Easier to switch providers or just put a crowbar in their wallet and pay for an ISP.
    2. Some people are going to see this, see a challenge, and find ways to do wonderfully hideous things to Juno. There's plenty of people out there with programming skills who love sticking it to companies with outrageous ideas like this.
    3. The program and the processing cycles and the screen saver are going to cause problems on any number of computers - we all remember the joys of installing something harmless that then exploded unexpectedly. Expect to loose customers and maybe even expect some lawsuits.
    4. Juno seems anxious to find all sorts of ways to kick customers off for not complying. If they follow through with these requrements - less customers.
    5. The basic idea is pretty hare-brained as it is - it sounds like desperation already. Desperation does not produce sound business models.
    6. With this news making the rounds already, expect lost customers, angry customers, and humiliation from the get-to.

    End result? Another company with a death wish and no concept of how the Internet and the world work.

    Goodbye Juno.

  • One by one, we have watched free ISP services dry up and blow away. Now we are getting onerous usage agreements. Folks, I expect that this is the death knell for the free ISP.

    I wonder, though, if we will see a time where internet service becomes a commodity item like power or telephone? If so, when? What about folks like us who want full server support in our homes?

    Mostly rhetorical questions, but I am curious. In my area, there are numerous options for v.90 dial-up ISPs, but only one option for fast access (@home, ugh). No DSL, no choices for ISP with the cable infrastructure.

    Of course, I have used the free ISPs in the past to handle internet access when I've been travelling, as @home's dialup access is breath-takingly expensive.

    I'm rambling.

    See ya,
    Mike
  • Well, if you are getting "free" Juno service (if such a thing still exists), you should really just get a decent job and kick out $15-$20 a month for a real dialup account.

    On the one hand, this is an egregious violation of the consumer, but on the other hand, it does present the possibility of really harnessing the power of every computer connected to the net. I think if ISPs start programs like this, they should either be opt-in (e.g., for some discount), or have some very strict limitations, like most of the distributed computing projects.
  • I was especially impressed by the following clause which requires you to let their software make outgoing modem calls - at your expense:

    If your usage of the Service is infrequent, Juno's ability to obtain the results of completed computations may be impaired. Consequently, you expressly permit and authorize Juno to initiate a telephone connection from your computer to Juno's central computers using a dial-in telephone number you have previously selected for accessing the Service; Juno agrees that it shall exercise such right only to the extent necessary, as determined in Juno's sole discretion, to upload the results of completed computations to Juno in a timely fashion; and you agree that, as between you and Juno, you shall be responsible for any costs and expenses (including without limitation any applicable telephone charges) resulting from the foregoing.

    -- "The installation program has located your credit card number and is ordering other software packages you need"
  • FROM: The Cable Company

    We have changed our Terms of Service. You hereby agree to leave your television on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with the volume at least 75% of maximum. Furthermore you agree not to watch Public Television or any channel without advertisements. You agree not to use your television for the viewing of videotapes, videodiscs, DVDs, video games, or any service other than we provide. You agree to sit in the couch in front of said TV at least six (6) hours every day, and to consume at least eight (8) servings of food products advertised on our service.
  • Why not just put this in your PROFILE EXEC?

    'CP SET TIMEOUT OFF'

    By default, our system kicks you off after 1 hour.

  • or buy a vibrator and tape it to your mouse.
    of course, this wouldn't be good for people in conservative homes, or people like me that have the computer in their bedroom. (I can deal with my 15 cooling fans, but a vibrator? woah!)


    Wouldn't it be even MORE advantageous to the people who keep their computer in the bedroom? You wouldn't have to run down to the basement to get your vibrator when you were busy checking out the pr0n. Easy, instant access.


    -The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
  • i love how the above post is a joke and people moderated it as insightful.

    it's not insightful you morons, it's sarcastic. Juno is actually quite a good service. yes, their banner ad application/browser is a pain, but hell, it's free and I get a nice 56kbps connection every time.

    what happens is that when you connect to Juno, it starts up the Juno browser which includes the banner ad server/tracker in a window. You can't get this window off the screen, and to close the window, you disconnect yourself. Darn. But the window does not track any usage outside of the Juno browser. So you can be connected through Juno, but using Nutscrape, and it's not tracking where you go. Hell, this is really no different than AllAdvantage, 'cept instead of being paid $20/month, you're getting a free ISP ($20/month value)

    What's the difference? And part of the contract requires the application to make connections to the internet and install software... the software it's installing is new banner ads and updates to the browser.

    Hell, rant on me because I'm supporting Juno. But it's a good service, they've always looked out for their customers by giving them free service, or a fairly inexpensive alternative, and the quality as well as the customer service is deserving of the money you pay (unlike many other ISP's)
  • This is like saying "AOL has bad terms of service." The nerds for whom the news is don't give a flying fuck. We've all got nailed dedicated connections, static IPs and are willing to pay for the service. Anyone still using a modem much less a free internet service isn't really in the demographic, are they?
  • That's the law in the US. You only have to be 13 for them to collect personal data.

    True. Note that Klerck [slashdot.org] is usually just a goat troll and his posts start at -1, but today he has posted an accurate and useful tidbit. If anyone has a spare mod point, please reward him.

    I work in K12 distance education, so I deal with this issue all the time. The Children Online Privacy Protection Act [slashdot.org] specifies that internet sites are not allowed to collect personal information from anyone age 12 or less without parental permission (preferably in writing). The obvious flip side is that age 13 or older is fair game.

  • ...because Juno is not a monopoly. Anyone using them is trading some of his time, privacy and computing resources for internet access. I've only ever met one Juno user. He was an utter idiot (one of those 'computers are only tools' idiots) and I don't think he'd object to this policy even if he had the attention span to read it.
    What would really send my blood pressure up is a cable modem provider or similar bandwidth monopolist making these concessions mandatory for users. As long as Juno is not depriving people of choice, they can implant chips in their victims' skulls for all I care.
  • Yes, that's the true nightmare. It's offensive enough that some areas are only served by cable modem monopolists who favor Windows, ban customer servers, cap upstream bandwidth, cache web content, and of course do a terrible job adminning their own servers. A bandwidth provider that serves 90% of the market while leaving 10% angry and out in the cold could succeed and could remove the incentive for competing firms.
    I don't think the evil DSL provider needs to be free, though. Remember when we had broadcast TV (free, with ads) and cable ($$, no ads) ? We ended up with cable that costs money and has ads. So we could end up with a situation where *every* DSL provider does this, no matter how much they charge.
  • This isn't going to work. Distributed computing over 56K dialup modems is simply commercially infeasible.

    Why? Because an embarassingly parallel commercially interesting problem is an oxymoron. The interesting problems are ones which require inter-node communication of at very least tens of MB/day.

    Computer scientists have known this for decades. That's why linpack [top500.org] is used as a supercomputing benchmark, while RC5 is not.

    The interesting problems are the hard ones, the ones which aren't embarassingly parallel. The ones which can't run off of a 56K dialup modem.
  • Cross Juno with any Free DSL service and you get a privacy invasion racket that will have all the bandwidth they need to send them all the data they want concerning you, without your average user ever really noticing it.

    If enough clueless users sign up, and these free DSL services can survive on selling personal data, this could knock a lot of other for-pay DSL services out of business. You can then view a microcosm of hell itself when certain cities are only serviced by Juno-like free DSL providers, and the only way some people can get online, is through these people.

    The 2 big barriers, of course, are
    1) consumer awareness of the dangers of a Juno-like service (which is actually pretty high);
    2) the danger that the free DSL/dialup services will collapse because they cannot meet operating costs with the income they're getting from advertising / personal information trafficking.

    The advantage the Juno type provider has, of course, is that they are free. They can also make deals with e-tailers (like Amazon) to get their customers lower prices, etc.

    Suddenly, all that Biblical talk about the mark of the beast, is starting to make sense...
    ========================
    63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
    ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,
  • presently my dad uses juno to do his email. that and solitaire is all the computer ever gets used for. you know i don't know whether to care or not. if they want the few random processor cycles from a 300Mhz pc that is mostly off and doesn't have a dedicated phone line they are welcome to them. So long as i don't have to constantly show my dad how to send his email. I mean have you used Juno. Its KISS. (keep it simple stupid) My dad needs that. I need him to have it. I'm thinking Emacs is a bit beyond him.
  • And since it is against the agreement to reverse-engineer the software, you are not allowed to even try to find out just WHAT it may be doing (above and beyond what they tell you). And if you do, they'll probably invoke the DMCA just like in that filtering software (sorry I forgot which company) vs reverse-engineer legal fiasco that happened in the not too distant past.
  • or buy a vibrator and tape it to your mouse. That would work too, and would defeat any "use of software to decry juno of revenue... blah blah..." arguements.
    of course, this wouldn't be good for people in conservative homes, or people like me that have the computer in their bedroom. (I can deal with my 15 cooling fans, but a vibrator? woah!)
    ---
  • "2.1. You agree to provide Juno with accurate, current and complete information, to the extent required by Juno for your registration as a subscriber of the Service or at any time thereafter, and to maintain and to update this information as required to keep it accurate, current and complete. You agree in your enrollment and in your use of the Service not to impersonate any other person or entity, and you represent that you are 13 years of age or older."

    You only have to be 13 years old!!! It's bad enough to exploit people in general, but now they are going to exploit children. And I thought saturday morning cartoons were bad about commercials.

    Now the extra computer in your kids room will have a trojan virus (juno) on it transmitting every site your kid goes to back to juno. Then of course they can have it dial out to them. It's sad, I remember when we didn't have to read license agreements they were.... wait, no i don't nevermind, they have always sucked. It's just really bad, because the average computer user doesn't realize "big" companies do these sorts of things and probably never read the agreements.

    And of course we can't forget what a security risk juno could possibly be, but I guess it's only a smudge in light of the OS it runs on ;)
  • Would there be any way to send emails to all Juno users, bringing this clause to their attention? This is an extremely scummy piece of legalese and should be shot down before others think they can get away with it.
  • From Juno's website: "The Juno Virtual Supercomputer Project will make use of patented technology Juno currently employs in connection with its display of advertising to download computational tasks to subscribers' computers for processing offline during time when such subscribers are not using their computers. The results of such offline computations will then be uploaded to Juno's central computers during a subsequent connection, in much the same way that Juno currently collects responses to the advertisements it shows offline. Applications will run as "screen savers" on the computers of participating subscribers when their machines would otherwise be idle, performing calculations when the computer is on but not in use. " Does this sound to anyone else like they are trying to patent SETI online's technology? Distributed computing using a screensaver to capture idle cycles. --Chris
  • Could this be the root cause of California's energy crisis? All those Juno screen savers calculating away 24 by 7? We already know the answer and it's 42. Bad Juno.

  • Admittedly I had a Juno account. Actually I still do because I can't cancel it. I called their toll-free number to cancel, and was informed that you have to log-in to do so. Well, I deleted the software a while ago when I stoped using it and didn't actually cancel the account because I figured it wasn't worth the effect (could never actully connect anyway). Now to cancel the account I would have to reinstall the software, agreeing to the new terms which I refuse to do. And I am therefore stuck with an account that I can't get rid of. Their supervisor insists that this isn't a problem, IT IS A PROBLEM. I don't know what else to do about it. Whoever, if anyone would like to send large, frequent emails to my account that I can't get rid of, feel free, the address is gimpysquid@juno.com
  • What really strikes is that Juno has brought in Yuri Rozenman, formerly of Applied Biosystems and with 13 years of experience in the bioinformatics field, to head up the project as vice president in charge of the Virtual Supercomputer Network. (source: here [internetnews.com]). The link between Applied Biosystems [appliedbiosystems.com] and informatics is the automation and analasys of genetical sequences
    - this gives me the creeps - can you imagine ... collecting data on all those people
  • I just read the whole policy and wow, they just keep on getting better.

    Yes, they do. After all, could it be that they are taking a cue from open source projects like distributed.net and using it to maybe make some money? What criminals! How dare they run a business!

    1. They can download stuff to your computer and make it do work. 2. It works like a screen saver and you are not ALLOWED to disable it. You also cannot un-install Windows or they will simply kill you.

    Yep, they will kill you. Seriously, what is so bad about letting a company use your clock cycles for goods / services? Hell, enough people do it for free. Maybe Juno should try cracking RC-5 and you would be less angry at them.

    3. They can make your computer call their servers to upload results and any other thing they find on your computer, because you wont know. 4. They may require you to keep your computer on 24 hours a day, and oh by the way are NOT responsible for the electricity it consumes. Why should they be, you're stupid not to have read the policy in the first place.

    Whether they reserve the right to upload anything on your computer to their servers or not, do you think it might be possible that they are uploading the results they are paying you to compute? Yes, paying you in the form of a PPP connection.

    5. They are not responsible for any damages caused by your computer working on a problem while you are not on it. This will probably include very intensive Mathematical Calculations that I know a overclocked processor will just love.

    Oh, come on. This is just whining now. Do you really, honestly, and truly believe that your computer is going to melt because its calculating sin 34 to 5943 decimal places instead of rendering images of toasted demons all over your monitor? A clause like this is pretty common in all software, even back in the shareware days when programmers would abdicate themselves from responsibility of what their program unintentially did. As a user, it is usually worth taking the risk. Businesses that like to crash people's computers don't generally make money (with the exception of MS)

    6. They can send someone to your house to turn your computer on if you leave it off. Why not. It

    Yeah. I want that job.

    7. They can all laugh at you for actually agreeing to this. Then having Jim win the office pool becasue he guessed right on the amount of people that never will read the agreement anyway.

    Are you going to blame Juno for their users not reading the contract? You have to be pretty lame to think that there isn't a price to pay for a service like Juno. I used a free ISP service for a bit. I had no illusions about the rights I was having taken away from me for it. Look, most people don't give a rat crap if someone is looking through their garbage or the last 5 internet sites they visited. Its useless information to them.

    Yes, companies like this are sorta gay. I think its rather dumb too, and the business model is likely to fail. I agree there. I even agree that people should be more mindful of what they agree to when they click through things on their computer. Totally true. And companies shouldn't try to hide their agreements, but make them upfront. A click through licence is pretty up front. It takes like 1 minute to scan through one of those things and look for nasty buggers. People who don't do it are ignorant or lazy (or both).

    My point is, that Juno shouldn't be flamed for offering a service like this. They aren't violating anyone's rights. Instead, people should be educated about what they can get into with these free services, and should be mindful of what they are giving up, and if they are willing to do so. I think that the power of data mining w/ targeted advertising, etc is underestimated by the general public. That's because it is new. People will eventually see that those of us who guard our privacy do so not because we are paranoid, but because we don't want to be subject to the immense power of targeted mass-advertising. It is annoying, and sometimes it is downright uncomfortable. But as long as they don't realize it, companies like Juno will still be around, and will continue to have the right to run their business as they see fit.

  • Free DSL is really crap because the provider needs to pay out a bunck of cash to the local carrier / CLEC to get service established. You think they'll be able to pay for that with ads, distributed computing, paid Napster servers, or porn server farms?! If so, I have a bridge [endex.com] to sell you.

    Disclaimer: I am a DSL product manager for a non-free ISP. But this also means I have seen some of the economics (like, it costs money...) of DSL.

  • Obviously they plan on generating their revenue by winning every cracking compo on distributed.net by using every Juno user's pc for their own team.

  • Jesus Christ on a crutch... AOL actually looks good compared to this!

    Hey, wait a sec... if you're a Juno user in Texas, and someone shows up to turn your computer back on, if you tell them to get off your property and they don't, you can shoot them...

    Also, if they enter your house (or apartment) while no one is there, you can probably hit them with illegal entry. They might be allowed access to your computer, but I'm damn sure that you have to be present at the time. Otherwise who knows what else they may have done while in your place.

    Kierthos
  • Would this have anything to do with the fact that Netzero recently sued Juno over a patent on their ad-delivery window concept? A story I believe I submitted to /. some time ago and never saw. Is this Juno's way of getting some miniscule amount of revenue back?

    I would provide a link to the page on Netzero where I saw notice of the suit, but it appears to have moved.
  • Let's face it, juno is at their ends. This is a last ditch effort to gain some investment funding from somebody. New angle, give us $10 million so we can last another year... The fact is the revenue is not going to be made with this policy, the free isp model is 100% flawed in the current market, and well i don't blame them for trying, they are trying to feed their families, and the freenet idea is a very noble cause. Only way i ever see the freenet idea working is if the government comes in and backs it up for those (elderly, lower income) with some of our hard earned tax money.
  • Juno seems to be following a trend - that where ISPs are getting cheaper, towards the goal of free as in beer, there is a drying up of free as in speech access. I'd gladly pay a little more (up to $50) for an ISP that lets me use its services 24/7, with a static IP and the right to run my own servers (I just want to host my own homepages, receive mail by SMTP and be able to telnet/ssh in), but the options are drying up.

    I don't know any major national ISP that allows the above. You can usually get local access if you know someone at an ISP, but you know that that friend leaving is likely to be the end of that option. I came across one DSL operator that offers all of the above and they don't operate in my area.

    I suspect Juno's T&Cs, while extreme, are probably the sign of things to come. Until most people are willing to pay a fair price for Internet access, everyone will find their options disappearing. An interesting twist on the term "The "free" market".
    --

  • Yup. Telocity is the ISP I mentioned that offers the features I want but isn't available in my area. *grumblemutter*

    Damn I'd put up with a 28.8 link though if it had the features I want...
    --

  • Does anyone else here think that Juno is getting into some pretty deep water here?
    If they don't make this VERY explicit in installation, etc. I think they might be in for

    A. Backlash, i.e. everyone taking off.

    B. Lawsuit. As far as I'm concerned, if a company(M$) did this to me, that's stealing cycles, power, and bandwidth.

  • Here is the thing. Why should we not blame Juno for this? It is true that companies are allowed to do what is within the law. I dont really care if they are doing this or not. I will not use their service and tell others not to do so. But most people dont read the liscense and just agree to whatever pops on their screen. Does that make it right? No.

    And yes I know their program will not hurt any processor or hardware. And most people wont even know it is running. The point I was trying to make is, How FAR will companies go to make money? I am seriously thinking about installing this and putting a filter just to see WHAT data it transmits.

    These are the sort of tactics by companies that have no monetary income except for advertising. Since most people in general hate advertising and just ignore it, Juno is looking for a way to make money. Their idea is not even original. SETI@Home have been doing this for years, and I have NO problem with their software running on my computers becuase it is for genuine research, sort of. Who knows what Juno will be doing, they don't tell you.

    The thing that I also do not like is that they may require you to keep your computer on 24 hours a day, and you cannot disable the screensaver that runs while processing. Last time I checked, I payed for my computers and I will turn them off whenever I damn well please. I'm starting to rant, so I'll just shut up now.

    Lord Arathres
  • I believe that this Juno accident is only the first one. "we" were lucky because someone spotted it, but who knows how may software are installed and how many licence agreements are subscribed that will allow even worse things?
    I think that Juno can decide to wake you up in the morning by playing some high-volume Disco music (and that would be funny), or just decide to pursue legally ANYONE who accidently turned off their computer.
    I wonder if they should sue microsoft for making unreliable operating systems that cannot stay up more than few days, and so preventing any user to obey the licence terms of juno (and that would be scary).

    I wonder if we're slowly going back to the old days, when people weren't thinking about making money online. Perhaps in 10 years we'll have 2 different networks, e-internet or some weird trendy name network (created to make money), and a 'undernet' in its real meaning, where people ("geeks") will pursue the real goal of a worldwile network: communication.

    Personally, I don' care too much about this Juno accident: they'll sue users, make their computer a slave, recreate Big Brother or whatever (think about users who have a webcam and uses Juno...). On the long run they aren't affecting those who have enough knowledge to hack around.

    Freedom trough the power of human mind will survive. Losers will get caught in a Web of dot-coms doomed to eat each other forever.

    just my .005$ (inflaction will soon bring it to 20$, but that's another story)
  • Ethics are typically those things we can justify morally so that we feel it is right. Therefore, the implication is that ethics is a subjective measure, at times measured by an individual and at other times measured by a collective society. A society which believes that, for example, every child is a living human from first fertilization, would find it unethical to clone humans for scientific purposes, as it would be "experimenting on humans." However, a society which perhaps puts the value on life after they pass some rite of initiation (mind you, only an example), might see no ethical problem with cloning humans, as they are seen as "sub-human" or inferior.

    The term "Right" suggests some form of unchanging absolute which society cannot define because it is defined outside of society. The idea of what this "Right" is typically comes from religions (such as Christianity, Muslim/Islam, and others) and suggests that no matter whether society says it is right or wrong, it still measures up to this idea of absolute "Right". As a Christian myself, I believe there are four absolutes - An absolute Right, an absolute Wrong, an absolute God, and that everything in the world is relative. So it was merely my religious beliefs reflected within my writing.
  • by Genom (3868) on Friday February 02, 2001 @04:28AM (#462491)

    This is clearly posted in their privacy policy and terms of service.

    ...which, assuming Juno is your only ISP, they can change without notice while you're offline, then you implicitly agree to while you connect to them, before you even have a chance to read it. Dirty pool.

    People are smart enough to read and understand TOS's, if they choose not to then they shouldn't act surprised when revelations like this occur.

    The problem with this logic is that, quite frankly, our society goes out of it's way to tell people "You're not smart enough to understand legalese - that's why laywers go to law school" -- so the average Joe, who may or may not actually be smart enough, and posess an advanced enough vocabulary to comprehend the legalese, generally doesn't think that they CAN understand it, so why bother reading it. Most people in the US at least are sheep. They trust others implicitly when it comes to stuff like this. They trust Juno NOT to have crap like this in their agreement -- not that that's right at all, I'm just making a point here.

    Using Juno is a choice. If you don't like their choices, DON'T use them.

    I agree wholeheartedly - but WE'RE not the ones who need to know about this. The "sheep" need to know about this. I like the idea that someone came up with about spamming Juno's users with an email about exactly what their TOS allows...

    Juno is without an explicit cost, but nothing in life is free.

    Ah yes. True again. But Juno goes out of their way to hide the nefarious stuff in the legalese of their agreement. Nowhere on their website or in their advertizing materials do they even pay lip service to "Computational Software" or "You must keep your computer on 24/7 or we reserve the right to take it away from you, store it in our bunker in the middle of the pacific ocean, and charge you for the electricity and long-distance charges". Their advertrizing basically ammounts to "Free, easy email! Use us!"

    It's a stunning slap to the face in the name of "always read the fine print" though.

  • by edhall (10025) <slashdot@weirdnoise.com> on Friday February 02, 2001 @01:07AM (#462492) Homepage

    You or I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole, but there actually is a fair fraction of the public which doesn't care who knows where they browse, and which doesn't have any idea of the other risks. After all, many people don't mind their local drug store tracking their purchases through discount cards. And if purchase data helps the drugstore keep the things people buy in in stock and makes the ad flyers they receive more likely to have the stuff they want in them, why, that's just making a happier (if violated) customer.

    ISP's (and to a lesser extent, portals) can go even farther, and anticipate interest in particular products based on browsing behavior. Yet another step toward happy consumerdom: if they get good enough at their tracking, you'll never have to see an ad you aren't interested in. Joe consumer is supposed to enjoy that his privacy is being pimped to the highest bidder. And, sadly enough, there is evidence that this may indeed be so. (That doesn't mean that Juno will be able to actually pull off this marketer's wet dream, of course.)

    That said, the distributed-computing angle of this is actually pretty interesting as a way of generating income for Juno. It will be a lot easier for them, as an ISP, to administer this sort of system than for a stand-alone enterprise to do so. Yes, the security issues are mind-boggling, and the near-inevitable scandal that results will probably kill them (if nothing else does first). But it's an idea that will likely succeed at some point, even if Juno fails.

    -Ed
  • by coyote-san (38515) on Friday February 02, 2001 @08:20AM (#462493)
    The issue isn't how often you need to reboot, or how long it takes to come back up. It's why is it necessary AT ALL? This is the difference between availability (which allows support to take down systems for routine maintenance) and mean-time-to-failure (the most common measure of reliability).

    Excluding hardware problems, if a computer <b>requires</b> a reboot to avoid problems there's only two possible causes: either resources are being consumed and not released as appropriate (the biggest headache with Netscape), or coding errors are causing random corruption of data structures. Since Windows tends to "flake out" instead of announcing "resource not available," it sounds like it's random corruption of data structures.

    Nobody is stupid enough (I hope) to say that Unix is totally bug-free, but its architecture limits the damage a buggy application can do to others, and the system itself, so it's common to hear of heavily loaded systems running for several years without problem.

    On the other hand, a mostly idle Windows system will usually become unusable within a week. In practice, I've rarely seen a MIS department that didn't recommend a "preventative reboot" nightly, or at least every other night. This suggests that the code contains a tremendous number of very serious coding errors -- and there are very, very few products where a MTTF of a few days to a week is acceptable. Could you imagine using a refrigerator which had to be unpluggedand reach room temperature weekly, or else it might go beserk and either freeze the food rock-hard or heat up like an oven?
  • by joto (134244) on Friday February 02, 2001 @09:20AM (#462494)
    FBI don't install spyware on your computer. They install it on the ISP's so they can can monitor traffic.

    There is probably lots of stuff on most peoples computers that is not send around on the Internet (personal letters, job-related documents, etc). So I would say there is a great difference!

    Compare, hidden cameras are installed in most public areas, but most likely not in your bedroom (unless you are a pervert).

  • by LordArathres (244483) on Friday February 02, 2001 @12:41AM (#462495) Homepage
    I just read the whole policy and wow, they just keep on getting better.

    1. They can download stuff to your computer and make it do work.
    2. It works like a screen saver and you are not ALLOWED to disable it. You also cannot un-install Windows or they will simply kill you.
    3. They can make your computer call their servers to upload results and any other thing they find on your computer, because you wont know.
    4. They may require you to keep your computer on 24 hours a day, and oh by the way are NOT responsible for the electricity it consumes. Why should they be, you're stupid not to have read the policy in the first place.
    5. They are not responsible for any damages caused by your computer working on a problem while you are not on it. This will probably include very intensive Mathematical Calculations that I know a overclocked processor will just love.
    6. They can send someone to your house to turn your computer on if you leave it off. Why not. It would be funny. That same person can also connect your computer back to the phone line becuase you disconnected it because it was calling their servers 5 states away.
    7. They can all laugh at you for actually agreeing to this. Then having Jim win the office pool becasue he guessed right on the amount of people that never will read the agreement anyway.

    Finally Juno can do anything it damn well programs its software to do on your computer all in the name of Freedom from Paying for the NET!

    Come on People bend over and pay $20 a month for a real ISP, one that doesn't basically put an employee looking over your shoulder at your computer anytime you use it.

    I dont see how companies like this actually work.

    Lord Arathres
  • by chuqui (264912) <slash@c[ ]ui.com ['huq' in gap]> on Friday February 02, 2001 @12:27AM (#462496) Homepage
    There's no such thing as a free lunch.

    Guess what? Juno isn't free. it simply charges a different pound of flesh. And, as it keeps finding that it can't survive on what it's getting from you, it raises it's price. Only their price isn't cash.

    If this doesn't finally kill them off, I'll be amazed. I see it as a sign of desperation that they've finally hit this level of invasion to try to find ways to avoid actually charging money like everyone else.

    Juno is simply proving that putting it on the internet doesn't make it immune to business realities -- or Darwin.

  • by Zapd (29091) on Friday February 02, 2001 @12:59AM (#462497)
    ..and they expect that of windows systems? Bwuhaha.

    (sorry, couldn't resist)

    --
  • by ooze (307871) on Friday February 02, 2001 @12:50AM (#462498)
    You expressly permit and authorize Shell to (i) load to your car one or more pieces of technical devices (the "Driving Supporters") designed to perform actions, which may be unrelated to the driving of the car, on behalf of Shell (or on behalf of such third parties as may be authorized by Shell, subject to the Privacy Statement), (ii) run the Driving Supporters on your car to perform and store the results of such actions, and (iii) get such results to Shell Stations during a subsequent fueling, whether initiated by you in the course of using the Service or by the Driving Supporters as further described below. In connection with loading and running the Computational Software, Shell may require you to leave your car unlocked and running at all times, and may replace the stored radio channels that runs on car radio while the car is running. The radio channels installed by Shell, which may play advertisements or other shows chosen by Shell, is an integral part of the Driving Supporters and you agree not to take any action to disable or interfere with the operation of either the radio or any other component of the Driving Supporters. You agree that, as between you and Shell, you shall be responsible for any costs or expenses resulting from the continuous operation of your car, including without limitation any associated charges for gas, and that you shall have sole responsibility for any maintenance or technical issues that might result from such continuous operation. You agree that, as between you and Shell, Shell shall have sole rights to the results of any actions performed by the Driving Supporters, including without limitation any revenues or any property generated directly or indirectly as a result of such actions, without further compensation to you. If your usage of the car is infrequent, Shell's ability to obtain the results of completed actions may be impaired. Consequently, you expressly permit and authorize Shell to initiate an opening of your car and taking anything to Shells's Headquarter using a key you have previously attached to your car; Shell agrees that it shall exercise such right only to the extent necessary, as determined in Shell's sole discretion, to store the results of completed actions to Shell in a timely fashion; and you agree that, as between you and Shell, you shall be responsible for any costs and expenses (including without limitation any applicable transportation charges) resulting from the foregoing. Shell agrees that any device, baggage, or other materials loaded to your car in connection with the activities described in this Section 2.5 will comply with Shell's privacy policies, as reflected in the Privacy Statement. You agree that you will not attempt to examin any such devices, baggage, or other materials or transfer or disclose any such devices, baggage, or other materials, or the results of any such actions, to any third party. You acknowledge that your compliance with the requirements of this Section 2.5 may be considered by Shell to be an inseparable part of the Service, and that any interference with the operation of the Driving Suppoters (including, but not limited to, any failure to leave your car running at all times) may result in termination or limitation of your use of the refueling Service. You acknowledge that Section 6 of this Agreement shall expressly apply to the activities described in this Section 2.5.
  • by aznin (309986) on Friday February 02, 2001 @02:25AM (#462499)
    ... to read the legalese in these User Agreements carefully. I don't know about anyone else, but I often just click "I agree" to avoid having to read through 20 pages of badly written pseudo-English that mostly looks like it's an extremely verbose version of a copyright symbol.

    I'm getting slightly nervous here ... what have I agreed to so far?! Call my lawyer!
  • by rnturn (11092) on Friday February 02, 2001 @02:03AM (#462500)
    ``Or get that bobbing head bird to hit the keyboard like Homer Simpson did.''

    I actually proposed something like that in a department meeting held on April 1 back in 1980 (maybe 1981) so those who were running long simulations wouldn't get disconnected by the silly IBM terminal controller from the campus VM/CMS system. No keyboard activity for fifteen minutes and you got clobbered. (Tentative funding for the project was approved until initial project team discussions revealed that the only place where anyone could remember seeing one of the birds was at a Stuckey's on the Ohio turnpike and enthusiasm for the project waned quickly.)


    --

  • by Dracophile (140936) on Friday February 02, 2001 @01:16AM (#462501)
    You agree to the following:

    1. Service
    1.1. This contract is binding.
    1.2. But not on us.

    2. Your Obligations
    2.1. You give us the right to know anything about you that takes our fancy.
    2.2. Or about anyone else, for that matter.
    2.3. You cough up any connection charges. Notice how we keep this separate from paragraph 2.5.
    2.4. You agree to eat spam.
    2.5. pH33r u5! w3 @re 1337 h4x0r5. We will make your PC dial our POPs. They might even be local calls. W3 0wn j00r 5cr33n 54v3r. We want your pr0n. We wish to use your computer in a distributed processing scheme for our company's purposes.
    2.6. You acknowledge that the Service is provided only for personal use by you and members of your household, and not for corporate or excessive commercial use or for use by organizations or other groups of users. Unless they're us.
    2.7. You may or not get your email, our distributed processing requirements notwithstanding. We cannot plan or manage our servers, so there's no telling how long your mail's going to sit on our server.

    3. Content
    3.1. We can't possibly take any responsibility for or action over norty stuff floating about on the net. Unless you put it there. Or tried to.
    3.2. If you're stealing stuff, we don't even want to know about it.
    3.3. Oh, and we own your IP, too.

    4. Software License
    4.1. We'll even let you use the software by which we own you.
    4.2. Hell, we'll even let you inf^Hstall it on other peoples' PCs!
    4.3. Until you try to exercise your fair use rights.
    4.4. Or even export it.
    4.5. Or work for the guv'mint.
    4.6. We really do own you.

    5. Fees
    5.1. You even enjoy the privilege of paying for all of this.
    5.2. And there's just so many fun ways to do it!
    5.3. And for us to collect it.
    5.4. And, what's more, we'll just do it for you!
    5.5. But you still get to pay for non-free (beer) stuff.

    6. No Warranties
    6.1. No kidding.
    6.2. No, really!
    6.3. No warranties here.
    6.4. None here, either, no siree!

    7. Indemnification
    Nor responsibility, either.

    8. Termination
    8.1. We can cut you off at any time we like. Anything you put on our servers can no longer be accessed by you. Not that you ever owned it, anyway.
    8.2. If you don't like it, you can always leave. After you pay us.

    9. Miscellaneous
    9.1. Don't even think of trying to slime out of this contract.
    9.2. Put your lawyers away. If any part of this agreement is held to be unenforceable, we're going to enforce it anyway. We have more money than you.
    9.3. And bought the laws to protect us.

    10. For Quebec Residents Only
    Our legal staff can't speak French.


    --
  • by Sheeple Police (247465) on Friday February 02, 2001 @12:42AM (#462502)
    Will Juno users realize what they are agreeing to?

    My experience with Juno users is that they have been of two types. The first type is people who were dislocated from their previous ISP, typically AOL or Compuserve by their parents, and installed Juno to be able to get back online without their parents knowledge. The second type is of people who have no clue what this "Internet" thing is they keep hearing about, and they sure as gosh darn heck don't wanna have to pay, so they use a free server, and really don't even use it.

    Of course, I'm omitting the third type, which are skr1pt k1dd13s who want to think they are secure from tracking by using these free servers, but I don't really count them as people, but more as illiterate brutes ;-)

    In the first case, the kids don't care how they get online as long as they can get back to their chat/message boards/surfing/porn, and in the second case, they are too baffled by legalese to ever realize whats going on. As for the skr1pt k1dd13s, heck, let Microsoft get them for hacking their servers [yahoo.com] and stealing their source code [zdnet.co.uk], its no skin off my back to see those brats busted.

    I think the bigger question instead of "Do Juno users realize what they are agreeing to" is "Is this ethical? And more importantly, is this right?"

Hackers of the world, unite!

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